Do we have enough aggression, physicality and outright athleticism for the league?

Fortitude

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Three games into the new campaign for all but Liverpool and ourselves and I think you’d have to have your head in the sand to not see the aggression, athleticism and intensity of the games played. Teams are playing like gangbusters; every ball is being contested; the amount of sprints and recovery runs all over the pitch are blindingly obvious. On top of that, the athleticism of the games is apparent. 100mph stuff.

Technique and technical acumen are by the by in this thread: purely, it’s about the speed and intensity of the league and the need to match that at all times to even earn the right to play. If you watched the games over the weekend, and particularly Newcastle vs City, you would have seen how flustered City were with Newcastle’s intensity and direct running - for solid portions of the game, City simply had to match fire with fire and even Kyle Walker was looking worse for wear jostling with the lively Saint Maximin. ‘Even’ Walker because he is City’s ace card for handling pace and power. Fulham, Leeds, Arsenal, Brighton to name just a few are going at teams combining all of the above. They are not the only ones, by any means, but the one constant, the running thread through the league thus far is that if you cannot hold your own in terms of physicality, stamina, aggression and appetite for the game, you’ll be swamped and smothered.

I do believe it’s only common sense to look at what’s going on around the league you are expected to compete in and the questions revolving around this subject matter should be a talking point for us. Overall we’re a lightweight team who do not have any of the prerequisites in abundance, wouldn’t you say? Our aggression is Fred (and supposedly Martinez); our physicality is McTominay; our pace is Rashford and possibly Malacia (caveat being AWB is toast and Shaw hasn’t the stamina or appetite for 90min+ of hard running); it’s a lightweight, frail side, which also cannot maintain intensity for any concerted periods of time, true or false?

Casemiro applies a large dollop of the prerequisite aggression and robustness, and next to Fred and his tireless running and aggression, we should be able to hold our own in midfield tussles, but at the moment, it’s fair to say we have the tenets of a team tilted towards more purer technique over the frighteners athleticism and the binary nature of: ‘you must match my physical attributes, or you’re toast’: Salah’s pace and acceleration; Haaland and his strength allied to speed; Son being one of the best athletes in the league, (even in lesser lights like Saint Maximin, it is abundantly clear) and so on and so forth make the point as before you deal with their actual ability as footballers, you have to cater to their physical attributes.

I really rate Sancho, but his game needs to be facilitated. At Dortmund, he had powerful runners overlapping from deep with engines that went all day - they were his speed, power and ceaseless runners that enabled him to focus on the intricate interplay he is famed for - a Hakimi bombing down the flank on the overlap has to be dealt with immediately, which draws men away. You’ll see similar at most clubs with full-backs that cannot be ignored; to the eye, full-backs are more engaging across the board at the opener to the season. If your flanking forwards aren’t quick, your full-backs need to have a lot about them to compensate and provide those powerful actions with a frequency that keeps the opposition honest, but most importantly, prevents the lesser athlete from being swamped or simply mobbed off the ball.

Continuing with the flank theme, so many teams have an outlet ball in their attack - someone who can collect a ball played into space and carry it a massive distance up the pitch. Ours is supposed to be Rashford; a couple of years ago, any one from Rashford, Martial or, to a lesser extent, Greenwood, could be expected to turn an innocuous pass over the top, 50-60 yards from goal into a very real opportunity to score, if not work the keeper. The point being that the same athleticism seen in other sides was abundant in our attack and terrified sides in isolation. Somewhere along a frontline, you need that threat - you’ll be hard-pressed to find a top side that doesn’t have at least one player who is their outlet ball:

Vinicius - RM
Mbappè - PSG
Salah & Díaz - Liverpool
Haaland - City
Sterling - Chelsea
Take your pick - Bayern

Common sense and no revelation (there isn’t a single side from our pomp that didn’t have an electrifying outlet), but how much does not having such an outlet ball affect us right now? How much easier does it make playing against, and containing us? I highlighted league/CL-challenging sides there, but it’s a thread that runs straight through the PL: which teams do not have an outlet ball? Is easier and quicker to answer than the reverse.

I hope the general gist of the thread is clear. What I want to know is whether you believe the current squad has the capability and capacity to handle the intensity and athleticism we’re seeing in these games; is it an Achilles heel at the moment that the transfer window has to address, or can we throw our hat in the ring as is and expect to be competitive enough to achieve our objectives (which I’m assuming is CL qualification)?
 
We just play with little intensity. Not sure the reason why either. To a man, our players are not much different from others. City had Foden and Silva supporting Haaland last night. No special physical gifts per se. The difference is, you would expect Foden or even Silva to be quicker and stronger on and off the ball than even Rashford, who we know is actually faster and stronger than both. We just play a low intensity game in the main, and our most high intensity player in Fred isn't particularly strong.

At the back it is certainly an issue. Maguire is not up to it, and cannot deal with the speed of PL attacks. Fofana/Saliba is what the new centre-half profile will look like.
 
Haaland has been at City for 3 games. They've dominated English football for 10 years with very little physical threat. Intensity is the word you're looking for and that's what we lack, but the players are certainly capable of it.

I'd go as far saying none of the best teams in history relied on physicality. Late 00s Barcelona, early 90s Milan etc. All technically brilliant but not especially physical teams relative to their era. Physicality is just a way to combat superior technical ability.
 
No.

Rashford & Sancho walk about like they can't be arsed out wide.

Bruno is weak as piss. Fred & McTominay work hard and can be aggressive but ultimately aren't good enough.

Dalot, AWB & Shaw are all so unbelievable passive.

Maguire is far too slow to play for a team with a high line.
 
Haaland has been at City for 3 games. They've dominated English football for 10 years with very little physical threat. Intensity is the word you're looking for and that's what we lack, but the players are certainly capable of it.

I'd go as far saying none of the best teams in history relied on physicality. Late 00s Barcelona, early 90s Milan etc. All technically brilliant but not especially physical teams relative to their era. Physicality is just a way to combat superior technical ability.

Correct.

Look at Bernardo Silva for City yesterday. He can carry the ball, doesn't get bullied and always wants it.

Sancho in the same position for us just goes hiding.
 
Defensively everything is too passive and reactive. On the ball passing and movement is just too slow with too many touches.

I think it's a real lack of aggression and intensity in every aspect of the play. Speed of thought and movement seems to be non existent. A lot of these players seem to lack fight, drive and motivation. They seem to just accept mistakes, failure and defeat too easily.

There's no other way to change but to clear the majority of them out and start from scratch.
 
Football has changed over the years. With teams pressing high up the pitch you need a certain level physical output from the entire 11 whereas and moreover it has to be well trained. Even when we press with intensity it's usually uncoordinated.

And then of course when you keep giving rhe ball away and getting hit after the turnover it tires the team even more.

Finally we have been used to playing passive football over the years under Jose and Ole and hence it'll need a big change to make us a team that can compete with high octane modern football
 
I think in the forward line and in tbe full back positions we lack some of this.

Sancho and the current Rashford don't play with the same type of intensity as the likes of Sterling, Mane, Salah and Diaz. Malacia's got some of it, but Dalot is also quite lacklusture. I'd love a right sided Robertson in this team.
 
I don’t think we do at this moment in time. I think we’ve shot ourselves in the foot by having so many similar profiles at once. Eriksen and Fernandes are more or less the same player; Sancho is basically a slightly better wide outlet but he’s equally lax on the running in behind and being an intense sprinter. Rashford plays like a 37 year old veteran and Cristiano is a 37 year old veteran.

Malacia looks like he has a bit. Casemiro obviously too. Here’s hoping the two Eredivisie wingers help us stretch teams and get in behind. Myself and @Skills were briefly discussing how simple having pace in attack is and how it adds so much to your side offensively.
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The City comparison is an interesting one made above, because I also think they now have a lot of the same profiles, the difference is their players are just better (and hungrier?) than ours. They lost Sterling (in behind runner) and Jesus (nimble presser) to keep Grealish, Mahrez, Bernardo, and Foden as their wide attackers. All are very similar players. Like I say, their quality is obviously much better and they’re lucky they also have Haaland who is an absolute freak over short distances for his size, but profile wise they look a bit one dimensional too.
 
No and it genuinely worries me. If we don't correct our transfer strategy and bring in lots of hungry, energetic players over the next couple of windows I can see us ending up where Everton are now with relegation looking a real possibility.
 
CR7: 14 years ago, he set the field alight with his blistering pace.

Now you have the young ones like Rashford, Martial, Sancho blitzing and crushing the defence
 
Our players weren't coached to play with athleticism, aggression or physicality. These ere traits from another world for many of them. That's the main reason we are getting dominated in most games and we are losing one vs ones even against the likes of Brighton or Brentford.

That's mainly the fault of our ex-managers, we have to thank them for that.
Hopefully ETH will have enough time and will be able to align us with how the current, modern football is being played.
 
He might have missed one chance against Newcastle, but just focus on Haaland's face whenever he is sprinting for the ball. Snarling like a mad man, possessed, with no regard for his own safety, basically, intensity and passion. People make fun of this term like it's meant to be some outdated concept.

They ought to take a step back.
 
Intensity is the word. For all that people rightly criticize the midfield, it has to be recognized how little the attackers do to help them out, constantly let full backs walk past them or CB's press out with no resistance, leaving the midfield with runners coming from all direction and no chance. I am hoping Casemiro will refuse to accept this. Ronaldo of course is a major problem here, but Sancho and Rashford are just as bad in their own way, and it is not as if they are offering outstanding production to balance this problem. Speaks volumes that we are hoping Anthony Martial, of all people, is going to be the worker of the trio.
 
First half has probably shocked every one of us - didn’t think we were capable of that!

Tbf you aren't wrong.

No team can press that hard for 90 minutes but the fitter teams can do it for good chunks of the game. We have been excellent but the last 20 minutes showed that the fitness work Ten Hag and his staff are doing still have a way to go. We were a mile behind for 2 years.

I think this is going to be the most "simple" win for Ten Hag this season, we will improve drastically just with proper fitness training.
 
Question and not sure if it is related

Are the running stats being bandied about absolute nonsense ? We had 30pc possession this week and the inverse last week, surely youd expect that we outrun the opposition ? If it was 5050 might be a better metric ?

When I was growing up, the goal of keeping the ball and moving the ball was to make the opponent run so they got tired. We used to say 'make the ball do the work'. Does it seem stupid that running bigger distances than the opponent should be of your performances goals?

Again, I understand the spirit of the metric, doesn't stop this being stupid usage of it surely ?
 
What I think happened against Brighton and Brentford is that the players assumed all they had to do was to punch the timecard and the result would take care of itself. It didn't quite work out that way and the reaction tonight against the better side, at least on paper, was exceptional.

But we can't expect this kind of high-octane performance against the other 19 clubs on a regular basis. We do need more steel in the squad but I actually think we need more quality. Frenkie de Jong would be a massive upgrade on Fred, who shows enough aggression but whose quality is lacking at times. And the impact of the upgrade of Casemiro for McTominay is hard to overstate.
 
Question and not sure if it is related

Are the running stats being bandied about absolute nonsense ? We had 30pc possession this week and the inverse last week, surely youd expect that we outrun the opposition ? If it was 5050 might be a better metric ?

When I was growing up, the goal of keeping the ball and moving the ball was to make the opponent run so they got tired. We used to say 'make the ball do the work'. Does it seem stupid that running bigger distances than the opponent should be of your performances goals?

Again, I understand the spirit of the metric, doesn't stop this being stupid usage of it surely ?

Yes. Well maybe not absolute nonsense but certainly not something to take at face value, for exactly the reason you suggest. If you were trying to seriously measure the amount of effort the team were putting in you'd have to measure the intensity of the running as well and relate it to possession.

Which I assume is exactly what we actually do. Making the team run the 13km difference between ourselves and Brentford seemed like a way of emphasising the importance of effort using a symbolic number rather than us literally thinking we should be outrunning teams even when we have 60-70% possession.
 
In ETH's new signings plus a couple of the old ones, yes. It seems he's going out of his way to actually find that kind of player who's fit, aggressive, and would let the opposition know they're in for a hard game.
 
The squad and the players definitely have it in them, we've seen it plenty of times where we've demolished teams on the break under Ole in those box to box encounters.

The issue is conditioning and mentality imo, which is down to ETH and luck imo (injuries etc).

We don't need Rashford making 23 sprints like tonight every game but we need him doing this kind of work regularly. The same goes for everyone else.

Off and on the ball. You don't just sprint and battle for the 1st, 2nd or third ball, off the ball, you need to do it when your teammates have the ball to give them easy options (short, medium, one-two, behind etc).
 
Watching today's game, I saw players hacked down left, right and center. I don't think we have enough players period to play that way every game for a season.
Unless everyone was diving? It didn't look like that.
 
United shouldn't run more than the likes of Brentford, just to win against them.
 
United shouldn't run more than the likes of Brentford, just to win against them.
This./

Liverpool [shite last night] & Citeh don’t simply run more than their opponents. If you have the ball 70% of the time the opposition are generally running round chasing so they run more, we don’t punish the opposition enough for their efforts we rewarded Brentford for it on one of the hottest afternoons of the year.
 
This./

Liverpool [shite last night] & Citeh don’t simply run more than their opponents. If you have the ball 70% of the time the opposition are generally running round chasing so they run more, we don’t punish the opposition enough for their efforts we rewarded Brentford for it on one of the hottest afternoons of the year.

Agreed. We only need to outrun opponent who has equal or more quality than us. "Run more" should be there to compensate the gap in quality. Our problem is always about "keeping the ball" and "in control of the game".
And "in control" doesn't equate "run more". We're still so careless with the ball. Misplaced easy passes, Gk keep hoofing it, players dilly dally with the ball, etc.
 
Not even close to having enough physicality.

All of our forward lineup today including Bruno who's the worst offender just lacks the physicality needed to compete at the highest level.
 
Why is that, from time to time, I see opponent goalkeepers randomly booting the ball up front but end up in the feet of their forwards?

When our keeper or back 4 does the same, it always end up in opponent's back 4. Our forwards have no ability to win 50/50 or chase for loose balls.
 
Not even close to having enough physicality.

All of our forward lineup today including Bruno who's the worst offender just lacks the physicality needed to compete at the highest level.
Indeed. No surprise Southampton are winning more 50/50s. We have no pace and power up top the front 3 have barely had a sniff.
 
This isn abiut physicality.
We have won mist of the second balls. This is about quality.
 
We're getting bullied today. The front 4 are pathetic physicality wise.
 
Why is that, from time to time, I see opponent goalkeepers randomly booting the ball up front but end up in the feet of their forwards?

When our keeper or back 4 does the same, it always end up in opponent's back 4. Our forwards have no ability to win 50/50 or chase for loose balls.

Front players competing for the first high ball with physicality and then players following up to pounce on the 2nd ball wherever it lands
 
I'm not sure to be honest. I think we have speed, but whether Sancho, Rashford and Elanga are going to compete in the challenge, win second balls etc - probably not. I would say there's enough competitiveness across the back line and midfield.

But I would say the biggest problem is when you knock it into these boys, Sancho aside it feels like you are going to lose it more often than not and he's always on his own. The ball just bounces off them, or they dribble down a blind alley, or take a poor decision and that goes for Bruno too.

I would say top teams can keep the ball in the final third much better. It seems more like technique to me than physicality. You can't really afford 3 or 4 where you toss a coin as to whether they treat the ball with care.
 
We're playing Rashford as a CF and Elanga as a RW. As such I'm not sure why you'd focus in on physicality specifically rather than the general lack of quality in those positions.
 
I don't think ten Hag is aware of the importance of the physicality or athleticism yet; otherwise he wouldn't ship out his most athletic defender in Eric Bailly without hesitation.

Eriksen & Bruno starting in midfield is a nightmare for us in terms of physicality, athletisicm and agression too. Eriksen is a good signing as a squad player but he shouldn't start anymore as he's still playing like he has fears of having another heart attack. 4-3-3 is the way to go and we should get a top CM to play with Casemiro & Fred.
 
It's pointless even playing to ball to Rashford unless it's on the floor in wide open space. You know it's coming straight back otherwise.
 
This isn abiut physicality.
We have won mist of the second balls. This is about quality.

Nonsense, it's a physical league, unless you've got world class players who can open up teams, the physicality or lack of makes it so hard to score against teams who defend deep.

It's not about winning second balls, it's about the amount of times a move breaks down because front players are weak.