Herr Musk | Fascist

Pogue Mahone said:
But small government libertarianism is 100% the politics of Trump. It's a fairly central part of everything he believes in, politically. So if we're calling him a fascist then that is now the association we've created. Which I'm fine with, to be honest, because the alternative is arguing that he isn't actually a fascist after all.
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I think you're wrong here Pogue and that's why people keep piling on you.

He's not small government, he's authoritarian and wants total control. The social media companies bending the knee is one example of many.
He might share some libertarian perspectives but libertarians don't use isolationist measures like tariffs to achieve that, they let the market do it. Small government doesn't manipulate the market like that.
 
Crackers said:
I think you're wrong here Pogue and that's why people keep piling on you.

He's not small government, he's authoritarian and wants total control. The social media companies bending the knee is one example of many.
He might share some libertarian perspectives but libertarians don't use isolationist measures like tariffs to achieve that, they let the market do it. Small government doesn't manipulate the market like that.
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I’m prepared to die on the hill that Trump (and Musk) prefer small government and will implement at least some libertarian policies. That’s my opinion and I’m sticking to it. It’s such a minor issue in the grand scheme of things though. Because whatever policies they implement on that basis are by far the least worrying ones. Apart from, maybe, when they inevitably undermine the welfare safety net. That will be grim. Because it’s shoddy enough as it is already, stateside.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
I’m prepared to die on the hill that Trump (and Musk) prefer small government and will implement libertarian policies. That’s my opinion and I’m sticking to it. It’s such a minor issue in the grand scheme of things though. Because whatever policies they implement on that basis are by far the least worrying ones. Apart from, maybe, when they inevitably undermine the welfare safety net. That will be grim. Because it’s shoddy enough as it is already, stateside.
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You're making a molehill out of mountain in that case, but off you go
 
4bars said:
It feels so eerily like the history books/articles that I had been reading all my life and it had been 10-15 years that I had this sensation at it seems that we are at the final stages of a big event. I don't know in what form. If history repeats itself and fascism is beaten, I am sure in 50 years we will read that the sons and grandsons of Musk that owns Tesla and SpaceX makes no comments on this dad/granddad to these events like they do now with the porsche family or other business like Hugo boss. They will talked about Trump like the same way they talked about Hitler when it was elected. The way he stripped the rights of women, gender and sex differences and racially different, how they round up immigrants like they did with jews, how the conflicts in ukraine, palestine and maybe Taiwan shaped the events, how twitter/meta manipulated the population the same way Goebbels manipulated germans. How similar events to the night of the broken glass may end happening because the jan 6th people et al will feel so emboldened with what is happening with all this pardons, executive orders and nazi salutes (FFS) in a POTUS investiture ceremony out of the open and a big amount of other parallelisms.

People still ask the question how germany reached that point and we see in our faces how it reached that point. People that really wants it, people that is fine with it, a big chunk of people that doesn't understand or care and people that is in denial downplaying it because nuances

It had been so clearly to me for years but I thank you, @oneniltothearsenal , @HTG and others, which being so much intelligent, knowledgeable and articulate lays out the facts with what is going on
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This is about where I am at with it all.
Large amounts of people are being literally brainwashed.
Let’s hope they clock on before it’s too late.
 
Less than 24 hours ago, Sam Altman was one of 3 “tech geniuses” stood next to Trump at a news conference announcing AI infrastructure investment. Trump repeatedly called him one of the smartest people in the world.

Today, Musk is spending all his energy attacking Altman on X.

What a complete shitshow. Can’t believe this is going to be how that country is run for the next 4 years.
 
NYAS said:
Less than 24 hours ago, Sam Altman was one of 3 “tech geniuses” stood next to Trump at a news conference announcing AI infrastructure investment. Trump repeatedly called him one of the smartest people in the world.

Today, Musk is spending all his energy attacking Altman on X.

What a complete shitshow. Can’t believe this is going to be how that country is run for the next 4 years.
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Honestly let them fight. There's too many egos and competing goals within that group for it to last. Hopefully.
 
oneniltothearsenal said:
You live an ocean away so don't see or feel the consequences on a day to day basis. The reason comments like your 'Trump is just a small government libertarian' are so dangerous is because they normalize and downplay the huge step toward authoritarianism and fascism that Trump and his cronies (including Musk) represent. The way these far right-wing views take hold on a population is because they are constantly being minimized and excused by ignorant comments like 'Trump is just a small government libertarian' or 'Musk is just an edgelord'.

The world is more ripe for this far-right resurgence in part because a lot of cultural memory has been lost in the last 20 years. 25 years ago, Musk could never have got away with a Nazi salute on stage without being completely ostracized because there were still enough people alive then that lived through WWII and had first hand experience of fascism so they were much more in tune with the similarities. We lost a lot of those people in the last 25 years so the population now doesn't have that first hand memory of what authoritarianism and fascism were really like. So it becomes much easier for the far-right to manipulate public opinion, especially after asserting control over social media, by minimizing and passing it off as "just libertarianism" or "just being an edgelord". All that does is normalize these far right ideas even more and serves to mask the threat that has emerged.
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Well said.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Now you’ve completely lost me.
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It was basically small government was just rhetoric on their part and I gave examples why, but you do what you do. You split an inconsequential hair of one of the points and then just went with that.

It's part of why people are quoting you over and over and basically repeating themselves.
 
Trump and Musk want small government in some areas and big government in other areas. Most likely they will increase military spending, undertake huge deportation programs, heavily subsidize Musks companies, beef up border security, impose restrictions on what companies are allowed to do when it comes to DEI, seek federal restrictions on abortions and contraception, etc. None of that can reasonably be considered small government - it’s the opposite.

It’s more accurate to say they want low taxes and little regulation.
 
moses said:
It was basically small government was just rhetoric on their part and I gave examples why, but you do what you do. You split an inconsequential hair of one of the points and then just went with that.

It's part of why people are quoting you over and over and basically repeating themselves.
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I don’t think it’s just rhetoric on their part. And nothing you said convinced me otherwise. I believe that Trump, with the tech bros in his ear, will implement a lot of small government/libertarian policies this term. Hence I’m dying on that fecking hill. I’m genuinely surprised this is a controversial point to make! I may be proved wrong in time about this. We’ll see.

Where I agree with you is that would be absurd to sum up their politics as just small government/libertarian. There’s a ton of more important shit to think about. And you very eloquently educated me on how even classical definitions of fascism are more nuanced and complicated than I thought. I never once argued that they weren’t fascists and you’ve left me more convinced about this than ever. So job done, I guess
 
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Pogue Mahone said:
I don’t think it’s just rhetoric on their part. And nothing you said convinced me otherwise. I believe that Trump, with the tech bros in his ear, will implement a lot of small government/libertarian policies this term. Hence I’m dying on that fecking hill. I’m genuinely surprised this is a controversial point to make! I may be proved wrong in time about this. We’ll see.

Where I agree with you is that would be absurd to sum up their politics as just small government/libertarian. There’s a ton of more important shit to think about. And you very eloquently educated me on how even classical definitions of fascism are more nuanced and complicated than I thought. I never once argued that they weren’t fascists and you’ve left me more convinced about this than ever. So job done, I guess
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It's good that you can see the nuances here but we all still think you’re underestimating how much influence the more radical, authoritarian factions around Trump will have, especially given how they've openly stated they're going to enact some very dangerous policies.

The tech bros might push some small-government or libertarian ideas, but they’re not the only voices in his ear. The more extreme elements—the ones who’ve been organizing and planning for this moment for years—have way more to gain and a lot more leverage to push their agenda. Trump and Twitler will hop on board as they're egotists who see the appeal of being a strongman, and the rest will follow to stay on his food side.

Trump’s already shown he’s not exactly committed to libertarian ideals, with things like tariffs, bullying companies into falling in line, or pushing authoritarian policies. And when you combine that with the broader plan from christonationalists to consolidate power, “small government” ends up just being a distraction measure. In practice, the policies are going to concentrate state power and hurt the most vulnerable—especially WHEN welfare gets gutted.

So yeah, maybe a few libertarian-esque policies will show up, but the bigger picture is way more dangerous and dystopian. That’s why it’s not just a hill I’m willing to die on—it’s the whole mountain I’m shouting from.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
I don’t think it’s just rhetoric on their part. And nothing you said convinced me otherwise. I believe that Trump, with the tech bros in his ear, will implement a lot of small government/libertarian policies this term. Hence I’m dying on that fecking hill. I’m genuinely surprised this is a controversial point to make! I may be proved wrong in time about this. We’ll see.

Where I agree with you is that would be absurd to sum up their politics as just small government/libertarian. There’s a ton of more important shit to think about. And you very eloquently educated me on how even classical definitions of fascism are more nuanced and complicated than I thought. I never once argued that they weren’t fascists and you’ve left me more convinced about this than ever. So job done, I guess
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They want small government where it benefits them - Things like employment rights, environmental legislation for businesses, in general any oversight or limits on business activities.

They also want big government, unsurprisingly, where it benefits them too. Musk admitted, on camera, he set up the boring company to leech state funds away from high speed rail, just so people would keep buying his cars. He has probably recieved more 'welfare' in publick money than any human being in history. Only paypal of all his companies has not been subsidised by government.

Expect massive cash injections for things like AI and weapon research, most of which will dissapear into the pickits of very rich people.
 
This thread sums up nicely the opposition towards popularism, a lot of infighting and little unity in fighting the common enemy.
 
Rams said:
This thread sums up nicely the opposition towards popularism, a lot of infighting and little unity in fighting the common enemy.
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aye. i’m amazed at the energy that goes into it all. i’m such a high flyer because i make quick decisions and move on to the next thing. if musk and trump were to give away their fortunes and fight for world peace, i would then spend time to consider removing them from the “bell end wankers not worth thinking about” group i’ve currently filed them in. i’m not going to bother nitpicking on the whats or whys of them being in there, they have a body of work that shows they belong there.
 
RedDevil@84 said:
And for the first time, the ultra rich men seem to be directly involved with the President/Government in a quite overt manner. Usually it is just the lobbyists doing the work for them. But now all of them are there visibly. And Musk is now sitting in white house and has an official white house email address.
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Not for the first time exactly. This was pretty much exactly the situation the US were in at the beginning of the 20th century. Funnily, Henry Ford was an all-out nazi actually: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Ford#Antisemitism_and_The_Dearborn_Independent.
 
Crackers said:
It's good that you can see the nuances here but we all still think you’re underestimating how much influence the more radical, authoritarian factions around Trump will have, especially given how they've openly stated they're going to enact some very dangerous policies.

The tech bros might push some small-government or libertarian ideas, but they’re not the only voices in his ear. The more extreme elements—the ones who’ve been organizing and planning for this moment for years—have way more to gain and a lot more leverage to push their agenda. Trump and Twitler will hop on board as they're egotists who see the appeal of being a strongman, and the rest will follow to stay on his food side.

Trump’s already shown he’s not exactly committed to libertarian ideals, with things like tariffs, bullying companies into falling in line, or pushing authoritarian policies. And when you combine that with the broader plan from christonationalists to consolidate power, “small government” ends up just being a distraction measure. In practice, the policies are going to concentrate state power and hurt the most vulnerable—especially WHEN welfare gets gutted.

So yeah, maybe a few libertarian-esque policies will show up, but the bigger picture is way more dangerous and dystopian. That’s why it’s not just a hill I’m willing to die on—it’s the whole mountain I’m shouting from.
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Not gonna lie. That’s a zinger of a closing line!
 
Pogue Mahone said:
I’m prepared to die on the hill that Trump (and Musk) prefer small government and will implement at least some libertarian policies.
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I think they would argue that size doesn't matter (which is hilarious because both have very small penises) as long as they achieve as much power as possible. Elon needed government to get wealthy, and Trump needs total control to stay out of jail.

So I don't think they stand for small government at all. They'll seek to limit the parts of government that do not directly benefit them, and expand or control areas where they see an opportunity for power.
 
I’d like to say I’m shocked at how much gaslighting there is from the magats about this, including English people that enamoured by it, but it was fully expected. Cretinous morons that need to go the way of the original nazis.
 
I just don’t know what he was thinking, even in a room full of republicans, whipping out the nazi salute like that is one hell of a risk. Was there even a slight smattering of boos? :lol:

It’s quite possibly the most brazen display of racism, on such a mass scale that I can remember. You don’t just pull that out without being sure it’ll land. I don’t really pay attention to US politics, but I think I probably underestimated just how far gone the American right is if they're literally cheering fecking nazi salutes.
 
Sweet Square said:
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i'm sorry, maybe that is badly clipped or out of context clip. So i'll give him some leeway and say he knows better and might've spoken better in the podcast.

But to start with a serious examination of the word in a heavily German interpretation is so poor it stretches absurdity. His interpretation excludes critical reasons for why the Italian version came into existence. His interpretation also limits what can be defined as fascism to such a narrow scope of historical context that i'd suggest it borders on "fascism can never exist in the modern age". Lastly, whether states fell to fascism or kept it out also requires deep examination of the socio-political, technological and economic issues within the individual state. Austrian fascism had unique characteristics that were not German, British conservatives either fell into fascism or worked within the system to preserve democratic rule and blunted a fascist takeover. Finklestein is bordering on a "Grand Theory" of fascism in that clip that limits inquiry into the topic.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
I’m prepared to die on the hill that Trump (and Musk) prefer small government and will implement at least some libertarian policies. That’s my opinion and I’m sticking to it. It’s such a minor issue in the grand scheme of things though. Because whatever policies they implement on that basis are by far the least worrying ones. Apart from, maybe, when they inevitably undermine the welfare safety net. That will be grim. Because it’s shoddy enough as it is already, stateside.
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Not in a million years will Trump want a small government as long as he himself is the head of it. He only wants a small government when it's led by the Democrats. Besides, Libertarianism is based on a strong belief in free will and everyones right to live their life as they want with minimal disruption from the state. For Trump, however, this only includes certain groups, while others are excluded from the same rights. Trump does more than anything have a winner-takes-all mentality, very much in line with the worldview of a fascist.
 
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