Do ex-defenders make the worst managers?

NoWinNoFee

kietotheworld mk2
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Playing the worst football and too defensive minded?

I'm looking at some ex-defenders now in management Moyes/McLeish/Big Sam, all their teams have had criticism at some stage of being 'dull' 'parking the bus' 'anti-football' and 'long ball' teams.

I can't really think of one successful ex-defender now in management who's teams have gone on to win silverware playing exciting football and is regarded as a 'legend' in management, the best managers in the game (past and present) all seem to be ex-midfielder/strikers.

Coincidence or do you think something is in this?
 
Pellegrini is the only one I can think of, though he's obviously not at the legendary manager level...

I'm sure there has to be a few. Bielsa maybe? Depends on how many games you're talking about, he had a short playing career. Benítez too.
 
Frank De Boer was a defender and has been successful as Ajax manager playing attacking football.
 
In theory, you'd think it was the opposite. That defenders would have learned more about tactics and organisation in their position, while forwards would have played more by instinct (not that there is no tactics and organisation involved in that, it's just I imagine the top attackers are encouraged to use their imagination far more than defenders.). Most pundits seem to be defenders (Neville and Carragher being the best examples).

Either way, I couldn't help but imagine the tactics that modern day defenders would use if they were managers. I can just imagine David Luiz, Pepe or Marcelo drilling their teams on the finer points of marking at set pieces. :lol:
 
Defensive midfielders and attack-minded defenders would appear the best managers these days; though it's generalising hugely.
  • Nice balance of skills; attacking and defensive.
  • Understanding of position and a craft making up for lack of pace.
Attack-minded defenders; Pochettino, Pellegrini, Koeman, De Boer, Mihajlovic, Klopp, Tuchel.

Defensive midfielders; Guardiola, Mourinho, Ancelotti, Wenger, Van Gaal.
 
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I think you have to assess what kind of player they were rather than what position they played in. Hence why, despite being defenders, Ronald Koeman and Frank de Boer have produced attacking football that was clearly influenced by their role at the hub of much of their teams' creative play. And it's more nuanced than that because some players maybe didn't have the technical gifts so had to compensate in other ways. Others perhaps lacked physical qualities so had to learn how to adapt their game accordingly, which is why Tim Vickery has a theory around how the best managers were slow players. So while I wouldn't say there's an advantage in the position you played, it's more about how you had to think as a player in that role.
 
I would have guessed defensive-minded players make the best managers. You build your squad on good defence, knowing how the defensive game works in terms of organisation and leadership would help I presume. Although in the end I don't think it matters much when you can still learn the other side of the game after retiring as a player.
 
luckyspurs said:
Defensive midfielders and attack-minded defenders would appear the best managers these days; though it's generalising hugely.
  • Nice balance of skills; attacking and defensive.
  • Understanding of position and a craft making up for lack of pace.
Attack-minded defenders; Pochettino, Pellegrini, Koeman, De Boer, Mihajlovic, Klopp, Tuchel.

Defensive midfielders; Guardiola, Mourinho, Ancelotti, Wenger, Van Gaal.
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Yes. The central midfield area is the nerve centre of the park. If you're good there, you're likely to understand different phases of the game.
 
Uli Stielike is doing a good job with Korea... 0 goals shipped in the Asian Cup so far, but it's probably more the quality of the opposition if anything. However, the Korean defence was still leaking goals to weak teams prior to the tournament so I definitely think he's tightened up the defence for sure.
 
NoWinNoFee said:
The best managers in the game (past and present) all seem to be ex-midfielder/strikers.
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Err poor defenders are getting some unwarranted neg cred. There have been loads of great defender to manager transitions in football (past and present).

Ernst Happel (won the European twice with Feyenoord and Brugge, finished 2nd in the 1978 World Cup).
Franz Beckenbauer (won the World Cup with West Germany, Ligue 1 with Marseille, Bundesliga and UEFA Cup with Bayern).
Helenio Herrera (One of the greatest tacticians of all time, defined a whole era of football, twice European Cup winner).
Marcelo Lippi (AFAIK Apart from Vicente Del Bosque, he is the only man to win both the World Cup and the European Cup as a manager).
Giovanni Trapattoni (One of the all time greats, won 7 Serie A titles, a European Cup among others).
Bill Shankly (Wing back. Laid the foundations for the Scouser's European success).
Bob Paisley (Another wing back. Liverpool's winnigiest manager).
Joe Fagan (One more wing back. Won a European Cup and a league title).
Vittorio Pozzo (A name lost in time and the godfather of football tactics. Won 2 World Cups and the Olympics Gold).
Jock Stein (Fergie's mentor and one of the greatest ever British managers. Won the European Cup and 10 Scottish league titles).
Luiz Felipe Scolari (Won the World Cup with great attacking football).
Manuel Pellegrini (Current Premier League title holder).
Laurent Blanc (2 Ligue 1 titles won, 2 French domestic Cups).
Rafael Benitez (Won the European Cup and had lots of success with Valencia in the early 2000s).
Marcelo Bielsa (Didn't win much but is considered one of the greatest modern day tacticians).

Among others. Too much sweeping generalization in OP to be honest.
 
luckyspurs said:
Defensive midfielders and attack-minded defenders would appear the best managers these days; though it's generalising hugely.
  • Nice balance of skills; attacking and defensive.
  • Understanding of position and a craft making up for lack of pace.
Attack-minded defenders; Pochettino, Pellegrini, Koeman, De Boer, Mihajlovic, Klopp, Tuchel.

Defensive midfielders; Guardiola, Mourinho, Ancelotti, Wenger, Van Gaal.
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Diego Simeone
 
Invictus said:
Err poor defenders are getting some unwarranted neg cred. There have been loads of great defender to manager transitions in football (past and present).

Ernst Happel (won the European twice with Feyenoord and Brugge, finished 2nd in the 1978 World Cup).
Franz Beckenbauer (won the World Cup with West Germany, Ligue 1 with Marseille, Bundesliga and UEFA Cup with Bayern).
Helenio Herrera (One of the greatest tacticians of all time, defined a whole era of football, twice European Cup winner).
Marcelo Lippi (AFAIK Apart from Vicente Del Bosque, he is the only man to win both the World Cup and the European Cup as a manager).
Giovanni Trapattoni (One of the all time greats, won 7 Serie A titles, a European Cup among others).
Bill Shankly (Wing back. Laid the foundations for the Scouser's European success).
Bob Paisley (Another wing back. Liverpool's winnigiest manager).
Joe Fagan (One more wing back. Won a European Cup and a league title).
Vittorio Pozzo (A name lost in time and the godfather of football tactics. Won 2 World Cups and the Olympics Gold).
Jock Stein (Fergie's mentor and one of the greatest ever British managers. Won the European Cup and 10 Scottish league titles).
Luiz Felipe Scolari (Won the World Cup with great attacking football).
Manuel Pellegrini (Current Premier League title holder).
Laurent Blanc (2 Ligue 1 titles won, 2 French domestic Cups).
Rafael Benitez (Won the European Cup and had lots of success with Valencia in the early 2000s).
Marcelo Bielsa (Didn't win much but is considered one of the greatest modern day tacticians).

Among others. Too much sweeping generalization in OP to be honest.
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Thanks Google.
 
Well here's ESPN's list of the top 20 managers in the world. Obviously it's not perfect and we will all disagree with some names there and some names not there. But I'll put in their playing positions and see what we get.

Guardiola - DM
Mourinho - CM
Simeone - DM
Klopp - Played for Mainz as a striker for some years before becoming a defender.
Van Gaal - CM
Pellegrini - CB
Rodgers - N/A (No professional appearances but supposedly a defender)
Conte - CM
Rudi Garcia - DM
Martinez - DM
Ancelotti - CM
Emery - CM/DM
Low - AM
Bielsa - Defender
De Boer - CB
Del Bosque - DM
Prandelli - CM
Pochettino - CB
Wenger - CM
Benitez - Hard to find. Midfielder/Defender

So from this list there doesn't appear to be any wide players, be that full-back or winger, no goalkeepers and most surprisingly no strikers.

Using some notable managers not on the list -

Mancini - AM/ST
Ferguson - ST
Scolari - Defender
Villas-Boas - Never played
Ranieiri - Defender
Heynckes - ST
Moyes - CB
Allegri - CM
Nuno - GK
Mazzarri - CM
Fournier - Defender
Koeman - CB/CM
Luis Enrique - Defender

Still struggling to find any wingers.
 
Doesn't matter if they were a defender or a striker...just as long as any new manager appointed is not some dour ginger long ball spoofer than most teams should be okay
 
BobbyManc said:
Still struggling to find any wingers.
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In the Premier League, there's Warnock and Alan Irvine... Which probably sums things up.

A traditional winger is a relatively-modern invention, though. Inside-forwards and winger-less formations were fairly common in the 50s to the 70s. The most successful Brazil, Italy and Germany sides during the 70s and 80s didn't use pure wingers much. So it's perhaps not surprising there aren't many managers who were once wingers (yet).
 
Invictus said:
Err poor defenders are getting some unwarranted neg cred. There have been loads of great defender to manager transitions in football (past and present).

Ernst Happel (won the European twice with Feyenoord and Brugge, finished 2nd in the 1978 World Cup).
Franz Beckenbauer (won the World Cup with West Germany, Ligue 1 with Marseille, Bundesliga and UEFA Cup with Bayern).
Helenio Herrera (One of the greatest tacticians of all time, defined a whole era of football, twice European Cup winner).
Marcelo Lippi (AFAIK Apart from Vicente Del Bosque, he is the only man to win both the World Cup and the European Cup as a manager).
Giovanni Trapattoni (One of the all time greats, won 7 Serie A titles, a European Cup among others).
Bill Shankly (Wing back. Laid the foundations for the Scouser's European success).
Bob Paisley (Another wing back. Liverpool's winnigiest manager).
Joe Fagan (One more wing back. Won a European Cup and a league title).
Vittorio Pozzo (A name lost in time and the godfather of football tactics. Won 2 World Cups and the Olympics Gold).
Jock Stein (Fergie's mentor and one of the greatest ever British managers. Won the European Cup and 10 Scottish league titles).
Luiz Felipe Scolari (Won the World Cup with great attacking football).
Manuel Pellegrini (Current Premier League title holder).
Laurent Blanc (2 Ligue 1 titles won, 2 French domestic Cups).
Rafael Benitez (Won the European Cup and had lots of success with Valencia in the early 2000s).
Marcelo Bielsa (Didn't win much but is considered one of the greatest modern day tacticians).

Among others. Too much sweeping generalization in OP to be honest.
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Don't tell that to any brazilian :lol:
 
Sly said:
Don't tell that to any brazilian :lol:
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:D Had a sneaking suspicion someone would bring that up and to be honest, it certainly is a valid criticism from their perspective given the history of the Seleção. But as an outsider, I think a lot of Brazilian football enthusiasts have unrealistic expectations of the national team and compare them the 1982 or 1970 teams, which does seem a bit harsh. I thought Scolari handled the tournament masterfully after the injury to Emerson coupled with a mediocre central defense, necessitating a more rigid formation. Despite that 2002 team was for me, probably the best counter-attacking national team of the past odd decade, and statistically scoring 18 goals in the tournament (highest total for a team in any World Cup since 1970 bar the 2014 German national team which also had 18) with only the trio up top and Carlos, Cafu at wingback, Lucio at a stretch offering genuine world class quality.
 
Invictus said:
:D Had a sneaking suspicion someone would bring that up and to be honest, it certainly is a valid criticism from their perspective given the history of the Seleção. But as an outsider, I think a lot of Brazilian football enthusiasts have unrealistic expectations of the national team and compare them the 1982 or 1970 teams, which does seem a bit harsh. I thought Scolari handled the tournament masterfully after the injury to Emerson coupled with a mediocre central defense, necessitating a more rigid formation. Despite that 2002 team was for me, probably the best counter-attacking national team of the past odd decade, and statistically scoring 18 goals in the tournament (highest total for a team in any World Cup since 1970 bar the 2014 German national team which also had 18) with only the trio up top and Carlos, Cafu at wingback, Lucio at a stretch offering genuine world class quality.
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Nailed it. I know alot of brazilians here in Portugal and from my trips to Brazil and they all rank Scolari's WC campaign as a negative football win. Of course you are right in what concerns the statistics and the adversities he had when he built and managed that team but the wc2002 will always have that label (along with 1994)
 
didn't sir matt get pushed to halfback or fullback from and inside right?
 
Surely goalkeepers make the worst managers?

I struggle to think of many who have done anything significant apart from Zoff, and he only won the UEFA Cup, didn't he?
 
Theoretically a box to box midfielder understands more phases of play but playing in midfield is not necessarily going to make you the best ever footballing coach - See Roy Keane.

Exposure to ideas, people etc whole myriad of things which can affect a coaches philosophy on the game. Zinedine Zidane is probably less likely to play long ball as a coach, agreed but there might be some ugly old number 9 who wants his team to play physical and out muscle the opposition. . For example Mark Hughes.

It all comes down to that persons mentality. Some defenders love thr beautiful game but are shit at playing so resort to hoof ball etc purely down to a lack of talent.. yet talk to them and they got a great mind for the game.

Pogue is a goalkeeper and he speaks alot of sense about the game. It would be interesting to see what positions every one plays on the caf.. I bet it'll prove that there is no correlation between position and ability to read the game in a coaching sense.
 
I always thought ex-defenders make the best managers, at least in terms of results. They spend so much of their careers behind the ball, reading the play and the movements of the other players. Most of the other 22 players are in your vantage point. I would think it gives them a great perspective on tactical setups. Granted it probably also makes them tend to be conservative in their approach.

The more offensive-minded a player is, the more he needs to rely on instinct and creativity, traits which are harder to coach. Also, spending your time in the forward areas ahead of most of the opposition players doesn't give you that same perspective of play. As a striker, you only see 3 or 4 players ahead of you most of the time.
 
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