How should United reform itself over the next few years?

Tyrion

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By all accounts, the club was heavily based around SAF while he was in charge and no one else seems to be up to the job. In future, we won't be able to have one coach for +10 years so the club needs to be able to handle transition from one manager to the next. Basically, I'd like to see us try and emulate the Bayern Munich model as they're the closest comparison to us.

What changes do you think should be made to United and how the club is organised to ensure success over the next few decades? I don't mean small changes like "Drop Rooney", but big, long term changes to the structure of the club.
 
A good start would be getting Woodward away from football matters, and bringing in a DoF.
 
- DoF.
- more investment should be spent on the academy especially stadium and recruitment.
- having a consistent footballing brand (why the hell the first team plays so different to the U21s?).Managers will have different approaches but the "identity" should remain.
- broaden up our scouting network.The current network seems very limited in some regions for example Spain and Africa for the youth players and we're relying too much on the likes of Kershaw for youth scouting.
- expanding the affiliation club options.It's always more guaranteed for the loanees to be played at a club that has connection to us.A top-flight Dutch club like what Chelsea did could be a good start, and we need a close-tied Championship club like Hull/PNE in the past as well.
- more aggressive in poaching good talents (not just players but coaches,scouts,... and other positions) from smaller club.We seem to act too much like a nice guy in that regard.
 
khoazany said:
- DoF.
- more investment should be spent on the academy especially stadium and recruitment.
- having a consistent footballing brand (why the hell the first team plays so different to the U21s?).Managers will have different approaches but the "identity" should remain.
- broaden up our scouting network.We seem very limited in some regions for example Spain and Africa for the youth players.
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Sounds perfect.

The last two points are eye-openers. Didn't know that was the case. How does the U21's play differently from the first team?
 
Baxter said:
A good start would be getting Woodward away from football matters, and bringing in a DoF.
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Absolutely. Managers don't seem to stay that long anymore, so we need a smart person in charge to hire managers and make transfer decisions or at least negotiations. Someone who can get along with different managers too.

Off the top of my head., I'd say the teams with good transfer + managing hire records to steal a DOF from are:

Dortmund - Klopp and Tuchel good hires, lots of great transfers

Southampton - Poch was a great hire and Koeman has an ugly record but has done well until this month. Bertrand, Mane, Pelle, Van Dijk, Clyne and Wanyama all great buys and they just seem to make logical moves, like pairing the mobile, aggressive and defensive Wanyama with a deep playmaking CM in Clasie.

Atletico Madrid - A lot of academy development here, but some great young players have been bought (Gimenez, Griezmann, Carrasco, Correa) and some fine deals as well (Gabi, Tiago, Godin, Filipe Luis) over the last few years.

FA - Dan Ashworth - People seemed to think he was a genius at West Brom. Don't know how deserved that was.




Bayern - Is there a talented #2 or #3 here we can poach to run things?

Spurs - Is Levy relying on someone smart we can poach?
 
amolbhatia50k said:
Sounds perfect.

The last two points are eye-openers. Didn't know that was the case. How does the U21's play differently from the first team?
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I've edited my post.

U21s is much more flexible tactically due to the lack of balance in personnel but generally they are very fluid in interchanging positions, playing one-twos etc and players usually run a lot.If you're a passenger Warren Joyce will curse you into death.

I'm not saying whether it's better than the first team but generally I can't think of a footballing identity at our club at the moment and that's the problem unless you want to be one of the clubs that only rely on superstars to win trophies (and there's absolutely no guarantee that we can attract more superstars to the team than our opponents with the way the club is going)
 
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khoazany said:
- DoF.
- more investment should be spent on the academy especially stadium and recruitment.
- having a consistent footballing brand (why the hell the first team plays so different to the U21s?).Managers will have different approaches but the "identity" should remain.
- broaden up our scouting network.The current network seems very limited in some regions for example Spain and Africa for the youth players and we're relying too much on the likes of Kershaw for youth scouting.
- expanding the affiliation club options.It's always more guaranteed for the loanees to be played at a club that has connection to us.A top-flight Dutch club like what Chelsea did could be a good start, and we need a close-tied Championship club like Hull/PNE in the past as well.
- more aggressive in poaching good talents (not just players but coaches,scouts,... and other positions) from smaller club.We seem to act too much like a nice guy in that regard.
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Couldn't have said it better.
 
Sign Fergie in as DoF, bring Jose/Pep to manage the club.
Release: Valencia, Rooney, Carrick for starters.
Sign: CB, LB, CM, forward & a winger
 
VivaJanuzaj said:
Sign Fergie in as DoF, bring Jose/Pep to manage the club.
Release: Valencia, Rooney, Carrick for starters.
Sign: CB, LB, CM, forward & a winger
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I love the guy, but Fergie as DOF would be an absolute disaster. Can you imagine him operating in the current footballing financial climate?

"Neymar fi 120 million? Fuch tha. Wha's that Bournemouth winger called?"
 
As many have said, first, we need to have a structure above the manager, that structure is currently non-existent. Our model of "manager does everything" should have ended with Ferguson. We need a football administrator, someone who understands the game. That person should have a project, stating what our short term [coaching, players & recruitment], medium term [coaching, players etc] and long term [academy, youth scouting, young talent recruitment] plans are, and how we aim to achieve it. It's scary what would have become of this club if we didn't have a bottomless pit of cash.

Review the transfer policy. I can't say this enough, no matter how good a manager you have, without the right players, you're not going to achieve a lot. We need to be sensible & aggresive in the transfer market. For example, why are we going after Neymar & Muller, or players at such big/currently better clubs? It doesn't make any sense. We'll have more success going for below our food chain, or good players at clubs whom we are richer than.
 
We've hired the wrong managers. LVG was either very brave or very stupid. It depends on your perspective. We've lost a lot of character in the squad. So a new manager could continue down the route we're on or spend money. I think it'll be the latter and I think any manager would be quietly confident. We have to catch up to City in terms of ambition and Chelsea might improve but these aren't impossible objectives. If Jose comes in, the players have to work with the manager and focus on their individual battles. Two goals against Norwich through our center is not good. You need a strong core. I think we'll see quite a few purchases and that is the main thing. Rebuild the first team squad. Someone like Jose might thrive or even want that responsibility and I think we would give him that freedom.
 
Get the best youth scouts and pro scouts.

I bet there are more Vardy like players out there.
 
Single most important thing for me is to identify and stick to a proper recruitment policy. This goes for all aspects through our youth setup to the first team. Its been a shambles for a long time now, and the chickens are only coming home to roost so aggressively now because we don't have Sir alex making a gourmet dish with road kill.

We arent going to get the bales and neymars of this world once they are settled at the big boys, we need to be getting these chaps the transfer before, and while that is the easiest thing in the world to say, im not expecting us to sign every potential star out there, but over the past 5-7 years we have missed out on way too many sitters. and that's not including the little "gems" that other clubs seem to have cropping up all over the place, i dont think our scouting system regarding younger players is anywhere near as good as our rivals, the only proper player we have gone out and aggressively purchased feels like Luke shaw.

The list of players we failed to attain, but in a position of strength could have easily had, is sad reading indeed.
 
NoPace said:
Absolutely. Managers don't seem to stay that long anymore, so we need a smart person in charge to hire managers and make transfer decisions or at least negotiations. Someone who can get along with different managers too.

Off the top of my head., I'd say the teams with good transfer + managing hire records to steal a DOF from are:

Dortmund - Klopp and Tuchel good hires, lots of great transfers

Southampton - Poch was a great hire and Koeman has an ugly record but has done well until this month. Bertrand, Mane, Pelle, Van Dijk, Clyne and Wanyama all great buys and they just seem to make logical moves, like pairing the mobile, aggressive and defensive Wanyama with a deep playmaking CM in Clasie.

Atletico Madrid - A lot of academy development here, but some great young players have been bought (Gimenez, Griezmann, Carrasco, Correa) and some fine deals as well (Gabi, Tiago, Godin, Filipe Luis) over the last few years.

FA - Dan Ashworth - People seemed to think he was a genius at West Brom. Don't know how deserved that was.




Bayern - Is there a talented #2 or #3 here we can poach to run things?

Spurs - Is Levy relying on someone smart we can poach?
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:D Zorc would tell United politely to feck off. He won't leave his boyhood club any time. Our head scout just extended so no luck there either.

Jonas Boldt, head scout of Leverkusen, however, could be a good option although rumors have it he'll become Mainz' DoF if Heidel leaves them for Schalke. He'd be at least class for your scouting department, with great connections to Latinamerica and also a great track record for hiring promising youngsters.
 
TooBias said:
I love the guy, but Fergie as DOF would be an absolute disaster. Can you imagine him operating in the current footballing financial climate?

"Neymar fi 120 million? Fuch tha. Wha's that Bournemouth winger called?"
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Maybe, and perhaps were done with spending tens of millions on bollocks
 
Why do we need a DOF?

Mata and Fellaini were signed without a plan but that was down to the idiot Moyes.

Van Gaal has been decent in the market in terms of the players coming in. But he's also the only idiot who would let so many players go. I doubt Mourinho would make such a mistake.

Lets hire a world class manager instead and let him make decisions on transfers.

I don't feel a DOF works well in English football. Wenger and Fergie didn't need one. Look at the crap Spurs and Liverpool have signed in the last few years because of transfer committees and so on.

Yeah it works great at Bayern, Barca and Real Madrid. But those clubs have a monopoly over the talent pool in Germany and Spain. Bayern will always attract the best young German players. Just like young Spanish players will be attracted to Barca and Madrid. Where as if we want a young English player now, we'd have to fight with 5 or 6 clubs.
 
NoPace said:
Spurs - Is Levy relying on someone smart we can poach?
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I wouldn't trust Spurs man with money, looking how they spent 100m for absolute bollocks when they received Bale money...

First and foremost is getting a world class manager to stabilize things up, which we should have done immediately after Fergie.
 
Bojan11 said:
I don't feel a DOF works well in English football. Wenger and Fergie didn't need one. Look at the crap Spurs and Liverpool have signed in the last few years because of transfer committees and so on.

Yeah it works great at Bayern, Barca and Real Madrid. But those clubs have a monopoly over the talent pool in Germany and Spain. Bayern will always attract the best young German players. Just like young Spanish players will be attracted to Barca and Madrid. Where as if we want a young English player now, we'd have to fight with 5 or 6 clubs.
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That's simply not true.
 
The last three seasons have been a fiasco of leadership. We need to rethink the relationship between business and football. When we were on the stock exchange there was a clear dividing line between running the business and running the football. That's become very hazy since the Glazers. The football management side needs to be professionalised toward developing coaches and managers, through management schemes like loaning out young potential managers to clubs as temporary managers, assistants or as coaches. The Moyes et al fiascos have shown this is the weakest part of the club's football philosophy. In terms of football we need to decide if we have a style of play or change with every new manager. If we stand for the Busby-Doc-Fergie style of football we need to ensure managers come who promise to work to those ends.
 
Bojan11 said:
Why do we need a DOF?

Mata and Fellaini were signed without a plan but that was down to the idiot Moyes.

Van Gaal has been decent in the market in terms of the players coming in. But he's also the only idiot who would let so many players go. I doubt Mourinho would make such a mistake.

Lets hire a world class manager instead and let him make decisions on transfers.

I don't feel a DOF works well in English football. Wenger and Fergie didn't need one. Look at the crap Spurs and Liverpool have signed in the last few years because of transfer committees and so on.

Yeah it works great at Bayern, Barca and Real Madrid. But those clubs have a monopoly over the talent pool in Germany and Spain. Bayern will always attract the best young German players. Just like young Spanish players will be attracted to Barca and Madrid. Where as if we want a young English player now, we'd have to fight with 5 or 6 clubs.
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English football hasn't been at it's best for a few years so I don't think what works here is the way to go and besides clubs that you have mentioned have resource constraints, do not usually play in the CL among other issues holding them back for us conclusively say the DoF structure is at the root of their problems. Putting everything on the football side only works when you have big characters like Fergie and Wenger who possess the intellectual depth and breadth, the drive and mental stamina to competently oversee the football side and the first team. Another weakness is that a manager's shelf life is sorely a function of fitst team results - if they suck he is gone - which leaves everything else; transfers, scouting and other intangibles like sport science (medics, fitness research etc) at grave risk.
 
When Moyes failed I was behind Giggs, I wanted him to be the new manager because the club could afford the gamble, 2 years of underperformances was acceptable but today it's not, the club can't fail for 3 or 4 seasons.
So to begin I think that Guardiola already knows what he is going to do, if he is joining us it's already sealed but lets assume that he isn't joining us, I would sign Mourinho and I would continue to plan on a future for Giggs, I would name him at the head of the academy or as a technical director and if he shows managerial qualities in those positions I would name him manager after Mourinho or if he likes those roles I would keep him there and he would be the continuity and history of the club.
 
I think most of the reforming needs to be done on the pitch. First off we need a leader. Someone who will scream instructions at the players and instill them with a bit of confidence. Secondly, players with pace. Most of the goals conceded this season have been from counterattacks. Carrick..Blind..Mata..Fellaini....all way too slow!
 
VivaJanuzaj said:
Sign Fergie in as DoF, bring Jose/Pep to manage the club.
Release: Valencia, Rooney, Carrick for starters.
Sign: CB, LB, CM, forward & a winger
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This might sound bizarre, but I actually think we've really missed Valencia.
 
Wrt the next manager after the next manager - as much as I loved Giggs as a player, I'd politely and respectfully ask him to join another club as soon as a new manager is hired, or maybe at the end of the season at max. In saying that I don't 'hate' Giggs, and I don't care abut his sordid personal escapades, just as I don't care about José's antics. No grooming or allusions of him being a future candidate, no nothing, no reserve manager - if he stays on as a coach he will forevermore be a noose around the manager's neck now that he's had the taste of managing United's first team, and maybe promised a managerial role behind closed doors. If he wants to stay, keep him in technical roles and tell him he's not going to be the next manager and will continue in the technical or executive side of the club like Sir Bobby, maybe become our Sporting Director one day if he has the right credentials and shows the capacity in administrative roles; if he wants to become our manager in the future, then he needs to go and spread his wings. It's not like he is Bob Pailsey who was an assistant for 15 years with no managerial ambitions of his own until later on, and became manager only when Shankly retired; or Fagan who was a reserve/ first team coach for 20+ years under both Shankly and Paisley; or Pep who was never promised the manager's job in the future under Rijkaard and only became a major candidate for the position under Laporta because of his excellent work with Barça B.

Thank you for your record-breaking service Giggsy, we love you and everything you've done for the club, you've been the spiritual successor to Sir Bobby; but if you want to become our next manager - then please go, and cut your teeth elsewhere. Infact, I'd rip a lot of the exciting setup and start building from scratch without a lot of links to previous managerial tenures - the club needs a culture shock to come to terms with the elites of modern football and the professionalism that clubs like Bayern Munich exhibit, and if we keep romanticizing the past and 'grooming' managers, it will never happen. If we get Pep or Mourinho, let's plan the future around Pep or Mourinho instead of presuming that they will leave in 3-4 seasons thus necessitating the 'grooming' procedure. If and when they leave, get the best manager around (this is what Bayern does, and it serves them well - they keep their ex-players like Rummenigge or Breitner in executive or scouting roles instead of forcing the issue with them as coaches or assistants or making them suffer delusions of grandeur). If Giggs proves his mettle by then, appoint him, but stop feeding him the dream now. We made a mistake by getting ahead of ourselves, and anointing him as a successor in the first place, let's not perpetuate that.
 
Invictus said:
Wrt the next manager after the next manager - as much as I loved Giggs as a player, I'd politely and respectfully ask him to join another club as soon as a new manager is hired, or maybe at the end of the season at max. In saying that I don't 'hate' Giggs, and I don't care abut his sordid personal escapades, just as I don't care about José's antics. No grooming or allusions of him being a future candidate, no nothing, no reserve manager - if he stays on as a coach he will forevermore be a noose around the manager's neck now that he's had the taste of managing United's first team, and maybe promised a managerial role behind closed doors. If he wants to stay, keep him in technical roles and tell him he's not going to be the next manager and will continue in the technical or executive side of the club like Sir Bobby, maybe become our Sporting Director one day if he has the right credentials and shows the capacity in administrative roles; if he wants to become our manager in the future, then he needs to go and spread his wings. It's not like he is Bob Pailsey who was an assistant for 15 years with no managerial ambitions of his own until later on, and became manager only when Shankly retired; or Fagan who was a reserve/ first team coach for 20+ years under both Shankly and Paisley; or Pep who was never promised the manager's job in the future under Rijkaard and only became a major candidate for the position under Laporta because of his excellent work with Barça B.

Thank you for your record-breaking service Giggsy, we love you and everything you've done for the club, you've been the spiritual successor to Sir Bobby; but if you want to become our next manager - then please go, and cut your teeth elsewhere. Infact, I'd rip a lot of the exciting setup and start building from scratch without a lot of links to previous managerial tenures - the club needs a culture shock to come to terms with the elites of modern football and the professionalism that clubs like Bayern Munich exhibit, and if we keep romanticizing the past and 'grooming' managers, it will never happen. If we get Pep or Mourinho, let's plan the future around Pep or Mourinho instead of presuming that they will leave in 3-4 seasons thus necessitating the 'grooming' procedure. If and when they leave, get the best manager around (this is what Bayern does, and it serves them well - they keep their ex-players like Rummenigge or Breitner in executive or scouting roles instead of forcing the issue with them as coaches or assistants or making them suffer delusions of grandeur). If Giggs proves his mettle by then, appoint him, but stop feeding him the dream now. We made a mistake by getting ahead of ourselves, and anointing him as a successor in the first place, let's not perpetuate that.
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Agree. Good post.
 
Bottom line is we need to recruit some top quality players ASAP.

Not "good" players. We need top players.

All this hyperbole about "footballing vision", "relationship between football and business", blah... is over complicating the simple fact that we have four players in the squad that most would say are "definitely keepers".

We have a couple others that are decent/useful.

The rest, who make up the vast majority of the squad range from "piss poor" to "okay".
 
We should stop hankering after another "dynasty". We have all seen what happened when the last one ended - the whole club was moulded to Fergie's image and everything fell apart when he left.

The club should be organised in such a way that managers may come and go but everything stays virtually the same so there's no seismic upheaval like we're still having.
 
Start acting like a big club when it makes managerial appointments and not just when it chases players.
 
Rednotdead said:
A good DOF, vastly experienced in the game, would also ensure stability and continuity when managers come and go.
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There's nobody on the board, bar Fergie, with any experience of the modern game and I seriously doubt he'd want the job. I hope that we bring in someone like you've described; maybe an interim consultant to plan for the next five years or so. Its clear that the Glazers are out of their depth in this regard. Real have made good use of Zidane. Who can we call on.
 
I believe we need to sit down and understand our situation. SAF was a magnificent manager, the best this club had ever had. Man management wise he's flawless hence why I think he should be the one replacing LVG for the next couple of months. Having said that he failed to build his 4th great squad. He did had a fair share of successes for example in bringing in Smalling and DDG. However the rest of the plan backfired badly with players like Scholes, Giggs, Rio, Evra and co never truly replaced. The Moyes administration was a disaster not only because he was out of depth but also because age caught up with our ageing team. LVG on the other hand made some shrewd signing (although he failed the man management/tactical area test badly) but we're still nowhere near to EPL title competitors yet and with the squad losing their faith in LVG its pointless keeping him here any longer.

Some mentioned the DOF position, however I think we've tried that option already. There's no way the club would have allowed some rookie with no experience in winning to lead the club without having some sort of guidance. We know that SAF regularly visited the players during half times and he rarely skipped a match during Moyes administration. So in many ways, its all about being there and doing that. We also played around the 'cutting the cord from the 'United Way' and start something new strategy. LVG is a man who sticks to his philosophy. There's no way someone would dare confronting him and that include SAF. Both strategies backfired badly

In my opinion we need someone whose sitting somewhere in the middle. A person who has a sticks to his values but who also know how to adapt to a different club culture. Someone whose got great experience at continental level but who will also take in serious consideration what this club is all about. That is why I wanted Ancelotti so badly. We're talking about a man who moved to some of the most difficult clubs in the world and yet he kept on winning. A man who had already been in England and won the lot. Also he's not a person who shy from experimenting with players positions (the Pirlo-Gattuso tandem was a masterstroke) and to introduce/stick with kids.
 
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