How much do 'vibes' matter? And is Ruben too negative?

SparkedIntoLife

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I've long admired the regular match goers at United for their steadfastness in supporting the team despite tough circumstances. That stoicism seems to be eroding at a faster rate at the moment. The booing of Zirkzee highlighted that. It feels like there's a rise of toxicity at Old Trafford. The Glazers have seemingly been replaced by INEOS as the evil overlord villains as initial optimism about their partial takeover has been quelled by price hikes, job cuts, some poor footballing decisions and rhetoric that doesn't jive with the socialist, working class culture of Manchester.

Ralf Rangnick's interim spell at United was a disaster on the pitch. Yet he tickled the ears of dissatisfied fans with words of revolution such as 'open heart surgery'. The players were totally zapped of belief but it didn't matter to many fans; they were shite anyway and would be replaced in the revolution. Anthony Elanga was an early face of the revolution - hard working, humble but actually quite average. Rashford (and Ronaldo to a lesser extent) was an early scapegoat.

ETH came in and sent Ralf packing. He established a lot of control in terms of transfer choices, the footballing structure, oversight of the Under 21s etc. Yet his tone was different. He reminded us that these players had finished second only a year before. He claimed that Rashford was world class. He spoke positively about evolution and not revolution. What happened that season? We finished third and won the Carabao Cup. Rashford scored 30 goals. He didn't commit to the Ajax free flowing style he was recruited for. He played a slightly more possession based version of the counter attack that suited us under Ole.

Many of us suspected that season's success was a veneer and that major cracks were being covered up. The bold thing to do would've been to sell Rashford, Fernandes and Casemiro for decent money and commit to the style that got ETH to the job. He did make big changes in that second season but they were weird compromised ones, still trying to shore horn in players that didn't suit his overall philosophy. The writing was on the wall from there but negativity was muted somewhat by the emergence of Mainoo and development of Garnacho.

Ruben Amorim came in with charm, conviction and charisma. He aligned with what I consider the real aspects of United DNA - giving youth a chance and attacking football, not systems or formations.

He's come in to find a club that's probably further away from where he wants us to be than he expected. Media noise, INEOS fuelling negativity in their financial decisions and the busy Christmas period haven't helped Ruben. Yet two months later, he is coming off more and more negative. The results have been poor but most of us excuse them because we like the manager, like his vision and know that the club is in a mess and reaping the consequences of years of bad decisions from the top down. It would be disingenuous for Ruben to be super positive, ignoring the bad results/performances and I'm certainly not wanting him to abandon his principles or system.

I just wonder whether the negativity has gone too far. Do we not need our figurehead to talk up the club's potential a bit more? Sporting fans have said that Amorim can look very pained on the sidelines, even when things were going great. But is the morose body language hurting us a bit when the club feels so negative already? And why hasn't any of our youngsters gotten involved when the current lot have been performing so badly and there's huge gaps in the squad? Are they far from ready, not good enough or being protected? Protected from what?

I think we're better than we're showing. Do we need a revolution? Of course but we're in freefall atm, players already low resale values are crashing and the mood at OT is poor. Surely there's got to be more positivity beyond 'Amorim is the saviour'.

For the record, I think we have the right guy at the wrong time. I am concerned, though, at the power he wields, the 'saviour' narrative that's forming and the leadership vacuum from top. We kept Andreas Georgsen who is allegedly one of the best set pieces coaches in the world (he preceded Joper at both Brentford and Arsenal and only left Arsenal for a managerial opportunity). For me, his marginalisation is a bigger, more worrying story than it's being made out to be. Wilcox seemingly insisted he stays. Wilcox got his wishes. But if he's being marginalised, then Wilcox didn't get his wishes. While we definitely need a strong Head Coach who will stick to his convictions, I'm wary of the Head Coach who is overly parochial in his mindset and doesn't work well within the footballing structure, especially when so young and relatively inexperienced.

Ultimately, in hindsight, should we have just gone full Vibes FC with Ruud til the end of the season and then bring in Amorim in a position of strength with some resale value on players he wanted to ditch, some PSR wiggle room and more of a clean slate? Is this yet another terrible miscalculation from INEOS? Have we sucked Amorim into the negativity vortex? Does he need to be a little more flexible? And a bit more 'fake it to you make it' with some positive affirmation before then really kicking ass and clearing house? I'm not talking formation/style compromise but at least general discourse and demeanour?
 
Vibes matter. You can have temporary improvement through fake vibes and bigging players up but eventually you will drop back. Lasting belief and confidence comes from building it up and earning it through good performances based off of what you trained and rewarding the hard work.
 
His press conference after the Newcastle game was very negative and I imagine a few of the players were pissed off by it. Even if we are fighting relegation it was still too soon for him to bring it up.
 
Blood Mage said:
His press conference after the Newcastle game was very negative and I imagine a few of the players were pissed off by it. Even if we are fighting relegation it was still too soon for him to bring it up.
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Did he bring it up or was asked a question about it?
 
Blood Mage said:
His press conference after the Newcastle game was very negative and I imagine a few of the players were pissed off by it. Even if we are fighting relegation it was still too soon for him to bring it up.
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If they are pissed off by hearing the truth then it's even more reason to bin the losers
 
Confidence and belief really do play a huge part in sport. But it can't be faked. You can't force it and just make good things happen with sheer force of desire. It takes time to build organically.

SparkedIntoLife said:
Ultimately, in hindsight, should we have just gone full Vibes FC with Ruud til the end of the season and then bring in Amorim in a position of strength with some resale value on players he wanted to ditch, some PSR wiggle room and more of a clean slate? Is this yet another terrible miscalculation from INEOS?
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Yeah maybe, who knows. It was quite clear that Ruud had something in those few games. Maybe it would have continued, but it could just as easily have faded the very next game. With one bad result, or one bad half of football. Given the fragile nature of our players, and also importantly, the fragility of the fans' confidence. Maybe Ineos could have waited to see how things had turned out under Ruud, but they would soon have been accused of dithering.

Going out and quickly securing one of the top young talents in europe can't be considered a bad move just because we're still having problems. Sure, things might have gone differently if Amorim had come in confidently stating that we're going to fly up the table. Describing himself as the special one, etc. But he'd look a right fool now if he'd done that and still had this form.
 
Blood Mage said:
His press conference after the Newcastle game was very negative and I imagine a few of the players were pissed off by it. Even if we are fighting relegation it was still too soon for him to bring it up.
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He didn’t bring it up though. He also never directly said the club are in one.
 
If he had been ‘positive’ you would be calling him deluded. If he’d batted relegation fears away you would be saying he’s not understanding the quality of the league and how difficult winning games is (“this isn’t the Portuguese league” etc.)

Vibes don’t sustain success, a culture of accountability and a growth mindset are the main requirements for a high performing team in any industry. Vibes come from happy people, I’ve never seen a happy team that is failing, so it’s at best a short term solution.
 
@Saunteraway made a very good post in the Amorim thread akin to mine.

@bosnian_red, you make a good point. I understand the need to make the players want to earn the praise of the manager. However, the majority of this is done in private. Amorim was known before joining us for always protecting his players from public scrutiny. There's so much public negativity towards United (from pundits, ex players, the whole INEOS backlash etc.) that I feel that the manager needs to be the one trying to change the narrative. Even if behind the scenes he's kicking their asses. While Amorim has not outright said 'these players are crap', he's kind of done it subtly. He does seem to be playing into the saviour narrative and hinting that a huge overhaul is coming. I think the overhaul is probably the right call but telegraphing it isn't. If players think they'll be moved on at the end of the season, it's only human to down tools a bit. If we signal that these players are leaving, it weakens our selling position. The reality is that we need decent fees and willing buyers to really make a proper rebuild possible. We cannot just rip it all up and start again.

Ruben's spoken about harnessing the crowd to spur the players on. Well harness us then. We need a bit more hope and positivity, even if slightly stretching the truth. The players need to feel they can fit in the system and be motivated to be assets again. I genuinely don't believe the well peddled narrative that they don't care. I think many of them care too much and just feel beaten down.

And surely, if our players are so unsuitable to playing in Amorim's system, there's got to be at least one player from our Under 18s to step in. The Under 18s who have been almost undefeated in a season and a half. Just promoting one of them would give everyone a lift. And all the fans would give that player some grace from criticism for at least the rest of the season.
 
I don't think he has been negative at all. Simply said the players have to adjust to a new system and style at the busiest time of the year where they can't train. I don't think he has said anything about rashford ability.
 
BeretWearingEnt said:
If he had been ‘positive’ you would be calling him deluded. If he’d batted relegation fears away you would be saying he’s not understanding the quality of the league and how difficult winning games is (“this isn’t the Portuguese league” etc.)

Vibes don’t sustain success, a culture of accountability and a growth mindset are the main requirements for a high performing team in any industry. Vibes come from happy people, I’ve never seen a happy team that is failing, so it’s at best a short term solution.
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I think there's a balance. A truly successful person is someone who is tough enough on themselves to improve meticulously. Yet they are also confident enough to not get stuck in analysis-paralysis and let any deficiencies they have absolutely crush them. It's the same with teams. They have to know that they can do it.

There's such massive pervasive negativity and criticism around United. The narrative is that everyone's shit and needs to be gotten rid of. Is that really true? We finished third eighteen months or so ago. How are we suddenly so bad and everyone needs to leave? This is really quite Rangnick era esque. Why have so many players and managers turned to United and gone shit, having performed badly elsewhere?

There is a level of us needing some delusional optimism right now. The whole world are telling us we're shit. There's got to be some balance, right?
 
He's one of the most positive, enthusiastic managers I've ever seen. Just because hes also realistic doesnt mean he's negative. I dont know why people keep doing this - we had the bad cop with jose, we had the good cop with ole. We've seen it all, done it all, and for years the players have simply not been good enough and have never had the fight or courage needed to hit a new level. This microanalysing ever little detail of managers only emboldens players - how about they dont look like they're made of paper in every challenge. Do that, and build from there.
 
bosnian_red said:
Vibes matter. You can have temporary improvement through fake vibes and bigging players up but eventually you will drop back. Lasting belief and confidence comes from building it up and earning it through good performances based off of what you trained and rewarding the hard work.
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Thats the answer. I'd add that an environment where sustainable belief and confidence is created, is also the environment where leadership will emerge naturally. Which only underlines that we finally have to get used to the fact, that short-cuts and quick fixes are not an option anymore. It will only prolong the drag. Per merdam ad luxem.
Blood Mage said:
His press conference after the Newcastle game was very negative and I imagine a few of the players were pissed off by it. Even if we are fighting relegation it was still too soon for him to bring it up.
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Players who are pissed off by stuff the manager says on a press conference can get fecked. Those players have absolutely nothing to show for. It is not only their fault we are where we are but any sense of entitlement is the last thing that is warranted. If this isn't rock bottom, what is? And they are part of it. Accept it, do what the manager wants, try your best. Thats it.
 
SparkedIntoLife said:
I think there's a balance. A truly successful person is someone who is tough enough on themselves to improve meticulously. Yet they are also confident enough to not get stuck in analysis-paralysis and let any deficiencies they have absolutely crush them. It's the same with teams. They have to know that they can do it.

There's such massive pervasive negativity and criticism around United. The narrative is that everyone's shit and needs to be gotten rid of. Is that really true? We finished third eighteen months or so ago. How are we suddenly so bad and everyone needs to leave? This is really quite Rangnick era esque. Why have so many players and managers turned to United and gone shit, having performed badly elsewhere?

There is a level of us needing some delusional optimism right now. The whole world are telling us we're shit. There's got to be some balance, right?
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Hard disagree on faking optimism. Management or leadership is there to analyse and identify the issues, and more importantly plot the way forward.

You’re conflating the internal negativity (which we don’t have a read on) and the external negativity. Amorim hasn’t said everyone is garbage and needs jettisoning, he’s pointed out the ship has hit rocks, and is taking on water. To say this isn’t the case would be idiotic, and result in action not being taken to improve a bad situation, ultimately making it worse. If the players can’t cope with that, then we’re cooked, but painting a rosy picture and hoping positivity will just passively fix glaring problems has never worked in my experience.
 
SparkedIntoLife said:
I think there's a balance. A truly successful person is someone who is tough enough on themselves to improve meticulously. Yet they are also confident enough to not get stuck in analysis-paralysis and let any deficiencies they have absolutely crush them. It's the same with teams. They have to know that they can do it.

There's such massive pervasive negativity and criticism around United. The narrative is that everyone's shit and needs to be gotten rid of. Is that really true? We finished third eighteen months or so ago. How are we suddenly so bad and everyone needs to leave? This is really quite Rangnick era esque. Why have so many players and managers turned to United and gone shit, having performed badly elsewhere?

There is a level of us needing some delusional optimism right now. The whole world are telling us we're shit. There's got to be some balance, right?
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No.

We are shit. There is no point fecking around that. But being shit doesn't mean we have to be shit forever. Just get rid of the pride, accept that everybody is part of the problem but that everybody can become part of the solution.
 
I think you should start your career in politics with your ability to push a nonsense narrative.

This is adult competition, not kids competition. Standards are so important as they affect everything that happens. Our standards have been so damn poor that our attitude towards our players has been more akin to wanting nursery participation rewards, than to being the best team.

Our focus towards shot term fixes has lowered our actual standards so damn much. These are players paid millions, I don't care if their feelings are hurt by honest analysis from our manager. He's not been personal in his attacks, he's not been unfair or aggressive.

Too many players have been lazy and/or underperforming. He is the type of manager we should have had over a decade ago.
 
I'm not asking for ETH-like assurance in the plan, despite no evidence of it manifesting itself. I'm not asking for denial of the realities of what we are facing. I just think the balance has tipped into the overly negative territory, especially when we still have a season to fight for and we have to somehow fund a massive rebuild. Are we just writing off the season? Half the posters here would have us sell like 15 of the first team squad. Also, the negativity around the club is enormous. Are you denying that this negativity has a part to play in the poor performances? Do you expect the players (who are human beings, first and foremost, and young ones at that) to just totally block out an unprecedented level of negativity? This isn't 1992 where someone can just not read the papers and hide away in their mansion immune from criticism.

Also, if these players are so shit and ill-suited, why aren't any youngsters being tried out (especially in the positions where we're lacking options such as CM, LWB and ST)? Are literally zero of our league winning Under 18s not worthy of a chance?

For the record, I said that Amorim is the right guy at the wrong time. I fear he's being eaten up a bit by the negativity too. Ultimately the narrative will only really change with results on the pitch but a bit of positive discourse isn't digging one's head in the sand.
 
SparkedIntoLife said:
I'm not asking for ETH-like assurance in the plan, despite no evidence of it manifesting itself. I'm not asking for denial of the realities of what we are facing. I just think the balance has tipped into the overly negative territory, especially when we still have a season to fight for and we have to somehow fund a massive rebuild. Are we just writing off the season? Half the posters here would have us sell like 15 of the first team squad. Also, the negativity around the club is enormous. Are you denying that this negativity has a part to play in the poor performances? Do you expect the players (who are human beings, first and foremost, and young ones at that) to just totally block out an unprecedented level of negativity? This isn't 1992 where someone can just not read the papers and hide away in their mansion immune from criticism.

Also, if these players are so shit and ill-suited, why aren't any youngsters being tried out (especially in the positions where we're lacking options such as CM, LWB and ST)? Are literally zero of our league winning Under 18s not worthy of a chance?

For the record, I said that Amorim is the right guy at the wrong time. I fear he's being eaten up a bit by the negativity too. Ultimately the narrative will only really change with results on the pitch but a bit of positive discourse isn't digging one's head in the sand.
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I would argue the opposite, our positive culture has lead to our biggest problems, the biggest regression. Now we are left with reality the positivity manager had nothing left, with our team and club exposed.

No point crying now that things are bad and we needed someone to come in and deal with reality.
 
Hammondo said:
I would argue the opposite, our positive culture has lead to our biggest problems, the biggest regression. Now we are left with reality the positivity manager had nothing left, with our team and club exposed.

No point crying now that things are bad and we needed someone to come in and deal with reality.
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I laid my exact response to this in the original post about ETH.

Ten Hag, rightly or wrongly, bigged up the squad after Rangnick's negativity and got possibly the maximum out of them during that first season. I personally felt he should've started the 'open heart surgery' immediately, though he was ultimately exposed as a poor judge of player and he completely compromised his footballing philosophy that did so well at Ajax and probably would've succeeded at United. I also think his system at Ajax was more 'the United way' than what the weird compromised hybrid we ended up seeing. The ideal, for me, would've been to have sold Fernandes, Rashford, Maguire and Casemiro after that first season while they had some value. Then done the rebuild from a position of strength.

Let's be clear -
  • I (still) believe Amorim is the right guy
  • I have no problems with him starting with his footballing philosophy earlier and I accept his point that there are variations within his system
  • I am prepared to accept the rough with the smooth this season. I'm under no illusions that it won't be a rocky road.
  • I don't believe any player at United is a must-keep at the detriment of the overall vision. My favourite players are Mainoo and Amad but I admit that the former might not be the right player for what Amorim's trying to achieve. We'll see. I also like Garnacho a lot but would happily see him go if he's ill-suited, not the right attitude and gives us PSR leeway.
  • I'm also aware that it's still really early days
  • I totally feel that what he's doing with Rashford is right
All I'm saying is that he came in halfway through a season and we can't just afford to throw it all away, declare everyone as crap and then start again. We still need to actually do the selling bit and tanking their value even further isn't wise. We also still need to convince people that this can work at United and that there's good signs. Prospective new signings need to see something materialising rather than just 'but look at what he did at Sporting'.

I'm not even fully blaming Amorim. He was brought into a bad situation... I just don't want it to eat him alive. Unfortunately, as the public figure of the club, he is the one who has to keep everyone as positive and success-focused as possible; including himself. He looks absolutely crushed. It's contagious. We already have enough negativity around. We already know that there's huge problems at the club. But his messaging so far is basically 'most of you are crap and won't be here' and 'I don't trust the youth'. Look at the 'what do we still need?' thread - most people are advocating for like 10 signings. I'm as guilty of transfer muppetry as anyone but this won't be solved by just shipping everyone out and starting again. Plus that's impossible with our PSR and cashflow situation.

The difference with ETH is that he was overwhelmingly positive but didn't choose the right plan to persist with. I believe more in Ruben's vision but feel that being more positive PUBLICLY would help us get to that place easier. It'd be easier to rebuild if 1) the mood around the club was better, 2) certain players were given a confidence boost and played well before being sold and 3) at least 1 or 2 young players were given a chance to fuel a sense of meritocracy and give the fans a lift.
 
Blood Mage said:
His press conference after the Newcastle game was very negative and I imagine a few of the players were pissed off by it. Even if we are fighting relegation it was still too soon for him to bring it up.
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Maybe but I honestly couldn’t give a feck what those waste of space players felt. feck them.
 
Actually I think the negativity (saying we'd experience pain and suffering, saying we're in a relegation battle, saying we're starving for leaders, etc.) is a wise tone for him to strike.

Because the reality is that we're at the start of yet another multi-year rebuild. And regardless of how positive he is, we're also facing bad results in the short term due to the decision to bring in a manager who plays an entirely different system mid season.

So lowering all immediate expectations by stressing just how bad things are is the best approach.

Also, as he said in one of his press conferences, the club needs a shock. It's often struck me that neither the club nor the fans would have the patience for the sort of pain Arsenal went through as part of their rebuild, with Arteta finishing outside the top 4 four seasons in a row, and the club paying to terminate the contracts of players like Aubamayang & Ozil just to get rid of them.

Driving home just how bad things are from day one makes big, patience-requiring rebuilding seem more palatable.
 
What we should have done is sack ETH at the end of last season, then bring in Amorim…or whoever the best available manager at the time would have been.

But if that’s too obvious and we’re talking about what to do right after the November sack of ETH, in retrospect we should have stuck with Ruud for the rest of the season. We have too many prima donnas for Ruben’s system to work. I really like Ruben and support what he’s trying to do, but I fear he’s been put into an impossible situation and may find himself sacked in a month or two as our situation continues to deteriorate because of these effing prima donnas.
 
sullydnl said:
Actually I think the negativity (saying we'd experience pain and suffering, saying we're in a relegation battle, saying we're starving for leaders, etc.) is a wise tone for him to strike.

Because the reality is that we're at the start of yet another multi-year rebuild. And regardless of how positive he is, we're also facing bad results in the short term due to the decision to bring in a manager who plays an entirely different system mid season.

So lowering all immediate expectations by stressing just how bad things are is the best approach.

Also, as he said in one of his press conferences, the club needs a shock. It's often struck me that neither the club nor the fans would have the patience for the sort of pain Arsenal went through as part of their rebuild, with Arteta finishing outside the top 4 four seasons in a row, and the club paying to terminate the contracts of players like Aubamayang & Ozil just to get rid of them.

Driving home just how bad things are from day one makes big, patience-requiring rebuilding seem more palatable.
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You may be right. We're in a weird catch 22 where we have expectations of a huge club (and periodically will get a second or third placed finish to reinstall that hope, despite obvious crack papering like in Ole and Ten Hag's tenure) but the strategic nous of a small club. Contrast this with Brighton or Bournemouth who have the exact opposite.

Maybe the rest of this season has to be shit. Have everyone expecting the worst next season. Pay off contracts if needs be, get rid of anyone not suited, buy only young hidden gem types maybe and do an absolute overhaul. Still keep up the negative rhetoric. But slowly see progress.

I really don't know. It's confusing to be a fan of this club these days. We as a fanbase probably do need to lower our expectations and get ready for it to get worse before it gets better. Maybe this club is actually very far away. Maybe our youth are not as good as we project them to be. Maybe we need to put off mercenary types so that the only people willing to join us are those who are ready for a fight. Perhaps all my thoughts above are wrong. I honestly don't know but I appreciate the discussion. We love the club and want it to get better.
 
Vibes to me is a short term gain for likely long term pain. Eventually people will figure you out and you end up back at square one. The Solskjaer era is essentially Vibes incarnate. We ended up right back to being as bad as we were at the end of the Jose era.

What we’re doing now is actual progress in my opinion. We’re biting the bullet now so that somewhere not too distant down the line it’ll look much better. We should have sent ETH on his way a week after winning the FA Cup and hired Amorim then though. Keeping ETH will go down as the biggest mistake we made this season.
 
SparkedIntoLife said:
@Saunteraway made a very good post in the Amorim thread akin to mine.

@bosnian_red, you make a good point. I understand the need to make the players want to earn the praise of the manager. However, the majority of this is done in private. Amorim was known before joining us for always protecting his players from public scrutiny. There's so much public negativity towards United (from pundits, ex players, the whole INEOS backlash etc.) that I feel that the manager needs to be the one trying to change the narrative. Even if behind the scenes he's kicking their asses. While Amorim has not outright said 'these players are crap', he's kind of done it subtly. He does seem to be playing into the saviour narrative and hinting that a huge overhaul is coming. I think the overhaul is probably the right call but telegraphing it isn't. If players think they'll be moved on at the end of the season, it's only human to down tools a bit. If we signal that these players are leaving, it weakens our selling position. The reality is that we need decent fees and willing buyers to really make a proper rebuild possible. We cannot just rip it all up and start again.

Ruben's spoken about harnessing the crowd to spur the players on. Well harness us then. We need a bit more hope and positivity, even if slightly stretching the truth. The players need to feel they can fit in the system and be motivated to be assets again. I genuinely don't believe the well peddled narrative that they don't care. I think many of them care too much and just feel beaten down.

And surely, if our players are so unsuitable to playing in Amorim's system, there's got to be at least one player from our Under 18s to step in. The Under 18s who have been almost undefeated in a season and a half. Just promoting one of them would give everyone a lift. And all the fans would give that player some grace from criticism for at least the rest of the season.
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This is so soft…if players don’t like what the gaffer is saying and think they might be moved on, they’ll down tools!? Feck me!!!

Firstly, if they don’t like what he’s saying, too bad. They have to be tougher! Leaders and winners are tough and can take that sort of criticism. It fires them up and drives them on. They would take it as a personal challenge…a slight even to push them to give more. The best United teams had these types of players . This is what we need right now. What was it Amorim said? We have a “leadership drought”…? He is bang on if what you’re worried about is even slightly possible!!!

Secondly, if they are hearing his words and think that they might be moved on, he is clearly talking to those players. They are the losers we want to be getting rid of. If I heard his comments, I’d be thinking “I don’t reckon he’s talking to me but just to be sure, I’m going to work twice as hard!!!”.

Thirdly, spinning directly out of the second point, anyone capable of downing tools on United, this fantastic old institution supported by the best fans in the country, any player that can even consider that should feck off…again, these are the type of players that Amorim needs to be moving on if he’s going to achieve anything with our club. The time for babying them and holding their hands has long gone. We need the leaders and big men to stand up now, before it’s too late…
 
This train wreck is too far gone for fake 'vibes'. Time to face reality and make serious changes. Short term pain for hopefully long term gain. feck this squad.
 
Asked directly on Sky Sports if Manchester United were now in a relegation fight, Amorim conceded: "That is really clear. It's one of the most difficult moments in the history of Man Utd and we have to address it with honesty."

Given as our club is just clickbait for lazy journalists, there’s no answer to that leading question that couldn’t be twisted in days/weeks/months to come. What should he have said?

(and I couldn’t care if the players’ feelings might be (so journalists say) a bit hurt.. try running harder, try not being so weak, etc. If they were giving it everything or even close, and Amorim was tearing into them, then Amorim might be the issue. He’s not.)
 
Don't really care what managers say in press conferences or interviews. I like to judge what's happens on the pitch. He's come in to an absolute shitshow and I do have sympathy for him.

He's taken a team who struggle to score and thrown in a defender instead of an attacker. We look very boring to watch. The 5 at the back atm seems like a waste of time because we look open. If he played attacking players as wing backs I'd be a lot happier.

He needs time and a summer to sort out 'his team' but if we continue to see performances like the last 3, things could get very messy. I like how he's dealt with Rashford and introducing Amad. Need to see a few more positives
 
Since Fergie leaving, Amorim is the first Manager we’ve had who has just turned around a perennial under-performing team and achieved big things in another top European league in a relatively short period of time with very specific tactics.

Everything he has said resonates, he has not paid lip service to the fans, he has said from the outset that team is not currently good enough, has a poor work ethic and lacks leadership. He has said it will take time but there are big things that have to be changed.

From his interviews, it is apparent that the qualities of the players and probably the toxic situation at the club are both worse than he anticipated, however it is also apparent that he is convinced if given time and resource he can turn our fortunes around.

I don’t know about you but Amorim is a breath of fresh air. In order for long-term improvement this short-term pain has to happen.

whilst not impossible, it’s very unlikely we’ll be relegated in the process. I am confident that he is intelligent enough to improve us quite quickly despite the pain we are experiencing right now.

We have to stick with this guy…
 
T00lsh3d said:
How did ‘vibe enthusiast’ Ole get on?
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First full season - finished third, 3 semi finals. Second full season - finished second (and were 3 points clear at the top of the table in January), quarter final, semi final and Europa finalist. Fell off a cliff thereafter but was sacked in the November.

So not great, and I believe the style of football was regressive, but nowhere near as bad as often portrayed. Definitely not 14th... and I don't blame Amorim for that.
 
Onanawhatsmyname said:
I don’t know about you but Amorim is a breath of fresh air. In order for long-term improvement this short-term pain has to happen.

whilst not impossible, it’s very unlikely we’ll be relegated in the process. I am confident that he is intelligent enough to improve us quite quickly despite the pain we are experiencing right now.

We have to stick with this guy…
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I completely agree with you. I just think the discourse has slipped a little bit too much into the negative realm (and the latest comments about the form really affecting him and him being stressed is refreshingly honest but I'm not sure of the utility of it).
 
T00lsh3d said:
How did ‘vibe enthusiast’ Ole get on?
Click to expand...
Only manager in 11 years to get Champions League football twice in a row (2nd and 3rd), until the ultra low work-rate waster Sancho and elderly Ronaldo were brought into the side.
 
Ferguson was ruthless but he bid his time

Going Rambo on day 1 is very risky. The players looks pissed and taking the piss. As much as i loathe such players you cant win if you dont have the dressing room. Claiming most of them are rubbish while still having no alternatives is a bad managerial move.

So unless he wields the proverbial sword of unsackable and millions and time to create his own starting xi, things doesnt bode well for him.

Too fast too brutal too soon.

Smart as dove cunning as a snake they say.

Amorim should bid his time and feck them when he's ready and only when he's ready behind the screen.
 
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