Irish Politics

[moses]

Are they really? The fact that we currently export a lot doesn't really mean anything in terms of maintaining our ability to produce for a worst case scenario. That was my point, at least.

We export mostly fancy stuff. The nuts and bolts of what ends up on the table is imported. We can't afford to eat a lot of what is produced here.


That's what I have found from reading, I'd like to know. My gut is that it's a lot to do with the national brand and political symbolism. I live rurally and only a fraction of the people are employed in agriculture but all they want in a political party is to lobby for farming.

I can't join the dots.

Edit - as a blow in I can't actually question any of this in public or I'd be back battling the M50 quick as a flash.

 

[RedC]

We export mostly fancy stuff. The nuts and bolts of what ends up on the table is imported. We can't afford to eat a lot of what is produced here.


That's what I have found from reading, I'd like to know. My gut is that it's a lot to do with the national brand and political symbolism. I live rurally and only a fraction of the people are employed in agriculture but all they want in a political party is to lobby for farming.

I can't join the dots.

I get what you're saying, my point is that it doesn't really undermine the initial point I was making. If we were no longer able to cheaply import basic items, we have the means of producing everything we need within the country. That is definitely worth something vs. other industries.

 

[Brophs]

We should give some of the farming money to the greyhound lads. Those poor feckers are on their uppers.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

We export mostly fancy stuff. The nuts and bolts of what ends up on the table is imported. We can't afford to eat a lot of what is produced here.


That's what I have found from reading, I'd like to know. My gut is that it's a lot to do with the national brand and political symbolism. I live rurally and only a fraction of the people are employed in agriculture but all they want in a political party is to lobby for farming.

I can't join the dots.

Edit - as a blow in I can't actually question any of this in public or I'd be back battling the M50 quick as a flash.

What I’ve always wondered is where all the money generated by farming ends up? Like you say, they’re not employing huge numbers of people. No farmer ever filled an office block with middle management taking home 50k salaries. Yet it’s a massive industry, generating billions of euros each year. All that cash has to end up accumulating somewhere. Where?

 

[moses]

I get what you're saying, my point is that it doesn't really undermine the initial point I was making. If we were no longer able to cheaply import basic items, we have the means of producing everything we need within the country. That is definitely worth something vs. other industries.

Absolutely, but if that is the reason we should be working towards repurposing it and modifying it not just pumping 2 billion a year into it for it to stand still. The amount of idle land, especially in the northwest where farmers are in essence paid to not produce is wild.

Years ago I asked why there were so many donkeys around here. I was told they counted as stock, and helped securing herd payments. Then they winked.

 

[moses]

What I’ve always wondered is where all the money generated by farming ends up? Like you say, they’re not employing huge numbers of people. No farmer ever filled an office block with middle management taking home 50k salaries. Yet it’s a massive industry, generating billions of euros each year. All that cash has to end up accumulating somewhere. Where?

No idea. In the farmers pockets?

They get 1.5 billion in direct cash payments and about half a billion in infrastructure grants.

That said not a lot of them are rich, and many of them have second jobs, so fundamentally I wonder what the fecking point of lots of it is.

I think with some of the small ones it's just to maintain the asset, which is basically personal wealth of a kind. The will farm a few sheep just to stay a farm.

 

[RedC]

Absolutely, but if that is the reason we should be working towards repurposing it and modifying it not just pumping 2 billion a year into it for it to stand still. The amount of idle land, especially in the northwest where farmers are in essence paid to not produce is wild.

Years ago I asked why there were so many donkeys around here. I was told they counted as stock, and helped securing herd payments. Then they winked.

I have very little faith in us ever stopping stuff like that happening, we are a nation of chancers, it's part of our core identity. This is why I struggle to ever compare us to more sensible countries on various topics.

 

[Raven]

A SF government will see an uptick in the activism and popularity on the right. I think that's inevitable.

The only hope is that they visibly help the lot of the struggling working classes to get them onside.

This is the thing. If the working class feel like they're being listened to and their problems addressed, the far right will fade back into obscurity.

 

[moses]

This is the thing. If the working class feel like they're being listened to and their problems addressed, the far right will fade back into obscurity.

Then we are looped into the other discussion here, over represented farmers and under represented working classes.

I think the lack of industrial revolution makes the working class identity and solidarity very tricky here, historically and as a result, now.

 

[moses]

I have very little faith in us ever stopping stuff like that happening, we are a nation of chancers, it's part of our core identity. This is why I struggle to ever compare us to more sensible countries on various topics.

This boils my blood. Makes all the discussion basically irrelevant.

I'm not saying you're wrong btw.

 

[Massive Spanner]

We should give some of the farming money to the greyhound lads. Those poor feckers are on their uppers.

Seriously though, it really boils my piss that the government are still willing to fund that and horse racing in 2024. I mean horse racing, I can understand to an extent as it's a global sport and benefits the economy, and we've done well from it, but what the feck is the point in giving all those millions to greyhound racing? It's horrible.

 

[moses]

Seriously though, it really boils my piss that the government are still willing to fund that and horse racing in 2024. I mean horse racing, I can understand to an extent as it's a global sport and benefits the economy, and we've done well from it, but what the feck is the point in giving all those millions to greyhound racing? It's horrible.

Add private schools into the mix.

 

[RedC]

This boils my blood. Makes all the discussion basically irrelevant.

I'm not saying you're wrong btw.

Yeah it is very frustrating, I would never not vote for a party or not support an initiative etc. because of that thought, but it's always there in the back of the mind. Example upon example gets thrown in your face on a daily basis to back it up as well.

 

[Raven]

Then we are looped into the other discussion here, over represented farmers and under represented working classes.

I think the lack of industrial revolution makes the working class identity and solidarity very tricky here, historically and as a result, now.

You're absolutely right, no industrial revolution means no proper left wing movement. Dublin has some industry and is the only area of the country with any meaningful left wing support. You're spot on about farmers, I grew up in rural Ireland and gaming the system is a hobby to those people. They don't have to pay for their kids to go to college, they run all personal expenses through the farm and then they love to go on about hard they have it. The only sympathy I have for farmers is that they work long shifts at certain points of the year.

 

[Raven]

Miriam O’Callaghan being the moderator was pure recklessness by RTE. I thought she was clearly biased.

She very clearly was. The whole thing was a shitty stitch up.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

No idea. In the farmers pockets?

They get 1.5 billion in direct cash payments and about half a billion in infrastructure grants.

That said not a lot of them are rich, and many of them have second jobs, so fundamentally I wonder what the fecking point of lots of it is.

I think with some of the small ones it's just to maintain the asset, which is basically personal wealth of a kind. The will farm a few sheep just to stay a farm.

So there’s loads of farmers out there, absolutely rolling in it? I wouldn’t rule that out. Can still remember Black Pearl and his fat stacks of 50s buried around his farm. They’re fecking masters at playing the beal bocht, mind you.

 

[moses]

She very clearly was. The whole thing was a shitty stitch up.

None of the stakeholders want SF. They have spoken to them and PBP like dogs while basically kneeling in front of pricks like Michael Noonan.

Paul Murphy was basically attacked on the Late Late Show a few years ago, it was an utter disgrace.

 

[moses]

So there’s loads of farmers out there, absolutely rolling in it? I wouldn’t rule that out. Can still remember Black Pearl and his fat stacks of 50s buried around his farm. They’re fecking masters at playing the beal bocht, mind you.

In a nutshell.

 

[diarm]

In a nutshell.

If we’re spending €1.5 to €2b a year on farmers subsidies, and that makes up 70% of farmers income, within an industry that generates almost €20b a year in exports alone.

How are people looking at those figures and suggesting it’s farmers who are the greedy chancers?

 

[moses]

If we’re spending €1.5 to €2b a year on farmers subsidies, and that makes up 70% of farmers income, within an industry that generates almost €20b a year in exports alone.

How are people looking at those figures and suggesting it’s farmers who are the greedy chancers?

I'm more saying that the industry is not fit for purpose. I know farmers with second jobs. They almost feign farming to get herd payments and subsidies all the while sitting on land. So we are in lots of cases financing the upkeep of personal assets.

Basically on a pure accounting level I don't understand the industry and why it has such sway in our politics.

 

[RedC]

So there’s loads of farmers out there, absolutely rolling in it? I wouldn’t rule that out. Can still remember Black Pearl and his fat stacks of 50s buried around his farm. They’re fecking masters at playing the beal bocht, mind you.

He was a drug dealer

 

[diarm]

I'm more saying that the industry is not fit for purpose. I know farmers with second jobs. They almost feign farming to get herd payments and subsidies all the while sitting on land. So we are in lots of cases financing the upkeep of personal assets.

Basically on a pure accounting level I don't understand the industry and why it has such sway in our politics.

Because the massively profitable Agri-businesses keep the politicians in their pocket. Same as the bankers and the property developers.

Blaming individual farmers for a broken system makes as much sense as blaming the girl on the desk in your local AIB for the financial crisis.

 

[BD]

So there’s loads of farmers out there, absolutely rolling in it? I wouldn’t rule that out. Can still remember Black Pearl and his fat stacks of 50s buried around his farm. They’re fecking masters at playing the beal bocht, mind you.

He was a dickhead though. There are similarly farmers who are just about getting by - my uncle for example. Tough life and hours, and has very little to show for it in terms of wealth. (Obviously anecdotal and I've no idea how the average farmer is doing, just the mention of Black Pearl triggered me)

 

[moses]

Because the massively profitable Agri-businesses keep the politicians in their pocket. Same as the bankers and the property developers.

Blaming individual farmers for a broken system makes as much sense as blaming the girl on the desk in your local AIB for the financial crisis.

I'm not blaming them. And that's a poor analogy. The equivalent to the person on the front desk would be a farm hand.

Anyway I'm saying it's almost a pointless endeavour and expensive to the taxpayer.

And the agri business is not that profitable either in terms of the influence and subsidies.

The total exports figures include forestry and fishing as far as I'm aware.

Heres a list from 2017 of our top 10 exports. In USD , so our tenth largest export is cancelled out by the subsidies?

1. Pharmaceuticals: US$38.2 billion (28.3% of total exports)
2. Organic chemicals: $23.8 billion (17.7%)
3. Optical, technical, medical apparatus: $13.8 billion (10.2%)
4. Electrical machinery, equipment: $9 billion (6.7%)
5. Perfumes, cosmetics: $8.4 billion (6.2%)
6. Machinery including computers: $7.4 billion (5.5%)
7. Aircraft, spacecraft: $4.8 billion (3.5%)
8. Other chemical goods: $3.7 billion (2.8%)
9. Meat: $3.5 billion (2.6%)
10. Dairy, eggs, honey: $2.7 billion (2%)

 

[moses]

He was a dickhead though. There are similarly farmers who are just about getting by - my uncle for example. Tough life and hours, and has very little to show for it in terms of wealth. (Obviously anecdotal and I've no idea how the average farmer is doing, just the mention of Black Pearl triggered me)

100% on an individual level it can be a fecking tough slog.

 

[Raven]

Something I haven't seen mentioned in here is that the government is currently spending an insane amount of money through the HAP scheme and paying for emergency accomodation. Where does all this money go? Into the hands of private landlords. Same as the 800 euro a month (per person) that the government have been handing over to landlords through the Ukrainian refugees. These guys take us for absolute mugs and every election cycle, we prove them right.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

If we’re spending €1.5 to €2b a year on farmers subsidies, and that makes up 70% of farmers income, within an industry that generates almost €20b a year in exports alone.

How are people looking at those figures and suggesting it’s farmers who are the greedy chancers?

So where does all the money from those €20b a year exports end up? That’s what I don’t get. In any other industry you assume it’s going to shareholders and fat cat CEOs. So who’s profiting from farming? Genuinely curious because my uncle was a farmer and he definitely wasn’t making much money from his farm.

 

[Raulduke]

Something I haven't seen mentioned in here is that the government is currently spending an insane amount of money through the HAP scheme and paying for emergency accomodation. Where does all this money go? Into the hands of private landlords. Same as the 800 euro a month (per person) that the government have been handing over to landlords through the Ukrainian refugees. These guys take us for absolute mugs and every election cycle, we prove them right.

I've heard more people talking about this locally here in Donegal recently than mica.

 

[moses]

So where does all the money from those €20b a year exports end up? That’s what I don’t get. In any other industry you assume it’s going to shareholders and fat cat CEOs. So who’s profiting from farming? Genuinely curious because my uncle was a farmer and he definitely wasn’t making much money from his farm.

Yep. If the 2 billion is to subsidise their income, isn't that basically an expensive dole? And while I'm not opposed to the idea of protecting a culture and a way of life, let's call it that.

Like I have said over and over lots have second jobs and the farms are producing feck all. We're just paying for the upkeep and maintenance of private property.

 

[moses]

Something I haven't seen mentioned in here is that the government is currently spending an insane amount of money through the HAP scheme and paying for emergency accomodation. Where does all this money go? Into the hands of private landlords. Same as the 800 euro a month (per person) that the government have been handing over to landlords through the Ukrainian refugees. These guys take us for absolute mugs and every election cycle, we prove them right.

It was mentioned in relation to the Finnish and Danish housing first policies. Cheaper to fix it than perpetuate it.

 

[Oranges038]

So there’s loads of farmers out there, absolutely rolling in it? I wouldn’t rule that out. Can still remember Black Pearl and his fat stacks of 50s buried around his farm. They’re fecking masters at playing the beal bocht, mind you.

Yep. If the 2 billion is to subsidise their income, isn't that basically an expensive dole? And while I'm not opposed to the idea of protecting a culture and a way of life, let's call it that.

Like I have said over and over lots have second jobs and the farms are producing feck all. We're just paying for the upkeep and maintenance of private property.

You know you can go online to see how much an individual farmer gets in subs. So if you know one, look them up. Under the EU Cap programme, they have to publish the recipients and amounts received.

In this day and age anything less than 200 or 300 acres is really just a waste of time and money not worth farming fulltime. Most will have second jobs or have 2 people working along with the farming being carried out in the morning or evening.

That's not to say that it isn't just a way of life for a lot of people and while they don't have much and don't make much money out of it. In a way they do still contribute to the overall food sector even if they only make a small amount out of it.

 

[moses]

You know you can go online to see how much an individual farmer gets in subs. So if you know one, look them up. Under the EU Cap programme, they have to publish the recipients and amounts received.

In this day and age anything less than 200 or 300 acres is really just a waste of time and money not worth farming fulltime. Most will have second jobs or have 2 people working along with the farming being carried out in the morning or evening.

That's not to say that it isn't just a way of life for a lot of people and while they don't have much and don't make much money out of it. In a way they do still contribute to the overall food sector even if they only make a small amount out of it.

Not many farms in this neck of the woods on that scale or anywhere near it.

100 acres is a still a good lump of personal wealth though. The equivalent wage in a non farmer is not underpinned by this sizeable security.

 

[neverdie]

I can't join the dots.

CAP seems to be where most of the subsidy money is coming from. An EU initiative. It's centered around food security, or was, but now has moved into areas such as wilding and greening. It accounts for 1.2bn of the subsidies farmers receive at any rate.

https://greenfiscalpolicy.org/land-...ncourage-irish-farmers-to-cut-back-on-nature/

The slice of the pie for Irish farmers was worth almost €1.2 billion in direct payments last year – these are called “Pillar 1″ funds and are 100% financed from the EU budget. There was also an additional €604 million in rural development money, known as “Pillar 2″ in 2020, co-financed with Irish state funds.


For many farmers, the direct farm payment underpins their income from the land. In 2020, public money made up to 157% of income levels on cattle rearing farms, 103% on sheep farms and 79% in tillage. Public money also flows into the dairy industry, with the basic payment accounting for 80% of all payments received across Ireland’s 16,146 dairy farms in 2020, according to Teagasc.

Seems hard to reconcile the fact that on the one hand, we export 17 billion euros worth of agricultural foodstuffs and on the other the statistics above. But of the 2bn or so in subsidies, it is the EU itself which is providing most of it.

Seems to me, and I'm just guessing, that it's going to be a very uneven experience. The very large farms are not going to have the same lived experience as the person/family with 60 hectares, or even half that.

 

[moses]

I'm not anti farming at all. I'd love to see us produce more food and make organic fresh food with feck all air miles the norm.

I have an acre and I grow things and it's fecking all consuming and sometimes all in vain.

I just wonder if it'd not feasible should we be rethinking the use of the land?

 

[unchanged_lineup]

In a nutshell.

Need to go and find his fields. I think I'm possibly in his locality now.

 

[Raven]

I've heard more people talking about this locally here in Donegal recently than mica.

Because it's a disgrace. It's one of the policies that has seen the far right absolutely explode here. Why on earth should anyone feel like they should work a full time job to pay rent and put food on the table when a group of people have come here, had their rent paid, received full dole and been able to work on top of it all? I'm about as left wing as you'll get and I actually truly believe in open borders (eventually) but the treatment the Ukrainians have gotten is just unbelievable whilst Irish people are struggling to make end meat.

It was mentioned in relation to the Finnish and Danish housing first policies. Cheaper to fix it than perpetuate it.

Exactly, it would be much cheaper in the medium-long term to just set up a state builder and build/renovate what we need. We should also be introducing an extremely punitive tax regime on property speculators, we have more empty homes in this country than we have homeless people.

 

[unchanged_lineup]

I'm not anti farming at all. I'd love to see us produce more food and make organic fresh food with feck all air miles the norm.

I have an acre and I grow things and it's fecking all consuming and sometimes all in vain.

I just wonder if it'd not feasible should we be rethinking the use of the land?

We grow what we can too. A greenhouse was a great purchase. Loads of tomatoes this year and last year.

 

[moses]

Need to go and find his fields. I think I'm possibly in his locality now.

I have a good shovel and not much to do today.

 

[moses]

We grow what we can too. A greenhouse was a great purchase. Loads of tomatoes this year and last year.

My tomatoes won't ripen up here in cloud land. Courgettes, cucumbers, chillies, garlic, beets, onions, brassicas, kale and lettuce are all quite doable.

 

[unchanged_lineup]

I have a good shovel and not much to do today.

Watch out for Hurleyshanks.