Does the Profile of Midfielders We're Linked With Makes Sense?

FrankWhite

Not Frank White
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Was listening to one of the fan channels and someone hit on a point that I had been thinking about so wondered if anyone else had thoughts on the subject.
I know it's mostly paper talk but when you look at the main midfield names we've been linked with, they don't seem of a consistent profile/type. For example, we've been linked with Mount, Rabiot, Caicedo, Kudus, Rice and now De Jong again. These players all seem to have quite different profiles, which makes me wonder what our strategy and plan is for next season.

I always thought we were after an upgrade on Eriksen (a press resistant player that can control games and set it tempo but also have enough industry to press effectively; bonus points for being a great ball carrier) and a deputy for Casemiro (a primarily defensive player that can also contribute in the middle). In ETH I trust but when I look at the targets being mentioned, it just doesn't feel like there's an obvious plan. Sure the players I mentioned above can do the job but it doesn't feel like it's their main strengths or the wisest use of resource (in the case of Casemiro's deputy) considering our other needs. What do you all think?
 
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High volume passer (at least the higher volume passer than either Casemiro and Bruno) to get on the ball in the first 2/3 of the pitch. Must be able to turn with the ball and play through a press, and progress the ball up the pitch by either long range passing or ball carrying. Must be able to hold their own defensively - though doesn't have to be particularly great.

That's what we need. Eriksen was a very good ball progressor, but not press resistant and a liability in defence.

Honestly, the Chelsea midfielder that actually fit that profile was Kovacic. Unsurprisingly, Man City have taken him to replace Gundogan (though without Gundogans goal scoring instincts). Which is the same role gap we need to fill in our own midfield.
 
We need an inverted false 8.5 mid. OBviously

Nah, i think we need a good solid central mid who can pass like nobody's business. Needs to be young as we'll need him to start game in and out next to Casa Then we need a backup for casa, a holding/defensive mid.
 
Skills said:
High volume passer (at least the higher volume passer than either Casemiro and Bruno) to get on the ball in the first 2/3 of the pitch. Must be able to turn with the ball and play through a press, and progress the ball up the pitch by either long range passing or ball carrying. Must be able to hold their own defensively - though doesn't have to be particularly great.

That's what we need. Eriksen was a very good ball progressor, but not press resistant and a liability in defence.
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Agreed, Which one these targets do you think fits this mould? Probably only FDJ and I'm not convinced we're linked to him. Makes wonder if we've going to play differently next year.
 
Someone who can take the ball from the CBs and not shit his pants and either keep the ball or progress the ball through a dribble or pass - De Jong.

Someone that can run all day, press and do a little of everything - Caicedo.

Yes we also need a striker and a keeper. But the midfield is top priority. I'm sick of Fulhams and Brentfords outplaying us due to pressing and keeping the ball.
 
One that can make passes to team mates in successive games.
 
FrankWhite said:
Agreed, Which one these targets do you think fits this mould? Probably only FDJ and I'm not convinced we're linked to him. Makes wonder if we've going to play differently next year.
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It's only De Jong.

Play differently to this season? I don't see it. We happily gave up control in the middle of the pitch last season. And like you said, the profile of midfielder we're going for it doesn't seem to be a priority area to address.
 
it's so annoying that it takes us years to bring in the right midfielders

like the summer we signed Sancho, we obviously needed a DM and probably another CM but did feckall

if it's Chelsea they just go out and buy quality midfielders as soon as they need them.. Madrid too, just no fecking around with it whatsoever
 
RedDevilCanuck said:
Someone who can take the ball from the CBs and not shit his pants and either keep the ball or progress the ball through a dribble or pass - De Jong.

Someone that can run all day, press and do a little of everything - Caicedo.

Yes we also need a striker and a keeper. But the midfield is top priority. I'm sick of Fulhams and Brentfords outplaying us due to pressing and keeping the ball.
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While improving the midfield is super important, I actually think Striker and GK are still higher priorities. Improve those two positions and will control games against the teams you mentioned.
 
We don't see an obvious plan because we're not privy to EtH's thinking, and nor should we be. There's nothing wrong with that.

Go big on a first choice player, so not a deputy to Casemiro but an upgrade on Eriksen. Someone with a profile like Bellingham or De Jong if you can find one.
 
I'm sure part of the reason for the seemingly eclectic mix of names we've been linked with is that we're not actually all that interested in all of those players and some of those stories are substance-less.

The only thing we can safely say is that Mount is the first choice pick for midfield. What profile of player we target beyond that Christ knows.
 
Skills said:
High volume passer (at least the higher volume passer than either Casemiro and Bruno) to get on the ball in the first 2/3 of the pitch. Must be able to turn with the ball and play through a press, and progress the ball up the pitch by either long range passing or ball carrying. Must be able to hold their own defensively - though doesn't have to be particularly great.

That's what we need. Eriksen was a very good ball progressor, but not press resistant and a liability in defence.

Honestly, the Chelsea midfielder that actually fit that profile was Kovacic. Unsurprisingly, Man City have taken him to replace Gundogan (though without Gundogans goal scoring instincts). Which is the same role gap we need to fill in our own midfield.
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Good post. I would've been very happy with Kovacic for £30m.
 
marktan said:
Good post. I would've been very happy with Kovacic for £30m.
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I was banging on about him on here last year as the De Jong alternative. No suprise he's gone to city. Will be a good signing for them at that price too.
 
Kovacic would have been an excellent acquisition. Shame we were not in for him. It's annoying how over the years, there have been so many technical midfielders available, but we've always gone for the opposite by playing Fred and McTominay. David Silva, Bernardo Silva, Gündogan, Kroos (although that was on Moyes), Thiago Alcantara (from his Barca days) were all available cheap and we couldn't get any of them.

Now, Brozovic is available and he is an excellent passer with high volume passing and completion rate. Fantastic work rate and leadership as well. Looks like he's off to Saudi Arabia, but why aren't we even in for him at the quoted fee?



 
I think it's a bit of a myth regarding some of the midfielders that they can only play one role - all the elite coaches have the ability to scout the profile of the player and mount them to the role they see their ability to be coached to play in their system. ETH's Ajax had a midfield 3 of Lasse Schöne, Frenkie de Jong, Donny van de Beek - I don't think we are looking for the profile of players to emulate the 3 of them to be as successful as they were in CL etc. It's more down to find the right profile players who can do the job of the role accustomed to our team and tactical layout not only one specific role.
 
All the players we have been linked with in central areas suit the play style ten Hag is trying to implement. Whether the player is better from the middle to the final third (Mount, Kudus) or from the build up phase at the base of the midfield (Caicedo, Rice) is irrelevant because it seems like ten Hag wants both profiles. And it was only reported a few days ago in the telegraph about Mount being one of two midfielders that are being targeted. The other midfielder imo is for the deeper area of the pitch.

A GK will make a difference to our build up play on top of that. You don't necessarily need midfielders to control the midfield but rather the midfield can be controlled by the players behind the midfield line as has been shown many times.

With teams defending more and more from the front, they won't allow one midfielder to control tempo in the midfield unless the opponent is weak in that regard. So control has to be exerted in tandem by all the players occupying positions in the defensive third.

And the most attacking teams in the EPL are those teams who have the best build up (starting with the GK) which makes their attacking and front foot defending even more effective due to their ability to resist pressure and play in a compact high block in the opponent's half. It's why a player like Caicedo imo would be a excellent signing due to his ability to resist the press in a deep lying midfield position, which in-turn creates space for the likes of Mac Allister to excel when it comes to progressing the ball.
 
Ideally this team is still lacking three profiles of midfielder which are backup 6 (who knows), playmaker to progress (De Jong but never happening), and someone who can assist and score (Mount)
 
Adnan said:
All the players we have been linked with in central areas suit the play style ten Hag is trying to implement. Whether the player is better from the middle to the final third (Mount, Kudus) or from the build up phase at the base of the midfield (Caicedo, Rice) is irrelevant because it seems like ten Hag wants both profiles. And it was only reported a few days ago in the telegraph about Mount being one of two midfielders that are being targeted. The other midfielder imo is for the deeper area of the pitch.

A GK will make a difference to our build up play on top of that. You don't necessarily need midfielders to control the midfield but rather the midfield can be controlled by the players behind the midfield line as has been shown many times.

With teams defending more and more from the front, they won't allow one midfielder to control tempo in the midfield unless the opponent is weak in that regard. So control has to be exerted in tandem by all the players occupying positions in the defensive third.

And the most attacking teams in the EPL are those teams who have the best build up (starting with the GK) which makes their attacking and front foot defending even more effective due to their ability to resist pressure and play in a compact high block in the opponent's half. It's why a player like Caicedo imo would be a excellent signing due to his ability to resist the press in a deep lying midfield position, which in-turn creates space for the likes of Mac Allister to excel when it comes to progressing the ball.
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I think people need to get out the idea of one to one transfer targets. We have a holistic plan for the midfield with a couple of profiles needed, but a limited budget. That means certain profiles will cost more, but if we can't get them, we can re-allocate the budget easily. Simply, less expensive AM, more expensive DM and a vice versa as we move through our list of targets.
 
Lash said:
I think people need to get out the idea of one to one transfer targets. We have a holistic plan for the midfield with a couple of profiles needed, but a limited budget. That means certain profiles will cost more, but if we can't get them, we can re-allocate the budget easily. Simply, less expensive AM, more expensive DM and a vice versa as we move through our list of targets.
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Yeah we need to sign two profiles of midfielder this summer but which two is the question
 
Both Bruno and Casemiro are nailed on starters in our midfield, which leaves one spot remaining. And players like Caicedo, Rice and Mount will expect to play enough (and cost enough) that we're not going to sign two players of that ilk this summer. If we sign one of them they will be part of our first choice eleven, while any other midfield signing would fill more of a squad role.

So while the point about us signing two midfielders is absolutely correct, in real terms it still leaves us having to decide which profile of midfielder is the priority for our actual starting eleven.
 
croadyman said:
Yeah we need to sign two profiles of midfielder this summer but which two is the question
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It is kind of irrelevant who they are though, because we have to contend with a lot of variables. It would be preferable if we got our main targets, which appears to be Mount and a cheaper first phase midfielder (maybe someone like Lavia, Baelba, Vermeeren) but if Mount is a no go we could look to spend more on someone like Caicedo and then a cheaper AM in Veiga, Kudus, etc.

We seem way more flexible in the market than in previous years, which is encouraging and we have a clear set of profiles we're targeting, rather than names.
 
Lash said:
It is kind of irrelevant who they are though, because we have to contend with a lot of variables. It would be preferable if we got our main targets, which appears to be Mount and a cheaper first phase midfielder (maybe someone like Lavia, Baelba, Vermeeren) but if Mount is a no go we could look to spend more on someone like Caicedo and then a cheaper AM in Veiga, Kudus, etc.

We seem way more flexible in the market than in previous years, which is encouraging and we have a clear set of profiles we're targeting, rather than names.
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I just worry about being lightweight in the big games with those main target of midfielders
 
Long shot, but I think it was either Rabiot+Mount OR a single all-rounded midfielder. Since Rabiot move collapsed, we moved to Caicedo/Rice. I don't take De Jong links seriously.
Getting only Mount for high money doesn't solve any issues IMO so this might be off now.
 
Borys said:
Long shot, but I think it was either Rabiot+Mount OR a single all-rounded midfielder. Since Rabiot move collapsed, we moved to Caicedo/Rice. I don't take De Jong links seriously.
Getting only Mount for high money doesn't solve any issues IMO so this might be off now.
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Huge risk because still need that player to progress it from deep or someone to provide goals and assists which Caicedo/Rice don't
 
sullydnl said:
Both Bruno and Casemiro are nailed on starters in our midfield, which leaves one spot remaining. And players like Caicedo, Rice and Mount will expect to play enough (and cost enough) that we're not going to sign two players of that ilk this summer. If we sign one of them they will be part of our first choice eleven, while any other midfield signing would fill more of a squad role.

So while the point about us signing two midfielders is absolutely correct, in real terms it still leaves us having to decide which profile of midfielder is the priority for our actual starting eleven.
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I'm not sure first 11's are a thing anymore. Having 5 subs and the sheer number of games just changes things. I think your first 11 are going to play a dozen games against a different standard of opposition that you play every week and there'll be a midfield sub about 60 minutes in to get fresh legs in.
I dont think the part we value about Mount is him playing as a number 10 anyway. I think its that he's athletic, gets around the pitch and keeps the ball quite well. In that context caicedo, rabiot and a lot of other midfielders fit.
Personally while i think Bruno is a nailed on starter i wouldn't necessarily expect it to be in midfield. I could see him playing more of a bernardo silva / mata role next season depending on signings or even being used like eriksen was this season.
 
croadyman said:
Huge risk because still need that player to progress it from deep or someone to provide goals and assists which Caicedo/Rice don't
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The assumption is that they (Caicedo/Rice) can do that but they haven’t been given the chance. Otherwise their valuations make little sense.
 
caid said:
I'm not sure first 11's are a thing anymore. Having 5 subs and the sheer number of games just changes things. I think your first 11 are going to play a dozen games against a different standard of opposition that you play every week and there'll be a midfield sub about 60 minutes in to get fresh legs in.
I dont think the part we value about Mount is him playing as a number 10 anyway. I think its that he's athletic, gets around the pitch and keeps the ball quite well. In that context caicedo, rabiot and a lot of other midfielders fit.
Personally while i think Bruno is a nailed on starter i wouldn't necessarily expect it to be in midfield. I could see him playing more of a bernardo silva / mata role next season depending on signings or even being used like eriksen was this season.
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Yeah still feel we need 5/6 midfield options across the squad with a couple of different profiles
 
sullydnl said:
I'm sure part of the reason for the seemingly eclectic mix of names we've been linked with is that we're not actually all that interested in all of those players and some of those stories are substance-less.

The only thing we can safely say is that Mount is the first choice pick for midfield. What profile of player we target beyond that Christ knows.
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I would agree with this. United is easy clicks so you can link it with any available player basically
 
caid said:
I'm not sure first 11's are a thing anymore. Having 5 subs and the sheer number of games just changes things. I think your first 11 are going to play a dozen games against a different standard of opposition that you play every week and there'll be a midfield sub about 60 minutes in to get fresh legs in.
I dont think the part we value about Mount is him playing as a number 10 anyway. I think its that he's athletic, gets around the pitch and keeps the ball quite well. In that context caicedo, rabiot and a lot of other midfielders fit.
Personally while i think Bruno is a nailed on starter i wouldn't necessarily expect it to be in midfield. I could see him playing more of a bernardo silva / mata role next season depending on signings or even being used like eriksen was this season.
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Agreed. I'm not sure Bruno is going to be a full time central attacking player next season if Mount is signed. Because with Bruno and Mount as advance #8s, someone like Dalot will have to come into midfield. And unless we buy a RB, I'm not sure if Dalot would be good enough next to Casemiro.

It's logical for us to be targeting both a advanced #8 and a deeper lying midfielder to raise the level in the build up phase.
 
Honestly, outside of Frenkie, I don't think Hag has any interest in a high volume build-up passing midfielder profile. We certainly haven't had any strong links to any, and the midfielders we've signed since his arrival don't suggest much of a want: Casemiro (midfield destroyer 6 with an ambitious forward pass), Eriksen (a no.10 masquerading as a no.8, let's be honest) and Sabitzer on loan (all action attacking midfielder who does his best work up the pitch off the ball than on it).

Our main interest in midfield is now again Mount, who is a bit of a halfway house between Sabitzer and Eriksen.

Not really sure what the main blueprint is here, because to me the most ideal profile is what @Skills says in post 1. Hag must really want to play deep into this counter-attacking, transition based football.
 
Adnan said:
Agreed. I'm not sure Bruno is going to be a full time central attacking player next season if Mount is signed. Because with Bruno and Mount as advance #8s, someone like Dalot will have to come into midfield. And unless we buy a RB, I'm not sure if Dalot would be good enough next to Casemiro.

It's logical for us to be targeting both a advanced #8 and a deeper lying midfielder to raise the level in the build up phase.
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Yeah without doubt we need that
 
DWelbz19 said:
Honestly, outside of Frenkie, I don't think Hag has any interest in a high volume build-up passing midfielder profile. We certainly haven't had any strong links to any, and the midfielders we've signed since his arrival don't suggest much of a want: Casemiro (midfield destroyer 6 with an ambitious forward pass), Eriksen (a no.10 masquerading as a no.8, let's be honest) and Sabitzer on loan (all action attacking midfielder who does his best work up the pitch off the ball than on it).

Our main interest in midfield is now again Mount, who is a bit of a halfway house between Sabitzer and Eriksen.

Not really sure what the main blueprint is here, because to me the most ideal profile is what @Skills says in post 1. Hag must really want to play deep into this counter-attacking, transition based football.
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Yeah does seem like De Jong or no one,cannot understand such a lack of interest in Barella
 
FrankWhite said:
Agreed, Which one these targets do you think fits this mould? Probably only FDJ and I'm not convinced we're linked to him. Makes wonder if we've going to play differently next year.
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Those players are always picked up, Barcelona, City, Real Madrid, Bayern, they swoop those players up and we are so god damn slow to do anything.
 
DWelbz19 said:
Honestly, outside of Frenkie, I don't think Hag has any interest in a high volume build-up passing midfielder profile. We certainly haven't had any strong links to any, and the midfielders we've signed since his arrival don't suggest much of a want: Casemiro (midfield destroyer 6 with an ambitious forward pass), Eriksen (a no.10 masquerading as a no.8, let's be honest) and Sabitzer on loan (all action attacking midfielder who does his best work up the pitch off the ball than on it).

Our main interest in midfield is now again Mount, who is a bit of a halfway house between Sabitzer and Eriksen.

Not really sure what the main blueprint is here, because to me the most ideal profile is what @Skills says in post 1. Hag must really want to play deep into this counter-attacking, transition based football.
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I think we can safely assume that advanced #8 signing is Ten Hag's first choice option this summer.

It's a shape we were already playing in the second half of the season particularly and the one thing we know for a fact (because we actually made bids for him) is that we went into the summer with Mount as a priority, with all reports agreeing the intent is for him to fill that #8 spot. That's a pretty clear sign what our first choice plan is.

What's less clear is whether we want additional midfield signings, what status profile those signings would realistically be or whether we are open to switching away from that advanced #8 if Mount isn't available.

In terms of style of play, a Mount signing would seem to suggest a focus on pressing/counter-pressing. Coupled with a signing like Onana in goal and I think the stylistic shift on last season we'd quickly see is the team playing a lot higher up the pitch.

How that reflects in terms of possession is tricky to say. It certainly doesn't suggest a particularly possession-orientated side, but that's relative. Klopp's Liverpool weren't regarded as a possession side either, and had a much more functional midfield than we would, but at their peak they were still finishing second only to City in the PL in terms of average possession. I would imagine the ideal play-out of this side is something similar.
 
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croadyman said:
Huge risk because still need that player to progress it from deep or someone to provide goals and assists which Caicedo/Rice don't
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Caicedo and Rice can progress the ball from depp very well. They don't offer as much threat as Eriksen but we have 4 attacking players unleashed if we play a "safe" midfield in Casemiro +1, I wouldn't worry about goal threat.
 
Borys said:
Caicedo and Rice can progress the ball from depp very well. They don't offer as much threat as Eriksen but we have 4 attacking players unleashed if we play a "safe" midfield in Casemiro +1, I wouldn't worry about goal threat.
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Agreed. Caicedo is playing for a coach that is making him do something that is more difficult than just progressing the ball. And When you ask your players to provoke the opponent into pressing you in the defensive third, it will either end in disaster or it will work out so well that you will beat the first line of pressure and progression will come as standard.

Caicedo is also much more than just a deep lying midfielder on the ball. And will show that once he moves from Brighton imo.
 
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