Does Raymond Verheijen make a valid point?

andersj

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First I want to underline that I'm absolutely baffled and amazed by the amount of attention the bitter dutchman receives. His merits are few and he does not seem to get a lot of support from others in the football community. He is a bit of a lone wolf, slagging of everyone who does not operate in accordance with his principles and beliefs, which in the Premier League, arguably the best league system in the world, apparently consist of 95 % of the managers. Some worse than others, but no one worse than our very own David Moyes.

In my opinion it seems like a bit of a hopeless debate. The question and challenge are to find the perfect balance between the intensity and amount of training and rest. Raymond Verheijen claims he has the answer, and is arguing that David Moyes pushes his players too fare, making them too exhausted to maximize their performance when it matters - in games. He even claims that Moyes’ system makes players more injury prone.

David Moyes is probably aware of the concerns and possible side-effects, but feel that the amount of training is necessary maximize the players potential. In other words, the pros outweigh the cons. Being better trained than the opponent is more important in the long run, than having a bigger surplus and that the injuries that follows is just a necessary evil.

The golden boy of Raymond Verheijen
This might even explain the stagnation of the team recently led by the last five percent mentioned in the first paragraph, Roberto Martinez. Under the guidance of Steve Bruce Wigan looked like a team who was starting to establish themselves just below the middle. When Roberto Martinez came to Wigan, they had just finished 11th with 45 points. In Roberto Martinez first season they played entertaining football, but got 36 points and finished 16th. In the years to come they were never able to establish themselves and were always fighting for survival, despite playing good football. In his last season they were relegated, but won the FAcup impressively.

Is it possible that the slow decline of Wigan, eventually causing their relegation, were a result of his players slowly stagnating physically? My impression is that Verheijen is right on one point, though: Roberto Martinez’ team experiences fewer injuries than other teams in the Premier League (this is based on a brief look at physioroom.com).

This year Roberto Martinez is in charge of Everton. A team formerly led by David Moyes, a manager with a totally different approach. Bizarrely, Everton doing well, a team literally built by David Moyes with some small adjustments from Martinez, have led to critic against David Moyes. Instead of getting a part of the cred for his former team performance, media and pundits use it against him, claiming it proves that his results were unimpressive and maybe even below what one could expect when you see the results of Everton today.

Everton will not become in poorer shape physically overnight if Martinez trains them lighter. Instead, they might benefit. Especially in the short run, gaining surplus from less training, and less hard training, than under Moyes. They have arguably had fewer injuries this season, and the players look sharp. In addition, Martinez is lucky to be able to build on the defensive structure that David Moyes gave Everton.

Exactly one year ago several people argued that Liverpool should have gone for Michael Laudrup instead of Rogers. It might be easy for a new manager to highlight a couple of flaws, and thereby improve something that works quite well in the short run. My point is really quite simple; one should not draw a conclusion halfway through their first season.

Pre-season
That being said I am afraid that Raymond Verheijen makes a valid point on another part too. Verheijen claims that David Moyes pre-seasons are too hard, and damages the beginning of the campaign. I’ve looked at the numbers from 2003 to 2013, and David Moyes averages a lot fewer points in the beginning of each season. From 2003/2004 to 2012/2013 he averaged 1,325 point per game in the first eight games of the season, against a season average of 1,5. In the last nineteen games he averaged 1,579 points (in the nineteen first he averaged 1,421 points). If we look at a later period, from 2006/2007, this also gives a more weighted average, excluding the highs and lows in the population, the pattern becomes even stronger:

Everton got an average of 1,411 points per match in their first eight games and 1,729 in their nineteen last matches. That a twenty percent difference. As an illustration, over a season, a 1,411 average give you 54 points, while 1,729 points give you 66 points.

And again, this is a question of give and take. It is possible that the though pre-season is one of the reasons that his team perform so well from January to June, but have David Moyes found the perfect balance? I doubt it.

In Manchester United three points can be the difference between finishing first and second, and I think it might turn out crucial that he either adjust his methods slightly or find a way of using our fantastic squad depth better (giving a part of the squad a lighter program, making them more ready). Our depth might be a solution he did not have at Everton. Ferguson often used key players, for instance Carrick, less in the first half of the season. My impression is that, especially toward the end of his reign, the most important players in the first half of the season were less visible in the second half.


Merry Christmas, and let’s hope that the pattern of the statistics turn out even stronger this season!
 
Unless we actually watch a training session then none of us can really make an authoritative opinion on the matter. We can speculate, but that's all it is. To be honest, I would actually love to watch a session to see how much ball work we do. It'd be interesting to compare it to other top clubs who generally boast better movement and passing plays. And that's not just under Moyes, but under Sir Alex too.
 
One of Martinez' "small changes" at Everton is a striker who is banging in goals and hassling defenders. One position that Moyes never managed to get sorted really. I'm not taking anything away from Martinez, but you can't conclude that Everton's good position so far is down to different training methods.

Raymond speaks an awful lot about practically anything, so from time to time he's bound to be somewhat close to something that makes sense. He has his ideas and anyone who doesn't follow them is apparently an incompetent idiot, despite achieving much more than he'll ever do.

That being said, rushing Robin back a few weeks ago (and keeping him on the pitch longer than what was planned) seems like a poor move by Moyes. But what manager isn't guilty of rushing one of his stars now and then particularly when things aren't going well?
 
His criticism is far too unbalanced and polemical. It has grave logical flaws to it as well. If you apply prehistoric and fundamentally flawed methods, the results should be evenly distributed, as it were, at least to a large extent - yet this is clearly not the case: Where one player gets injured and looks out of sorts, other players remain fit and look - in fact - sharper than they did under the previous management. Players get injured, sometimes for no good reason at all. They lose form for no good reason at all too. Proving that a particular case is the result - directly - of certain training methods, is very difficult. Which is why this loudmouth would be better off stating his convictions in a more humble manner - if he did that, I actually think more people would take him seriously.
 
Ugh, more attention for that prick.
 
Moyes rushed RVP back because he was desperate, desperate to win. His gamble didn't pay off but when I read some of the criticism he gets for being too conservative I think that it is refreshing that he took this gamble. Lets get behind him and see what he can do. I personally think that he get us to second.
 
Also how much of this may be a result of RVP being a slight prima donna who feels it is beyond him to put in the miles on the training field. When I watched him last year he did appear to run out of gas in the second half of the season. I don't know the stats off the top of my head but he did go something like 10 games without a goal after Christmas.

Another observation I made was that when he played in the early part of this season his movement was much less than we are accustomed to from our CF. In fact since Welbeck has come back in the interplay between midfield and forwards has improved immensely and we are playing much better football.
 
Also how much of this may be a result of RVP being a slight prima donna who feels it is beyond him to put in the miles on the training field. When I watched him last year he did appear to run out of gas in the second half of the season. I don't know the stats off the top of my head but he did go something like 10 games without a goal after Christmas.

Another observation I made was that when he played in the early part of this season his movement was much less than we are accustomed to from our CF. In fact since Welbeck has come back in the interplay between midfield and forwards has improved immensely and we are playing much better football.

Let's not go overboard slagging off van Persie and calling him a prima donna, he's been a thorough professional since his move and the main reason why we managed to retain the trophy last season.
 
It'd be illogical to either accept or dismiss his criticism without further expert opinion, I think. I wouldn't have thought it'd be too difficult to find out the general expert opinion on Moyes' methods though. After all, other clubs have to devise a fitness strategy too, so there's a lot to compare it with.

Asking the caf's opinion on this is a bit pointless as the vast majority of the caf won't have a clue what they're talking about. A lot will either dismiss the criticism out of mindless loyalty to Moyes or jump on the criticism as it further strengthens their lack of trust in him.

Evidence and expertise is needed here.
 
Also how much of this may be a result of RVP being a slight prima donna who feels it is beyond him to put in the miles on the training field. When I watched him last year he did appear to run out of gas in the second half of the season. I don't know the stats off the top of my head but he did go something like 10 games without a goal after Christmas.

Another observation I made was that when he played in the early part of this season his movement was much less than we are accustomed to from our CF. In fact since Welbeck has come back in the interplay between midfield and forwards has improved immensely and we are playing much better football.

Ceases to amaze. What the statisticians tend to overlook is that Van Persie, throughout that drought, maintained his exceptional hold up play. It was particularly awesome against Madrid at the Bernabeu. His all round play seldom dipped, it was in fact the chances didn't quite go in. feck all to do with attitude or "prima donna" tendencies, which have been plucked out of thin air.

Your second point in regards to Welbeck has some truth to it. His movement encourages good football irrespective of his end product. It's why he easily displaced two better goalscorers in Berba and Hernandez during his first season back from loan. With that said, Van Persie has been the form out and out striker for the past 3 seasons and we would use him even better if we had midfielders who could pass the ball and a coach that focused the football a little more centrally.
 
Ceases to amaze. What the statisticians tend to overlook is that Van Persie, throughout that drought, maintained his exceptional hold up play. It was particularly awesome against Madrid at the Bernabeu. His all round play seldom dipped, it was in fact the chances didn't quite go in. feck all to do with attitude or "prima donna" tendencies, which have been plucked out of thin air.

Your second point in regards to Welbeck has some truth to it. His movement encourages good football irrespective of his end product. It's why he easily displaced two better goalscorers in Berba and Hernandez during his first season back from loan. With that said, Van Persie has been the form out and out striker for the past 3 seasons and we would use him even better if we had midfielders who could pass the ball and a coach that focused the football a little more centrally.
Oh so this is all the coach's fault? C'mon RVP is pissed because SAF left him after one year and he's been left with a coach who is renowned for having his teams in tip top physical condition. I wouldn't agree that RVP was great against RM, he missed too many chances in Madrid and was anonymous at OT in the return leg.
 
Let's not go overboard slagging off van Persie and calling him a prima donna, he's been a thorough professional since his move and the main reason why we managed to retain the trophy last season.
Let's agree to differ, I sense that this will not end well and he will angle for a way out. At the end of the day he walked out on Arsenal because of lack of trophies and if he feels that we are going the same way he will be in his bike. Understanding that the definition of prima donna means "temperamental" I think I am pretty confident that in time others will agree with my reference.
 
Let's agree to differ, I sense that this will not end well and he will angle for a way out. At the end of the day he walked out on Arsenal because of lack of trophies and if he feels that we are going the same way he will be in his bike. Understanding that the definition of prima donna means "temperamental" I think I am pretty confident that in time others will agree with my reference.

He stuck with Arsenal for 7 trophyless years, it's understandable he wanted to have a go at the league at 29 and they didn't look like winning it.

I won't blame him if he leaves United after this season if we don't make CL either. At 30 a top player of his quality needs to make career focused choices.
 
Oh so this is all the coach's fault? C'mon RVP is pissed because SAF left him after one year and he's been left with a coach who is renowned for having his teams in tip top physical condition. I wouldn't agree that RVP was great against RM, he missed too many chances in Madrid and was anonymous at OT in the return leg.

What are you talking about? My last point was a general one about the way in which both our wing-play orientated managers have used Van Persie in their set up. As brilliant as he's been, I think he'd be even better if we had midfielders who could pass the ball through the middle and manager's who focused on that hugely. It's hardly a problem.

The rest of your post is just mental. Essentially, "RVP is pissed because he's been left with a manager renowned for having his players in tip top physical condition." Eh? Nobody as of yet knows for certain if he's annoyed at anything and most of all, your claim that he may be a prima donna is just bollocks. It has no basis.

And as far as Madrid goes, I explicity said that it was his all round game that was excellent at the Bernabeu, which it was. It was all throughout his drought.
 
What are you talking about? My last point was a general one about the way in which both our wing-play orientated managers have used Van Persie in their set up. As brilliant as he's been, I think he'd be even better if we had midfielders who could pass the ball through the middle and manager's who focused on that hugely. It's hardly a problem.

The rest of your post is just mental. Essentially, "RVP is pissed because he's been left with a manager renowned for having his players in tip top physical condition." Eh? Nobody as of yet knows for certain if he's annoyed at anything and most of all, your claim that he may be a prima donna is just bollocks. It has no basis.

And as far as Madrid goes, I explicity said that it was his all round game that was excellent at the Bernabeu, which it was. It was all throughout his drought.
I stand by my opinion that RVP was not close to being excellent versus RM. if he was then we would have went through because the bulk of e chances feel to him. Have a good evening Kag.
 
I'd pay no notice of him. Most coaches don't talk shit about other people and their methods because anyone with a brain knows that there is no right or wrong way in football. I'm guessing the only reason he's having to do this is because he's a tosser that nobody is bothered about. Is he an unemployed coach or something?
 
I stand by my opinion that RVP was not close to being excellent versus RM. if he was then we would have went through because the bulk of e chances feel to him. Have a good evening Kag.

Honestly, get a copy of that game and watch his hold up play. It was excellent. And thank you, have a good one yourself.
 
One of Martinez' "small changes" at Everton is a striker who is banging in goals and hassling defenders. One position that Moyes never managed to get sorted really. I'm not taking anything away from Martinez, but you can't conclude that Everton's good position so far is down to different training methods.

That's not a criticism of Moyes though, Martinez was just very lucky.

Lets not forget his solution to the problem was to sign Aroune Kone and go into the season with a strike force not to dissimilar to what had been failing Moyes the year before and then got lucky that Lukaku became available (and probably luckier still that Mirallas was on international duty with him and spent the evening convincing him to join Everton when he looked set to go back to West Brom).

The other 'small changes' were mostly luck too, Barkley was ready to play a real role for Everton (bizarrely this seems to be a point of criticism against Moyes now) and Pellegrini didn't fancy Barry.

I think Everton would have had a really good season anyway, Martinez's real tests come when the chips are down, or rather, when he has to replace Lukaku next season.
 
Personally I find the whole 'Martinez is lucky because he got Lukaku' things only slightly more sensible then denouncing teams because they are a 'one man team'. Maybe they are, but they've got that one man and it's working. Some teams have good players and it's not working, some get them and ruin them, some just don't manage to get good players.
 
Personally I find the whole 'Martinez is lucky because he got Lukaku' things only slightly more sensible then denouncing teams because they are a 'one man team'. Maybe they are, but they've got that one man and it's working. Some teams have good players and it's not working, some get them and ruin them, some just don't manage to get good players.

I agree with this. I think the reality of the situation is that, on the whole, both Moyes and Martinez are good managers, both of which have strengths and weaknesses, yet both of which have been and are more than good enough to achieve a respectable amount of success at a club like Everton. Moyes left Everton in fantastic shape. Martinez has came in and worked on those foundations and added a confidence and hint of flair that was seldom there under Moyes. That's no criticism of Moyes, he is just inherently more pragmatic and defensive. Martinez has no track record of building a strong defence, and that will be a test in the future. The people who look to negatively view either one of them are just as bad as each other, I reckon. They both did well and Everton are benefitting immensely from what both did and are doing.
 
I like how a lot of people here didn't even read the OP and then continued on posting.

Anyway, I think that the answer is almost impossible, especially without having more data from Moyes time at us. At Everton it is interesting that almost every year they started a bit shit but then became very good later on. But yeah, without having more input on Moyes training methods it's hard to know.

I quite enjoyed your post, it was well balanced and pointed many things.

I'd pay no notice of him. Most coaches don't talk shit about other people and their methods because anyone with a brain knows that there is no right or wrong way in football. I'm guessing the only reason he's having to do this is because he's a tosser that nobody is bothered about. Is he an unemployed coach or something?

The last time I checked he was unemployed. Don' have any idea for now.

He seems a tosser though, practically criticizes everyone for everything. If he was so good at his job, then probably he wouldn' have time to criticize others.

I agree with this. I think the reality of the situation is that, on the whole, both Moyes and Martinez are good managers, both of which have strengths and weaknesses, yet both of which have been and are more than good enough to achieve a respectable amount of success at a club like Everton. Moyes left Everton in fantastic shape. Martinez has came in and worked on those foundations and added a confidence and hint of flair that was seldom there under Moyes. That's no criticism of Moyes, he is just inherently more pragmatic and defensive. Martinez has no track record of building a strong defence, and that will be a test in the future. The people who look to negatively view either one of them are just as bad as each other, I reckon. They both did well and Everton are benefitting immensely from what both did and are doing.

Spot on. Martinez is doing brilliantly, possibly better than Moyes ever did, but the real test will be when he have to regenerate Moyes's team, especially his defense. He had problems at Wigan for doing so in the past.
 
I like how a lot of people here didn't even read the OP and then continued on posting.

Anyway, I think that the answer is almost impossible, especially without having more data from Moyes time at us. At Everton it is interesting that almost every year they started a bit shit but then became very good later on. But yeah, without having more input.

Thanks mate. I agree that its difficult without more input.
 
Verheijens big topic on the coaching course he runs is fitness periodisation. Its not something new, its been around for a very long time, however he likes to portray this on the courses as something that is his idea and that it is new. On the course I attended he referred to Fergie and his coaching methods as being from the dinosaur age. He has since swapped out Fergies name for Moyes. He is employed by a South African company called "world football academy" that run various coaching courses around the world and via twitter and controversial comments he helps to make sure the numbers of aspiring coaches in various footballing countries attending his courses are high. He was a youth player who's career was cut short by injury so he studied and became a fitness coach working with various high level coaches in some very high level jobs.

The thing is that periodisation is something Utd and most other big clubs already utilise. If he is slagging off Utds fitness methods he is simply slagging off the very thing he makes money running seminars on. What he also fails to mention with respect to Utd is they have a Sports Science section which has from memory about 12 full time staff. Players are monitored continuously. They are weighed before and after every training and their food and liquid intake is also continuously monitored. Utd dont have amateurs working in these jobs, they are all highly qualified people.

He also promotes a thing he calls football braining which is about attitude and desire etc. On the course I attended he ran a couple of training sessions using local youth players. It was simply the worst most archaic session I have seen in a decade. He spent the entire session constantly barking instructions to players and it was clearly visible that by the end the players only reacted to situations when he called out. The methods he used were things we learned not to do a decade ago. After the session he boasted about how much the players had improved and learned by the end of the session. All I saw was players learning to react to his calls and no learning from the players of how, why or when to handle a certain situation on the pitch.
Interestingly he bans all use of video recording and sound recording on his courses. I still have half an hour of his seminar on my phones dictaphone app, its awful. I have attended a fair few courses run by other higher level coaches and not one of them ever made a point of banning all recordings. He made quite a point of it.
 
Interestingly he bans all use of video recording and sound recording on his courses. I still have half an hour of his seminar on my phones dictaphone app, its awful. I have attended a fair few courses run by other higher level coaches and not one of them ever made a point of banning all recordings. He made quite a point of it.

Very interesting. Anyone ever posted anything online regardless? Or transcribed it and used it against him, on twitter perhaps?
 
Very interesting. Anyone ever posted anything online regardless? Or transcribed it and used it against him, on twitter perhaps?


I am sure its because the first part of his seminar is very confrontational and he does it for a reason. He gets stuck in to anyone who is late and he is pretty ruthless with it. However by the end of it we all understood the point he was making which related to treating your players with respect in terms of always being 100% prepared and never being late etc. The point was that if you are late to a coaching course do you do the same with your players. He was telling us that if you dont demand high standards you cant expect them back. The method with which he delivered this section was brutal to say the least for the people who arrived late. I didnt like the way he got his point across but it was very effective and made me have a long hard think about other aspects of my coaching that werent directly related but I needed to address. He referred to this section as trying to get people out of their comfort zone. He wanted players out of their comfort zone. If players are in the comfort zone they arent being challenged, they arent challenging themselves and they wont improve as fast as they could. I didnt agree with his methods here but thats more a personal philiosphy than Verheijen teaching something wrong. It was his training session I found to be archaic and his attempt to portray periodisation as his own idea.

If someone posted a video or voice recording online out of context it could be used against him, However for someone so strident in his opinions on the course I thought it strange he had to stop content being open to challenge in the public arena. He spent some time talking about challenging us but did not react at all well to being challenged himself. I felt there was a fair bit of hypocrisy going on with his approach. On a personal level if I was playing for him I would be looking to move pretty quickly. Not inspiring in any way just old school abusive. Players would be playing out of fear rather than from being inspired.
 
Personally I find the whole 'Martinez is lucky because he got Lukaku' things only slightly more sensible then denouncing teams because they are a 'one man team'. Maybe they are, but they've got that one man and it's working. Some teams have good players and it's not working, some get them and ruin them, some just don't manage to get good players.


It's no real criticism of the man, but the Lukaku deal was a stroke of fortune and its the biggest difference (alongside Barkley) for why they're doing better than last year. There's nothing to suggest that with the same fortune Moyes wouldn't have performed equally well with that team.
 
He might have a point, however having shit loads of injuries is nothing new at United. The handling of RVP and Carrick in getting them to play through injury and effectively aggravate and get injured for longer was disappointing, however those were moves of a desperate manager more than anything, I remember Sir Alex patching Rooney up after an ankle injury for Bayern a few years back. Also out of interest how much fitness work will first team players do during the season? And you know what I do think we need to improve in terms of fitness, so many times we've looked lethargic over the last few years and I don't think it's any coincidence what so ever that with Jones, Welbeck, Evans, Smalling and Rafael all playing we've looked a lot better. As players get older they need to learn how to look after themselves more than anything and I think the issue may be at the moment communication more than anything, I remember SAF saying something about how Giggs trained and how he told a few weeks in advance about what games he'd play etc. We've improved in recent years in handling older players IMO, managed to patch up Rio and get a few extra years, Giggs always looks good and I think Moyes' 'training' is working for some. I don't think I've seen Rooney as consistently lean as he is now, Valencia looks better, Cleverley seems to not get gassed as quickly, Januzaj looks good and has been handled very well. It takes time for everyone to adapt and that includes Moyes and the staff.
 
The first and most obvious thing is we don't know. I know more about Real Madrid, Barcelona and some Spanish second division teams training than I know about United's. The gossip about United says: too much running, not enough ball work.

Reasons to be nervous. The team seems to lack mental spark, and lack physical intensity in the final minutes. The Moyes coaching team don't have much non-Moyes experience. Moyes isn't used to managing a team that plays twice a week, nor one that is supposed to win most games it plays.

We know that players need different things. If you train a sprinter like a middle distance runner, you don't get a better sprinter. If you train RvP like Rooney, you might well get a fitter Rooney and a more fragile RvP. I'm sure Moyes & Co know, but they still may be getting to know the players and adapting to our playing schedule.

It might even be that early on, while he was trying to establish precedents, he didn't want any players to be given a seemingly easier ride. If the pre-season was too hard, then we're lucky Rooney missed it because we'd have even fewer points now.

I guess I'm thinking of that observation from Gary Neville about Ronaldo:
"I'll never forget coming in training one day when the session was eight hard runs but, for the last two, he seemed to be taking it easy. He simply said: 'Too much water kills the plant.'"

You need to know your players well, and have absolute confidence in their respect for you, to let a player get away with that.
 
As funny as the dinosaur Moyes stuff is, no, I don't think he does. All the players that have been injured have injury - filled pasts, with the exception of Carrick. When you play him every game without rotation it is bound to happen. He does need to take a leaf out of Rodgers' book and customise some of the players training (ie. RvP). Rodgers has done it with Agger and Gerrard and we've seen major improvements.
 
As funny as the dinosaur Moyes stuff is, no, I don't think he does. All the players that have been injured have injury - filled pasts, with the exception of Carrick. When you play him every game without rotation it is bound to happen. He does need to take a leaf out of Rodgers' book and customise some of the players training (ie. RvP). Rodgers has done it with Agger and Gerrard and we've seen major improvements.
How do you know he doesn't customise training for certain players. In fact, how do you know anything about the United training schedule? How does anyone?
 
How do you know he doesn't customise training for certain players. In fact, how do you know anything about the United training schedule? How does anyone?

I don't, I'm basing it off what I've read on here and what he did at Everton. If he does, then fair enough.
 
Cheers for that Stack. For him to be virtually unchallenged in the media so far just made me wonder if he commands loads of respect (I mean, I know about RVP) because he articulates himself in such a vindictive manner, it's so unbalanced. Even though he may well have a point to our coaching methods (it's hard to tell when one doesn't have a clue).