General Football Untruths

rcoobc

Not as crap as eferyone thinks
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There are lots of things that bug me in football, few more than general football sayings that aren’t true. Actually that’s a lie, there are a lot of things that bug me more, but still they bug me a lot. I could talk about sayings like “Giggs turned down England” or “Suarez said negorito” or “Gerrard never dives” but those are specific and a bit boring as we all know them. But there are many out there that are general and annoying.

More incorrect decisions going for one team indicates that there is a bias towards it.

Anyone familiar with dice or cards should be alarmed by this idea and how readily accepted it is. If you’re wondering whether people actually think this, try this experiment on people, or do this on yourself by answering the following questions:

Five equally good hospitals in every way, operate on the same number of patients every year, who all have the same problems: heart conditions. Of these five hospitals in one particular year one of them looses 10 patients, one of them looses 7 patients, another 12 a forth 5 and the final hospital looses 8. Which hospital is the best, the one that lost 10, 7, 12, 5 or 8 patients?

If you answered any of the hospitals that lost 10, 7, 12 or 8 patients I have no idea what you’re on about but I think it’s time to stop reading. If you answered the hospital that lost 5 patients, you have made an understandable but not excusable mistake. If you answered they are all the same give yourself a pat on the back, or a hug, or do nothing. But well done anyway.

And that’s when there is no bias to the type of football, if there is a bias towards teams that attack more, or have more possession, or have loader fans, or are nicer to referees the outliers will rise giving one team far more incorrect decisions in a single season. That is the likelihood anyway.

Referring mistakes even out of the course of a season.

We’ve all been told that after enough time chance becomes negligible, which is true, but not after 38 games of football. Even after 38,000 games one team would have hundreds more mistakes go their way, it just wouldn’t make much difference compared to the thousands every team had anyway.

The only way decisions would even out over a single season is if fate, god or the officials deliberately intervened to make this the case. If however we leave it to random chance one team will likely have many more decisions in their favour than the team that has the least. And that’s without any bias. There is no reason for bad decisions to even out for any team, but if there is bias the outliers will be even worse.

The best team always wins the league.

This is obviously the case if you define the team that wins the League as the best team, truly obviously. If you use different ideas however, it should be equally obvious that the best team does not always win the League.

To prove this without offending too many people let’s first look at the 2005 season and take the title race out of the equation. One of my favourite saying’s is that Liverpool weren’t the best team in Europe that year, in fact they weren’t even the best team in Liverpool. It’s fantastic, it makes me laugh, it winds up the Liverpool fans, but it’s also untrue. Liverpool finished 3 points behind their derby rivals which would have denied them Champions League football, but for their Champions League win. It was a fun season to watch Everton, a young Scottish manager improving their team year-on-year until finally breaking into the top 4 at the Pool’s expense. Liverpool however played 13 Champions League games that season, beating Bayer Leverkusen and Juventus over two legs and just about beating Chelsea and AC Milan too. That’s not to mention a difficult group, and they also got to the League Cup final.

So who were the best team that year, Everton who won 18 league games, or Liverpool who won 17 League games, got to a domestic cup final and won the Champions League?

I know this isn’t going to convince everyone, so let’s go back to statistics. Two teams play 38 identical games. One team have a 51% chance of winning any and every game, the other team has 49% chance of winning any and every game. The first team has a 31% chance of drawing any and every game; the second has a 29% chance of drawing any and every game. Regardless of what you think of this idea and its relationship to football, this is very easy to simulate. Do this over 38 "games" and add them up. It doesn’t take too many "years" for the team that should be winning and drawing fewer games to win this simulated league.

Football is a game of chance, of few goals and of big decisions. Football is a game where moments can win games and a few games can win leagues. Football is frustrating, its fun, it’s a game when the worst team can beat the best team after being dominated for 90 minutes. It’s a game when the best team doesn’t always win the game, so there is no reason for the best team to always win the league.

Football is a game of 90 minutes

Sadly this is not the case; games of football last around 58-65 minutes of the game being in-play. This depends on the type of football being played by the team. In the Premier League, Manchester United have, on average, the ball in-play for the most amount of time. Teams that take time over their throw-ins (like Stoke City) have the ball in play less.

Does this indicate that Fergie time is more unfair as United get in more football anyway? Well I’m not sure actually. I think the referee's add on time for stoppages in certain situations, like substitutes or the ball not being given back. Taking time over throw-ins and free kick’s doesn’t automatically add on time I don’t think.

I’m not even certain substitutes in added time add on time. Sadly.

Any of this matters

It doesn't matter. Champions are champions, winners are winners.
 
The saying isn't "your league position accurately reflects your ability as a football team", the saying is "the best team always wins the league" rendering your scouse example meaningless, neither Liverpool nor Everton were competing for the league.

Name me a single Premier League season where the best team hasn't won the league?
 
The saying isn't "your league position accurately reflects your ability as a football team", the saying is "the best team always wins the league" rendering your scouse example meaningless.

Indeed, but its the same principle (league position is caused only by ability).

I could use examples that might be applicable such as Chelsea in 2010 or others before but I'm just going to start offending people.
 
58-65 minutes. Every game? I don't think so. There have been boring 0-0's where it doesn't got out much for throw-ins.
 
The saying isn't "your league position accurately reflects your ability as a football team", the saying is "the best team always wins the league" rendering your scouse example meaningless, neither Liverpool nor Everton were competing for the league.

Name me a single Premier League season where the best team hasn't won the league?

Thats not the point. Just apply his statistics example and you will see that what robocop says is true and that "the best team always wins" is not necessarily true.
 
The best team does always win the league, and they deserve it. If Madrid beat Barca, it's because they actually are a better team than they are (deal with that fact). In those games where Barca drew with teams like Osasuna, it's because they weren't good enough, whereas Madrid were. Of course this is probably going to be rendered moot as Madrid coudl well lose at Atletico tonight, and will almost certainly lose when they go to the Nou Camp, as they continually drop points.

The best team doesn't always win the Champions League. Liverpool weren't the best team in '05 for example, not even close, likewise, Portsmouth weren't the best team in England when they won the cup. Cup competitions aren't the same as winning the league and aren't a reflection of how good a team is, unlike the league, which tests you over 38 games.
 
Thats not the point. Just apply his statistics example and you will see that what robocop says is true and that "the best team always wins" is not necessarily true.

In what case. He didn't watch all the games. He mentions Chelsea 2010 and there his sole example is our game vs Chelsea. What about all the other 37 games of the season? Sure he might have watched the United games but not the Chelsea ones and there is obvious bias in this comment.
 
The saying isn't "your league position accurately reflects your ability as a football team", the saying is "the best team always wins the league" rendering your scouse example meaningless, neither Liverpool nor Everton were competing for the league.

Name me a single Premier League season where the best team hasn't won the league?

The best team is the team who have won the most points over the course of the season. In that respect the best team always wins. The only time that this can really be disputed is if the team who have won the most points have some deducted for one reason or another.

The fallacy that all big teams get the decisions due to "referee bias" is what irks me. As has been said before, many factors are involved as to why big teams may for example get more penalties such as attacking intent or technically superior players vs inferior defenders. I think to question the professionalism of the refs is out of order.
 
You say football is crafted by chances and moments. The best teams take their limited chances and moments however little they are enabling them to win/draw games by the scrape of their teeth. The best teams are the ones who don't get dominated by little teams, granted everyone has their off day but the best teams only have two or three "slip ups" a year.

Take Madrid and Barca for example, if Madrid win the league people will say that the best team didn't win because Barcelona play better football. Last i knew, to win you needed to score goals. By what you're saying of "best team", you are just evaluating the individuals and how they play. Not by points which are the things that matter.
 
58-65 minutes. Every game? I don't think so. There have been boring 0-0's where it doesn't got out much for throw-ins.

Yup sadly so. I was a bit shocked too: https://www.redcafe.net/f7/quick-football-questions-346978/#post11379559

In what case. He didn't watch all the games. He mentions Chelsea 2010 and there his sole example is our game vs Chelsea. What about all the other 37 games of the season? Sure he might have watched the United games but not the Chelsea ones and there is obvious bias in this comment.
What? I never used that game as an example! I would have used us being in an extra two games in the Champions League as we lost the game after the 1st leg and drew the game after the second leg!
 
You say football is crafted by chances and moments. The best teams take their limited chances and moments however little they are enabling them to win/draw games by the scrape of their teeth. The best teams are the ones who don't get dominated by little teams, granted everyone has their off day but the best teams only have two or three "slip ups" a year.

Take Madrid and Barca for example, if Madrid win the league people will say that the best team didn't win because Barcelona play better football. Last i knew, to win you needed to score goals. By what you're saying of "best team", you are just evaluating the individuals and how they play. Not by points which are the things that matter.
The "slip ups" aren't entirely in any teams control, they're dependent on a huge number of variables, the weather, the performance of the opposition, travel conditions, preparation for the match, fixtures, and so on. A team may have the best players and team in the League, but if these variables go against them in a large amount of matches, while favouring the second strongest side, they may well lose the title.
 
The "slip ups" aren't entirely in any teams control, they're dependent on a huge number of variables, the weather, the performance of the opposition, travel conditions, preparation for the match, fixtures, and so on. A team may have the best players and team in the League, but if these variables go against them in a large amount of matches, while favouring the second strongest side, they may well lose the title.

The opposition can also be hampered by weather and travel conditions.
Preparation of the match is up to the manager and coaches who are also part of the team.
Performance of the opposition i can understand.

I can understand fixtures a little if there are many within a couple of days but the best teams have the biggest and best squads and have the strength and depth to cope with it. I'm sure many of you wouldn't buy City's excuse of being tired as every other team has that to cope with.
 
The best team does always win the league, and they deserve it. If Madrid beat Barca, it's because they actually are a better team than they are (deal with that fact). In those games where Barca drew with teams like Osasuna, it's because they weren't good enough, whereas Madrid were. Of course this is probably going to be rendered moot as Madrid coudl well lose at Atletico tonight, and will almost certainly lose when they go to the Nou Camp, as they continually drop points.

The best team doesn't always win the Champions League. Liverpool weren't the best team in '05 for example, not even close, likewise, Portsmouth weren't the best team in England when they won the cup. Cup competitions aren't the same as winning the league and aren't a reflection of how good a team is, unlike the league, which tests you over 38 games.

I didn't think Chelsea were the best team in 2010...They beat United by the skin of their teeth despite United playing a central midfield in central defence for a month.

That's not to say I didn't think they deserved to win it either...sometimes there's more than one team that deserves to win it, and the difference can come down to something as simple as getting a bit of luck here and there (e.g. injuries, a deflected shot, dodgy refereeing).

It was the same in 2007 when United won it. Very little between them and Chelsea aside from United getting a few pieces of luck to go with their guts which didn't come Chelsea's way when they needed it.
 
What about playing a team who suddenly have nothing to play for? If you play Wolves when they are fighting for survival they will be going all out. Once they have confirmed their relegation they will probably lose all the rest of the games.

Same with teams going for Champions League places, once that has gone what is there?

But even without taking into account things that adversely affect one team and not the others a less good team can win the League. As I proved with my percent example.
 
The opposition can also be hampered by weather and travel conditions.
Preparation of the match is up to the manager and coaches who are also part of the team.
Performance of the opposition i can understand.

I can understand fixtures a little if there are many within a couple of days but the best teams have the biggest and best squads and have the strength and depth to cope with it. I'm sure many of you wouldn't buy City's excuse of being tired as every other team has that to cope with.

One team can be hampered by weather/travel conditions more than another though. There was that volcanic eruption in 2010 that grounded all the planes, that sort of thing can harm a team's chances if they have to travel by road or rail for hundreds of miles, particularly if it's a short notice.

Preparation can be impacted by things that are out of the manager's and coaches' control, injuries for example, sustained on a dodgy pitch. Rooney breaking his leg wouldn't make us a worse team by my definition, but it would certainly impact our League performances.

Performances of the opposition in itself is a variable which should destroys the idea that the best side must always win the League. The League is the best available indicator, but it's far from an infallible one.
 
I didn't think Chelsea were the best team in 2010...They beat United by the skin of their teeth despite United playing a central midfield in central defence for a month.

That's not to say I didn't think they deserved to win it either...sometimes there's more than one team that deserves to win it, and the difference can come down to something as simple as getting a bit of luck here and there (e.g. injuries, a deflected shot, dodgy refereeing).

It was the same in 2007 when United won it. Very little between them and Chelsea aside from United getting a few pieces of luck to go with their guts which didn't come Chelsea's way when they needed it.

But when we had those injuries, we had to deal with them. Every team gets injuries, we had more than most, and didn't adequately deal with it. Once you know what you're up against you have to deal with it.

When we were playing with the midfielders in defence (Fulham?), that is your team for that game, if the team you put out doesn't perform, it goes against how well you've done this season, which tells when Chelsea win the league.

I'm not wording this well, but say for example when City lost to Sunderland, they were probably the better team and should maybe have won the game, but you actually have to score goals to win games, which is why when people say "Oh they deserved to win that game" I think, well, no they didn't, they may have played good football and had lots of shots, but if you can't actually score, you don't deserve to win, and the same concept applies to the league, if you don't get points where your rivals do, you don't deserve to win the league. Winning comes down to one thing - scoring more goals than the opponents, and if you don't do that as often as your title rivals, you don't deserve to win the league.

So yeah, make what you can of that.
 
When Mexico put their team for the Copa America they where restricted to Under-23 players because they are a North American team, and UEFA got FIFA to accept that National Teams couldn't play in tournaments outside their federation.

So is it understandable that Mexico went out of the group phase then? To me, of course it is but I've argued with a few on this forum who say "if those 23 went to the Copa America, they are Mexican national team players, and this is how they need to treat and see themselves. As such they should be trying to win the thing.
 
The saying isn't "your league position accurately reflects your ability as a football team", the saying is "the best team always wins the league" rendering your scouse example meaningless, neither Liverpool nor Everton were competing for the league.

Name me a single Premier League season where the best team hasn't won the league?

A team never flukes winning the league, they're always there or there abouts by their quality, but there could very easily be scenarios - Arsenal's famous Micky Thomas win at Anfield for example - where the margins for error are so small as to make the difference less to do with being "the better team" ..The difference in that case between who the best team that year was came down, essentially, to the run of the ball in the 91st minute.
 
With regards to the one about the best team winning the league, I can see where you're coming from. It depends on what context you're taking it in. In a way, whoever wins the league is the best team. If you're saying it literally, then they have obviously been the best team over the course of the season.

But then, there's looking into it further as well, where it may show that the team that won the league weren't the best in the league. For example, say Team A win the league with 85 points, while Team B come 2nd with 84. That would say that Team B were the best team in the league, but what if Team B have won the FA Cup, League Cup and Champions League, while Team A have been put out at the midway points of each. To add to this, Team B have been missing their two most influential players throughout the whole season, as well as having lots of other injury problems, while Team A haven't had any major injury problems. Which team would you say is probably better then? Team A would've literally been the best in the league over the whole season, but do they have a better team than Team B? In this case, probably not.
 
In what case. He didn't watch all the games. He mentions Chelsea 2010 and there his sole example is our game vs Chelsea. What about all the other 37 games of the season? Sure he might have watched the United games but not the Chelsea ones and there is obvious bias in this comment.

Just read the theoretical example ffs. If you cant be bothered to do that and then understand what he means then you are just arguing for the sake of being stupid and difficult.
 
Yup sadly so. I was a bit shocked too: https://www.redcafe.net/f7/quick-football-questions-346978/#post11379559


What? I never used that game as an example! I would have used us being in an extra two games in the Champions League as we lost the game after the 1st leg and drew the game after the second leg!

Ah, you mean on average then. Well, it's hard to time really. I'm sure it varies a lot season for season, league by league.

I assumed you meant it because that's all people talk about. If you didn't I apologize.
 
If the best team always wins the League, does that mean we're worse than Benfica and Basel?
 
Also, slightly different, but the back of the net isn't what you want to go for...It's the front of it if anything. Also the "roof" is on the top. The ceiling is what you're aiming for. Emile Heskey's misunderstood really, he's just been going off misinformation all these years.
 
Also, slightly different, but the back of the net isn't what you want to go for...It's the front of it if anything. Also the "roof" is on the top. The ceiling is what you're aiming for. Emile Heskey's misunderstood really, he's just been going off misinformation all these years.

:lol:

Too true.
 
The best team always wins the league.

This is obviously the case if you define the team that wins the League as the best team, truly obviously. If you use different idea’s however, it should be equally obvious that the best team does not always win the League.

To prove this without offending too many people let’s first look at the 2005 season, and take the title race out of the equation. One of my favourite saying’s is that Liverpool weren’t the best team in Europe that year, in fact they weren’t even the best team in Liverpool. It’s fantastic, it makes me laugh, it winds up the Liverpool fans, but it’s also untrue. Everton finished 3 points behind their derby rivals which would have denied them Champions League football, but for their Champions League win. It was a fun season to watch Everton, a young Scottish manager improving their team year-on-year until finally breaking into the top 4 at the Pool’s expense. Liverpool however played 13 Champions League games that season, beating Bayer Leverkusen and Juventus over two legs and just about beat Chelsea and AC Milan too. That’s not to mention a difficult group. They also got to the League Cup final.

So who were the best team that year, Everton who won 18 league games, or Liverpool who won 17 League games, got to a domestic cup final and won the Champions League?

I know this isn’t going to convince everyone, so let’s go back to statistics. Two teams play 38 identical games. One team have a 51% chance of winning any and every game, the other team has 49% chance of winning any and every game. The first team has a 31% chance of drawing any and every game; the second has a 29% chance of drawing any and every game. Regardless of what you think of this idea and its relationship to football, this is very easy to simulate. Do this a few times over 38 games and add them up. It doesn’t take long for the team that should be winning and drawing fewer games to win this simulated league.

Football is a game of chance, of few goals and of big decisions. Football is a game where moments can win games and a few games can win leagues. Football is frustrating, its fun, it’s a game when the worst team can beat the best team after being dominated for 90 minutes. It’s a game when the best team doesn’t always win the game, so there is no reason for the best team to always win the league.

But neither Liverpool or Everton won the title, so what that gotta do with anything here?
 
But neither Liverpool or Everton won the title, so what that gotta do with anything here?

Then use the 2010 Premier League as an example! We got a round further than Chelsea in the Champions League, but it effectively cost us 5 points as we lost and drew the matches after it.

Same thing, one competition taking away from another. We could have had an extra 5 points there.
 
It's really not a hard concept to grasp. That league position isn't entirely 100% representative of a team's quality. Jeez.
 
Chelsea were the better in 2010,....I'd say every Premiership going back to like 96 were won by the better and more deserving team. Which is essentially why you had to use a mid table comparison as your main argument, I'd agree that a table isn't representative of whos actually the better teams....but like most of the time, the best team has won the league, the most debatable being Blackburn.

Using your theory, Chelsea are the best team this year or well at least the third best allowing a bit of leeway in City/Utd's naivety/inexperience in Europe.
 
And yet we always say things like "going out of the CL/FA will help them/us in the league"...Why do we say this if the best team always wins? It should be immaterial.
 
Then use the 2010 Premier League as an example! We got a round further than Chelsea in the Champions League, but it effectively cost us 5 points as we lost and drew the matches after it.

Same thing, one competition taking away from another. We could have had an extra 5 points there.

You don't know that. It's all guesses. There are a lot of ifs in a games over the course 9 months.
 
You don't know that. It's all guesses. There are a lot of ifs in a games over the course 9 months.

Yes it is all guesses, plus there is the argument that being in the Champions League helps United later on, say the following year (which is a bit of a misnoma as it doesn't mean they aren't the best at the time. Plus there is the argument that Chelsea had the FA Cup to deal with too.

But to me, its not entirely accurate. Sometimes it certainly is, Chelsea's earlier two league wins where fantastic, and they where easily the best team in the League, as well as Arsenal the year before.

But sometimes it isn't. Chelsea won the League by a point but I can easily point to 3 games that could have gone differently but for luck or fate or outside influences.