Decades Draft Tournament : EDogen vs Brwned

[Moby]

The aim of this poll is to decide which team will win based on all the players being at their respective peaks. The player profiles have been linked in both tactics so please go through them to read a brief description about all the players involved in the game!

EDogen's tactics

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Tactics Edogen (4-2-3-1)​

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·Gilmar in goal, greatest brazilian keeper of all time.​

·Central defenders in Maldini and Costacurta who know each other well since their time in AC Milan. They will work great together.​

·The full backs in my team are Silvio Marzolini who was one of the best South American left-backs of all-time and Lillian Thuram who is one of the greatest ever right backs.​

·Tardelli and Falcao will form my central midfield. Tardelli with his stamina and work rate together with Falcao with his fantastic intelligence and vision. A complete partnership.​

·My attacking midfielder/playmaker will be Omar Sivori “The Maradona of the sixties”​

·On the wings I have Rivelino and Juan Mata who will give my team some needed width.​

·To finish my team off, no better man than Ronaldo. The perfect striker.​

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Defence​

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In Gilmar I have a great keeper that the defenders will feel safe with having behind them. Maldini and Costacurta as mentioned know each other extremely well since their time in AC Milan and they are up there with the greatest central pairings in this draft. They will handle Hugo Sánchez well. Thuram and Marzolini are both among the best defensive full backs the world has seen and they match up well against Dzajic and Figo. You could think that my defence was built to handle his attack.​

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In front of the defence I have two midfielders that are more than happy to help out defensively. In Tardelli I have a real battler who was well known for his battling qualities, primarily his stamina and mentality as well as his ruthless tackling. Tardelli will have more defensive duty than his partner in midfield. Falcao will work as a box-to-box midfielder, a position he is an all time great in. He will not be afraid of helping out in the midfield battle either.​

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Attack​

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My play will start from the back with my defenders being capable with the ball at their feet building up possession. Falcao with his vision and fantastic passing will be my midfield general who will build my play. He will find Rivelino, Sivori and Mata in more advanced positions.​

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Then I have my front four, Rivelino – Sivori – Mata with Ronaldo in front of them. They create chances and score goals against every team they would be up against. They will be fluid in their movement, they all have very good movement and will interchange positions in attack. There will be goals from this attack with their combinations. I also have Falcao and Rivelino whos long-range shot were in world-class as a real threat.​

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Finally I believe in my team since:​

·My back four is well built to deal with his attacking players. My full backs taking care of Figo and Dzajic.​

·My midfield two have clear roles and will work well together keeping possession and also being able to battle, a nice mix in there.​

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·The movement and trickery among my front four will create chances and will lead to goals.​

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TEAM EDogen​

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Starting formation​

Spoiler

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TEAM Brwned​

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Brwned's tactics

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For detailed player profiles click on formation graphic above.​

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Overview​

• Dzajic and Figo will relish the opportunity to play 1v1 v their fullbacks all game long, with the possibility of being left completely on their own for the counter-attack if the fullbacks are forced to push forward and provide width. Thuram is unquestionably one of the most defensively robust fullbacks the game will ever see but up against Dzajic - the man Beckenbauer claimed was even better than Best in his Ballon d’Or winning season - he’ll have his work cut out. Marzolini will have no hope against Figo all on his own.
• As Edwards is going on one of his customary surging drives forward Toure will happily sit deep and send inch-perfect long passes out to either winger - or vice-versa depending on the situation - as the team once again isolates the fullback and waits for the two wing wizards to conjure up a bit of magic and pick out Hugo Sánchez or Charlton with excellent passing and pin-point crossing.
• Falcão and Tardelli will have their hands full against Toure and Edwards. Neither can be left alone to surge forward and giving them space to dictate the game from deep is asking for trouble. That leaves Bobby Charlton all alone against…Busquets? Manchester United and England all-time top scorer, Ballon d’Or winner, World Cup and Golden Ball winner …up against Sergio Busquets. Charlton will drag him all over the pitch, completely out of his comfort zone and with a few swivels of the hips and a burst of pace he’ll be beating Busquets over and over again.
• Hugo Sánchez has nightmares of that terrible 5-0 loss in the European Cup against Milan but he’s delighted to see that Baresi is no longer there to orchestrate things at the back. With much superior providers from out wide and an upgrade on his magnificent strike partnerButragueño in behind him he will undoubtedly cause Maldini and co. much more trouble this time round. As good as that centre back partnership is, does anyone really think they’ll stop him from latching onto one of the many crosses he’ll be provided width from either wing or pouncing to tap-in a rebound from a Charlton long ranger which is inevitably too hot to handle for Gilmar?

• Camacho is man-marking Sivori all game long and doing nothing else. His fellow countryman Kempes is in no doubt of his suitability for the role: “He was like a hunting dog; wherever you went on the pitch, he went. You knew that if you looked over your shoulder, he'd be there waiting for you. He didn't talk either, he just breathed in a very strange way - "Fsst, fsst, fsst, fsst"! A real nightmare."​
• Ronaldo will be left up against two pacey, intelligent, supremely gifted defenders and his former team-mate Bergomi will be keeping a close eye on him as Rio sweeps up behind. No-one can take Ronaldo at his peak out of the game completely, but this duo is one of the few that could reasonably attempt it.​
• Rivelino and Falcão will be directly facing up to the powerful, dominant midfield duo of Edwards and Toure with Charlton keeping a close eye on Tardelli. Busquets will be left as the free man to make something happen in midfield and unfortunately he’s out of his depth here in a midfield distinctly unsuited to playing tiki-taka football - the only style he has succeeded in.​
• Marzolini and Thuram will be tasked with providing the bulk of the team’s width and neither have the skill or mentality to play the role effectively. His team will either be left with a congested midfield area and no out-ball or two hopelessly uncomfortable wingbacks.​

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[Ish]

Fat Ronaldo Edogen?

 

[Moby]

Yep.

 

[Ish]

Thanks mate. This is a toughie. Probably going to be the closest tie of the round.

 

[Cutch]

I'll go for Brwned in this. EDogen has a great side but a serious lack of width

 

[EDogen]

Not at home right now so this will be a short reply on the phone.

Funny that Brwned saying Busquets out of place here when he has Toure in his team. Busquets was the one who took the place from Yaya, playing in that deep position.

And Tardelli mainly will help out on Charlton while Toure and Edwards are trying to keep track of Falcao and Rivelino.

Also I see Ronaldo (brazilian), Sivori and Rivelino causing more problems than Figo, Dzajic and Sanchez.

 

[EDogen]

I'll go for Brwned in this. EDogen has a great side but a serious lack of width

That world be the main point against me I understand. But I have Rivelino who also played starting out from the left and with the movement betweeen Ronaldo, Sivori and Rivelino they will ens up finding space out wide at times. Rivelino mostly, freeing up space for Sivori to drop deep or for Falcao to get into.

 

[Cutch]

That world be the main point against me I understand. But I have Rivelino who also played starting out from the left and with the movement betweeen Ronaldo, Sivori and Rivelino they will ens up finding space out wide at times. Rivelino mostly, freeing up space for Sivori to drop deep or for Falcao to get into.

For the diamond to work as far as I'm concerned you need a Cafu/Zanetti/Alba type of fullback, playin as wingbacks essentially. Thuram and Marzolini can't be expected to provide this quality of attacking service. They're not that type of player.

 

[Moby]

Interesting match up so far.

 

[Brwned]

Not at home right now so this will be a short reply on the phone.

Funny that Brwned saying Busquets out of place here when he has Toure in his team. Busquets was the one who took the place from Yaya, playing in that deep position.

And Tardelli mainly will help out on Charlton while Toure and Edwards are trying to keep track of Falcao and Rivelino.

Also I see Ronaldo (brazilian), Sivori and Rivelino causing more problems than Figo, Dzajic and Sanchez.

Busquets and Toure are both out of place here, that's clear as day in my view. The difference here is Busquets is up against Charlton while Toure (and Edwards) are up against Sivori. You can use that Maradona of the 60s line all you want but I doubt you can really tell us how capable he is of troubling Toure never mind Edwards. Added to that Busquets has only ever succeeded in a very specific system with complementary players, and that's simply not the case here. He's playing a different role in a very different setup in a team that's just not suited to playing that kind of football. Toure on the other hand has succeeded in various roles in various systems and he's clearly capable of playing this style of football. It's a huge difference.

Ultimately I see four clear issues in your team:

• The system is dependent on your fullbacks providing the width and they're not capable of it
• Your keeper, (more attacking) fullback and keeper are all key players in this setup but they're essentially just names, there's little evidence of their quality
• Busquets has no chance if he's left to deal with Charlton alone but on the other hand if Tardelli comes in to help then Falcao is simply getting overwhelmed by Edwards and Toure - it would be suicidal
• If as you say your midfielders are dealing with my midfield then it leaves Figo and Dzajic 1v1 all game with Brehme piling on the pressure on Falcao's side and overwhelming Marzolini multiple times throughout the game - that's not an effective setup on any level

Thuram can't be a wingback as we all know. Most agree he was best as one of three centre backs in Parma's late 90's team and after that he was best at centre back in Juve's early 00's team, the only reason he's known as a fullback is because France had a top class centre back partnership in Blanc-Desailly and there was no-one worth playing at right back that justified breaking up that partnership. He just can't play the role being asked of him here. Marzolini is more attacking and more comfortable on the ball but he didn't have the skill or pace to be a primary attacking outlet, he was just there to support whoever was in front of him. Added to that he was right-footed and like Schnellinger, Breitner, Junior or Lahm - and unlike Brehme - he would always drift into the middle of the pitch onto his weaker foot. On many occasions it's helpful to have a fullback who can come in and overload the midfield but in this case he's just getting in the way. There are few fullback combos in the draft - if any - that are more unsuited to playing this role.

At the end of the day that's a fatal flaw in the system that's going to cause any team to lose at this level. The problem is you have no alternative options. This 4231 is essentially going to be playing the same way your team is now and it's going to be reliant on your fullbacks offering qualities they just don't have. That problem's compounded by the fact that you're up against the second best wing combination in the draft. No matter how good Thuram and Marzolini are they won't be able to deal with being exposed to that level. No-one can. So you're left with the option of forcing Falcao and Tardelli to help out wide a lot more often than they'd like - in turn leaving Busquets brutally exposed to a surge forward from Edwards or Toure while Charlton runs off him with ease - or you gamble and hope your fullbacks somehow pull off a miracle here. There's no flaw in my side that even comes close to that, so the only reason someone can vote for EDogen is if they ignore that side of things completely or they feel that your individuals are so much better than mine that it'll override any tactical issues. I can't believe the latter is true.

 

[Theon]

That problem's compounded by the fact that you're up against the second best wing combination in the draft.

Great post.. but third best

 

[Moby]

Yeah agree to most things said by Brwned. The quality of width here will stretch the midfield quite heavily with Sir Bobby tearing it apart through the middle.

 

[Theon]

Only real thing I disagree with is I think Thuram can handle Dzajic - all in all Thuram got underrated a bit there, if any rightback in the whole draft is going to stop a top class winger it would be Thuram IMO. Immense defensively, but like Brwned says not best suited to the diamond system

 

[antohan]

I have no idea why Busquets has started. No job for him to do that Tardelli can't do. Mata would contribute a lot more. You can't have a squad with Rivelino, Sivori and Mata and get blasted for not having any width. It's criminal.

 

[Brwned]

Let's have a look at some of his players that in my view are just names. Gilmar is widely accepted as Brazil's greatest goalkeeper for essentially one reason - he was the keeper of their back-to-back World Cup winning side. If you look at pretty much any keeper from the 50s and mid 60s aside from Banks and Yashin you'll invariably find a host of incredible mistakes. Watch any of Portugal's matches in the '66 World Cup and you'll see some genuinely embarrassing goalkeeping. I haven't watched many games from this era outside of the World Cup but I'm absolutely convinced keeping at that time was very poor and it is the position that improved the most in the next 20 years or so. It's why Yashin is so revered - he was simply lightyears ahead of his contemporaries and a truly revolutionary player in his position. Even if you ignore that, what does being the greatest Brazilian keeper even mean? Taffarel must be the only competition there because if you look at their other World Cup winning keepers - Félix in 1970 and Dida in 2002 - they were invariably considered laughing stocks in even their home country.

The simplest way to make the point here is by looking at the records of these goalkeepers on top of their game at the highest level. Brazil conceded two goals a game on average in the knockout rounds of both 1958 and 1962, whereas in Euro 1972 and the 1974 WC Maier's Germany conceded less than a goal a game on both occasions. This is perhaps where the clearest difference on quality lies in the entire game.

Is this true if you dig deeper into Marzolini and Sivori? I'm not sure but it's up to EDogen to show otherwise. All we know is Sivori has a fancy nickname and Marzolini has a good reputation. There are people on this forum that will have seen every one of my team members on a regular basis apart from Dzajic - but then there's clear evidence of his quality from his performances at the top level in Euro '68. Best player of the tournament and a big part of that was down to his match-winning contribution that saw him beat the great Bobby Moore and Gordon Banks in the semi-final in one swift, elegant, clinical move. Is there the same evidence of Sivori and Marzolini's quality at the highest level or are we going to judge him on name alone with little evidence of how they played and how they were best used? Every one of my players is playing in a position they played in throughout their career to great success. Something tells me Marzolini and Sivori have never played in a setup remotely like this and are not being used effectively at all.

 

[Theon]

I have no idea why Busquets has started. No job for him to do that Tardelli can't do. Mata would contribute a lot more. You can't have a squad with Rivelino, Sivori and Mata and get blasted for not having any width. It's criminal.

I know nothing about Sivori, would he give width?

 

[Brwned]

Only real thing I disagree with is I think Thuram can handle Dzajic - all in all Thuram got underrated a bit there, if any rightback in the whole draft is going to stop a top class winger it would be Thuram IMO. Immense defensively, but like Brwned says not best suited to the diamond system

I'd argue Vogts is better suited to handling Dzajic as he's dealt with him previously and he's the more uncompromising defender but no doubt Thuram's a top class defensive right back. I just don't think any fullback can deal with Dzajic and Brehme single-handedly. Brehme will inevitably have acres of space to send in an endless supply of crosses to one of the most lethal predators the game has seen. It's just asking for trouble. Worth remembering that the 1990 Dutch side with Gullit, Rijkaard and co. decided that Brehme was a big enough threat for them to dedicate a man-marker to him in the World Cup quarter-final. There's very few fullbacks that have demanded that level of attention from a top side like that and there's even fewer that have been named the best player in the league - at a time when the Serie A was clearly the best in the world - and in the top three players in Europe in the Ballon d'Or rankings.

Thuram may be able to deal with Dzajic but he has no chance against Dzajic and Brehme, IMO.

 

[EDogen]

Just got home and must sleep asap... Since my rival manager so kindly has pointed out my weak spots I will make an effort to fix them before I sign off again.

Sergio Busquets off, on comes Juan Mata to provide the setup some needed witdh.

Marzolini and Thuram feel more suited to the new formation.

Tardelli and Falcao more than capable to handle the midfield battle.

Sivori dropping off Ronaldo as a playmaker which he played later in his career.

Rivelino and Mata on the wings to bring a better balance to my team.

 

[Theon]

Thuram may be able to deal with Dzajic but he has no chance against Dzajic and Brehme, IMO.

No definitely not, that's the huge weakness of the diamond when you get these 2 vs 1 situations. I had Figo and R Carlos doubling up against me in the last draft and I almost lost because of that.

But yeah, no chance of stopping those two on his own, as great as he is.

 

[Gio]

Let's have a look at some of his players that in my view are just names. Gilmar is widely accepted as Brazil's greatest goalkeeper for essentially one reason - he was the keeper of their back-to-back World Cup winning side. If you look at pretty much any keeper from the 50s and mid 60s aside from Banks and Yashin you'll invariably find a host of incredible mistakes. Watch any of Portugal's matches in the '66 World Cup and you'll see some genuinely embarrassing goalkeeping. I haven't watched many games from this era outside of the World Cup but I'm absolutely convinced keeping at that time was very poor and it is the position that improved the most in the next 20 years or so. It's why Yashin is so revered - he was simply lightyears ahead of his contemporaries and a truly revolutionary player in his position. Even if you ignore that, what does being the greatest Brazilian keeper even mean? Taffarel must be the only competition there because if you look at their other World Cup winning keepers - Félix in 1970 and Dida in 2002 - they were invariably considered laughing stocks in even their home country.

It's certainly the one position that has markedly improved and why I avoided a second-tier keeper born pre-'45.

 

[EDogen]

Since I did not have the time to present the "unknown" guys more than I did, here are some words on them.

Omar Sivori

"When Omar Sivori took to the field, he used to roll down his socks and provocatively expose his shins in order to show hack-happy defenders he wasn’t scared. His audacious dribbling ability did, after all, invite a lot of overzealous tackles. So exceptional was Sivori’s effervescent technique, that defenders found it immensely frustrating to get close to him. And, at just five-foot-six, he probably felt that he needed to make a statement beyond his size. In truth, though, Sivori was well able to handle himself. He was sent off on 10 occasions in his Serie A career – a record at the time – and once had to be slapped by John Charles to calm down.

Normally, however, the two got on much better. Indeed, despite their drastically different playing styles and personalities, Charles and Sivori complemented each other perfectly at Juventus. The little forward would destroy teams before the big Welshman would finish them. Their partnership led to three titles for Juventus and a 1961 Ballon D’Or for Sivori."

The Maradona of The Sixties” Omar Sivori is one of the legendary Argentinean-Italian footballers of Juventus. His playing style was as "audacious and brilliant". Sívori utilized his dribbling skills and favorite move of the nutmeg (playing the ball between an opposition players legs) to defeat defenders. Primarily a left footed player, Sívori had the ability to score with his left, his right and despite his relatively short stature his head; this would sometimes see him receiving kicks to the face. Especially while with Juventus, he was able to utilize his vision and passing skills, working in unison with Charles and Boniperti but also known for his weak physical condition. He mostly played as deep-lying forward for Juventus but switched down to play as playmaker in his late career with Napoli. Sivori holds the record for most Juventus goals in a single league game with six, this is also the joint record for any Serie A team shared with Silvio Piola.

So in my team Sivori will destroy teams before Ronaldo will finish them. Not that Sivori could not score, he scored 135 goals in 215 caps for Juve.

Here you have some evidence of this:




Silvio Marzolini

Silvio Marzolini is one of the best South American left-backs of all-time and is one of Boca Junior's greatest ever. Marzolini was really difficult to play against for attackers, was not fast but his excellent positioning was enough to control his area, could effectively go forward too. He had such good ball controlling that it gave him time and space to play the ball away safely. After the first stage group of World Cup 1966 had been finished, British Press rated him as the best player for that stage. Marzolini was chosen to play for the rest of the world all-star team against England at Wembley in 1967. However, He rather played too few matches for Argentina national team because there were a few matches to play during his era.

 

[Brwned]

I have no idea why Busquets has started. No job for him to do that Tardelli can't do. Mata would contribute a lot more. You can't have a squad with Rivelino, Sivori and Mata and get blasted for not having any width. It's criminal.

You see I don't agree with this. It means in Mata you now have a player more comfortable out wide than the player previously occupying the role - previously Falcao - but you've still got three central playmakers there. You can get away with one Mata in the side but three? Not for me. Rivelino played out there in '70 but he did so because Pelé and Tostão were keeping him out there - will he accept Sivori being the reason he's stuck out wide? I find it unlikely. Outside of that World Cup realistically how many times did he play there? Even then in that tournament he played in the middle whenever Gérson was too unfit to play and the setup they played often morphed into a 433 with Rivelino playing in the middle. He doesn't have the pace to play out wide and nor does Mata so inevitably they'll keep drifting into the middle and it'll still leave you with a clogged-up midfield area with the fullbacks needing to provide the width. Mata out wide was clearly nowhere near as effective as Mata down the middle - as his 30 goals/assists in 41 league and CL games last year compared to 24 in 46 the year before clearly demonstrates - and a less effective Mata is just not remotely in the class of the rest of the attackers here.

More importantly of course it means Tardelli and Falcao are now left with far too much to do with Sivori offering no support whatsoever and my midfield trio is starting to wrestle control of the game. Rivelino will provide a bit more support down that side but Camacho's now switched his man-marking job onto Rivelino and he'll be offering little going forward in this game anyway. Will Mata track back with Brehme? I think we've all seen his defensive frailties and the unbalancing effect of having those three attacking midfielders that it's had on Chelsea in the past year. It'll stop Brehme from getting forward at every chance but he'll still be providing the side with plenty of ammunition. Essentially it gives the side a more balanced look but it retains many of the same problems while now giving the initiative to Edwards, Charlton and Toure. A necessary switch given how the votes have drifted back in my favour but it creates as many new problems as it solves.

 

[EDogen]

Sivori in that position between the defence and midfield will create problems for your team and force Toure or Edwards to help out there. Tardelli and Falcao are more than capable of matching up against your midfielders. It is not like Yaya, Edwards and Charlton all will be storming forward at the same time, my midfield are just fine.

In defence they do not need Sivori to track back to his own penalty area.
In attack they have Sivori with fresh legs unlike Charlton who seems to be working his socks off in defence.

You like to "throw dirt" at the opposition team I know that. Nothing wrong with it either, in fact it is natural that you are trying to take out the worst side of my players and saying that they were not that great because people has not seen it but I am more the type who focus on my own team and I feel happy with it and they are ready to win this game.

 

[Brwned]

Since I did not have the time to present the "unknown" guys more than I did, here are some words on them.

Omar Sivori





So in my team Sivori will destroy teams before Ronaldo will finish them. Not that Sivori could not score, he scored 135 goals in 215 caps for Juve.

Here you have some evidence of this:




Silvio Marzolini

I could reel off a list of quotes about Dzajic that realistically only make for good reading and offer little practical value. We should be looking at their impact at the highest level. Sivori's Juventus never made it to the European Cup semi's, went out in the group stages at his only World Cup and he seemingly played a supporting role in the '57 Copa America. Dzajic on the other hand was the architect of a 4-1 European Cup semi final win in '71 - which they went on to lose 3-0 with Dzajic suspended in a very dubious match which saw the Greeks slip through - and he scored Yugoslavia's only goals in the semi-final and final of the 1968 Euro. Is there any of that for Gilmar, Marzolini and Sivori or is it just awards and personal eulogies found on the internet?

 

[Brwned]

Sivori in that position between the defence and midfield will create problems for your team and force Toure or Edwards to help out there. Tardelli and Falcao are more than capable of matching up against your midfielders. It is not like Yaya, Edwards and Charlton all will be storming forward at the same time, my midfield are just fine.

In defence they do not need Sivori to track back to his own penalty area.
In attack they have Sivori with fresh legs unlike Charlton who seems to be working his socks off in defence.

You like to "throw dirt" at the opposition team I know that. Nothing wrong with it either, in fact it is natural that you are trying to take out the worst side of my players and saying that they were not that great because people has not seen it but I am more the type who focus on my own team and I feel happy with it and they are ready to win this game.

When my team have the ball it'll be 3v2 in midfield - Sivori causing problems for my side doesn't factor into things in that phase of play. Charlton is central to the way my teams set up and absolutely will be doing everything he can to get at your defence. Presumably Tardelli will take on the task of tracking him so that leaves Falcao to deal with the two midfield powerhouses. They'll be getting forward regularly with that kind of opportunity presented to them, no doubt about that. Even when they're not bursting forward there's always going to be at least one free man in midfield to cut you apart with excellent passing from deep with the aim of leaving your fullbacks on the backfoot. I'm sorry but there's no way Marzolini is keeping Figo quiet if he has a constant supply of the ball and your midfield setup has now given them the platform to do just that.

Charlton absolutely is working his socks off when the team's not in possession because that's simply in his nature. It's not inhibiting him in any way. In the same way you'd be restricting Matthaus if you simply asked him to focus purely on the defensive side of the game, you'd be restricting Charlton if you asked him to focus purely on the attacking side of the game. He has so much to offer and is one of the most selfless #10s in this competition that it'd be foolish to waste these qualities. If I was asking him to perform a man-marking job akin to the one he executed so well on Beckenbauer all those years back then yes, it'd be misusing him. In this case he's simply ensuring Tardelli isn't given the freedom of the park in midfield.

I don't see it as throwing dirt so much as looking at where the opposition's weak points are and instructing my team on how to exploit them - I'd say it's neglectful for a manager to do otherwise, to be honest.

 

[Gio]

No concerns over Sivori there, he's one of the top 30s picks. He'd dovetail nicely with Ronaldo and while Mata and Rivelino may not be the most balanced partners, there's enough roaming potential there to make it work as a front four.

 

[Jayvin]

Why is Camacho on the right? I thought it was just a mistake in the formation graphic but then Brwned talked about Brehme and Dzajic doubling up...

 

[antohan]

Let's have a look at some of his players that in my view are just names. Gilmar is widely accepted as Brazil's greatest goalkeeper for essentially one reason - he was the keeper of their back-to-back World Cup winning side. If you look at pretty much any keeper from the 50s and mid 60s aside from Banks and Yashin you'll invariably find a host of incredible mistakes. Watch any of Portugal's matches in the '66 World Cup and you'll see some genuinely embarrassing goalkeeping. I haven't watched many games from this era outside of the World Cup but I'm absolutely convinced keeping at that time was very poor and it is the position that improved the most in the next 20 years or so. It's why Yashin is so revered - he was simply lightyears ahead of his contemporaries and a truly revolutionary player in his position. Even if you ignore that, what does being the greatest Brazilian keeper even mean? Taffarel must be the only competition there because if you look at their other World Cup winning keepers - Félix in 1970 and Dida in 2002 - they were invariably considered laughing stocks in even their home country.

The simplest way to make the point here is by looking at the records of these goalkeepers on top of their game at the highest level. Brazil conceded two goals a game on average in the knockout rounds of both 1958 and 1962, whereas in Euro 1972 and the 1974 WC Maier's Germany conceded less than a goal a game on both occasions. This is perhaps where the clearest difference on quality lies in the entire game.

Surely the way the German side approached defending relative to the Brazilian approach had a say in that? Very odd and harsh way to go about having a go at Gilmar. He was not in Maier's bracket but I don't think he will drop a bollock either.

You see I don't agree with this. It means in Mata you now have a player more comfortable out wide than the player previously occupying the role - previously Falcao - but you've still got three central playmakers there. You can get away with one Mata in the side but three? Not for me. Rivelino played out there in '70 but he did so because Pelé and Tostão were keeping him out there - will he accept Sivori being the reason he's stuck out wide? I find it unlikely. Outside of that World Cup realistically how many times did he play there? Even then in that tournament he played in the middle whenever Gérson was too unfit to play and the setup they played often morphed into a 433 with Rivelino playing in the middle. He doesn't have the pace to play out wide and nor does Mata so inevitably they'll keep drifting into the middle and it'll still leave you with a clogged-up midfield area with the fullbacks needing to provide the width. Mata out wide was clearly nowhere near as effective as Mata down the middle - as his 30 goals/assists in 41 league and CL games last year compared to 24 in 46 the year before clearly demonstrates - and a less effective Mata is just not remotely in the class of the rest of the attackers here.

More importantly of course it means Tardelli and Falcao are now left with far too much to do with Sivori offering no support whatsoever and my midfield trio is starting to wrestle control of the game. Rivelino will provide a bit more support down that side but Camacho's now switched his man-marking job onto Rivelino and he'll be offering little going forward in this game anyway. Will Mata track back with Brehme? I think we've all seen his defensive frailties and the unbalancing effect of having those three attacking midfielders that it's had on Chelsea in the past year. It'll stop Brehme from getting forward at every chance but he'll still be providing the side with plenty of ammunition. Essentially it gives the side a more balanced look but it retains many of the same problems while now giving the initiative to Edwards, Charlton and Toure. A necessary switch given how the votes have drifted back in my favour but it creates as many new problems as it solves.

No time to address it all. One thing I would say is I would have made it Sívori-Rivelino-Mata. No line-huggers there but the two out wide can drift wide if that is what the play requires and I would rely on Rivelino to 1. help out in midfield (although I don't see Falcao-Tardelli overrun at all) 2. stay central or move right/left as and when. He is more appropriate for that sort of role I think.

I could reel off a list of quotes about Dzajic that realistically only make for good reading and offer little practical value. We should be looking at their impact at the highest level. Sivori's Juventus never made it to the European Cup semi's, went out in the group stages at his only World Cup and he seemingly played a supporting role in the '57 Copa America. Dzajic on the other hand was the architect of a 4-1 European Cup semi final win in '71 - which they went on to lose 3-0 with Dzajic suspended in a very dubious match which saw the Greeks slip through - and he scored Yugoslavia's only goals in the semi-final and final of the 1968 Euro. Is there any of that for Gilmar, Marzolini and Sivori or is it just awards and personal eulogies found on the internet?

There's one point about Sívori which is more relevant than him being "the Maradona of the 60s". Maradona in his early days was occasionally referred to as "the new Sívori". That doesn't fit with your description of a run-of-the-mill bit part player.

 

[Red-Indian]

Got to give it to Edogen. Ronaldo fed by that trio will be lethal...unstoppable really.

 

[Isotope]

Rooney is referred to "the white Pele".

 

[Moby]

Bit rich of Brwned to call the Ballon D'or "just an award" when he's used that multiple times to add credit to his players.

Anyway you cannot really compare Sivori to Dzajic here. Sivori is Ed's third or probably 4th most important player in attack, it is not like his whole game depends on his performing well or not, while Dzajic is your second most important after Sir Bobby. Ed's main attacking play is coming from Ronaldo, Rivelino and Falcao which is a brilliant spine.

I've voted for you as I see Charlton taking this game by the scruff of it's neck, and he's well capable of it. Can't see Tardelli keeping him quiet at all, plus Rio and Bergomi is a fantastic CB pair which can prove tough for the Brazilian. I probably would have had a tough time voting if ED had started with this formation, but the diamond just didn't do it for me against top wingers. But anyway let's not make unfair comparisons!

 

[antohan]

Rooney is referred to "the white Pele".

It may not make Rooney great, but it certainly says something about how much people rate Pelé. No one goes around calling people "the new <shit player>", except maybe on RAWK.

For Argies to refer to someone as evidently hugely talented and one of a kind as Diego as "the new Sívori" it says a lot about Sívori not just being a second rate Copa América squad player. It´s not like it's Liberia and George Weah, Argentina has tonnes of great players who Maradona could be the new one of.

I do agree with Brwned though that ultimately it is for the manager to make his players' case.

 

[antohan]

plus Rio and Bergomi is a fantastic CB pair which can prove tough for the Brazilian.

I'm not a huge fan of Rio on the left CB role, have no recollection of him ever playing there. As with the Netto discussion, he would be fine defensively but undermined in possession. Undermining a ball-playing CB by wrong-footing him is really odd.

 

[Moby]

Yep he totally ignored that part while picking Bergomi! Don't think people voting detect that either, as seen in my post.

 

[Isotope]

It may not make Rooney great, but it certainly says something about how much people rate Pelé. No one goes around calling people "the new <shit player>", except maybe on RAWK.

For Argies to refer to someone as evidently hugely talented and one of a kind as Diego as "the new Sívori" it says a lot about Sívori not just being a second rate Copa América squad player. It´s not like it's Liberia and George Weah, Argentina has tonnes of great players who Maradona could be the new one of.

I do agree with Brwned though that ultimately it is for the manager to make his players' case.

Agreed about Sivori must be a good player. I was joking, hence the wink smiley.
But never heard/read about Sivori, right until listing at the 30's players. His goalscoring record is pretty impressive though.

 

[Moby]

Currently it is all level. Excellent contest!

 

[EDogen]

Got to give it to Edogen. Ronaldo fed by that trio will be lethal...unstoppable really.

Yes, and add my solid defence to that and we have a winning unit.

 

[Ish]

Wow, 12-12...who's going to take it!? Who's go OGS on the bench!!!

Good luck guys.

 

[KM]

Currently it is all level. Excellent contest!

Brwned technically holds the lead as Edo has voted for himself, Brwned hasn't!

 

[Moby]

Yeah it was 12-11 when I posted. Brwned is in the lead again.