Giving the kids a serious opportunity (or managers not doing it)

RedDevilQuebecois

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Before you go at me, I'm very well aware that not all kids will come out good no matter how many chances you give them (e.g. Elanga). However, I'm irked a lot more when Manchester United managers don't give enough chances to kids for people to make a clear and solid opinion of them. In the post-SAF era, only Louis van Gaal seemed to get it even though some people might say that he did it out of little choices left because of injuries and so on. But you have to remember this: if it was not for Van Gaal, the likes of Rashford and Lingard (before his problems with alcoholism and other bad influences off the pitch) would not have left their mark for the club. That spell of a few days in which we beat Midtjylland and Arsenal with a lot of kids was a good reminder about why I love pleasant surprises out of gambles in football, especially when kids lead the charge.

After Van Gaal, we had Mourinho, Solskjaer and now Ten Hag as full-time managers. To be very honest, none of them has really properly promoted the kids into the first team. Why is that? Why are our managers ever so afraid of doing what SAF and LVG used to do when this clubs takes pride in giving opportunities to the kids?

Outside of Alejandro Garnacho (1,154 minutes of senior football in total, but the spell was cut short because of injury when he was destined for more), no other kid this season played more than 1,000 minutes at senior level this season (709 for Elanga, 208 for Pellistri :mad:, 87 for Mainoo, 0 for Iqbal and 0 for Mengi). Seriously, how do you know what the kids can offer us if you don't give them more valuable playing time over the course of a season 65+ senior matches? How do you explain that?

This is not just a Ten Hag problem; it is only the continuity of a problem that I have seen for the last 7 years now.

*My source is Transfermarkt. I had to make sure to substract minutes played in youth teams.
 
Remember the geese said:
Outside of Garnacho and Mainoo, our kids are shite and not worthy of gametime.
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Considering that Pellistri and Mainoo could have fulfilled our needs at various moments in the season, what baffles me the most is how conservative the man-management has been. Garnacho is very solid and yet was not given 15 minutes instead of Sancho.

Speaking of other kids, how can one explain that Hugill does not get a nod when Martial and Weghorst are firing blanks. The boy is 6'2" at age 19 already and has a better goals/minutes ratio than Weghorst and Martial.

Like I said: how do we know what they are made of if you keep giving them extremely little playing time, even when we are in times of need? The question applies to Ten Hag's man-management as much as it did for Ole's and Jose's.
 
RedDevilQuebecois said:
Considering that Pellistri and Mainoo could have fulfilled our needs at various moments in the season, what baffles me the most is how conservative the man-management has been. Garnacho is very solid and yet was not given 15 minutes instead of Sancho.

Speaking of other kids, how can one explain that Hugill does not get a nod when Martial and Weghorst are firing blanks. The boy is 6'2" at age 19 already and has a better goals/minutes ratio than Weghorst and Martial.

Like I said: how do we know what they are made of if you keep giving them extremely little playing time, even when we are in times of need? The question applies to Ten Hag's man-management as much as it did for Ole's and Jose's.
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Because I'm sure the mentality of the squad is a little shaky right now and the entire squad is struggling with fatigue and form. We're still chasing Top 4 and and an FA Cup final. It's not exactly a time to chuck a kid in and hope it sticks. It's mental. Leaving the youth out is absolutely the right play right now.
 
baskinginthesun said:
Because I'm sure the mentality of the squad is a little shaky right now and the entire squad is struggling with fatigue and form. We're still chasing Top 4 and and an FA Cup final. It's not exactly a time to chuck a kid in and hope it sticks. It's mental. Leaving the youth out is absolutely the right play right now.
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I hope you also remember that this team is also in need of some fresh air coming from anywhere. Garnacho's arrival brought a breath of fresh air throughout the squad in the period before and after the World Cup, before his untimely injury.

If we went by the logic you mentioned, then we would have never seen the likes of Macheda, Welbeck, Rashford and Lingard giving us a hand when it mattered. We are basically being okay with being conservative when we don't have to be.
 
I think Ten Hag wants to give the youth clear roles in the squad, so I could see Sancho going to give Garnacho the backup LW role proper, McTominay also and then Mainoo is the 6th midfielder (Bruno, Eriksen, new #8/6, Casemiro, Fred, Mainoo) and Alvaro coming back to be the 3rd LB with Shaw the backup LCB. Maguire out and a young RCB in. That's a fair bit of youth in the squad if we go that way next year. Only Eriksen, Casemiro, Varane and De Gea really on the back end of their careers.
 
The only reason Van Gaal gave Rashford a chance was to do with injuries. Don’t rewrite history like he chose to start him aheard of first team players.
 
Josep Dowling said:
The only reason Van Gaal gave Rashford a chance was to do with injuries. Don’t rewrite history like he chose to start him aheard of first team players.
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And did Rashford earn the starts under Van Gaal after his debut? Spoiler alert: he did.

How do you know what a kid is made of until you give him a proper opportunity?
 
it must be pretty demoralising for players not getting much chance when Wout, a crap loanee, keeps getting them
 
Tarrou said:
it must be pretty demoralising for players not getting much chance when Wout, a crap loanee, keeps getting them
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It is.

Seems to me that man management ability has been a major weakness among all of our managers post-SAF. Everything I read and hear about SAF is how he always managed to make every single player feel like he (the player) is somebody important for the team.
 
I think it's back to some kids are not ready. Although football looks simple and surely you can't be that bad.... You can.

The gap between pro and u21 is huge, from body build to experience to mentality. Throwing kids for the sake of it seldom ends well.

Plus you actually have to think of the kids (pun intended) that they're thrown into the baptism of fire just for the manager to make a point.

So unless they're bordering ready giving them a match here and there is an irresponsible thing imho
 
Remember the geese said:
Outside of Garnacho and Mainoo, our kids are shite and not worthy of gametime.
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I'd love to see a bit more of Pellistri as well. He's technically not so much a kid anymore, but we need someone else to keep Antony and his self-entitiled childishness in line so that he doesn't presume he owns the right.
 
Raoul said:
I'd love to see a bit more of Pellistri as well. He's technically not so much a kid anymore, but we need someone else to keep Antony and his self-entitiled childishness in line so that he doesn't presume he owns the right.
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Very much this. And if that's not the case, I would also like to see Pellistri trying his luck as an inverted right-footed LW if we have to move Rashford at CF because Martial and Weghorst both suck.
 
RedDevilQuebecois said:
I hope you also remember that this team is also in need of some fresh air coming from anywhere. Garnacho's arrival brought a breath of fresh air throughout the squad in the period before and after the World Cup, before his untimely injury.

If we went by the logic you mentioned, then we would have never seen the likes of Macheda, Welbeck, Rashford and Lingard giving us a hand when it mattered. We are basically being okay with being conservative when we don't have to be.
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Expecting every youth player to come in and have an impact like Garnacho is idiotic though. He's a top youngster in the world for a reason, and even then he's quite flawed and raw in his game currently. Sticking Mainoo in a midfield for a crucial PL tie would be a mad gamble at best and at worst a disaster that ruins the kids confidence. We don't have any fodder games currently, and don't really have any prospects outside of Garnacho that are even good enough to provide a real impact at the moment in a big match.
 
Valencia Shin Crosses said:
Expecting every youth player to come in and have an impact like Garnacho is idiotic though. He's a top youngster in the world for a reason, and even then he's quite flawed and raw in his game currently. Sticking Mainoo in a midfield for a crucial PL tie would be a mad gamble at best and at worst a disaster that ruins the kids confidence. We don't have any fodder games currently, and don't really have any prospects outside of Garnacho that are even good enough to provide a real impact at the moment in a big match.
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Mainoo is the sort of kid you bring in after a game is already been decided, which given our form, won't provide for many chances for him to get subbed on the remainder of this season. Definitely one to watch though.
 
Raoul said:
Mainoo is the sort of kid you bring in after a game is already been decided, which given our form, won't provide for many chances for him to get subbed on the remainder of this season. Definitely one to watch though.
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Agree. Bring him on when the game is done, but we had any easy or non important ties recently to just say "let's play the kids!" when it would be an utter shock if any of them had an impact on a match.
 
Part of a good development process for actual promising players is knowing when NOT to play them too soon, how to make sure the limelight doesn't get to their head, making sure they don't take on situations they can't handle, etc. Part of why we've had so many "world class talents" fail over the past 10 years is because we didn't develop them properly, not because they weren't good enough. Have full faith Ten Hag is growing Garnacho perfectly. Mainoo is way too young still. Pellistri I like but I am not convinced Ten Hag likes him too much, and either way, he's a RW, where Antony is actually quite good.
 
Play the kids get relegated, there is probably a reason why so few of our academy actually make it at utd. I read about the next big thing every year in here, rarely do they play even a single game for us.
With the money we’re throwing around it is clear that youth development is far down the list of priorities. Pellistri effectively is a bench player because we bought a 100 million Brazilian international who scored a handful of goals.
The likes of Garnacho are extremely rare for utd and it is still not a certainty he will play for us in 2 years time, I reckon by then a new over expensive toy will have been bought.
 
I think a lot of problems this season stem from little time to recover and prep between games. We aren’t getting many training sessions to work on tactics or strategies designed to exploit specific opposition.

With that in mind and given we don’t finish teams off there hasn’t been many good opportunities in which to give youngsters minutes.

So instead of being 3-0 up against Forest because we’ve worked on a plan for Forest we are holding on to a 1-0 win and trusting more senior pro’s to see it out.
 
Don't we have any youngsters who could be given minutes instead of what we have in the team? They cannot be worst than the current lot.
 
Ahmer Baig said:
Don't we have any youngsters who could be given minutes instead of what we have in the team? They cannot be worst than the current lot.
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Considering how our squad is tired and that some of our "adults" can't deliver the goods no matter how many chances they get, we have a few kids worth trying.
  • Garnacho... came back from injury being being on the bench against West Ham. He deserved the 15 minutes all day long before Sancho ever did.
  • Pellistri... primarily a RW, he should be tasked in taking over for Antony or play as an inverted LW if we move Rashford into the CF role.
  • Mainoo... supposedly a number 8, he cannot be worse than Fred considering that Mainoo is taller by 2 inches and apparently more physically solid.
  • Hugill... considering the fact that 1) Weghorst just sucks and 2) Martial is always either injured or just ghosting when we need striking options, I would give him a shot with one thing to do... get in front of the goal. The kid is 6'2" just in case anyone is interested.
The fact that we rely on the same old failures is a choice that goes in line with everything we have seen under the last 3 full-time managers in the last 6-7 years.
 
I see a few people taking about Hugill, but honestly what has he done to suggest he's remotely premier league ready at this point ?
 
Raoul said:
The ones listed above - Garnacho, Mainoo, Pellistri
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And yet they are not being given any minutes. ETH persistence and his stubbornness in playing same failed lot will cost us top 4.
 
Ahmer Baig said:
And yet they are not being given any minutes. ETH persistence and his stubbornness in playing same failed lot will cost us top 4.
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Spare Garnacho, I don't think any of them are impact players who would fare any better than our starters. And as for Garnacho, he's probably not yet ready for a full game.
 
RedDevilQuebecois said:
And did Rashford earn the starts under Van Gaal after his debut? Spoiler alert: he did.

How do you know what a kid is made of until you give him a proper opportunity?
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Because historically a youth team player ends up not making it. Even at United. They might plug a hole or be last resort for a couple of games here and there throughout the season but, historically, they end up not being good enough and have to drop down a league or two to find their ideal level. So throwing a kid on just for the sake of it, doesn't make sense.

For all those youth players that LVG brought through how many are ripping up the PL or the top leagues in Europe.
RedDevilQuebecois said:
Considering how our squad is tired and that some of our "adults" can't deliver the goods no matter how many chances they get, we have a few kids worth trying.
  • Garnacho... came back from injury being being on the bench against West Ham. He deserved the 15 minutes all day long before Sancho ever did.
  • Pellistri... primarily a RW, he should be tasked in taking over for Antony or play as an inverted LW if we move Rashford into the CF role.
  • Mainoo... supposedly a number 8, he cannot be worse than Fred considering that Mainoo is taller by 2 inches and apparently more physically solid.
  • Hugill... considering the fact that 1) Weghorst just sucks and 2) Martial is always either injured or just ghosting when we need striking options, I would give him a shot with one thing to do... get in front of the goal. The kid is 6'2" just in case anyone is interested.
The fact that we rely on the same old failures is a choice that goes in line with everything we have seen under the last 3 full-time managers in the last 6-7 years.
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I think you're missing the point of what it means to step up to the Premier League. Especially at this point of the season. You sort of answered your own question about Garnacho. He's been injured and hasn't featured in months where as Sancho is match fit and has thousands of hours of first team football. We were chasing the game as well. Garnacho probably would have offered a lot less than Sancho.

We're chasing points and a Cup Final chucking in a kid doesn't solve any problems that I feel you think it would.
 
RedDevilQuebecois said:
Speaking of other kids, how can one explain that Hugill does not get a nod when Martial and Weghorst are firing blanks. The boy is 6'2" at age 19 already and has a better goals/minutes ratio than Weghorst and Martial.
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Hugill's goals per minutes ratio is 0/0 at Premier League level so no, it's not better than Martial's. Surely you're not trying to compare youth team performance to first team performance right? Right?

Even if you include Hugill's loan at non league Altrincham he's only scored 1 in 7 games which is way worse than Martial's performance this season. Martial has scored one in every 190 minutes in the Prem this season (according to Transfermarkt) while Hugill has scored 1 every 515 minutes in the National league.

Honestly the overrating of academy players who will probably never make it at Premier League level is out of control. Might as well bring back James Wilson, he should be hitting his prime right about now.
 
acolyte said:
Hugill's goals per minutes ratio is 0/0 at Premier League level so no, it's not better than Martial's. Surely you're not trying to compare youth team performance to first team performance right? Right?

Even if you include Hugill's loan at non league Altrincham he's only scored 1 in 7 games which is way worse than Martial's performance this season. Martial has scored one in every 190 minutes in the Prem this season (according to Transfermarkt) while Hugill has scored 1 every 515 minutes in the National league.

Honestly the overrating of academy players who will probably never make it at Premier League level is out of control. Might as well bring back James Wilson, he should be hitting his prime right about now.
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That's only one option Ihni binni dimi diniwiny anitaime many. If you want a pure centre-forward to try doing a job that Martial and Weghorst already failed to do, Hugill is the only CF we have left until we enter transfer season. But if you want to recapture a recipe that worked earlier in the season, then we have to shove Rashford up front, slot Bruno as a number 10 and give the LW spot to whoever other than Rashford deserves it the most (which would be Garnacho on the balance of the season).

Either way, we will need at least one kid to play to make up for very well documented shortcomings from Sancho/Martial/Weghorst.
 
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