How much difference do you think a manager makes

UnitedFire

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As things stand and assuming we have a passable transfer window, I.e. 3 starters/ regulars where do you think we'd end up in the following scenarios:

1) Under ETH
2) No manager, players have to work it out, I.e. natural leader or captain, etc
3) Reserve team coach, I.e. limited experience, basically Rangnick!
4) Ole returns
5) Best womens football manager
6) Referee turns manager, maybe Collina for example
7) Avid football fan with decent managerial experience in a non football environment - people person, modern management style
8) As above, but autocratic and authoritarian style, think old school gravitas
9) Avid football fan no managerial experience - nice guy
10) Avid football fan no managerial experience - arse hole
11) Pep
12) Klopp

On another thread I suggested a fan wouldn't do much worse than bottom half as that is over stating the impact of a manager, but am I understating the impact?
 
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There was a study done saying in most cases it doesn’t actually matter who the manager is, and that there was correlation of more than 90% between a team’s league finish and it’s wage bill. The exceptions were managers like Fergie, Clough, Wenger etc. It was written a while ago so I’m not sure how true it still is.
 
There was a study done saying in most cases it doesn’t actually matter who the manager is, and that there was correlation of more than 90% between a team’s league finish and it’s wage bill. The exceptions were managers like Fergie, Clough, Wenger etc. It was written a while ago so I’m not sure how true it still is.

This is what I would expect, but not sure how they conducted this study. The wages might be the main correlation, but quite hard to suggest the manager would have no correlation. How do they even test this
 
This is what I would expect, but not sure how they conducted this study. The wages might be the main correlation, but quite hard to suggest the manager would have no correlation. How do they even test this
Plotted wage bills against league finishes? Over an individual season it fluctuates, but over a 3-5 year period the correlation is pretty distinct.
 
I think the poorer players you have, the bigger the influence a good coach can have. Like it's easier to make the 15th best squad in the league, play like the 10th best than making the 5th best play like league champions.

For the most part its just timing though. In my opinion there's 2 really elite coaches in football at the moment (Guardiola and Klopp), and there's about 7-8 who are very good. I think if you match one of the very good ones, with the right squad at the right time you'll do well.

The good clubs know when to get rid and when to hire one of them, depending on the life cycle of their squad.
 
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Anyone who thinks the manager makes no difference is in for a shock from Rangnick to Ten Hag I think. Not sure we'll actually be that good because our recruitment is incompetent, but there should be a lot less of the heads dropping bullshit we're now used to and clear instructions for all the players.

Problem is Spurs, Arsenal, Liverpool and City are all arguably stronger than last year so we might end up in more or less the same league position anyway.
 
They make a lot of difference but it's too contextual for this thread. No one can do shit from zero, but you can see managers teach and create special out of seemingly generic, or creating harmony. But a lot of those teacher-type managers are pretty stubborn. So the contextual kicks in when something already works/is built and someone tries to reinvent the wheel. Or when a teaching doesn't click with the team/competition, they might be too stubborn to change. Then there are more managing managers. If the wheel ain't broken, make sure it doesn't break. They can probably tweak some things here and there, but overall they focus on keeping things steady and only adjust where necessary or clearly an improvement. Those guys are pretty decent at either building on their predecessors (Del Bosque) and squad compositions (Ancelotti), but will not rebuild your squad (Koeman seems the managing type and there was no chance in hell he would do Pep-like things with Barcelona, while he will probably be excellent for The Netherlands again).

So, the managers make a lot of difference, but if you enter Van Gaal after Pep you might have a problem. If you put a managing type at United right now, I think it won't work either, because you cannot just buy 11 solid starters and 3-5 solid subs and even if you did, you'd probably need to build them into some type of cohesion first, too. They definitely need some type of teacher-manager. Rangnick probably was, too, but the team seemed very unwilling to cooperate with his plans. Perhaps he simply wasn't a match with the material, either, but after a little promise in the beginning, you could pretty certainly bet against United at the end...

Ten Hag seems to be somewhere in between, but closer to the teacher type. He fixes a lot of details and turns wingers into midfielders and vice versa. He creates a team plan where everyone has to pay attention to the "residual defense" and all that type of jargon, to have the whole team have the spirit and strategy to beat the opposition. He does seem very good at managing, too, though. While he seems very socially awkward at press conferences, he seems extremely social with the team and his colleagues, so I assume he very much thinks the press stuff is bullshit and is a horrible actor (though improving) at interacting with them.

I want to say I think this is the best fit for United right now, but I thought Rangnick would be a great in-betweener as well, so what do I know?
 
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SAF can win a title with some average players.

For me, Managers are a representing the best a team could be.
 
I think the poorer players you have, the bigger the influence a good coach can have. Like it's easier to make the 15th best squad in the league, play like the 10th best than making the 5th best play like league champions.

For the most part its just timing though. In my opinion there's 2 really elite coaches in football at the moment (Guardiola and Klopp), and there's about 7-8 who are very good. I think if you match one of the very good ones, with the right squad at the right time you'll do well.

The good clubs know when to get rid and when to hire one of them, depending on the life cycle of their squad.
Think this is spot on. When it comes to winning things, a lot of the time the best tactic is having the best players.
 
1) Under ETH 4th
2) No manager, players have to work it out, I.e. natural leader or captain, etc 8th
3) Reserve team coach, I.e. limited experience, basically Rangnick! 6th
4) Ole returns 6th
5) Best womens football manager 6th
6) Referee turns manager, maybe Collina for example 8th
7) Avid football fan with decent managerial experience in a non football environment - people person, modern management style 6th
8) As above, but autocratic and authoritarian style, think old school gravitas 8th
9) Avid football fan no managerial experience - nice guy 8th
10) Avid football fan no managerial experience - arse hole 12th

That is just looking at next season, I think the impact of a manager is much more noticeable over several years. With the first scenario you would improve each year and with the last scenario all the players and staff would want to leave and you would get relegated within 3-4 years.
 
I think the poorer players you have, the bigger the influence a good coach can have. Like it's easier to make the 15th best squad in the league, play like the 10th best than making the 5th best win the league.

For the most part its just timing though. In my opinion there's 2 really elite coaches in football at the moment (Guardiola and Klopp), and there's about 7-8 who are very good. I think if you match one of the very good ones, with the right squad at the right time you'll do well.

Guardiola has achieved so much that it's hard to question him, but he has also failed to achieve what could be expected for the money spent.

Always one that I'll struggle to accept as Elite with him having never earned his place as a football manager through success at lesser teams.

He has always had the best teams, biggest budget, etc. Effectively he has been in situations that most good managers would expect to succeed in.

Ranieri as another example winning with Leicester is surely more about the right quality of players falling in place at the right time as it is him. He hasn't actually achieved a huge amount in a very long managerial career and the Prem is a massive stand out highlight.
 
1) Under ETH 4th
2) No manager, players have to work it out, I.e. natural leader or captain, etc 8th
3) Reserve team coach, I.e. limited experience, basically Rangnick! 6th
4) Ole returns 6th
5) Best womens football manager 6th
6) Referee turns manager, maybe Collina for example 8th
7) Avid football fan with decent managerial experience in a non football environment - people person, modern management style 6th
8) As above, but autocratic and authoritarian style, think old school gravitas 8th
9) Avid football fan no managerial experience - nice guy 8th
10) Avid football fan no managerial experience - arse hole 12th

That is just looking at next season, I think the impact of a manager is much more noticeable over several years. With the first scenario you would improve each year and with the last scenario all the players and staff would want to leave and you would get relegated within 3-4 years.

I think you've done a decent job here and sensible summary at the end.
 
A manager can make a huge difference. While the success of any team will depend largely on the quality of the players, building a functioning team with a good winning culture requires a top manager.

There are situations with great teams like Peak Barca for example where a great manager wasn't really needed all the time, because they were on auto pilot basically for a decade. But think of United post fergie, and the rebuilt that was required, Klopp joining us instead of Liverpool would've resulted in huge change of fortune for United without a doubt.
 
As things stand and assuming we have a passable transfer window, I.e. 3 starters/ regulars where do you think we'd end up in the following scenarios:

1) Under ETH

I think top four, most likely 4th but potentially anywhere between 3-6th

2) No manager, players have to work it out, I.e. natural leader or captain, etc

I think mid table to lower down the table, having a player assume the responsibility (while still playing) would be a pretty combustible situation considering the context of United atm. I think this scenario would be worse than having a supporter manage.

3) Reserve team coach, I.e. limited experience, basically Rangnick!

8-10th, potentially a couple spots higher

4) Ole returns

Tricky one, he's proven he can motivate a side when coming in, and his fairly stripped back tactical approach lends itself to being employed and understood quickly, and there's still some very good individual talent in this United side. Because of his coaching history at the club though (his final season) I would think that would work against him and there would be a lack of belief as opposed to his first stint. I still think he'd be looking at around 6th

5) Best womens football manager

I'm not knowledgeable enough on this to put forward a fair answer. I know a few women coaches working in the womens game and they're fantastic, I think being the first woman coach in English football, at a club the size of Manchester United would invite an incredible amount of scrutiny and sadly vitriol too. They would face challenges that a male coach wouldn't.

6) Referee turns manager, maybe Collina for example

Depends on their knowledge of the game outside of legislation. Collina certainly has the presence though


7) Avid football fan with decent managerial experience in a non football environment - people person, modern management style

Pretty badly, management skills from certain sectors will be more applicable than others. Some office manager won't be particularly useful, but someone from an emergency response team would probably have a better grasp. Chefs would thrive. In this hypothetical if the person had good management skills and good people skills, mid table is plausible but also very likely for things to combust and to be very low down.


8) As above, but autocratic and authoritarian style, think old school gravitas

Mid table, maybe a couple of spots higher couple of spots lower, less likely to fully combust to the above scenario though


9) Avid football fan no managerial experience - nice guy

Mid to lower table, outside chance of relegation


10) Avid football fan no managerial experience - arse hole

Same as above but bigger chance of relegation


11) Pep
12) Klopp

First season top 4, second season strong challenge and high possibility of winning the league

On another thread I suggested a fan wouldn't do much worse than bottom half as that is over stating the impact of a manager, but am I understating the impact?

It's plausible. The amount a club spends on wages is usually the biggest indicator of where they'll finish, and if a supporter has basic knowledge and follows the club he's going to take over, at the very least he'll have a basic understanding of the players and where to put them. Things like opposition negation can be better trained from using your coaches, and a simple basic tactical approach doesn't mean it's a bad one. The initial danger will come from rectifying any big tactical blunders in the approach and positional play, and dealing with things like loss of form and injuries.

The longer the person is in said role the higher the chance the club will plummet. I'm also assuming in this hypothetical the players themselves are unaware of the managers complete lack of experience, as credibility is essential in management.
 
Well, even a fan could heavily lean on his assistants and then the quality of players will come into play. He'd have no credibility whatsoever and would lose the dressing room, but Ralf managed that. It doesn't lead to relegation just because the manager is shite. I don't see the point in stating a league position per every example given in the OP but it's clear the spread wouldn't be relegation at one end and unparalleled success at the other.

While there may be a strong correlation between money spent, wages and finishing position - I think our situation is such a difficult spot that actually it gives the manager a chance to shine.

If a new manager comes into replace Pep it is in some ways a difficult job because of the expectation that is set, but in terms of team structure, dressing room dynamics it is really just moulding that situation to place his own stamp on it. Whereas for ourselves a style of play has to be created from scratch and relationships need to be developed. That's where a Klopp, Pep and hopefully ETH would make a gigantic difference compared to your average manager.
 
Far less than people think. Quality of players is more important which is why it's vital we have a good window if we are even going to challenge for top 4.

Performance is correlated to wage bill as previous articles have shown (all seem to be behind pay walls).
 
A manager is, for me, the key to a successful side. Success being different for different teams.

I don't want to repeat what has been said on other threads but I honestly think some of our players who have been subject to dislike/hate based on performances and other issues has been down to management.

Likes of ravel and balotelli happen but I think a manger makes or breaks a player ultimately. A great example would for me be Best and doc. Behind the narrative that's been generally written about Best is a real story of a lad who needed a good manager.
 
This is what I would expect, but not sure how they conducted this study. The wages might be the main correlation, but quite hard to suggest the manager would have no correlation. How do they even test this

City have proven recently as have Madrid and Munich that if you have everything set up correctly, the managers role is maybe 10 or 15% important overall.

Coaching and match tactics are where they are needed... the rest is not important on a day to day running of the club.
 
There was a study done saying in most cases it doesn’t actually matter who the manager is, and that there was correlation of more than 90% between a team’s league finish and it’s wage bill. The exceptions were managers like Fergie, Clough, Wenger etc. It was written a while ago so I’m not sure how true it still is.
Yes, I posted the article from the FT a good while ago.
Here is someone's comments on that article.

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/do-football-managers-make-a-difference-
 
Put it this way, if Sir Alex came back, I'd wager United to finish top 3 this coming season with NO signing.
 
For United alot considering the last manager was Ole
 
The manager is an important part of the three-piece puzzle, but also arguably the least important. Sure, I'd take Fergie over the best set of players in the world, but managers like him are exceptionally rare for a reason.

If you have a well-run club that always makes sure to have a squad of great players, then you can win big things even with a mediocre manager in charge. But a brilliant manager can't win shit with a truly mediocre team. Not to mention, brilliant managers are once-a-decade. It's just that sometimes they arrive at the same time(Klopp and Pep).

This doesn't mean that you shouldn't care about hiring the best person for the job. But let's not forget that the foundation is the most important part.
 
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Guardiola has achieved so much that it's hard to question him, but he has also failed to achieve what could be expected for the money spent.

Always one that I'll struggle to accept as Elite with him having never earned his place as a football manager through success at lesser teams.

He has always had the best teams, biggest budget, etc. Effectively he has been in situations that most good managers would expect to succeed in.

Ranieri as another example winning with Leicester is surely more about the right quality of players falling in place at the right time as it is him. He hasn't actually achieved a huge amount in a very long managerial career and the Prem is a massive stand out highlight.
Fergie spent a load of money on players before he won the league and got lucky with the class of 92. Wenger and money the same. Usually the best spenders with the best managers win things. Look how Wenger dropped off once the money dried up, because of the ground.
 
Great players > Great Managers

Football has too many variables for the manager to be the most important figure. There is no substitute for player quality but only a great manager can dominate.
 
Makes big difference but not that big. Pep Guadiola would fail at United too
 
Anyone who thinks the manager makes no difference is in for a shock from Rangnick to Ten Hag I think. Not sure we'll actually be that good because our recruitment is incompetent, but there should be a lot less of the heads dropping bullshit we're now used to and clear instructions for all the players.

Problem is Spurs, Arsenal, Liverpool and City are all arguably stronger than last year so we might end up in more or less the same league position anyway.
I think you're in for a rude awakening unfortunately
 
Fergie spent a load of money on players before he won the league and got lucky with the class of 92. Wenger and money the same. Usually the best spenders with the best managers win things. Look how Wenger dropped off once the money dried up, because of the ground.

SAF built several teams, yes I guess with some financial advantage, but he developed amazing consistency. He changed the workings behind the scene.

He also managed to win a European Cup with Aberdeen and the Scottish league.

I don't think SAF can be questioned, but your point is fair.
 
I think the manager makes a lot less of a difference than the wider footballing world generally thinks.

There's so much else going on behind the scenes. There's so much that we, as fans, have no inkling about. We're tempted to think that a new manager automatically means a grand paradigm shift or whatever; but in this day and age, especially, the manager on his own has so little to say. In most cases, he picks the lineup, instructs those players on today's tactics, announces his transfer targets and (if you're lucky) oversees training some of the time. While the position is obviously of some importance, it is nowhere near as crucial as is believed by those of us who grew up in an age when the manager really did run the show. That went by the wayside ten or fifteen years ago. SAF was part of the last generation of managers who got to have full control over everything, and it's very likely that our current state of affairs has to do with the fact that we clung to that outdated notion too long.

There are managers who clearly make their mark, but they do it in ways that are no more significant than an impactful player is on a squad. It can matter quite a bit, but they're a cog in the mechanism. This is precisely why some clubs can continue to function more or less the same throughout multiple changes in management. That goes both for the clubs that succeed (e.g. Real Madrid) and the ones that don't (like us). The manager has some influence, but these days, it is generally dwarfed by that of the club's overall structure and hierarchy.

Where it does get to stand out is when you have someone truly outstanding or truly incompetent. We've seen how Klopp clearly made his mark when he arrived at Liverpool, and we've seen how Ole's practices clearly sullied things at United. In most cases, however, clubs just go on the way they have, and the head coach has a minor influence at best. PSG didn't fluctuate wildly when they got Tuchel, or Pochettino, nor will they when they get whoever comes next, unless that one is so outstanding that he proves to be the exception. In the vast majority of cases, the manager is of no greater importance to a club than its #1 player is. Once in a while, a club's #1 player is Ronaldo or Messi, and that clearly matters. Once in a while, a club's manager is SAF or Klopp or whoever, and that clearly matters. Most of the time, though, it's just somebody who's vaguely competent and it doesn't matter all that much because they are 5% of the whole.
 
There was a study done saying in most cases it doesn’t actually matter who the manager is, and that there was correlation of more than 90% between a team’s league finish and it’s wage bill. The exceptions were managers like Fergie, Clough, Wenger etc. It was written a while ago so I’m not sure how true it still is.

Difference will be on winning Europa / FA / League Cup, or Not winning. Preparation and on field changes, always make a difference on must win games.
 
I think you're in for a rude awakening unfortunately

If I am that's because Ten Hag isn't as good a manager as I think. A significant part of the mentality of the team comes from the manager.
 
Great managers can't turn shite into gold, but they can build the team to play the way they wanted and challenge for trophies, if given enough time and reasonable amount of budget to do so.

For example, if we appointed a great manager to coach our current pile of shite without any new players he wanted, we would still be shite and not much improvements there.

However, if he was with us like 4 years ago and spend the money we did over that period (500m) to pursue the players he wanted, and have the time to developed the team implementing his ideas, we would probably be challenging with City/Liverpool for titles/trophy now, rather than with West Ham/Leicester for top 6 finish.

I mean, 500m is alot, and enough to build a squad to challenge for title. Just see Klopp's Liverpool:


In (17-22):

VVD - 76m
Nunez - 68m
Diaz - 42m
Konate - 36m
Jota - 40m
Salah - 38m
Thiago - 20m
Alisson - 56m
Keita - 54m
Fabinho - 40m
Robertson - 8m

Tsimikas 11m
Shaqiri - 13m
Minamino 7m
Carvalho - 5m
Ramsay - 4m
Sepp VDB - 2m
Davies - 2m

Total: - 557m (avg 93m spend per season)

Out (17-22): 320m (avg 54m gain from players sales per season)

Net: 237m (avg 40m net spend per season)
 
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I used to believe that a manager had a small impact at the top level of football. I now understand that a manager has a huge impact on the success of a club.
 
Manager is more important than any single player IMO. Most important part of a team. Especially if you have an elite tier manager, you can be get over any player loss.