Hello Mr. President, I'm Non-Binary!

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Non-binary student calls Obama out on lack of progress for transgender rights
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According to Maria Munir 'the T in LGBT has been ignored for a very long time'

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Transgender campaigner Maria Munir came out as non-binary to Barack Obama
A student and gender equality campaigner has been praised for coming out as non-binary on live television, before telling US President Barack Obama of the wish that he and David Cameron would “take transgender people seriously”.

An emotional Maria Munir, 20, whose parents were not yet aware of this, used the town-hall style event in central London as an opportunity to urge the US President to do more for transgender rights.

Maria told Mr Obama: “Now I'm about to do something terrifying… I'm coming out to you as a non-binary person, which means that I don't fit… I'm from a Pakistani-Muslim background which inevitably has cultural implications.”Stonewall’s Senior Communications Officer Matt Horwood told The Independent: “We applaud Maria Munir's courage in coming out so publicly, and agree that there is still lots to do to ensure non-binary people are accepted without exception.

“Part of this involves amending the definition of gender in the Equality Act in order to be inclusive of and protect the non-binary community. This is something that Stonewall has been clear on and pushed for.

“Recent law changes in states like North Carolina and Mississippi demonstrate how quickly equal rights can be lost, and while we should celebrate the progress that LGBT equality has made, we must not be complacent or ignore the work that lies ahead,” he said.

The US President has come under fire recently for not doing more to counter the so-called “Bathroom Bill”, which requires transgender students to use bathrooms according to their biological sex.

He explained that his hands are tied when it comes to state law because of the way government works in the US, but during a press conference with Mr Cameron he made his thoughts on the matter clear, stating: ”The laws that have been passed there are wrong and should be overturned.”

PA contributed to this report.
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I'd like to believe I'm open minded, but Non Binary? She says as a non binary she has no rights in the UK, what sorts of discrimination might she be facing?

Also, she wasn't happy with the response she received from Obama...what did she expect him to say?

'Come up here...you are so incredibly brave...'

Or

'Hold up, let me change the federal system of rule we have'

Not making light of LGBT issues, they are very real and complex...But in this instance, I think she's an attention wh0re...what with her standing for some sort of local elections in the UK...this should get her plenty of free publicity.

But then again, I am in my mid thirties and cynical as hell.
 
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I don't think Obama is the most popular person in the South. He hasn't necessarily been leading the charge against the bathroom bills, but private sector forces seem to be putting enough pressure on North Carolina. Mississippi is a lost cause; what can you really take away from Mississippi to affect change? And, maybe if Obama was speaking out frequently about the laws, that may have the effect of turning the discussion in the south from a civil rights issue into a states rights issue, which would then make it all a lost cause. Maybe he realizes that if he simply gets out of the way, the political, social, and economic forces already putting immense pressure on North Carolina are going to better affect change.

He is right about progress. There probably is a long way to go, but the progress their community has seen of late is impressive, especially when in light of the fact that she is asking an African American about social progress.
 
Don't non-binary people have the same rights as whatever biological gender they are? Moreover, this non-binary thing is relatively new and affects very small minority of people, I don't know if laws should be changed to suit such a small amount of people without some clear research on the issue. I barely understand it myself and I imagine politicians to be much the same. I think just claiming to be neither male or female undermines people who are intersex.

Ill stop here because I don't know enough about the science and evidence behind this subject. If its a legitimate thing, fine, let's open a debate/have a discussion about it.
 
horsechoker said:
Don't non-binary people have the same rights as whatever biological gender they are? Moreover, this non-binary thing is relatively new and affects very small minority of people, I don't know if laws should be changed to suit such a small amount of people without some clear research on the issue. I barely understand it myself and I imagine politicians to be much the same. I think just claiming to be neither male or female undermines people who are intersex.

Ill stop here because I don't know enough about the science and evidence behind this subject. If its a legitimate thing, fine, let's open a debate/have a discussion about it.
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I tend to agree and whilst I'll back all minorities for equal rights this seems to be asking for political influence to push through legislation to force more rapid societal acceptance which is a clear case of the tail wagging the dog. The world has come a long way in my lifetime in terms of gender equality, acceptance of homosexuality, reduction of racism etc but we're still a long way from perfect and have a lot further to go and that will have to encompass transgender issues as well. That acceptance must come from society however and it tends to do so through a natural attrition whereby the old who have hard bitten prejudices against such issues are dying out and the new generation is far more exposed to the issue at hand and far more accepting. Governmental attempts to shortcut that beyond legislating for the basic rights to equality for all are usually doomed to fail.

It's also a very, very small minority issue and whilst I'm sure it's of pressing importance if you are living it, I'm also pretty damned sure there's far more pressing global issues that the leaders of our nations should be addressing to improve all our lives.
 
I (wrongly) assumed that Bathroom Bill was a nickname for Clinton.
 
:lol: I should learn to read more closely, mate.
 
It's not really related to this particular person's announcement but has anyone noticed that some people who identify themselves as non-binary say that they flip between being more masculine and feminine - being gender fluid? I just find the notion difficult to grasp because when some flip between being more masculine and feminine they do it in relation to what they wear and how they act - which just maintains the stereotypes of male and female, and effectively goes completely against what non-binary is meant to stand for.

But, I'll respect those who have made this choice to be non-binary. As long as they're not putting another person in harms way or doing something illegal then what right does anyone have to tell someone else what they can or can't do.
 
Sassy Colin said:
Sorry, I must have missed something, what is this new term 'non-binary'?
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MJJ said:
The feck is a non-binary?
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Gender Wiki (yes, it exists) tells me:

Non-binary gender describes any gender identity which does not fit within the binary of male and female. Those with non-binary genders can feel that they:
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horsechoker said:
Don't non-binary people have the same rights as whatever biological gender they are? Moreover, this non-binary thing is relatively new and affects very small minority of people, I don't know if laws should be changed to suit such a small amount of people without some clear research on the issue. I barely understand it myself and I imagine politicians to be much the same. I think just claiming to be neither male or female undermines people who are intersex.

Ill stop here because I don't know enough about the science and evidence behind this subject. If its a legitimate thing, fine, let's open a debate/have a discussion about it.
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I suppose their argument is that they have no rights if they are discriminated against because of the non-binary status.
 
Does simply feeling a certain way mean the world and laws should change specially for you?

What's the difference between saying that and saying that you feel like a llama and therefore rights should change for llamas?

Genuine questions.
 
As Penna's quote suggests, it's a term that encompasses about 384 different things which are sort of the same but not...

I identify as non-binary and have done for about twelve years now - since I was 14. Though, we didn't have a word for it back then - just said 'I'm male and female' and people seemed to get it quickly enough after being around me and seeing me switch from having a beer and a kickabout with guys and having girly teenage gossips with my female friends.

Best description I can offer is it's a more extreme version of a 'tomboy' or a bloke who's 'in touch with his feminine side'

Basically, I can fit in to either gender role reasonably well but don't fit in to either as well as most do. When I'm surrounded by blokes, I feel like the odd one out, as I'm quite girly and when I'm surrounded by girls I feel the odd one out for being a bit blokey. It sometimes confuses heterosexual people, because they can't decide if they fancy me or not, as I'm half of what appeals to them, so some straight men find themselves wondering why they feel mildly attracted to me and some straight women wonder why they're only mildly attracted to me. Which is possibly why any partner I have had for a reasonable amount of time has been bisexual. My favourite colour's green and I'm rather fond of lemon drizzle cake... Sorry, just enjoying talking about myself - got a bit carried away...
 
DiseaseOfTheAge said:
As Penna's quote suggests, it's a term that encompasses about 384 different things which are sort of the same but not...

I identify as non-binary and have done for about twelve years now - since I was 14. Though, we didn't have a word for it back then - just said 'I'm male and female' and people seemed to get it quickly enough after being around me and seeing me switch from having a beer and a kickabout with guys and having girly teenage gossips with my female friends.

Best description I can offer is it's a more extreme version of a 'tomboy' or a bloke who's 'in touch with his feminine side'

Basically, I can fit in to either gender role reasonably well but don't fit in to either as well as most do. When I'm surrounded by blokes, I feel like the odd one out, as I'm quite girly and when I'm surrounded by girls I feel the odd one out for being a bit blokey. It sometimes confuses heterosexual people, because they can't decide if they fancy me or not, as I'm half of what appeals to them, so some straight men find themselves wondering why they feel mildly attracted to me and some straight women wonder why they're only mildly attracted to me. Which is possibly why any partner I have had for a reasonable amount of time has been bisexual. My favourite colour's green and I'm rather fond of lemon drizzle cake... Sorry, just enjoying talking about myself - got a bit carried away...
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Very helpful, thanks for sharing
 
DiseaseOfTheAge said:
As Penna's quote suggests, it's a term that encompasses about 384 different things which are sort of the same but not...

I identify as non-binary and have done for about twelve years now - since I was 14. Though, we didn't have a word for it back then - just said 'I'm male and female' and people seemed to get it quickly enough after being around me and seeing me switch from having a beer and a kickabout with guys and having girly teenage gossips with my female friends.

Best description I can offer is it's a more extreme version of a 'tomboy' or a bloke who's 'in touch with his feminine side'

Basically, I can fit in to either gender role reasonably well but don't fit in to either as well as most do. When I'm surrounded by blokes, I feel like the odd one out, as I'm quite girly and when I'm surrounded by girls I feel the odd one out for being a bit blokey. It sometimes confuses heterosexual people, because they can't decide if they fancy me or not, as I'm half of what appeals to them, so some straight men find themselves wondering why they feel mildly attracted to me and some straight women wonder why they're only mildly attracted to me. Which is possibly why any partner I have had for a reasonable amount of time has been bisexual. My favourite colour's green and I'm rather fond of lemon drizzle cake... Sorry, just enjoying talking about myself - got a bit carried away...
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Interesting to hear. Thanks for being open about it. Is it not more of a personality thing? I think a lot of people swing in different ways personality-wise. Sometimes I'll feel reserved and awkward around new people, and sometimes I'm the most outgoing person there. Could it not be similar but involving gender related traits or is that undermining it somewhat?
 
DiseaseOfTheAge said:
As Penna's quote suggests, it's a term that encompasses about 384 different things which are sort of the same but not...

I identify as non-binary and have done for about twelve years now - since I was 14. Though, we didn't have a word for it back then - just said 'I'm male and female' and people seemed to get it quickly enough after being around me and seeing me switch from having a beer and a kickabout with guys and having girly teenage gossips with my female friends.

Best description I can offer is it's a more extreme version of a 'tomboy' or a bloke who's 'in touch with his feminine side'

Basically, I can fit in to either gender role reasonably well but don't fit in to either as well as most do. When I'm surrounded by blokes, I feel like the odd one out, as I'm quite girly and when I'm surrounded by girls I feel the odd one out for being a bit blokey. It sometimes confuses heterosexual people, because they can't decide if they fancy me or not, as I'm half of what appeals to them, so some straight men find themselves wondering why they feel mildly attracted to me and some straight women wonder why they're only mildly attracted to me. Which is possibly why any partner I have had for a reasonable amount of time has been bisexual. My favourite colour's green and I'm rather fond of lemon drizzle cake... Sorry, just enjoying talking about myself - got a bit carried away...
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Thanks DOTA.

Always hits home as soon as someone actually has first hand experience.
 
DiseaseOfTheAge said:
As Penna's quote suggests, it's a term that encompasses about 384 different things which are sort of the same but not...

I identify as non-binary and have done for about twelve years now - since I was 14. Though, we didn't have a word for it back then - just said 'I'm male and female' and people seemed to get it quickly enough after being around me and seeing me switch from having a beer and a kickabout with guys and having girly teenage gossips with my female friends.

Best description I can offer is it's a more extreme version of a 'tomboy' or a bloke who's 'in touch with his feminine side'

Basically, I can fit in to either gender role reasonably well but don't fit in to either as well as most do. When I'm surrounded by blokes, I feel like the odd one out, as I'm quite girly and when I'm surrounded by girls I feel the odd one out for being a bit blokey. It sometimes confuses heterosexual people, because they can't decide if they fancy me or not, as I'm half of what appeals to them, so some straight men find themselves wondering why they feel mildly attracted to me and some straight women wonder why they're only mildly attracted to me. Which is possibly why any partner I have had for a reasonable amount of time has been bisexual. My favourite colour's green and I'm rather fond of lemon drizzle cake... Sorry, just enjoying talking about myself - got a bit carried away...
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I'm interested in this and was chatting to my girlfriend about it the other day. I appreciate that this is probably not a question that has a one answer. But for you is this a genetic issue or a social issue?

What I mean is, is it more a case of feeling that you don't fit in to traditional gender divides and stereotypes and feel like who you are conforms to both notions of masculine and feminine? Or do you feel like you have no sex and you're neither a man nor a woman?

Sorry, I don't think I've asked the question very well. Hopefully you know what I mean.
 
NinjaFletch said:
I'm interested in this and was chatting to my girlfriend about it the other day. I appreciate that this is probably not a question that has a one answer. But for you is this a genetic issue or a social issue?

What I mean is, is it more a case of feeling that you don't fit in to traditional gender divides and stereotypes and feel like who you are conforms to both notions of masculine and feminine? Or do you feel like you have no sex and you're neither a man nor a woman?

Sorry, I don't think I've asked the question very well. Hopefully you know what I mean.
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That one.

Certainly varies from person to person, as you alluded to, but for me it's very much a feeling of being both rather than neither. Bigender rather than agender.
 
DiseaseOfTheAge said:
That one.

Certainly varies from person to person, as you alluded to, but for me it's very much a feeling of being both rather than neither. Bigender rather than agender.
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Do you think that non-binary encompasses too many statuses and should be broken down more, or would that end up making it too convoluted to "identify" what gender people associate (or don't) with?
 
DiseaseOfTheAge said:
That one.

Certainly varies from person to person, as you alluded to, but for me it's very much a feeling of being both rather than neither. Bigender rather than agender.
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Fair enough, so can I extrapolate from that you don't feel as if your biologically not male/female but more socially?

And do you agree with the statements this person made that you feel discriminated against? I can imagine it being hard to fit in with social groups and people possibly being less tolerant or understanding than they might be but I mean as much in a legal sense as anything else?

And sorry, I know these are a lot of questions and are quite personal in nature, obviously just ignore me if you do not want to answer any of them.
 
Mr Pigeon said:
Do you think that non-binary encompasses too many statuses and should be broken down more, or would that end up making it too convoluted to "identify" what gender people associate (or don't) with?
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It depends on how specific you need to be for anything. If you're having a complex discussion about gender, the different terms are useful, whereas for most purposes 'queer' (formerly genderqueer) is sufficient.
NinjaFletch said:
Fair enough, so can I extrapolate from that you don't feel as if your biologically not male/female but more socially?

And do you agree with the statements this person made that you feel discriminated against? I can imagine it being hard to fit in with social groups and people possibly being less tolerant or understanding than they might be but I mean as much in a legal sense as anything else?

And sorry, I know these are a lot of questions and are quite personal in nature, obviously just ignore me if you do not want to answer any of them.
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Whilst I wouldn't be particularly surprised if there was a biological element, in my case, to be honest (I do find it quite believable that I have higher oestrogen levels than most men) I do think it's more social than anything, yes.

I found myself agreeing with Bury Red's comment above, regarding discrimination. I mean, yeah there is plenty, but there's no shortage of things people face discrimination over that it's not sensible to try and legislate for. Unisex public toilets are always appreciated, as is the fact I can write my gender on Brighton Council forms as 'Mx' rather than Mr or Miss - that's about as far as I go in campaigning for anything other than a generic tolerance.
 
So, non-binary is androgyny and transgender is a person who feels that he is a man/woman trapped in the opposite sex body?
Or is it just a PC term?
Genuinely don't understand, even after reading Penna's and DOTA's posts
 
harms said:
So, non-binary is androgyny and transgender is a person who feels that he is a man/woman trapped in the opposite sex body?
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Sort of... I could bore you for hours going in to the complexities and terminology but you're close enough there, I'd say.
 
DiseaseOfTheAge said:
I found myself agreeing with Bury Red's comment above, regarding discrimination. I mean, yeah there is plenty, but there's no shortage of things people face discrimination over that it's not sensible to try and legislate for. Unisex public toilets are always appreciated - that's about as far as I go in campaigning for anything other than a generic tolerance.
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I certainly think it's an issue that will improve over the coming years anyway, regardless of whether people identify as non-binary or not. To me anyway, it seems like traditional gender stereotypes are continuing to break down and we increasingly are seeing people not bought up conforming to attitudes regarding what a man or a woman should do. I obviously can't put a figure on it, but I'd say we'd see an almost total abolishment of notions of masculinity and femininity as they currently exist within our life times.
 
I don't see why people get so offended at nomenclature when it comes to sexual or gender orientation. I am sure that if you are non linear when it comes to sexuality or gender orientation being able to put a name to how you feel would be helpful.
 
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I don't get it - what does this lady want that she doesn't currently have? How is she discriminated against?
I'm not sure you could have men using womens toilets and then just claiming they were non-binary?
 
DiseaseOfTheAge said:
That one.

Certainly varies from person to person, as you alluded to, but for me it's very much a feeling of being both rather than neither. Bigender rather than agender.
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Agender poster.
 
The Purley King said:
I don't get it - what does this lady want that she doesn't currently have? How is she discriminated against?
I'm not sure you could have men using womens toilets and then just claiming they were non-binary?
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Think they just want Obama to talk about trans rights more. They used announcing their previously private non-binary identity, with the context of their background, just to emphasise there are still people who feel they have to hide who they are at times because of attitudes of others. I'm not actually sure they were making any point specifically about non-binary rights.
Jippy said:
Agender poster.
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:lol:
 
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