Formation with 3 CB's if the transferwindow fails?

[VorZakone]

I know Ten Hag was brought in to play "modern possession football" but he needs to have the right players for that.

If the desired players aren't bought in the remaining time of this transferwindow, should Ten Hag consider a formation with 3 CB's for the season? Shore up the defense and let Ronaldo/Rashford/Sancho/Martial etc wreck havoc on the counter?

De Gea
Wan-Bissaka - Varane - Maguire - Martinez - Malacia
Fred - Bruno
Sancho - Ronaldo - Rashford

 

[crossy1686]

You think a manager that plays to a system will change his whole philosophy because we didn't get De Jong? I've got some news for you...

 

[youmeletsfly]

There isn't a single strongest United eleven with AWB and Rashford in it. Are you out of your fecking mind?

 

[VorZakone]

You think a manager that plays to a system will change his whole philosophy because we didn't get De Jong? I've got some news for you...

Conte adapted in 2016/17 when his initial formation wasn't quite working out and changed it to 3 CB's with Luiz-Azpilicueta-Cahill.

That's when they started their winning streak and went on to win the league.

 

[Leftback99]

Has he ever played it? Because of how we've ridiculously shaped the squad with CBs and no forwards, it does make sense (apart from having no RWB).

 

[avgp_1]

Is the best way forward with the current players we have got. Not a defensively able player at all in CM, CBs who have atleast one huge flaw, wingers who cant beat anybody. So many teams are playing with 3 CBs and WBs in PL now, we must have a look at it


----------------------------------------------------De Gea----------------------------------------

-----------------------Varane---------------Maguire---------------Martinez-------------

--Laird/Dalot--------------Fred------------------Eriksen/Rabiot---------------Shaw/Malacia

----------------------------------------------------Bruno--------------------------------------------

----------------------------Ronaldo----------------------------Sancho--------------------------

 

[Roboc7]

These players can’t play his system, he’ll be gone by Christmas if he keeps trying. He’ll have to go back to the defensive, pragmatic and counter attacking tactics that so many of players are used to.

I’d be amazed if we don’t line up with a back 5 against Liverpool. AWB back at RB, Mcfred in midfield as well.

 

[DWelbz19]

Problem with a 3atb is that we haven’t really the wingbacks for it. Laird and Malacia look like they have the physical intensity to run up and down for 90 but do they have the quality on the ball?

You could also go 343 (gives Sancho and Rashford a spot) or a 2 man partnership upfront (gives Ronaldo some help), but not sure where you fit our two no.10s in Fernandes/Eriksen.

 

[Robindinho]

Yes, either a back 3 or Martinez as the holding midfielder. Maguire needs dropping if we're to play a high line...

De Gea

Bailly Varane Martinez

Dalot Eriksen Fred/Rabiot Malacia

Sancho Bruno

Martial/Ronaldo
​

Would have Laird over Dalot, but thought we'd agreed a loan with QPR.

 

[crossy1686]

Conte adapted in 2016/17 when his initial formation wasn't quite working out and changed it to 3 CB's with Luiz-Azpilicueta-Cahill.

That's when they started their winning streak and went on to win the league.

Okay, so you think Ten Hag will do a Conte? One being renowned for a system and the other for being pragmatic.

 

[VorZakone]

Okay, so you think Ten Hag will do a Conte? One being renowned for a system and the other for being pragmatic.

I'm not saying I think Ten Hag would do it. I'm just saying it's an option to compensate for a failed transferwindow. The team has a good number of CB's.

 

[friendlytramp]

Can’t go back need to keep moving towards the way he wants to play long term. Ralf had same issue but no time

 

[crossy1686]

I'm not saying I think Ten Hag would do it. I'm just saying it's an option to compensate for a failed transferwindow. The team has a good number of CB's.

As I said, one manager is pragmatic and will do whatever it takes to win. The other manager will just force more of the system on the players until he finds the players that can play to said system. System managers don't change and they don't tweak their philosophies, this is what we went with, this is what we get.

 

[Pexbo]

Wan Bissaka at wing back. Oh Lordy.

 

[chris123]

Can’t go back need to keep moving towards the way he wants to play long term. Ralf had same issue but no time

You can still train your philosophy with a different formation. Conte did exactly the same at Chelsea, and scrapped his plans after three games. If playing a back 5 gives you more stability, and allows you to start playing at the back and makes your new signing more comfortable, you do it. We also have wing backs totally unsuited to a back four, and a midfield totally lacking in defensive midfielders.

 

[JPRouve]

Conte adapted in 2016/17 when his initial formation wasn't quite working out and changed it to 3 CB's with Luiz-Azpilicueta-Cahill.

That's when they started their winning streak and went on to win the league.

Conte used a back three for a significant part of his career before joining Chelsea.

 

[Trequarista10]

I don't know if ETH has ever used a back 3 formation, or if he would even consider using here, but I know:

1. His teams would often be in a back 3 shape when in possession.
2. It would suit a number of our players for a variety of reasons.

 

[tomaldinho1]

I don't know if ETH has ever used a back 3 formation, or if he would even consider using here, but I know:

1. His teams would often be in a back 3 shape when in possession.
2. It would suit a number of our players for a variety of reasons.

Was going to say this, De Jong often became a 3rd CB at Ajax - maybe this is where Martinez will end up. Start him as DM but in reality he’s a CB in possession and just pushes up a little out of possession.

 

[Red_toad]

Heaton
Elanga, Varane, Harry, Martinez, Malacia
Savage, Iqbal
Sancho, Martial, Rashford​

Probably perform better than what we're currently fielding.

 

[JPRouve]

The issue with a back three in a system that uses wingback is that it often ends up being a back five and you are definitely stuck in your own half. Few teams make it work because their wingbacks have the mentality and fortitude to not easily drop.

If I was ten Hag, I would go for a midfield three either a flat midfield or one that uses a holding midfielder. I would play the kids with Eriksen. We have to accept the fact that Fred, Bruno and McTominay have consistently failed to control or dominate center midfield without an in-form Pogba or Matic, these three are the weak links with and without the ball. We have been sometimes competent when given the opportunity to counter but rarely have we been good when we were the ones with heavy possession and the opposition pressuring us.

 

[TheRedDevil'sAdvocate]

If ETH does this, with the current squad options, it could potentially be the final nail in the coffin for him.

It should always be quality over quantity. The fact that we have numbers at the back means feck all when reality comes knocking on our door again.

Three at the back calls for wide CBs who are comfortable with defending the wide channels on their sides. You may think that you're providing more security at the back, but, in truth, you're giving those defenders you say you don't trust more space to cover and more defensive responsibilities. Unless, all we should care about is numbers at the back. In which case, it would be a "clear as daylight" 532 (5 at the back, no questions about it). No different than Mou's implementation of it (Spurs,now at Roma) or Solskjaer's unimaginative "i'll just throw more defenders in the mix because teaching a possession game against sides who are good with the ball is too much work".

The other thing about the 352 is obviously the wing-backs. They are key in making it work: Helping in the build-up, providing width in the final third, creating numerical advantages in the middle third, carrying the ball forward, keeping tabs on the opposition FBs. Who's going to do that? Dalot, Malacia and Shaw? Jesus wept...

The team has huge issues all over. A cry for some pragmatism in the face of, yet another, disastrous season is quite understandable. There are several threads discussing the midfield, the defence, the keeper etc. But this doesn't answer the big "why". Why three managers in a row have opted for Mcfred in the midfield? Why do we always seem to resort in a deep line hoping that Maguire will clear the crosses? Solskjaer, Rangnick and now ETH... Why do we find ourselves in a position where stopping the leaking always becomes a priority?

Look up front... Winning the first balls, winning the second balls, harassing the CBs, playing with back to goal, getting past opponents on the half turn, protecting the ball, playing off the dribble. Do we have any of these qualities?

The next question is, how many concessions should we make to accommodate a frontline that offers so little in terms of general play? And how many managers are we are going to allow to get swallowed up in the belief that Rashford, Martial and co. are the future and that no one should displease Ronnie?

 

[nau05194]

Has he ever played it? Because of how we've ridiculously shaped the squad with CBs and no forwards, it does make sense (apart from having no RWB).

I don't know if ETH has ever used a back 3 formation, or if he would even consider using here, but I know:

1. His teams would often be in a back 3 shape when in possession.
2. It would suit a number of our players for a variety of reasons.

Short answer is yes. When he was in charge of Utrecht in the Eredivise from 2015 - 2017, Ten Hag switched between a 4-4-2 diamond and a 3-5-2 which are variations on the same shape using a player who could alternate between defensive midfield and and centre back.

I know Ten Hag was brought in to play "modern possession football" but he needs to have the right players for that.

If the desired players aren't bought in the remaining time of this transferwindow, should Ten Hag consider a formation with 3 CB's for the season? Shore up the defense and let Ronaldo/Rashford/Sancho/Martial etc wreck havoc on the counter?

De Gea
Wan-Bissaka - Varane - Maguire - Martinez - Malacia
Fred - Bruno
Sancho - Ronaldo - Rashford

Scott McTominay plays a percentage of his Scotland minutes at right centre back in a back-3 so there's another player a change of system might suit.

 

[TheGame]

He will stick with 4-3-3 however just play a more balanced midfield.

 

[Nero]

Most miserable formation in football.

Also, the answer to having a shit defence isn't to play more of them.

 

[Bebestation]

My dream formation has always been a 532 on defense to a 343 on attack.

 

[Trequarista10]

Short answer is yes. When he was in charge of Utrecht in the Eredivise from 2015 - 2017, Ten Hag switched between a 4-4-2 diamond and a 3-5-2 which are variations on the same shape using a player who could alternate between defensive midfield and and centre back.

Scott McTominay plays a percentage of his Scotland minutes at right centre back in a back-3 so there's another player a change of system might suit.

I suppose Martinez would be the one suitable for that role. Although in more recent years teams have had the middle CB as the deepest of the 3 sweeping up rather than stepping forward into DM, with the left and right CB advancing forwards more often. Would be interesting what variation ETH would consider, if he considers it at all.

Agree on McTominay. Don't think he'd be a starter at RCB, but he would benefit from having space in front of him when he receives the ball. I think Lindelof and probably Maguire would be better at RCB though. I think the biggest beneficiaries would be Martinez, our wide forwards (as they wouldn't need to be so wide to stretch the play), and our abundance of CMs who are uncomfortable playing out from the back.

 

[Amsterdam Devil]

Okay, so you think Ten Hag will do a Conte? One being renowned for a system and the other for being pragmatic.

Ten Hag is more about football principles than strict formation. He was very practical at FC Utrecht and also at Ajax he changed his formation the last months of the season.

3-4-3 makes sense. We have enough centre backs but they are not very good playing with the two of them.

If we get Frenkie (which I don’t believe anymore) he is used to play in 3-4-3 because Holland plays like that. It could even be a reason for him to sign for Chelsea because Van Gaal tries to mirror Tuchels tactics.

In attack we could play like Chelsea with one centre forward and two attacking players behind the striker. We have enough players to play that role in Fernandes, Eriksen, Sancho and Van de Beek.

The last time Maguire and Shaw played well was at the Euro’s with England playing three at the back as well.

We need two good midfielders and one right back, but we need them whichever formation we play.

 

[croadyman]

I know Ten Hag was brought in to play "modern possession football" but he needs to have the right players for that.

If the desired players aren't bought in the remaining time of this transferwindow, should Ten Hag consider a formation with 3 CB's for the season? Shore up the defense and let Ronaldo/Rashford/Sancho/Martial etc wreck havoc on the counter?

De Gea
Wan-Bissaka - Varane - Maguire - Martinez - Malacia
Fred - Bruno
Sancho - Ronaldo - Rashford

Swop that joke of a captain for Bailly and replace Rashford with Garnacho, hell put Heaton in goal as well

 

[TrustInJanuzaj]

I wouldn’t be against trying it IF ETH can still utilise his style within it. What we don’t want to do is change to a back three and then just revert to negative football miles away from the desired style.

 

[nau05194]

I wouldn’t be against trying it IF ETH can still utilise his style within it. What we don’t want to do is change to a back three and then just revert to negative football miles away from the desired style.

As I understand it, 433 or 343 are both well suited for implementing positional play/total football/modern football concepts. Pep Guardiola used a 343 during his time at Bayern Munich if I'm not mistaken in order to maximise his biggest threats in Robben and Ribery. The principles of play can stay constant even if the formation changes.

In practice you see certain approaches shared by teams using this style for instance the use of passing triangles or diamonds and the 433 or 343 systems both these formations make it easier to create passing triangles or diamonds and by getting players into the right zones and between the lines these patterns make it easy to move the ball through the opposition and generate a superiority between or behind the lines.

Tifo Football - What is Positional play?​

​

 

[Amsterdam Devil]

I wouldn’t be against trying it IF ETH can still utilise his style within it. What we don’t want to do is change to a back three and then just revert to negative football miles away from the desired style.

the way Tuchel plays 3-4-3 is not a very negative style right? I even think it’s easier to press in a 3-4-3 than in a 4-2-3-1.

 

[Bristol_Red_87]

Look up front... Winning the first balls, winning the second balls, harassing the CBs, playing with back to goal, getting past opponents on the half turn, protecting the ball, playing off the dribble. Do we have any of these qualities?

The next question is, how many concessions should we make to accommodate a frontline that offers so little in terms of general play? And how many managers are we are going to allow to get swallowed up in the belief that Rashford, Martial and co. are the future and that no one should displease Ronnie?

In ETH's perceived system, this is probably the biggest issue at present.

The press needs to start from the front. Our front line is either incredibly lazy or simply not fit enough to continually press. We have historically seen it for the first 10 minutes of a match and unless it brings its rewards in this time, it completely drops off thereafter.

However, where this also breaks down is in midfield/across the back.

As we often sit deeper than is ideal, largely to facilitate Maguire's lack of mobility/DDG's lack of ability to sweep, there is generally a huge disconnect between the forward line and midfield, making it all to easy to play through.