Fantasy Draft - Pippa vs rpitroda

Who will win based on players'peak?

  • Total voters
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  • Poll closed .

crappycraperson

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Pippa said:
The team is built from the back with a superb back line and goalkeeper. Gianluca Pagliuca was one of the best goalkeepers of his time with incredible reflexes and reaction saves. In front of him are 4 all-around defenders in both offensive and defensive phases.

Zanetti and Cole are both capable of holding their own -- Cristiano and Giggs both said Cole and Zanetti are the best fullbacks they have ever faced -- and they can contribute in support phases. Vieri's strength or Henry's quickness would be up against a formidable, complete central defensive pairing in Lúcio and Thiago Silva. Silva is the best defender on the field.

Here is a normal diamond formation. If you can't beat the opposition individually, increase the numbers to give an advantage. Keane and Vieira were outstanding midfielders, but they were not superhumans.

I have an elite deep-lying playmaker in Xabi Alonso flanked by two complete midfielders in Esteban Cambiasso and Rubén Baraja. Cambiasso stronger defensively, Baraja stronger offensively. Narrow enough to combat the threat of a top playmaker in Laudrup. Good enough to compete against even the best. All three of them are able to create goals, and their presence will be alleviated by none other than ...

Zinedine Zidane. Inconsistent but against the best, he often put in iconic performances. He can recycle play, hold on the ball with his phenomenal technique and create openings. And he can score and create goals. The perfect #10.

My two forwards are Raúl and Hugo Sánchez, two Real Madrid legends. Raúl in his traditional secondary striker role he played from 1999-2003, where he scored 144 goals in 258 matches. And Hugo Sánchez as the primary striker, where from 1985-1990 he scored 184 goals in 248 matches. The 3rd and 4th all-time top scorers in Spanish football history.

I believe that I have the better attack, a better #10, and better defenders. The only difference is in central midfield. I believe that I have the team quality and predatory force to win this match.
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Team Pippa

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vs

Team Rpitroda

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rpitroda said:
TACTICAL OVERVIEW

The team sheet above highlights the unique blend of both physical and technical qualities that this team possesses. The overall strategy of the team is to initate fast, direct, and devastating attacks. Despite my team’s ability to maintain control of the football, the team will look to exploit the pace of Pires and Laudrup on the wings, by using M Laudrup as a focal point to use his esquisite movement and devastating creative ability to carve openings for the wingers and Vieri. The team will maximise the physical strengths of Vieri by providing supply both to play off him but also for him to bury into the back of the net. My midfield has so much energy that they can contribute in both phases, and enough intelligence that Keane and Vieira will position themselves as such to ensure the defence is never exposed on the break. The understanding my defense has will allow them to cope, especially with the cover of B Laudrup who has the energy to go up and down the right flank, and Keane and Vieira who are notorious for their work rate to protect but also spring out at the right time.

HOW THE GAME WILL BE WON

- A big advantage for me is in the centre of the park. Although Pippa is blessed with exceptional technical quality, one thing he lacks is a physical presence and real pace. How will they cope with arguably two of the most energetic, physical, and bullish midfielders to ever grace the game? Veron and Alonso are wonderful passers, but have come exposed in the past when brought under significant pressure. How will Pippa supply the ball from deep if these guys are under pressure?

- Pippa has wonderful attacking options, but again, my defense has the luxary of Keane and Vieira in the middle to significantly dent his creative players from performing to their optimum levels. Furthermore, the narrow nature of his side also significantly affects his ability to go around them, and it also helps Evra and Neville tuck in when in defensive positions. This creates both numbers, physical presence, and astute defensive ability protecting my goal. This will be difficult to break down.

- Pippa’s strikers have a lethal instinct, however this will be countered by the understanding and knowledge that Bruce and Pallister have of having played together for years. Remember their performance together is much greater than the sum of their parts. With Nevill and Evra able to tuck in a bit due to the narrow nature of Pippa’s side, and RK and PV holding the line, they’ll struggle to get the joy they’d normally get.

- Although Lucio and Silva are excellent defenders, the protection they have is much more thinner than my defense. His defensive midielders are more “deep playmakers” rather than true holding ball winning defenders. How will they cope with the movement, creativity, and fast-thinking Laudrup? How will they cope with Pires and B Laudrup, who are extraodrinarily fast with great ball control and ability to supply? These guys can go down the wing or cut in, which significantly creates pressure on the defence of Pippa especially when none of his midfielders are true defensive ball winners, and his attacking players are not particualrly hard working. This will allow me to attack fast with lethal effect as his team will not be able to cope with the pace.

- Summary of key points is therefore:

· My midfield has the energy and legs to significantly impact his attacking ability, while they can also contribute going forward.

· His defence lacks real protection from a true defensive player in front of them, which will allow Laudrup and my two wingers to run riot on the defence.

· My midfield has the energy and power to cope with the numbers, and the intellect to make the right decisions at the right time.

· Keeping numbers back will significantly help to counter his attacking threat, and given the pace of my wingers, the technical creativity of Laudrup, and Vieri’s ability to hold up the ball but also get on the end of chances and finish them, my team has the ability to attack fast with lethal effect.

· His team lacks width, which allows my team to narrow in defence, but also expose them going forward by applying the width.
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rpitroda said:
TEAM SHEET OVERVIEW

VDS had a long and successful career, accumulating various individual and team honors, and breaking numerous records along the way. Renowned for his distribution, fantastic reflexes, and all-round game with virtually no weakness, VDS made history both in total caps for the Netherlands, but record time gone without conceding a goal (1,311 minutes). A shrewd organiser, his value in ensuring the back 4 perform their duties to perfection should not be ignored, nor should his brilliant distribution which, with the likes of the Laudrups and Pires operating in attacking areas, could lead to numerous chances. Having won the Champions League both at the start and towards the end of his career, VDS was not only magnificent for a short burst, but throughout his long and distinguished career.

In front of VDS operate Pallister and Bruce. Regarded by most as the best defensive partnership to have graced the Premier League (ahead of the likes of Kolo/Sol, Rio/Vidic, and Terry/Carvalho), the partnership brought astute defensive abilities, pace, organisation, and composure on the ball. A proven partnership in real life, the two would, as they did, produce a performance which is significantly greater than the sum of it’s parts (a la Yorke/Cole).

To complete my Man Utd defensive line up, I have Neville and Evra, arguably two of our best full backs in history. The defence combines the best of the beginning of the sucessful Man Utd era, a class of 92 representative in Neville, and the modern success represnted by Evra. Neville was an astute defender, comfortable on the ball and able to contribute going forward. Evra in his prime was fast, energetic, as lethal as any left back going forward, and a solid defender.

The spine of my team could not be better represented than the midfield combination of Vieira and Keane. An honour to be able to field these two legends next to each other on the same field, they are indeed renowned for their fierce rivalry. Often touted as similar, they actually have a perfect blend in qualities to create the ultimate hard working midfield. Keane has the better ball control, composure, and passing range. Vieira is the better defender, and able to keep the ball ticking. No blade of grass would go untouched. No opposition player would have even a split second to blink with these two hounding them down. Soft skill should also not be ignored. Notorious were both players in driving their teams forward, and no doubt they would ensure 100% commitment across the park.

The attacking quartet is comprised of the Laudrup brothers, Pires and Vieri. M Laudrup, voted the best foreign player in spain in 1999 for the preceding 25 years (a period which included the likes of Maradonna, Romario, Ronaldo(9), Stoichkov, and many many more), was a brilliant playmaker. Notorious for his elegent playing style, astounding technical ability, and natural talent, Laudrup pulled the strings through his ingenuity and creativity. An exemplary gentlemen (never picked up a red card), he was a true leader by example and has received high praise from all echealons of the game. Pires takes up the left flank position. Pires ha da unique combination of skills in that he was excellent as dribbling, passing, and shooting, which allowed him to not only rack up numerous assists throughout his career, but also score a number of esquisite goals. Pires was technically supreme, despite a career hampered by injuries. Although he took time to adjust to the English game, once he did he was a key component of the Arsenal side that went undefeated for a whole season. On the other flank, B Laudrupis reunited with his brother in this team, and has himself had a brilliant career. His exceptional pace and near perfect ball control allowed him to beat defenders with ease, and his unselfish nature allowed him to create wonderful opportunities to those around him; a perfect situation with the likes of Laudrup(M) and Vieri around to pounce on chances, along with Pires. Which leads on perfectly to Vieri, who at one point was regarded as the best striker in Europe and was the most expensive player in the world after his 1999 transfer. Vieri was a tough forward, strong and this allowed him to excel in duals in the air. This is a perfect complement to the creativity that he has behind him to supply him. Vieri was a deadly finisher, and had wonderful technique despite his strong presence.
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Diamond formation seems to have become the new 4231 for the drafts. Easy get out if you can't get good wingers in and load yourself with CMs.

Not sure about it's advantage here. The extra man in MF would not matter when the other two are - Keane and Vieira.

Clear problem for trippy is his CB pair against the front two of Pippa. Sanchez and Raul is just too much for Pally and Bruce to handle. Pippa could have done with someone to cross the ball into the box though. As it is he misses someone who could go wide to stretch the play a bit.

It comes down to the CM duo of trippy really. Zidane + Raul/Sanchez combo is where Pippa can win the game and those two will need to stop that from happening.
 
crappycraperson said:
Diamond formation seems to have become the new 4231 for the drafts. Easy get out if you can't get good wingers in and load yourself with CMs.

Not sure about it's advantage here. The extra man in MF would not matter when the other two are - Keane and Vieira.

Clear problem for trippy is his CB pair against the front two of Pippa. Sanchez and Raul is just too much for Pally and Bruce to handle. Pippa could have done with someone to cross the ball into the box though. As it is he misses someone who could go wide to stretch the play a bit.

It comes down to the CM duo of trippy really. Zidane + Raul/Sanchez combo is where Pippa can win the game and those two will need to stop that from happening.
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The thing is, though, Pippa has no width. Raul and Sanchez vs Bruce and Pally could be an issue (though Bruce and Pallister are a very good CB combination - there is a reason why they say they are the best in PL history, which says a lot when you consider there has been the likes of Sol/Kolo, Rio/Vida, Terry/Carvalho), but Pippa has no width which makes it very very easy for Vieira and Keane to focus on that midfield area. Not to mention, Evra and Neville can also tuck in when defending as width isn't a significant threat. And again, Laudrup and Pires can also add to numbers centrally in defensive positions. Pippa effectively has thrown all his cards into going through the middle, but actually when you realise that by doing so it frees up all the wide players to also come in and have much more space when they attack, it is extremely difficult to see how that 1 tactic will score you many goals.

Also, I'm concerned about the supply Zidane, Raul and Sanchez would get? If you have more energy, more ability, more aggression, more passion, and more pretty much everything with Keane and Vieira vs Cambiasso and Baraja, and Laudrup also performing a role on Alonso, that significantly cuts there supply. There is no wide out ball.
 
I agree with crappy, but I want to add that I'm not sure how Cambiasso and Xabi are going to limit Laudrup's influence, neither faced such a great player and won.
 
VivaJanuzaj said:
I agree with crappy, but I want to add that I'm not sure how Cambiasso and Xabi are going to limit Laudrup's influence, neither faced such a great player and won.
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They aren't - Alonso isn't exactly a work horse of a defensive midfielder - he is much more a deep lying playmaker. And Once Cambiasso and Baraja need to work hard on Laudrup, this could cause a problem since Vieira and Keane are no slouches going forward. Not to mention, we are completely ignoring the whole width thing. Laudrup and Pires are not standing around twitching their thumbs. And Evra and Neville are capable of supporting too, although defending comes first for them.
 
rpitroda said:
The thing is, though, Pippa has no width. Raul and Sanchez vs Bruce and Pally could be an issue (though Bruce and Pallister are a very good CB combination - there is a reason why they say they are the best in PL history, which says a lot when you consider there has been the likes of Sol/Kolo, Rio/Vida, Terry/Carvalho), but Pippa has no width which makes it very very easy for Vieira and Keane to focus on that midfield area. Not to mention, Evra and Neville can also tuck in when defending as width isn't a significant threat. And again, Laudrup and Pires can also add to numbers centrally in defensive positions. Pippa effectively has thrown all his cards into going through the middle, but actually when you realise that by doing so it frees up all the wide players to also come in and have much more space when they attack, it is extremely difficult to see how that 1 tactic will score you many goals.

Also, I'm concerned about the supply Zidane, Raul and Sanchez would get? If you have more energy, more ability, more aggression, more passion, and more pretty much everything with Keane and Vieira vs Cambiasso and Baraja, and Laudrup also performing a role on Alonso, that significantly cuts there supply. There is no wide out ball.
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Even if someone rated your CB pair as best of the PL era, they are up against it against Sanchez and Raul. Sanchez's record for Madrid is like Ruud's for United. Raul will be in his element as a second striker. Problem as you rightly said is that they both could have done with a player to provide proper width and put those crosses/balls in. That certainly does allow your CM due to congest the middle and they won't be dragged out wide. While it is all on Zidane, Baraja too gets underrated here. He is capable of linking up and creating as well. But Pippa really would be better off with a winger instead of him.

This looks a bit goalless to me right now if I am honest. I rate Laudrup but Cambiasso and Alonso can do a job on him. Even if they can't on occasions, his CB pair is good and can deal with Vieira. Cole and Zanetti against your wingers and enough as well. Your only way to score for me is hitting him with numbers. Evra + Pires against Zanetti would force either one CB or require Baraja to track back. If he does not, that could be one way to open up the space.
 
crappycraperson said:
Even if someone rated your CB pair as best of the PL era, they are up against it against Sanchez and Raul. Sanchez's record for Madrid is like Ruud's for United. Raul will be in his element as a second striker. Problem as you rightly said is that they both could have done with a player to provide proper width and put those crosses/balls in. That certainly does allow your CM due to congest the middle and they won't be dragged out wide. While it is all on Zidane, Baraja too gets underrated here. He is capable of linking up and creating as well. But Pippa really would be better off with a winger instead of him.

This looks a bit goalless to me right now if I am honest. I rate Laudrup but Cambiasso and Alonso can do a job on him. Even if they can't on occasions, his CB pair is good and can deal with Vieira. Cole and Zanetti against your wingers and enough as well. Your only way to score for me is hitting him with numbers. Evra + Pires against Zanetti would force either one CB or require Baraja to track back. If he does not, that could be one way to open up the space.
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Not sure I agree with that. Alonso and Cambiasso doing a job on Laudrup? So, that leaves Baraja to do a job on Keane and Vieira? Even if Vieira stays deep to cover Zidane, Keane vs Baraja is a complete and utter mismatch. You say Baraja is being underrated but you've gone the other way with that surely? People so very quickly forget Keane was a capable player attacking too. Not to mention, I have the one thing Pippa doesn't and that is options on the wing. The game can't really get overly tight for me, there is always an out ball. Cole and Zanetti won't push right up onto Laudrup and Pires which means if they drop deeper a bit to find space, and Cambinasso and Alonso are working on Laudrup, then these guys will ALWAYS have space.

Let's analyse a step further. What happens when I pick up the ball on the wing? Player in space running at the full back. Suddenly the play opens up because either a CB also has to help, or a midfielder tracks wide to the winger - never do you just completely leave a winger 1vs1 against a full back (all good in theory, show me a game where that happens often). Not to mention if Evra attacks. Neville is more focused on defending in this set up - and the key penetration point is that left wing with Pires being able to go down the wing or cut in, with Evra actually offering both of those options too. Laudrup (B) is an extremely fast player. You give him the ball in space too, and he can cause some serious damage. That's the thing really - while the midfield will be super congested and tough, I have an outball. I don't see where Pippa's is.

Finally Vieri - he's a big strong guy and a very good finisher too. He's someone you can play off or play through. And with wingers like Pires and Laudrup, and Evra on the overlap, and Laudrup who WILL find space in the game (because I don't buy alonso and cambiasso can do a job on him), he will have plenty of chances.
 
rpitroda said:
Not sure I agree with that. Alonso and Cambiasso doing a job on Laudrup? So, that leaves Baraja to do a job on Keane and Vieira? Even if Vieira stays deep to cover Zidane, Keane vs Baraja is a complete and utter mismatch. You say Baraja is being underrated but you've gone the other way with that surely? People so very quickly forget Keane was a capable player attacking too. Not to mention, I have the one thing Pippa doesn't and that is options on the wing. The game can't really get overly tight for me, there is always an out ball. Cole and Zanetti won't push right up onto Laudrup and Pires which means if they drop deeper a bit to find space, and Cambinasso and Alonso are working on Laudrup, then these guys will ALWAYS have space.

Let's analyse a step further. What happens when I pick up the ball on the wing? Player in space running at the full back. Suddenly the play opens up because either a CB also has to help, or a midfielder tracks wide to the winger - never do you just completely leave a winger 1vs1 against a full back (all good in theory, show me a game where that happens often). Not to mention if Evra attacks. Neville is more focused on defending in this set up - and the key penetration point is that left wing with Pires being able to go down the wing or cut in, with Evra actually offering both of those options too. Laudrup (B) is an extremely fast player. You give him the ball in space too, and he can cause some serious damage. That's the thing really - while the midfield will be super congested and tough, I have an outball. I don't see where Pippa's is.

Finally Vieri - he's a big strong guy and a very good finisher too. He's someone you can play off or play through. And with wingers like Pires and Laudrup, and Evra on the overlap, and Laudrup who WILL find space in the game (because I don't buy alonso and cambiasso can do a job on him), he will have plenty of chances.
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Just like a fullback is not left 1v1 often with a winger, you cannot leave your CB pair 2v2 with his front two, which is even more dangerous and that completely changes what you wrote in the first para. You need one of Keane or Vieira to stay in close attention to Raul who will drop deep as well and leave the other to act as the link between midfield and attack while minding Zizou.
 
The moment one sees a diamond, it is writted off as with lack of width. With Cambiasso and Baraja there, Zanetti and Cole are well capable of providing that width and getting crosses in. Again Diamond is just a formation that offers advantage in other areas of the pitch. Alonso's defensive abilities are also underrated in the cafe. he may not be a hard running defender, but his reading of the game and positioning are very good.

Not quite come to a conclusion yet as Keane/Vieira is just monstrous. Will give it a bit more thought.
 
Aldo said:
Just like a fullback is not left 1v1 often with a winger, you cannot leave your CB pair 2v2 with his front two, which is even more dangerous and that completely changes what you wrote in the first para. You need one of Keane or Vieira to stay in close attention to Raul who will drop deep as well and leave the other to act as the link between midfield and attack while minding Zizou.
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As I said, Neville and Evra will have significant leeway to come and sit narrow given Pippa's lack of wide players. Also in defensive positions, of course Keane and Vieira will be protecting the back four. And they have the energy to do it all day long. My post was more to explain why I don't think it will be goalless, rather than my defensive tactics. Keane and Vieira possess so much energy that they can contribute effectively to both phases. Plyus they have the intelligence to know when to do what. Also, I don't see Pippa as having a team that will be blindingly fast in counter. Given the energy in my team, i do believe i will not be caught out.
 
Edgar Allan Pillow said:
The moment one sees a diamond, it is writted off as with lack of width. With Cambiasso and Baraja there, Zanetti and Cole are well capable of providing that width and getting crosses in. Again Diamond is just a formation that offers advantage in other areas of the pitch. Alonso's defensive abilities are also underrated in the cafe. he may not be a hard running defender, but his reading of the game and positioning are very good.

Not quite come to a conclusion yet as Keane/Vieira is just monstrous. Will give it a bit more thought.
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It's all good being a great reader and having great positioning, we are not talking about some average no.10 here. We are talking about Michael Laudrup.

Also, whenever someone sees a diamond formation, it's quickly over-compensated to hammer home the point that it doesn't lack width equally as much as someone writing it off as lacking width. The fact is, it does lack width. It is up to you to decide how much of an impact that is, but to say a diamond doesn't lack width is just incorrect.
 
Edgar Allan Pillow said:
The moment one sees a diamond, it is writted off as with lack of width. With Cambiasso and Baraja there, Zanetti and Cole are well capable of providing that width and getting crosses in. Again Diamond is just a formation that offers advantage in other areas of the pitch. Alonso's defensive abilities are also underrated in the cafe. he may not be a hard running defender, but his reading of the game and positioning are very good.

Not quite come to a conclusion yet as Keane/Vieira is just monstrous. Will give it a bit more thought.
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Not true. Your/Gandalf's diamond with Zidane in it actually won against Pippa last time when he had proper width in his side. Infact you made the final with Brwned using a diamond like formation.

Cole is not the type of full back to provide the width without a body in front of him. Zanetti can run a wing but he is more likely to penetrate than stick out wide and put the ball in.
 
Laudrup is being massively underrated and misunderstood. The bad thing about him is that he won't help midfield battle too much, but the good is much more important, he's the most creative player on the pitch by miles, imo he's much better than Zidane with creating by himself a chance, he can beat his marker and easier than Zizou and nick that pass to any of Pires, B.Laudrup or Vieri. To be fair I don't think Vieri is the right striker to tag with Laudrup, but I think it will work. Laudrup's touches were brilliant, and suggesting Cambiasso can do a job on him is pretty funny, I'd place all my money on Laudrup to be the most influential player at this game, because like Trippy said, Keano/Viera are no slouches going forward and will need some noticing too.
I just want to make it clear, I'm not necessarily saying that Laudrup is better than Zidane, I just think he can create goals by beating his markers in this game more easily.
The stretching of the play is also really underrated, with Pires and B.Laudrup, Zanetti and Cole won't be able to provide the width necessary for a diamond to thrive imo.

On the other hand, like someone said, Keane/Viera will need to be wary and help out against Raul and Sanchez, who against this CB pairing can score a goal through any mistake the defense makes.
Tough decision but I'm leaning towards rpitroda
 
Aldo said:
Just like a fullback is not left 1v1 often with a winger, you cannot leave your CB pair 2v2 with his front two, which is even more dangerous and that completely changes what you wrote in the first para. You need one of Keane or Vieira to stay in close attention to Raul who will drop deep as well and leave the other to act as the link between midfield and attack while minding Zizou.
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Yeah, the reason why I said this could be goalless is because I don't think he can afford to free either of Keane/Vieira to go forward.
 
Both teams are really well executed. Mainly because both teams here are handling the opponents main threats really well. For me this is going to be a game won by the smaller players in the team who will get space as the stars are congested.

Alonso will be the main man for Pippa rather than Zidane who will spend most of the game making sure Vieira and Keane are occupied so the others can thrive. Finding Raul and Sanchez with long-balls in to space.

For Rpitroda I see Pires and Brian as the routes to goal, they will have support from their full-backs all game for 2 vs 1 scenarios out wide and it will lead to stuff much easier than finding Laudrup/Keane/Vieira centrally in a really congested area.
 
This quite difficult. Both teams have things going for them and others against.

Pippa's extra man in midfield just about, maybe, manages to match the workrate of Keane and Vieira, and I include the bonus of having three bodies there. I can't for the life of me see how they would stop Laudrup though. Vieri isn't the ideal striker to play off him, I would prefer that combination if there was more scope for an open game and counter-attacking but don't see how Pippa would expose himself regularly. Laudrup will however work well with Pires and Brian and they instead (with Gazza's and Evra's support) will shower that box with crossses. Vieri will be in his element with those, not with Laudrup playing him on specifically.

On the other hand I don't see the diamond offering Pippa any advantage in midfield, it is largely damage limitation, the bonus is in two strikers instead of one. I don't really like the pair though, something is a bit off with Raúl-Sanchez. It would be wrong to say they are too similar, but they often played with a striker of different characteristics, while they would be the primary goalscorer. Not sure how Raúl-Zidane will work either. They are both deployed centrally, when I fully expect one to largely work the left/inside left channel and the other centrally. I'd prefer Zidane to be going left, Raul central as support striker. I think that would support Sanchez effectively from that side, then on the right you have Baraja charging and Zanetti. If Pippa had anyone but Zanetti it would be far easier to call this, but it's Pupi. He will need to have the game of his life to keep that balanced, but he is well capable of delivering what is required of him.

It's all quite even, I can see both sides having relative freedom to operate (Laudrup completely unshackled, Zidane less so but being able to shake off any constant attention with Raúl dropping). Believe it or not, if it comes down to Sanchez vs. Bruce and Pallister or Vieri vs. Lucio and Thiago I'm inclined to see Vieri getting more joy aerially (a significant part of both of their games). Problem is it doesn't just come down to that, trippy 4 defensive passengers and Pippa has three (although Laudrup could work his socks off, occasionally, but I guess the same holds for Zidane), that will occasionally find his defence overloaded with players and runs to deal with.

It's a low scoring game ranging from 1-0 to 2-1, never a four goal game, and most likely a 1-1.
 
4-0? Pippa needs to wake up and smell the coffee: this is redcafe, not merenguecafe.
 
Width from fullbacks is not only limited to bombing down the wing. Even straying past the half-line can constitute supporting the flanks and stretching the opposition. If Chris Smalling could do exactly that, I have absolutely no doubt that Cole and Zanetti could.

The four in midfield is important. Why? Keane and Vieira were not mutants (had the same problem last time). Both were exceptional box-to-box midfielders. The ball moves faster than the players on the pitch. One -- or both of them -- should have to hold back in order to support against the movement of Raúl which alongside Hugol would trouble the defence. The other would have to keep in mind the presence of Zidane when he drops deep or runs into pockets of space to orchestrate play. And then there are three other centre midfielders (Cambiasso, Baraja, Alonso) on my team. I don't see the logic when someone says "it's not an advantage".

That is unless you want to assume that Pallister and Bruce would receive basic support from their midfielders, against Raúl and Hugo Sánchez. There are two winners in that duel, both of them are on my team.

It's not funny at all to suggest that Cambiasso could help curb the influence of Michael Laudrup. It's just revisionism or ignorance. Barcelona in 2009-10 had no answer to the Inter wall in midfield, which included Zanetti and Cambiasso. Cambiasso was regarded by Italian media as Inter's best player over both legs. The same Barcelona team that included Messi, Xavi, etc. Cambiasso was Inter's most consistent player from 2005-2010, Inter's most successful era ever. He's one of the best holding midfielders of all time.

And it's not even mentioning the impact that Baraja and Alonso have defensively. Against Bayern, that compact midfield two of Modric-Alonso completely stopped Bayern's threat through the middle. This is a Xabi Alonso with almost no mobility...so imagine the Alonso of two years ago when you think about his prime. Baraja was one of the most complete midfielders in Europe from 2001-2004 -- and he consistently performed well in UEFA competition, unlike Vieira.

Raúl-Hugol against Pallister-Bruce is comfortably a bigger mismatch than Vieri against Lúcio-Silva. Firstly, because I have the best central defender on the field (Silva). Secondly, Vieri wouldn't beat either of my central defenders with speed nor with skill. Physicality? Look at Inter vs Chelsea 2010 (Lúcio/Samuel vs Drogba) if you think Vieri would bully Lúcio with his strength.
 
Cole and Zanetti are more than capable of supporting the attack whilst performing their defensive duties. It's what they were best at for a lot of their careers. When Cole was at Arsenal, these are what three coaches said about him:

Strachan: “Cole, basically a wing-back or winger playing in a back four, has got amazing energy and there's so much to his game. He's got the ability to open teams up because he can beat people, run with the ball and without it, and see passes.”

Wenger: “He is a defender, who simply loves to attack. Defends, because he has to defend and because it is part of his job. Everybody loves to play with [him] because as soon as you won the ball back, he was up there to attack.”

Erikkson: “So fast and dangerous going forward, it’s like having another left-winger to deal with. I like my defenders to play football, but he can defend too.”

Cambiasso may not be a Pirès, but he is no Makélélé either. Same with Baraja on the right side. There is no problem with real width. Raúl drifted all over the pitch, that's how he created opportunities. He wasn't a Zidane but he pulled players out of position and moved into pockets of space where he was most devastating. He played left forward under Capello in 1996-97 and scored 22 goals from that position as a 19 year old.

Zidane played centrally at Juventus but he moved left on occasion, and at Real Madrid he would come into space from the left with the ball. There is no real problem with width, I'm not asking one of my fullbacks to "sit" on a winger and then say he provides width -- something that happened against me last time.

Raúl won 2 pichichi and 3 CL top striker awards from 1998-2002. Hugo Sánchez won 5 pichichi from 1985-1990. That's the clearest route to goal.
 
Cole is fine attacking wise, only if he has a winger to support. He has never played in a team that asked him to run a wing alone and he simply does not have it in his locker to do so. His best attacking performances came at Arsenal where he combined with Pires and Henry on the left.
 
crappycraperson said:
Cole is fine attacking wise, only if he has a winger to support. He has never played in a team that asked him to run a wing alone and he simply does not have it in his locker to do so. His best attacking performances came at Arsenal where he combined with Pires and Henry on the left.
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I agree that his best attacking performances came at Arsenal. But under Ancelotti, I'm sure Cole was a threat down that left side for Chelsea when Carlo used the diamond.
 
crappycraperson said:
Cole is fine attacking wise, only if he has a winger to support. He has never played in a team that asked him to run a wing alone and he simply does not have it in his locker to do so. His best attacking performances came at Arsenal where he combined with Pires and Henry on the left.
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But that was when he would attack a lot down his wing. He isn't being asked to bomb forward in this role, but rather to play in the middle third. That's providing width as it stretches the two-man midfield of Keane-Vieira or separates his defenders. That's what I am looking for out of him.

To say that my team would not have any width is a joke.
 
This is very close. Still think very much the same I did this morning (Vieri will be more comfortable aerially vs. Lucio and Thiago than Sanchez against Bruce and Pallister). I do expect Pippa to have more possession, but he is facing a very sturdy All-Premiership and All-but-one United back five and midfield which will perform better than the sum of parts.

Proven partnerships aside, both CB pairs could do with taking one off the other. Pippa has the better footballers but I'm not sure how well they would work together (Silva is nothing like Samuel or, uhn, err, Roque Junior), while trippy could do with some of that class in possession but you can't argue with such a proven pair.

Two things settle it for me: 1. Trippy on the break would be a handful the way the game is laid out, let alone if he happened to score first, I don't see Pippa getting as significant an advantage if the opposition is forced to push forward, 2. Trippy still has a relatively straightforward route to goal with his fullbacks free to support in attack and help shower crosses for the man who holds the record for most headed goals in Italy. Actually, had it not been Zanetti at RB I would have voted this morning.
 
I've voted Pippa. Alonso, Cambiasso and Baraja in front of the back 4 will essentially throttle any threat Laudrup may generate. With the 3 in front, Cole and Zanetti are more than capapble of snuffing out threat from wide arease. When truppy is on the attack, I'm expecting one of Keane/Viera to be operating forward supporting the attack. So Pippa counters, Raul and Zidane will just shade it. I think when in possession, Pippa has better chance to score than trippy does. A slim advantage, but still one I think.
 
pippa's back 5 is extraordinarily good, but crappy's midfield three there looks like a perfect storm. Laudrup-Vieira-Keane, that's fantastic, but i've gone for Pippa, That midfield of Baraja-cambiasso-zidane is a blend of technique, power, dictator, interceptor, tackler, and distributor. I think Alonso is a little redundant, a more defensively astute player at the holding role would've been more useful, but cambiasso's presence is the tipper for me, probably the most underrated defensive midfielder/midfield tackler in the last 30 years. That back 5 is just perfect as well, Pagliuca was one of the greatest ever italian keepers, and he was unmatched in his ability to organize defences, and with lucio-thiago-silva-cole-zanetti? that's a defence without a hole, and monstrous quality at every point.
 
antohan said:
Trippy still has a relatively straightforward route to goal with his fullbacks free to support in attack and help shower crosses for the man who holds the record for most headed goals in Italy. Actually, had it not been Zanetti at RB I would have voted this morning.
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That's not a straightforward route to goal. Whipping in crosses is a mixed bag. On the best of days, you could get a couple of goals from crosses. On the worst of days, you could get this:



Vieri is an aerial threat, but Lúcio was a phenomenal defender when it came to strength and aerial ability. A prime Drogba could not escape the death grip of Lúcio and Samuel, both aerially and on the ground. Neither could Ibrahimovic -- Lúcio tore his shirt in an aerial duel, for example.

I did a quick Google search on Vieri and Drogba:

Vieri - 84 kg, 1.86m
Drogba - 84 kg, 1.89m

A prime Drogba was obviously a more physical forward than Vieri, but against Inter he was reduced to diving and nothing else.

Trippy has one major goalscoring threat in Vieri, I have two in Sánchez-Raúl. I'm not exactly sure why you would compare the aerial prowess of the three when Raúl was 1.77m, Sánchez was 1.75m, and Vieri was 1.86m.

Say what you want about natural understanding between central defenders, but it makes no difference when there is a large quality and situational difference.
 
antohan said:
Pippa has the better footballers but I'm not sure how well they would work together (Silva is nothing like Samuel or, uhn, err, Roque Junior), while trippy could do with some of that class in possession but you can't argue with such a proven pair.
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Silva brought a 34-year old injury-riddled Alessandro Nesta into relevance again. Nesta himself credited Silva with extending his career as a partner. And the partnership excelled. Silva was the dominant half of pairing with a spastic in David Luiz. Both were and have been superb for the NT. Silva has put in world-class performances playing with the likes of Alex and Marquinhos for PSG. I'm not sure how you can argue that Silva might have trouble playing alongside any other central defender. He's done it all.

I recall Lúcio playing alongside a younger Demichelis. The younger version of Lúcio always used to leave position and create gaps in defence when he ran up the field, a bit like David Luiz. That was the only weakness he had as a defender. Mourinho hated that trait of Lúcio, and Lúcio knew that. In 2010 after their treble, he talked about how Mourinho forced him to stay back instead of attacking often. And it worked like a miracle. Lúcio may not be a cnut like Samuel, but he is a very tough defender. Silva's more "gentlemanly" in his style.

That proven pair of Pallister-Bruce was only recognised in the weakest era of Premier League football. Neither of them had an international reputation.
Malva said:
I think Alonso is a little redundant, a more defensively astute player at the holding role would've been more useful.
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I disagree with that. Xabi is a fantastic outlet through the centre of the pitch and he is very capable of dropping in between the central defence to hold up and slow down play, let alone playing an out ball. He provides a deep-lying threat which only improves the ball-retention ability of my team. For example, Xabi in his worst season for Real Madrid (2012-13, IMO) was recognised by Kloppo as the main threat of the team.

"We knew where they would send their passes, how they look for Cristiano," Klopp said. "Our plan was to take Xabi [Alonso] out of the game. Because if Alonso can play as he wants it is impossible to defend against Madrid. And [Mario] Gotze covered him. We knew that if our full-backs, [Lukasz] Piszczek and [Marcel] Schmelzer, moved around a lot, the advantage would be on our side against Cristiano. If you block Xabi, you make it so Pepe always has the ball. That is a big difference."
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A peak Xabi (2011-12) is exactly what a team like this needs, from playing quick diagonals to the fullbacks, playing short passes to the other central midfielders, or lifting a long ball over the top of the defence. You may think it's redundant, I think it's exactly what my team needs to alleviate pressure and to support the other three midfielders on my team.
 
Firstly, sorry haven't been around to comment.

Nesta and Silva formed a brilliant partnership. But just because they did doesn't make Silva "the player who made one of the best defenders ever relevant". That's nonsense. It's a bit like Bruce and Pallister really. Put two together and you have a combination that works and a combination that works is vitally important in football. Make the mistake of just picking the best players and you end up like the English national team.

I do not buy that Alonso will be able to contain Laudrup. I've never heard such rubbish really. Alonso is a wonderful player, one of the best deep lying playmakers in the game. He's astute defensively too. Put we are talking about one of the best no10s in history here. Not your average joe that he'd come against. Even with the aid of Cambiasso, you are then leaving your remaining 4 against my back 4 and Keane and Vieira. I know who I'd back.

Also, you talk about spraying diagonals and quick passes in the middle. How will you spray diagonals? You have only two players on the whole pitch who offer you width. No one else even remotely offers width. It's only your fullbacks. I don't see how they'll have any space whatsoever as I have two extremely fast wingers and two very good wing backs.

Also you talk about quick passes in the middle. One of the most congested areas of the pitch. Or a ball over the top. Raul and Sanchez and Zidane are great but not exactly known for their ability to pick up balls over the top.

The set up of your team requires you to play through me. I don't see how you can given you can't stretch play and you have two of the best ever energetic midfielders the game as ever seen.

People are voting on the names rather than the actual match. The tactical flaws of a diamond against my team are so obvious, to me anyway. He's put all his eggs into trumping me in the middle. How anyone thinks that is a good strategy vs Keane and Vieira is beyond me.

Finally no one has told me how he stops my wingers, who will virtually always be free. If Keane and Vieira are sitting, one full back can help and that creates an overload on each flank. Pires was a lethal goal scorer at his peak and Vieri is a lethal finisher himself. And B Laudrup is one of the most unselfish players with a great assist record. He's fast and tricky as is pires. And what is even funnier is Pippa is saying Cole and Zanetti will be pushing up for diagonals. Which would leave his back 2 and Alonso and Cambiasso against my front 4. That is a death wish.

Vote on the tactics and the flaws in Pippas game plan, not just the players.
 
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