Irish Politics

Also we are much richer than Finland.
It's ridiculous how rich this nation is. And yet how terrible its housing and healthcare "institutions" are. Literally the richest, per capita, nation on the planet (Luxembourg sometimes takes top spot) and facing an inter-generational crisis in housing and home ownership because successive governments have just failed entirely.

Ireland bucks certain trends because of how rich it is. Even more ammo against the FFG governments.
 
It's ridiculous how rich this nation is. And yet how terrible its housing and healthcare "institutions" are. Literally the richest, per capita, nation on the planet (Luxembourg sometimes takes top spot) and facing an inter-generational crisis in housing and home ownership because successive governments have just failed entirely.

Ireland bucks certain trends because of how rich it is. Even more ammo against the FFG governments.
Ireland is rich but only recently. Up until the 90's we were incredibly poor by European standards. Countries like Finland have been rich for 150 years, continuously building their public services since. We caught up to all those countries when it comes to all the usual issues a developed country faces but without all the years and years of building those vital infrastructures and public services to back it up. The first metro line in Helsinki opened in 1982, now it's going to cost us 15bn or something to build our first one, if it ever happens.
 
Ireland is rich but only recently. Up until the 90's we were incredibly poor by European standards. Countries like Finland have been rich for 150 years, continuously building their public services since. We caught up to all those countries when it comes to all the usual issues a developed country faces but without all the years and years of building those vital infrastructures and public services to back it up. The first metro line in Helsinki opened in 1982, now it's going to cost us 15bn or something to build our first one, if it ever happens.
Yeah, a good point regarding cumulative wealth. I remember the 90s. Basically a "second" or "third" world economy. We tend not to use those terms anymore but that's what it was like. No real infrastructure outside of Dublin. And if you lived outside of Dublin, getting anywhere was a nightmare (even if you lived within Dublin I suppose getting to rural areas was akin to a quest: depended on how likely it was you'd stop someone who had a clue about directions).

Still, it's been a couple of decades at this point. The failures are what they are. But point taken.
 
I thought the economy, jobs and wealth situation was pretty good in the mid and late 90's. Maybe due to the contrast with the 80's as much as it actually being strong? I dont think we've used the wealth well or sensibly and we're really long overdue a change in tack which a lot of parties just aren't equipped to deliver. Its not just FFG, im sceptical of a lot of the others too.
 
Yeah, a good point regarding cumulative wealth. I remember the 90s. Basically a "second" or "third" world economy. We tend not to use those terms anymore but that's what it was like. No real infrastructure outside of Dublin. And if you lived outside of Dublin, getting anywhere was a nightmare (even if you lived within Dublin I suppose getting to rural areas was akin to a quest: depended on how likely it was you'd stop someone who had a clue about directions).

Still, it's been a couple of decades at this point. The failures are what they are. But point taken.
Not that I'm excusing how shitty our infrastructure is, but if you compare our public transport in Dublin now with the early 90's it really is night and day.

I really, really wish we built more Luas lines when times were good. The whole thing cost €900m! Imagine building a single Luas line for anywhere close to that now? Not a chance.
 
I thought the economy, jobs and wealth situation was pretty good in the mid and late 90's. Maybe due to the contrast with the 80's as much as it actually being strong? I dont think we've used the wealth well or sensibly and we're really long overdue a change in tack which a lot of parties just aren't equipped to deliver. Its not just FFG, im sceptical of a lot of the others too.

It picked up mid 90s and the Celtic Tiger was starting to roar by the end of them. I don’t think that changes his point that we’re basically a rich country with the infrastructure of a poor country. Which has impacts all over the place. For example we need to build a shit load of new houses in Dublin but our infrastructure (water, public transport etc) is already creaking at the seams just supplying what we already have.
 
Not that I'm excusing how shitty our infrastructure is, but if you compare our public transport in Dublin now with the early 90's it really is night and day.

I really, really wish we built more Luas lines when times were good. The whole thing cost €900m! Imagine building a single Luas line for anywhere close to that now? Not a chance.
Public transport is worse than the 80's where im living funnily enough. Mostly because of traffic i suppose but there was more buses then than now and it took a fraction of the time.
Has improved markedly in the last 2 years or so with a couple more bus services to the point its kind of debatable. But traffic in the area has nosedived. It used to take about 2 minutes maybe to get onto the N7. It takes 40 mins now in rush hour (with rush hour being about 3 hours long either side because of schools and creches).
So yeah, it might technically have improved but the overall situation certainly hasn't.
 
Not that I'm excusing how shitty our infrastructure is, but if you compare our public transport in Dublin now with the early 90's it really is night and day.
As someone who used it to get from Tallght to Drimnagh for school from 86 to 91 I can verify that. Got worse as I got older, by 6th year I would have to walk up to 2 miles toward town to get on a bus as they would all be full by the time they got to Drimnagh.
 
Public transport is worse than the 80's where im living funnily enough. Mostly because of traffic i suppose but there was more buses then than now and it took a fraction of the time.
Has improved markedly in the last 2 years or so with a couple more bus services to the point its kind of debatable. But traffic in the area has nosedived. It used to take about 2 minutes maybe to get onto the N7. It takes 40 mins now in rush hour (with rush hour being about 3 hours long either side because of schools and creches).
So yeah, it might technically have improved but the overall situation certainly hasn't.
Yeah I guess Dublin has basically doubled in size since the 80's and the urban planning by the council has been terrible so no surprises there. I can only attest to when I first went there in 05 vs right before I left last year and the overall services felt much better, but as you say, traffic in certain areas absolutely sucked balls.
 
It picked up mid 90s and the Celtic Tiger was starting to roar by the end of them. I don’t think that changes his point that we’re basically a rich country with the infrastructure of a poor country. Which has impacts all over the place. For example we need to build a shit load of new houses in Dublin but our infrastructure (water, public transport etc) is already creaking at the seams just supplying what we already have.

Tangential I know but we already have houses built.

"The 2011 Census lists the number of empty homes to be around 230,000 (excluding the 60,000 holiday homes), around 26% of which are apartments,"

This bugs me a lot.
 
Yeah I guess Dublin has basically doubled in size since the 80's and the urban planning by the council has been terrible so no surprises there. I can only attest to when I first went there in 05 vs right before I left last year and the overall services felt much better, but as you say, traffic in certain areas absolutely sucked balls.

Yep, but still, the planning was shocking. The M50 had traffic jams from day one because they didn't factor in enough of an increase in cars from planning to opening.

The Red Cow Junction was closed and reconstructed almost immediately (from memory - could have been years)
 
Yep, but still, the planning was shocking. The M50 had traffic jams from day one because they didn't factor in enough of an increase in cars from planning to opening.

The Red Cow Junction was closed and reconstructed almost immediately (from memory - could have been years)
it's nice to live in a county where you can get basically anywhere in 10 minutes. It was such a struggle to go anywhere in Dublin, making sure you left when traffic wasn't bad, or when there was actually parking available. It honestly felt impossible to go anywhere and not commit half a day to it.
 
it's nice to live in a county where you can get basically anywhere in 10 minutes. It was such a struggle to go anywhere in Dublin, making sure you left when traffic wasn't bad, or when there was actually parking available. It honestly felt impossible to go anywhere and not commit half a day to it.

Yep, as soon as I had the kids I had to buy a car and as soon as I bought a car I got the feck out.
 
Yeah I guess Dublin has basically doubled in size since the 80's and the urban planning by the council has been terrible so no surprises there. I can only attest to when I first went there in 05 vs right before I left last year and the overall services felt much better, but as you say, traffic in certain areas absolutely sucked balls.
The tidal wave that is tallaght is sweeping past us at the moment. They've actively avoided any planning or investment for the entirety of the celtic tiger era. Streets smelled of piss during initial wave of lockdown because it was built to deal with about a quarter of the houses and everyone being at home overloaded it basically. They've upgraded it recently so it only occasionally smells like a sewer. Its pretty pathetic.
 
it's nice to live in a county where you can get basically anywhere in 10 minutes. It was such a struggle to go anywhere in Dublin, making sure you left when traffic wasn't bad, or when there was actually parking available. It honestly felt impossible to go anywhere and not commit half a day to it.

From a traffic perspective, covid was the best thing to ever happen to Dublin. It's been basically grand ever since. Only very very rarely get the full on traffic nightmare that we got used to before the mass move to WFH.
 
From a traffic perspective, covid was the best thing to ever happen to Dublin. It's been basically grand ever since. Only very very rarely get the full on traffic nightmare that we got used to before the mass move to WFH.
Its felt pretty bad recently. Christmas is always a total pain in the balls though.
 
Its felt pretty bad recently. Christmas is always a total pain in the balls though.
You sound like you live out Tallaght way. South west Dublin never had the same standard of Public transport as south Dublin.

Cork street was barely wide enough for two cars until they revamped the whole thing in the 90s and that was the main artery to Tallaght. Then you had to navigate the fecking bohereen that was the Greenhills Road, which still has no fecking footpath.
 
The tidal wave that is tallaght is sweeping past us at the moment. They've actively avoided any planning or investment for the entirety of the celtic tiger era. Streets smelled of piss during initial wave of lockdown because it was built to deal with about a quarter of the houses and everyone being at home overloaded it basically. They've upgraded it recently so it only occasionally smells like a sewer. Its pretty pathetic.

Tallaght is and always was a fecking disaster. That said it's infinitely better now that say the mid 80s. They built literally thousands of houses in the 70s and thought the social progress of the previous three decades would continue so we didn't need local shops as we'd all have cars that we could drive to the massive American style mall that they didn't build for another 20 years. Which was fine because by 1980 nobody had a job so they couldn't afford to go to the shops anyway.
 
From a traffic perspective, covid was the best thing to ever happen to Dublin. It's been basically grand ever since. Only very very rarely get the full on traffic nightmare that we got used to before the mass move to WFH.
Was pretty bad again right before I left in 2023, with the push back to office it seems really shit again, no? I'm also assuming a good chunk more people live in the greater Dublin area now than early 2020.

In fairness though it has helped, I remember I'd be getting a train from Castleknock at peak time and I'd be pushing into people to try get into the door, before I left you could easily get a standing spot with a bit of space. Heaven in comparison.
 
Tallaght is and always was a fecking disaster. That said it's infinitely better now that say the mid 80s. They built literally thousands of houses in the 70s and thought the social progress of the previous three decades would continue so we didn't need local shops as we'd all have cars that we could drive to the massive American style mall that they didn't build for another 20 years. Which was fine because by 1980 nobody had a job so they couldn't afford to go to the shops anyway.
It'd be hard for it to top the 90's but honestly they've just pushed the problems to the fringes and are repeating the same mistakes there. Citywest is fast becoming a total car crash and it can be seen coming from a mile away.
 
It'd be hard for it to top the 90's but honestly they've just pushed the problems to the fringes and are repeating the same mistakes there. Citywest is fast becoming a total car crash and it can be seen coming from a mile away.
What's the story with Citywest? Too many entry level houses and apartments? Are there not good facilities like shops and the Luas?

My folks still live just outside the village in Tallaght. Much less horrific than the estate I grew up in, behind where the hospital is now.

My family have lived in Tallaght my whole life apart from 2 years in the mid 80s when we moved to Australia to get the feck out. The poverty and outrageous levels of unemployment were made all much worse by the vigilantes that formed and manned roadblocks in the estate to keep the travellers out.
 
Was pretty bad again right before I left in 2023, with the push back to office it seems really shit again, no? I'm also assuming a good chunk more people live in the greater Dublin area now than early 2020.

In fairness though it has helped, I remember I'd be getting a train from Castleknock at peak time and I'd be pushing into people to try get into the door, before I left you could easily get a standing spot with a bit of space. Heaven in comparison.

Honestly not too bad these last couple of years. Combination of WFH and (I think) staggered start times. I mean, it’s still heavy twice a day but nowhere near where it was a few years back. It had got to a point where I was actually wondering if we were approaching grid lock but that’s a distant memory now. No matter how bad it is you tend to keep moving.
 
You sound like you live out Tallaght way. South west Dublin never had the same standard of Public transport as south Dublin.

Cork street was barely wide enough for two cars until they revamped the whole thing in the 90s and that was the main artery to Tallaght. Then you had to navigate the fecking bohereen that was the Greenhills Road, which still has no fecking footpath.

A road that is all too familiar to anyone from south county Dublin that sat their driving test in the 1990s.
 
Honestly not too bad these last couple of years. Combination of WFH and (I think) staggered start times. I mean, it’s still heavy twice a day but nowhere near where it was a few years back. It had got to a point where I was actually wondering if we were approaching grid lock but that’s a distant memory now. No matter how bad it is you tend to keep moving.
Do you have to use the M50 or do you stay inside the ring of despair?
 
fecking insane the amount of traffic that road saw.

I cycled it to school. Once.

It was terrifying. I did my driving test aged 17, in the test centre on that road. Failed it badly and realised the only way I could get back to Dun Laoghaire was by driving. As an unaccompanied learner driver. Who was none too sure which direction home was.
 
It was terrifying. I did my driving test aged 17, in the test centre on that road. Failed it badly and realised the only way I could get back to Dun Laoghaire was by driving. As an unaccompanied learner driver. Who was none too sure which direction home was.
It's even worse now with bigger cars I'd say but, yep I avoided it when learning to drive, went via Terenure instead.
 
Not that I'm excusing how shitty our infrastructure is, but if you compare our public transport in Dublin now with the early 90's it really is night and day.

I really, really wish we built more Luas lines when times were good. The whole thing cost €900m! Imagine building a single Luas line for anywhere close to that now? Not a chance.
On the point of infrastructure, if we just maintained and upgraded what the Brits left us we would've been in good condition, there was trains everywhere, trams, instead successive governments got rid of railway lines, just take Cork to youghal, that was for rid of in the 60s, recently they put a Greenway on a stretch of the old line, this area is now a massive commuter area for work, they are putting a tram from the train station to UCC and MUT which would include a few IDAs on the path.
 
On the point of infrastructure, if we just maintained and upgraded what the Brits left us we would've been in good condition, there was trains everywhere, trams, instead successive governments got rid of railway lines, just take Cork to youghal, that was for rid of in the 60s, recently they put a Greenway on a stretch of the old line, this area is now a massive commuter area for work, they are putting a tram from the train station to UCC and MUT which would include a few IDAs on the path.

Dismantling the trains was nuts. There are unused tracks all over South Sligo and Mayo and North Galway.

I have an old map of the railroads here, it was quite an impressive network.
 
Dismantling the trains was nuts. There are unused tracks all over South Sligo and Mayo and North Galway.

I have an old map of the railroads here, it was quite an impressive network.
Absolutely, just think how handy it would've been for the green initiative now, and tourism, just had a Google of that map and there was trains going everywhere.
 
What's the story with Citywest? Too many entry level houses and apartments? Are there not good facilities like shops and the Luas?

My folks still live just outside the village in Tallaght. Much less horrific than the estate I grew up in, behind where the hospital is now.

My family have lived in Tallaght my whole life apart from 2 years in the mid 80s when we moved to Australia to get the feck out. The poverty and outrageous levels of unemployment were made all much worse by the vigilantes that formed and manned roadblocks in the estate to keep the travellers out.
No facilities. Its just houses. They keep putting international protection applicants in the same area but do silly shit like put russians next door to ukranians and so on (not literally but the actual examples are probably worse). Citywest Hotel is basically a refugee centre, probably moving more through its doors than anywhere else in the country. There's bored kids hanging around McDonalds at 11pm + basically giving grief to everyone they meet and abusing anyone who looks different with the most wretched, racist abuse. They wander down to outside the hotel sometimes to pick fights and wind up in knife fights in the middle of a busy road.
They were walking a tightrope for a long time and it just feels like they've fallen off and lost control and things are getting really out of hand there.
 
Dismantling the trains was nuts. There are unused tracks all over South Sligo and Mayo and North Galway.

I have an old map of the railroads here, it was quite an impressive network.

A lot of the stuff early Irish governments did in the beginning lacked foresight, easy to say now. But there was a lot of resentment towards English infrastructure but also cars and buses were seen as the future of transport. Improving the road network was more important than maintaining rail and tram networks in the city.

But then you also had the attacks on the rail system during the civil war and with WW2 came with price increases and scacrity of coal, that made train travel unreliable and people moved away from it.

Then you had 3 or 4 decades of little to no investment in the actual network and most of them ended up being closed.

Rail network over 100 years ago

3579887_1c243b0359ad3fae7e6c188b1e9f9ed2_t.jpg


Today

Ireland-map.jpg

I assme the road network will be the opposite.
 
No facilities. Its just houses. They keep putting international protection applicants in the same area but do silly shit like put russians next door to ukranians and so on (not literally but the actual examples are probably worse). Citywest Hotel is basically a refugee centre, probably moving more through its doors than anywhere else in the country. There's bored kids hanging around McDonalds at 11pm + basically giving grief to everyone they meet and abusing anyone who looks different with the most wretched, racist abuse. They wander down to outside the hotel sometimes to pick fights and wind up in knife fights in the middle of a busy road.
They were walking a tightrope for a long time and it just feels like they've fallen off and lost control and things are getting really out of hand there.
feck. That sounds really grim.

Is it social housing or are there people paying mortgages in the middle of that?
 
It's ridiculous how rich this nation is. And yet how terrible its housing and healthcare "institutions" are. Literally the richest, per capita, nation on the planet (Luxembourg sometimes takes top spot) and facing an inter-generational crisis in housing and home ownership because successive governments have just failed entirely.

Ireland bucks certain trends because of how rich it is. Even more ammo against the FFG governments.
The economy is very much propped up by US corporations and the figures are highly misleading. Even the Irish government don't use GDP to measure its economy.

It just goes to highlight how "growth" doesn't necessarily mean an improvement in living standards or quality of life.
 
The economy is very much propped up by US corporations and the figures are highly misleading. Even the Irish government don't use GDP to measure its economy.

It just goes to highlight how "growth" doesn't necessarily mean an improvement in living standards or quality of life.
Conversely it often means the opposite and a wealth gap develops.

A lot of it is corporate private sector and if no use unless you tax them well...
 
feck. That sounds really grim.

Is it social housing or are there people paying mortgages in the middle of that?
Both. There's probably good and bad streets and area's. A lot of rental stuff too.