Herr Musk | Fascist

Mike Smalling said:
And the antisemitism, surely? It was rampant at the time, and not only in Germany. Hitler enhanced it with his rhetoric, but it was definitely there already.
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Yeah, but if you say racism it becomes less ideological and just the othering that people are willing to embrace.

It wasn't just the Jewish people the Nazis hate but their historical and literary association with usury combined with the downturn in the German economy was an easy sell. It's still the same playbook to varying degrees in lots of countries.
 
JPRouve said:
And greed, in the sense that many thought that a discriminatory society would benefit them personally. That part is extremely relevant today.
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Greed at the top. Surviving a legitimate hardship at the bottom.

Again, yes, easily seen in many modern societies.
 
Eleven-Eighteen said:
How strange of the ADL to come out in support of Musk and say that it wasn't actually a Nazi salute. Definitely looked like it in images. The video makes him look as clumsy as he always does on stage in political rallies, but it's still pretty unmistakeably a Nazi salute...?
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The ADL have never cared about anti-semitism, or any form of bigotry really. Their only concern was muzzling any criticism of Israel.
 
moses said:
Greed at the top. Surviving a legitimate hardship at the bottom.

Again, yes, easily seen in many modern societies.
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Greed at the top and middle. Many people have enough while not being anywhere near wealthy but want more and aren't in any actual hardship.

I don't know if that second sentence makes sense.
 
Kaos said:
The ADL have never cared about anti-semitism, or any form of bigotry really. Their only concern was muzzling any criticism of Israel.
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Then this is perfectly on strategy. Because keeping American leadership close is the most pro-Israeli thing one can do!

Sad state of affairs all around
 
JPRouve said:
Greed at the top and middle. Many people have enough while not being anywhere near wealthy but want more and aren't in any actual hardship.

I don't know if that second sentence makes sense.
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:lol: Mine? Yes, clumsy.

Just that structurally that scenario still applies.

But I think the hardship and desperation of the bottom does help. Often legitimate issues are commandeered and manipulated.
 
moses said:
Yeah, but if you say racism it becomes less ideological and just the othering that people are willing to embrace.

It wasn't just the Jewish people the Nazis hate but their historical and literary association with usury combined with the downturn in the German economy was an easy sell. It's still the same playbook to varying degrees in lots of countries.
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Yeah, the othering is essential, of course. Jews just became most prominent, because of their position in society and the religious link to the death of Christ.

But to bring it back to my original point about ideological purity. Hitler hated the Jews, but I'm not sure Trump hates anyone (with the possible exception of Rosie O'Donnell). Trump will rail against Mexican immigrants, but he would gladly have someone in his cabinet that came from that background, as long they are MAGA.
 
Mike Smalling said:
Yeah, the othering is essential, of course. Jews just became most prominent, because of their position in society and the religious link to the death of Christ.

But to bring it back to my original point about ideological purity. Hitler hated the Jews, but I'm not sure Trump hates anyone (with the possible exception of Rosie O'Donnell). Trump will rail against Mexican immigrants, but he would gladly have someone in his cabinet that came from that background, as long they are MAGA.
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Yeah Trump is not an ideologue. I fully agree.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Guilty as charged on the contrarian thing but that's usually after seeing what the consensus is then going against it. The angle I took here was different. Look at the timing of it. It was a hot take immediately after the video got posted. It genuinely wasn't an attempt to antagonise or wind people up (for once!). It was an off the cuff explanation for something that looked utterly bizarre, fuelled by my long term fixation on Musk constantly behaving like a massive dork whenever he's on a stage. I then got wound up by a bunch of posts about how I was ignoring or defending his politics, or being a centrist dad, or whatever. Which was unfair, in my opinion, but it was thin skinned of me to get irritated by them. Fair point. I'm obviously not cornering the market on being overly sensitive but I will at least admit it.
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This is close to personal growth from you Pogue.
 
moses said:
Ah. I think the struggle at the bottom is an important factor in mobilising support.

And yes, the centre and middle classes I dislike and distrust more than I vocalise in here!
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The struggle at the bottom is an important factor but I don't think that the bottom is largely attracted by the ideologies. I think that despair and supporting whatever looks like change are the main motivations.

Now the strange thing about this is that the only people thave have a good reason to want change support their tormentor without realizing it. Take Bezos as an example, he actively tries to drastically reduce the amount of workers at Amazon and replace them with automation, he is an example of why the bottom class will struggle to find employment while he gets wealthier every seconds of his life.
 
Was looking at Reddit last night and purposely ventured in to the pits of it to see what the conservative reaction is, and quelle surprise, its excuse after excuse.

The bullshit Roman salute mentioned a lot, some other kind of salute that’s American and I forget the name of, lots of mentions of how he’s autistic (as if autistic people are throwing nazi salutes everywhere), loads of mentions of how he’s just trolling and they love it, and then some people just brazenly saying they don’t care.

Absolutely infuriating mob of cnuts dragging us in to a horror show.
 
JPRouve said:
The struggle at the bottom is an important factor but I don't think that the bottom is largely attracted by the ideologies. I think that despair and supporting whatever looks like change are the main motivations.

Now the strange thing about this is that the only people thave have a good reason to want change support their tormentor without realizing it. Take Bezos as an example, he actively tries to drastically reduce the amount of workers at Amazon and replace them with automation, he is an example of why the bottom class will struggle to find employment while he gets wealthier every seconds of his life.
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Struggle and despair are connected. If everyone is comfortable you won't get the boots on the street?

The second paragraph is again, age old. And the biggest and seemingly unsolvable problem for the left. Turkeys continue to vote for Christmas. The answers are seemingly so complex very few people are awake by the end of them.
 
There’s no denying he’s a wack job

But having seen the clip numerous times, I think he just got caught up in the moment and made his expression awkward and repeated it too those behind him.

Wouldn’t harm for him too apologise for causing unnecessary offence and that he in no way wants to be associated in that way, but he’s Stubborn, if he doesn’t think he’s done wrong then he’ll be defiant.

It certainly wasn’t a good look, and he should atleast acknowledge that but we know he won’t

But hay, the world keeps spinning and so do we with it
 
TheLiverBird said:
There’s no denying he’s a wack job

But having seen the clip numerous times, I think he just got caught up in the moment and made his expression awkward and repeated it too those behind him.

Wouldn’t harm for him too apologise for causing unnecessary offence and that he in no way wants to be associated in that way, but he’s Stubborn, if he doesn’t think he’s done wrong then he’ll be defiant.

It certainly wasn’t a good look, and he should atleast acknowledge that but we know he won’t

But hay, the world keeps spinning and so do we with it
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Don't you just hate it when you get caught up in the moment and double Nazi salute. Happens to the best of us.
 
JPRouve said:
The struggle at the bottom is an important factor but I don't think that the bottom is largely attracted by the ideologies. I think that despair and supporting whatever looks like change are the main motivations.

Now the strange thing about this is that the only people thave have a good reason to want change support their tormentor without realizing it. Take Bezos as an example, he actively tries to drastically reduce the amount of workers at Amazon and replace them with automation, he is an example of why the bottom class will struggle to find employment while he gets wealthier every seconds of his life.
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The next tech revolution will be coming for the middle/upper class jobs. So that’s going to be interesting.
 
TheLiverBird said:
There’s no denying he’s a wack job

But having seen the clip numerous times, I think he just got caught up in the moment and made his expression awkward and repeated it too those behind him.

Wouldn’t harm for him too apologise for causing unnecessary offence and that he in no way wants to be associated in that way, but he’s Stubborn, if he doesn’t think he’s done wrong then he’ll be defiant.

It certainly wasn’t a good look, and he should atleast acknowledge that but we know he won’t

But hay, the world keeps spinning and so do we with it
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So the constant account boosting and retweeting of far right and white supremacists is also being "caught up in the moment"?

The man did a Nazi salute in front of the whole world. Twice. Come on now.
 
TheLiverBird said:
I think he just got caught up in the moment
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I hope nobody asks you to do a best man's speech.

"I have no idea how that happened, I didn't even realise I knew the words to 'Deutschland, Deutschland über alles'', I think I just got caught up in the moment"
 
Imagine having paid tens of thousands for a vehicle that is synonymous with this fascist.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
The next tech revolution will be coming for the middle/upper class jobs. So that’s going to be interesting.
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Yeah. It's interesting but also worrisome because if you push enough people into a corner things will go extremely badly. Currently we are drasticaly reducing manpower in services and manufacturing, what is the mass supposed to do in order to make a living if we continue in that direction? And with more time the least people are required to manage automates and computers. Even in the creative world, we now have AI potentially taking over.
 
Red meat to the extreme right, plausible deniability to the rest.

The angry lip bite gives it away to me. As if that was the facial expression he chose to accompany "my heart goes out to you"

Man thinks he’s a subtle troll and oh so clever, but he’s a transparent man-child.
 
All of these excuses and explanations will ultimately be meaningless, when this is the image that came out of it:

e0b7f9651950ee9a6ab84eb581658f4d


Look at his fecking face :lol: I find some small joy in the fact that this image will exist forever.
 
JPRouve said:
Agreed. But the point that people are making are exclusionary as far as I understand but maybe I'm misreading them.
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I can only remark on my own point of view but I certainly didn't intend for it to be exclusionary. There's of course level of fascist thinking and he could he certainly be all three or a mix of fascist, trolling, money grabbing.

The key point I was trying to address is I don't see the importance of his motivation. I don't think he did that to promote fascism I think he did it to troll and position himself however the action is the action and his motivations don't really change anything. I don't think a focus on personality really helps anything but I appreciate this is a thread for that so I'm needlessly shouting into the wind.
 
JPRouve said:
Yeah. It's interesting but also worrisome because if you push enough people into a corner things will go extremely badly. Currently we are drasticaly reducing manpower in services and manufacturing, what is the mass supposed to do in order to make a living if we continue in that direction? And with more time the least people are required to manage automates and computers. Even in the creative world, we now have AI potentially taking over.
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That’s what I’m talking about. Automation wiped out most of the working class jobs. AI will do the same to the middle/upper class. Be interesting to see if that has more of an impact on the tech bros driving this revolution. Or will even the best educated turkeys still continue to vote for Christmas?
 
Smores said:
I can only remark on my own point of view but I certainly didn't intend for it to be exclusionary. There's of course level of fascist thinking and he could he certainly be all three or a mix of fascist, trolling, money grabbing.

The key point I was trying to address is I don't see the importance of his motivation. I don't think he did that to promote fascism I think he did it to troll and position himself however the action is the action and his motivations don't really change anything. I don't think a focus on personality really helps anything but I appreciate this is a thread for that so I'm needlessly shouting into the wind.
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But that's the thing. Why do you think that a man that has literally been promoting fascism every day for the past 4 years, had a different motivation for his fascist gesture? I genuinely don't think that it's impossible but if you try to sell me that idea, you will have to give me a solid reasoning. And I disagree with the idea that the motivation isn't important because he is a propagandist, he promotes politicians and policies that have a direct consequence on peoples' lives and it's important that people understand fully who he is and what he stands for. In fact it's partially this strange idea that not focusing on the personalities and core ideologies of these people is good or helpful that has led us to the current situation globally, putting our heads in the sand isn't going to fix anything.
 
There's some serious head-in-the-sand mental gymnastics happening while the fascists conga line dance into the office of the most powerful global regime in human history.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
That’s what I’m talking about. Automation wiped out most of the working class jobs. AI will do the same to the middle/upper class. Be interesting to see if that has more of an impact on the tech bros driving this revolution. Or will even the best educated turkeys still continue to vote for Christmas?
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Just putting this out there but I would like to imagine musk is at least somewhat aware of the need for people to have disposable income as a result of needing people to buy/finance Tesla cars.

It's other tech giants I'm concerned about because while data correlates with advertising of consumer goods it doesn't necessarily involve the same direct link between business and consumer. They aren't selling products directly.
 
JPRouve said:
But that's the thing. Why do you think that a man that has literally been promoting fascism every day for the past 4 years, had a different motivation for his fascist gesture? I genuinely don't think that it's impossible but if you try to sell me that idea, you will have to give me a solid reasoning. And I disagree with the idea that the motivation isn't important because he is a propagandist, he promotes politicians and policies that have a direct consequence on peoples' lives and it's important that people understand fully who he is and what he stands for. In fact it's partially this strange idea that not focusing on the personalities and core ideologies of these people is good or helpful that has led us to the current situation globally, putting our heads in the sand isn't going to fix anything.
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Oh come on all his behaviour now or prior to the last four years screams troll and grifter it's not some elusive theory. It's also odd to claim them as a defence as if doing those things whilst spouting fascist talking points is a superior position to just being a fascist, it isn't. The grift at this scale is a relatively new phenomen and it's equally as important to understand because we are heading into a corpocracy/plutocracy if we're not already and it'll be easier to turn the masses against that than claims of fascism which they just don't believe or care about.

It's fine we disagree on the importance of character assassination. I think we both agree on the importance of treating people acting like a fascist as a fascist whatever the underlying cause.
 
I think there’s a lot of Karens on here

The amount of good Elon has done in the world

Surely he’s aloud to be a Nazi Fascist if he wants? He’s earned it no?

I hope this is a good enough argument
 
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