been ill in bed with the flu for a week so this has been an interesting contest to recuperate in front of. might just be able to eek the illness out one more day to see England (barring any mishaps) pick up the 274 
ENG v NZ
- Thread starter GiggsysGirl
- Start date
I'm tipping Arnie's army to overcome Ellie's jellies.
Been a great Test so far and 274 shouldn't be beyond our batsmen. Reckon it'll be close, we should squeak home with a couple of wickets to spare.
Simon Jones bowled great before lunch today, can't believe he came away with such ordinary figures. If only feckin' Hair had given McCallum out when he gloved that catch behind yesterday....still, a gritty batting display tomorrow will underline this as the best English team for nearly 20 years.
Come on England !!!
Been a great Test so far and 274 shouldn't be beyond our batsmen. Reckon it'll be close, we should squeak home with a couple of wickets to spare.
Simon Jones bowled great before lunch today, can't believe he came away with such ordinary figures. If only feckin' Hair had given McCallum out when he gloved that catch behind yesterday....still, a gritty batting display tomorrow will underline this as the best English team for nearly 20 years.
Come on England !!!
Oh..and get well soon (or by Tuesday ) GiggsysGirl - have had a touch of flu meself this week.
) GiggsysGirl - have had a touch of flu meself this week. arnie sidebottom said:Oh..and get well soon (or by Tuesday
cheers mate, pretty much back to 100% today
only kept it on in the background at first and didn't have the guts to sit down and watch properly till after the tea-break.
absolutely top quality performance from Nasser but it wasn't a one man affair (unlike NZ's Richardson) which was the key. Strauss and Harmison were equally impressive!
my opinion about our bowling has been pretty bi-polar this test! started off infuriated that Jones was chosen over Jimmy but, like you said, he did brilliantly. i was then convinced Giles would be dropped...until he took 3 wickets. Jimmy could now quite conceivably come in for Hoggard but with Hussain and Strauss undroppable and Vaughn on his way back there might not be room for either of them
Excellent result against a very competitive NZ side. Underlines our improvement, in part due to Hussain's influence so very fitting that he saw us home with his first 4th innings ton for England.
On to Headingley. Conventional wisdom is that England will play Vaughan for Giles, then Flintoff, Hoggard, Harmison and one other seamer, relying on Tresco, Butcher, Vaughan as back-up bowlers.
On a horses for courses basis (traditional Headingley movement and swing), I reckon it might be Jimmy for Jones the Ball. Although I do think Jones will get the nod for the majority of tests, unless overcast conditions are forecast.
Butcher hasn't looked comfortable at the crease in this test and his place might be under threat later in the series if Strauss continues to play well and England decide to play 4 specialist bowlers (incl a spinner) plus Freddy. Gary Keedy is being touted for an England debut this season, if Giles falls out of favour.
On to Headingley. Conventional wisdom is that England will play Vaughan for Giles, then Flintoff, Hoggard, Harmison and one other seamer, relying on Tresco, Butcher, Vaughan as back-up bowlers.
On a horses for courses basis (traditional Headingley movement and swing), I reckon it might be Jimmy for Jones the Ball. Although I do think Jones will get the nod for the majority of tests, unless overcast conditions are forecast.
Butcher hasn't looked comfortable at the crease in this test and his place might be under threat later in the series if Strauss continues to play well and England decide to play 4 specialist bowlers (incl a spinner) plus Freddy. Gary Keedy is being touted for an England debut this season, if Giles falls out of favour.
Keedy in a test match? That is a scary thought. The only time I'd consider tossing him the ball would be if we needed to get the over rate up... the captain can do that himself if needs be.
I've only made it to one days play thus far this season so perhaps I'm doing the lad an injustice, but his figures thus far this season are an aberration in my opinion. Against decent batsman he'll get pummelled. He has never been the tightest of bowlers, so against test opposition he'll fall into the Salisbury bracket, getting picked off on the regular poor ball an over.
I've only made it to one days play thus far this season so perhaps I'm doing the lad an injustice, but his figures thus far this season are an aberration in my opinion. Against decent batsman he'll get pummelled. He has never been the tightest of bowlers, so against test opposition he'll fall into the Salisbury bracket, getting picked off on the regular poor ball an over.
But he takes wickets and that's the issue.......if we need to keep it tight we stick Freddy / Hoggard on t'other end.
Does one season getting over 40 really suggest he is capable of stepping up? How many spinners have made it in test cricket without recording a consistent first class average around the 25 mark? Keedy has never put in a sub 25 season, and is bowling 33 over the last three seasons. That isn’t all that impressive, especially given some of the wickets OT has provided in recent seasons.
If you look at the wickets he takes they all to often seem to be knocking over the tail and getting sloggers. How many times has he earnt the wicket of a quality batsman? Off the top of my head I can think of him totally screwing Blewett in both innings at Canterbury last year. Maybe I only catch him on off days, but to me he never looks anything more than a very good county bowler.
Throw in his total ineptitude with the bat and you can’t see anyway he could get picked. He makes Tufnell look effective with the willow. At least Giles can stick around and earn a few runs. Keedy is a number 11 at test level. He’ll need to be really special with the ball to justify a test place.
Apart from all that we need him at Lancashire! Can’t England give Schofield another chance?
If you look at the wickets he takes they all to often seem to be knocking over the tail and getting sloggers. How many times has he earnt the wicket of a quality batsman? Off the top of my head I can think of him totally screwing Blewett in both innings at Canterbury last year. Maybe I only catch him on off days, but to me he never looks anything more than a very good county bowler.
Throw in his total ineptitude with the bat and you can’t see anyway he could get picked. He makes Tufnell look effective with the willow. At least Giles can stick around and earn a few runs. Keedy is a number 11 at test level. He’ll need to be really special with the ball to justify a test place.
Apart from all that we need him at Lancashire! Can’t England give Schofield another chance?
Hello ? Anybody out there ? Echo...echo...echo...
England win yet another series convincingly.
Jimmy Anderson recovered and odds on to start the third test against any New Zealanders currently fit and resident this week in the UK (own cricket gear optional).
Ellie - get yer whites on and get over here. Your country needs you.
England win yet another series convincingly.
Jimmy Anderson recovered and odds on to start the third test against any New Zealanders currently fit and resident this week in the UK (own cricket gear optional).
Ellie - get yer whites on and get over here. Your country needs you.
arnie sidebottom said:Hello ? Anybody out there ? Echo...echo...echo...
England win yet another series convincingly.
Jimmy Anderson recovered and odds on to start the third test against any New Zealanders currently fit and resident this week in the UK (own cricket gear optional).
Ellie - get yer whites on and get over here. Your country needs you.
i was gonna post summat yesterday but no one else had so i didn't wanna appear to be the only sad git who stayed up past 1am every night to watch the highlights
i think we should ignore the fact that the NZ bowling was beyond shit and get totally carried away...feck 2005! bring on the Aussies now
i don't think Jimmy will be available this week...he appears to have grown his hair long, changed his name to Stuart and entered Big Brother!
If we'd just lost 2 series on the bounce people wouldb e on this thread like a shot, slagging off the lads.
Engerrrrlund !! Engerrrrlund !!
Engerrrrlund !! Engerrrrlund !!
World's Premier Allrounder
Made in Lancashire
Made in Lancashire
I can't help worrying about the Windies now. If we bowl as badly to them as we did in the first innings we will be in trouble. I really wish we had a couple of consistent bowlers to fall back on if needs be. I'm dreading playing someone good with the current side. Lets just hope Jones can get fit again and actually stay fit this time.
On the plus side Jones' has done a good job with the gloves and certainly delivered with the bat. If he can keep the level up we may just have found a replacement for Russell at long last.
On the plus side Jones' has done a good job with the gloves and certainly delivered with the bat. If he can keep the level up we may just have found a replacement for Russell at long last.
Rarin' to go for the 3rd Test
Also Made in Lancashire
Also Made in Lancashire
Re Flintoff: if only he hadn't done his back. If he was still able to bowl at 100% all day he'd have been in with a shout of equalling Botham, possibly even bettering him.
Still think England should drop him for the rest of the summer though
Still think England should drop him for the rest of the summer though
Well in my view cricket opposition is much tougher now than it was when Botham was making his mark (Packer era) - Botham always struggled against true world class opposition (e.g. West Indies).
Freddy's still learning but he's proved a lot of people wrong during the past 2 years.
This the best England team for more than 20 years - with acid test still to come (Aussies). I'd like to see Fred make his mark against the Aussies and the Indians. Then we can judge him against England allrounders down the years.
Pretty impressed with Jones the Gloves as well.
Good time to be an England supporter.
Freddy's still learning but he's proved a lot of people wrong during the past 2 years.
This the best England team for more than 20 years - with acid test still to come (Aussies). I'd like to see Fred make his mark against the Aussies and the Indians. Then we can judge him against England allrounders down the years.
Pretty impressed with Jones the Gloves as well.
Good time to be an England supporter.
Forza you're a miserable bastard.
Enjoy the triumphs ffs.
Enjoy the triumphs ffs.
Forza Viola said:
Forza Viola said:
arnie sidebottom said:
arnie sidebottom said:
hmmm...Fred n Jim-ger
should be in for Saggers...fingers crossed!
arnie sidebottom said:
I agree with that.
I think Botham is probably the most overrated cricketer in history of the English game. Just look at his stats, for an indication of his abilities. He was overhyped mainly due to his heroics in the Ashes in 81, especially at Headingly.
A good bowler at his peak, no doubt ...but never in the top tier.
Sobers and Imran are probably the best two all rounders of all time.... I think both made the Wisden top 5, if I remember correctly. And rightly so.
As for Freddy. I like him. The more I see of him the better he gets. He actually looks like a frontline bowler, now. And his batting as come on leaps and bounds interms of maturity.
I see no reason why he can't become better than Beefy.
GiggsysGirl said:
Priorities my friend. Screw beating the Windies for a secong time; I actually want to see Lancashire win a Championship. With Flintoff we'd stand a great chance, without him we are just in with a shout. United's barren spell was nothing compared to Lancashire... After watching us get hammered last week and seeing Sussex thrash us all over Old Trafford today it is clear we need Flintoff in the attack, at least until Martin is fit again.
EDIT: Speaking of todays game, Keedy is once again failing to do the business when no one else is taking wickets... since I made that comment he has returned figures of 1-114 against Kent and he was 60 odd without a success a short while ago. Those great early season figures are now returning to the levels I'd expect from him.
giggzy said:
Very harsh. He put in many excellent performances, including games against the top nations. Where he wasn't helped was the lack of talent surrounding him.
For sure the media went overboard on him, but he truly deserves his place in the pantheon of greats.
Including his back? Chances are he won't have a long career, and it has already curtailed his bowling spells.
Greats?
With a bowling average of around 30, and a similar batting average?
Good player that's all.
Never rated as much as the media did.
BTW I think England had a decent side in the early 80's.
With a bowling average of around 30, and a similar batting average?
Good player that's all.
Never rated as much as the media did.
BTW I think England had a decent side in the early 80's.
giggzy said:
I'd love to know why you thought that
With old players well past their sell by date and youngsters who were mediocre at best the early 80's struggles to fit the decent label in my view. Botham's test figures were very good for an all rounders, especially when his outstanding contribution in the field is factored in as well. Few players can end a test career matching both 33 batting and 28 bowling averages. Take Sobers who you mentioned earlier. Magnificent with the bat for sure, but with the ball he was less effective, finishing up with an average of 34. Even Imran - without doubt the best of the lot - only returned a 37 with the bat.
For the sake of completeness Hadlee recorded 27 with the bat, 22 with the ball and Kapil Dev made 31 and 29. All rounders are never going to return great individual figures in both areas. Their value is the double contribution, and Botham ranks up there in the higher echelons.
Forza Viola said:I'd love to know why you thought that
Botham's test figures were very good for an all rounders, especially when his outstanding contribution in the field is factored in as well. Few players can end a test career matching both 33 batting and 28 bowling averages. Take Sobers who you mentioned earlier. Magnificent with the bat for sure, but with the ball he was less effective, finishing up with an average of 34. Even Imran - without doubt the best of the lot - only returned a 37 with the bat.
For the sake of completeness Hadlee recorded 27 with the bat, 22 with the ball and Kapil Dev made 31 and 29. All rounders are never going to return great individual figures in both areas. Their value is the double contribution, and Botham ranks up there in the higher echelons.
Kapil Dev was never top drawer. The only reason he got as many wickets as he did was due to the lack of quality in the Indian team....and amount of tests played. As for his batting. It was good for a bowler-cum-batsman.
Hadlee, was a top class swing bowler that could bat a bit. He was a world class bowler.....but never a 'great' all rounder. Sure he was a good all rounder....but so was Botham. I reckon his batting was above average.
Imran. Now he was truely a great. Not just an amazing genuine fast bowler.....but a very very good batsmen. Better than any of the other 'bowling' all rounders in that department. His average is not far off from 40(22 for his bowling), which for a player who started his career as a tear away fast bowler is quite amazing, I am sure you'll agree. To cap it all off, he was a great leader. Just how many games did he win on his own???? When you start classing people as 'great' to me it means absolute top draw. Imran fits that description. As a bowler and as an all rounder.
Botham was a very good all rounder.......... but he was never that great. You couldn't class him along with the Holdings, Lillees, Imrans, Marshalls...... in the bowling department. Nor could you say his batting was up there with the best. He was good at both things. But never really great at either.
The media hyped him up..... (btw I do think he was a much better cricketer than Kapil Dev)
As for the English team, in the early 80's.... Gower, Willis, Gatting etc etc were decent players. I reckon the England was much poorer in the 90's. It's only now things are starting to shape up. Harmison looks a class act......I reckon all teams need a bowler who can win matches. He def. has that ability.
giggzy said:
Daft comparisons (Imran aside). Botham was an all rounder, not a frontline bowler or batsman. He wasn't meant to be up there with the best. May as well have a go at Gaz for his poor goals return. I repeat the point I made earlier; find me players who have done better than Botham in both disciplines (we'll leave his huge contribution in the field out of the equation).
On that basis you'd have to lose Sobers. By that reckoning he was just a great batsman who could bowl a bit...
A team isn't as good as its better players, it is as weak as its worst. We had half a team of good players at any one time... sadly it was the lamentable players around them that made us anything but decent. We found a place for the likes of Tavare, Underwood, Hendrick, Geoff Cook, Phil Edmonds, Norman Cowans, Paul Downton, Bob Woolmer, Geoff Boycott etc etc; all way past it, or never up to it in the first place.
You think he's a 'great', I don't.
I reckon Indians hold Kapil Dev in a similar regard. But he was clearly not a 'great'.
Beefy may have been a very good all rounder. But that doesn't make him a cricketing great. Sobers, Imran, Hadlee of the ones you've mentioned are. He's not. Those players are likely to be there or there abouts in all time world XL. Botham would just about make an all time English team.(or would he????)
As for for him not being a specialist bowler or a batsmen. Well, usually all rounders are either bowling all rounders or batting ones. Hadlee, Akram(I think he underperformed with the bat, had tremendous talent) Imran et al were bowlers, who developed their batting.
Sobers and some others, were batsmen who could bowl.
For me Botham was more of a bowler who could bat.
Suppose he was more of a genuine all rounder than say Hadlee or Marshall.
Bottomline is, you think he was the a cricketing god....
I don't.
A very good cricketer, no doubt. But great? never.
I reckon Indians hold Kapil Dev in a similar regard. But he was clearly not a 'great'.
Beefy may have been a very good all rounder. But that doesn't make him a cricketing great. Sobers, Imran, Hadlee of the ones you've mentioned are. He's not. Those players are likely to be there or there abouts in all time world XL. Botham would just about make an all time English team.(or would he????)
As for for him not being a specialist bowler or a batsmen. Well, usually all rounders are either bowling all rounders or batting ones. Hadlee, Akram(I think he underperformed with the bat, had tremendous talent) Imran et al were bowlers, who developed their batting.
Sobers and some others, were batsmen who could bowl.
For me Botham was more of a bowler who could bat.
Suppose he was more of a genuine all rounder than say Hadlee or Marshall.
Bottomline is, you think he was the a cricketing god....
I don't.
A very good cricketer, no doubt. But great? never.
the aussie umpires are having a feckin' laugh at the moment
Yep - Taufel's a joke.
England attack is a bit unbalanced - too many 'containing' bowlers. Replace Saggers and Giles with Anderson and Keedy and we may start getting somewhere.
Keedy 'Century stand for the last wicket' for England !
England attack is a bit unbalanced - too many 'containing' bowlers. Replace Saggers and Giles with Anderson and Keedy and we may start getting somewhere.
Keedy 'Century stand for the last wicket' for England !
arnie sidebottom said:
just an unbelievably bad/boring bowling pitch but i see what you mean. Giles may have got a wicket but watching the NZ batsmen defend off him all day was frustrating...and don't get me started on Saggers! set my TV to come on at 10am and the first thing i heard was "...unchanged side"
rolled right back over and didn't wake up till lunch!i suppose they reckon if Harm, Fred and Hoggard can do the business at one end, they don't want someone expensive (Jimmy) at the other. right shame. miss him
anyhoo...still looks ok for England. the batting score was always gonna be high but they got some useful wickets. fingers crossed Cairns gets overwhelmed by the occasion and starts his blubbing early....
I think it was the right call leaving Anderson out. His fitness was questionable so getting in a few days play for Lancashire was a logical choice as the series was over... of course had England known how badly we were going to do against Sussex they wouldn't have bothered releasing him. He'll get just a few overs in... would have been better to play him against New Zealand.
Forza Viola said:
well we're certainly gonna have to bowl 'em out bloody quickly in the next innings
hopefully the pitch will deterioriate enough to limit them to less than 200 then hang in there for the draw.
u obviously know nothin about indian cricket do u ?giggzy said:
i know what u are gonna say now?
oh, ofcourse u rate him as gr8, u are an indian.
but i will argue ur statements on a objective basis only.
"The only reason he got as many wickets as he did was due to the lack of quality in the Indian team...."
i hope u are only talkin about pace bowling aspects only. coz the team at that time , i mean 1983-1987 was the best indian team till now excluding today's team. they won WC 1983, world series 1985
anyway he was our premier fast bowler then, and he was supposed to take most wickets, also he played most of his matches on flat indian tracks which are the worst tracks for a fast bowler in the game. thats why he probably took more matches to achieve what he did.
he doesnt classify as a gr8 swing or a tear away fast bowler.
but i would say a very accurate bowler.
to explain it more - lets analyse mcgrath, i am sure u think he is a very good bowler. best of his era according to many.
now he is not a tear away fast bowler, bowls around 130kph's
he does swing ther ball but doesnt classify as a swing bowler like say flemming of Aus was.he according to many cricket experts is an extremly accurate bowler, who bowls on a consistent off stump line.
as a bowler kapil dev , according to me treads along similar lines.
also as a batsman kapil dev had great potential and fulfilled most of it. according to almost all the ppl who played with him , he probably had in him to make the team only on a basis of a batsman , but as an allrounder u always have to make a choice between bowling and batting as to which is goin to be ur stronger aspect. he chose bowling. but still acieved gr8 things with his batting, i don think anyone can forget his 175 against ZIM with 5 wickets down for what 25 smth odd runs , which ultimately led to the WC victory. this is not a work of a ordinary batsmen, he played so many cameo's as a batsmen , if u wish i could list many of them for u.likes of imram khan according to me were more of a bowler who can bat very well, don get me wrong, imran khan was a very good supporting batsman, but kapil dev was one of those who could change the course of a match by one innings.for me he & botham were a lot better batsman than both hadlee and imran.
also u say"I reckon Indians hold Kapil Dev in a similar regard. But he was clearly not a 'great"
now i know u have very right to upheld ur opinion but i would really like to know ur reasons behind it.
in my view:kapil dev has every reason to be called great , not the greatest ever but surely one of the greats.
i have already mentioned why according to me he classifies as a great allrounder.
i don think i need to justify him as leader, his leadership was an impecable part of india's WC victory, surely the best indian captain before ganguly.
if u say imran khan was better than him or smth, i have no problem but to say he doesnt even classify as a gr8 is what irks me ?
arnie sidebottom said:
...and getting worse
put NZ back in the driving seat it seems.