Decades Draft Tournament : antohan vs Cutch

[Moby]

The aim of this poll is to decide which team will win based on all the players being at their respective peaks. The player profiles have been linked in both tactics so please go through them to read a brief description about all the players involved in the game!

antohan's tactics

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Bolded bits is the exec summary

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I'm facing a very good side with plenty of mouthwatering individuals in there. Not to worry, Team Antohan is a side which has been assembled with counterattacking in mind. Not every player out there is the most familiar star, but they have been picked on the basis of their attributes and how those contribute to making a devastating counterattacking team.

I don't have room for limited one-dimensional footballers. My game is based on soaking and making quick transitions to unleash very effective routes to goal. This requires:

1) A strong defensive setup.
2) Players capable of spraying balls and executing the transition.
3) Forwards who have the pace, power and wizardry to penetrate and destroy defences.

I have the lot, and there's nothing as devastating as a well executed counter-attacking strategy. Space afforded to the right players, with the right service, is the nightmare scenario for any defence. And the beauty is the more you score, the more space you get.

That's really the argument ultimately but read on because a fair bit of what is going on requires explanation (e.g. Zanetti and Luis Enrique are NOT the wrong way around).

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STRONG DEFENSIVE SETUP

My defence is expertly marshalled by Fernando Hierro, the man who made it possible for Real Madrid to win three Champions League titles with defenders such as Sanchis, Helguera, Karanka and Salgado. Marcel Desailly is as good and complimentary a partner as he could hope for. Messi is a handful indeed, but how often does he face such a central pair?

The flanks are not an issue and are therefore patrolled by wingbacks, selected on the basis of the constant to and fro the role requires. On the left is Facchetti, the best and most complete attacking leftback the game has witnessed.Never before and never again in football history has a side been built around a leftback, let alone a European Cup winning one. Neither has any other fullback scored in double digits from open play in any competitive league. On the right I have Luis Enrique, a free-scoring box-to-box midfielder who wasn't just competent but featured in a World Cup as a fullback.

Why not Zanetti there? Because Cutch poses ZERO threat from out wide on my right flank. Stoichkov cut inside, Breitner cut inside as a right-footer does, same with Maldini. Iniesta will drift left to more or less the same space. That is,they all go for the space between the fullback and the RCB. None of his options can provide anything Luis Enrique can't deal with out wide and certainly nothing I would particularly worry about as Cutch poses no aerial threat either.

The issue is that space between Lucho and Hierro, which is why Zanetti is the one tasked with protecting that area and preventing any significant build up. The main threat I can see from Cutch is Iniesta and Stoichkov breaking through there, which is why the better defender is required to stop any of that nonsense. If Stoichkov doesn't play, all the better. On the left Junior is doing the same. Better known as the leftback that made the 1982 WC XI, Junior later played as a DM and left midfield playmaker and is widely regarded as one of the main influences and role models for Brazilian midfielders to become more disciplined and organised in the run up to WC94. Notice how both of them are not just well suited to their role as a double lock but probably the best conceivable cover for the marauding wingbacks.

Schuster completes the defensive setup. A complete midfielder who could play as a deep or advanced playmaker, but also one who would put a mighty shift (so much so that he had a stint at libero at Real) and was a handful going forward.If Schuster were on the market today he would be exactly what United could do with, for about twice our current transfer record. He will alternate between acting as deep-lying playmaker and bursting forward in attack looking to play his exquisite one-twos with Lucho, Joya or Eusebio.

PLAYERS CAPABLE OF SPRAYING BALLS AND EXECUTING THE TRANSITION

However much Cutch tries my supply can't be cut off as there are several ball players able to play it to my forwards or wingbacks.

Hierro is probably up there with the very best ball-playing defenders in this draft and can spray balls from deep.

Junior was awarded Serie A Best Player in 1985 in his incarnation as a midfield playmaker, despite competing against the likes of Maradona, Falcao and Platini in his pomp (Platini got Ballon d'Or and top scorer for a third consecutive year in 1985, but Junior took Serie A Best Player...).

Schuster was the best German playmaker of the last 30 years and pinged balls for fun. The Spanish media refer to him as "Pirlo with Effenberg's power".

FORWARDS WHO HAVE THE PACE, POWER AND WIZARDRY TO PENETRATE AND DESTROY DEFENCES

At the receiving end, Facchetti is in his element bombing up the pitch to receive unmarked and go for the byline overlapping with Joya. Same goes for Luis Enrique, although he will play Garrincha on and cut inside. Zanetti may be the one going forward and wide occasionally, but Garrincha needs no 2v1, other than the 2v1 that is the bare minimum to try stop him.

Joya and Eusebio excelled in the art of counterattacking football. They will be constantly moving and coming deep to receive or get the ball played for them to run onto (the CBs have to stay deep as either would skin them for pace).

Garrincha will just be Garrincha. No instructions, it's pointless to try dictate on such runaway genius, he will just toy with defenders for fun even if they are the very best. No one could get the ball off him.

Whatever DM arrangement Cutch makes is redundant with the personnel at his disposal. There are few sights in football as awesome as Eusebio going on a run from midfield, leaving midfielders for dead, the CBs too scared to come out and get beaten, only to see him let fly and score from range anyway. The power and accuracy of his shots... a bit like Cristiano's screamers but invariably on target.

Eusebio is a devastating upgrade on the centreforward who is, to this day, the highest scorer in Copa Libertadores history largely on the back of Juan Joya's direct and effective wingforward play. I don't want to go over the top so I'll refer to non-greats to profile him: think the selflessness, consistency and directness of Valencia in his good year, add another peg, Nani's dribbling and a 1 in 2 record. He wasn't George Best, but a cracking and useful player nevertheless who suits my frontline and rounds it up well.

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ROUTES TO GOAL

1. Facchetti overlap and cross for Joya, Eusebio or Luis Enrique to head in. All excellent headers and prolific scorers.Cutch has nothing that compares.

2. Facchetti or Joya breaks through between RB and CB and shoots, cuts back or passes across the face of goal for a tap in. Cutch will struggle to fashion this in tight spaces and facing a more organised defence.

3. Eusebio trademark run from midfield and long range screamer, a classic. Again, Cutch will struggle to avoid getting shots closed down when facing a tighter and more organised defence. Breitner did have a good shot on him but was by no means as prolific.

4. Joya/Eusebio/Schuster/Lucho combining for a one-two through the middle. Difficult, the CB pair is very good on this front. This is Cutch's main route to goal, against a well setup and organised defence. He will bag one eventually, two at a push.

5. Garrincha shitting on everyone who gets close and replicating both 1 and 2 in a much more mouthwatering way. Cutch has no one like Garrincha on either flank.

6. Set pieces. Junior is the best set piece taker on the pitch, by a margin. If it is power you look for Eusebio and Hierro can provide it. If it is a placed lob then Schuster. But Junior combined power, accuracy and curl. Probably among the best ever taking corners. Cutch has a couple who could replicate a Hierro or Schuster, but not a Junior. And he has no one who will particularly trouble me aerially.

PLAYER PROFILES​

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TEAM ANTOHAN​

4-3-3, WINGBACKS PUSHED UP FOR CLARITY​

SUBS: CAMPBELL, SCHWEINSTEIGER, CARLOS ALBERTO​

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TEAM Cutch​

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Subs: Hristo Stoitchkov, Jordi Alba, Valery Voronin​

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Cutch's tactics

Tactics​

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The newly acquired Paulo Maldini and Andres Iniesta come straight in to the side. Maldini, probably the greatest left back of all time is assigned the role of nullifying the dangerman Garrincha. Nesta will be tasked with marshalling Eusebio, with the covering Ayala looking after him at set pieces to deal with the aerial threat. Ajax and Holland stalwart Wim Suurbier who is used to facing many a star name will be relishing facing Joya (some bloke from Peru), and will look to get forward at every opportunity.​

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In midfield, World Cup winners Breitner and Mauro Silva are in the engine room with 'The Golden Boy of Italian Football' Gianni Rivera pulling the strings just ahead of them. Breitner, a scorer in 2 World Cup finals, along with 1969 Ballon D'Or winner Rivera will be looking to stamp their influence on this game and should get the license to strut their stuff with outstanding ballwinner Mauro Silva frustrating the opposition and keeping the ball recycled.​

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My forwards need no introduction. 3 players that can play anywhere across the line and so will provide a very fluid attack. Iniesta will probably have the most freedom with him also dropping deep if required. German legend Rummenigge (Ballon D'or winner in 80 and 81) will renew acquaintances with Facchetti after a good battle in the last round against Team Gio. ​

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Then we have Messi...In a false no.9 role he will frequently collect the ball in the area between Antohans defence and midfield. Driving at the likes of Desailly and particularly Hierro his low centre of gravity and trickery will torment them all game.​

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Why i will win​

- Proven outstanding partnerships (Maldini-Nesta, Rummenigge-Breitner, Messi-Iniesta)​

- 2 of the all time great defenders to deal with Eusebio and Garrincha.​

- The perfect blend in midfield of tactical nous, defensive discipline, graft, technique and flair. Players proven on the biggest stage with club or country.​

- Players that are all classy in possession and are comfortable at playing a strong pressing game.​

- Lionel Messi​

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[antohan]

It's all fancy names chucked on a teamsheet.

Rivera shone pinging balls in an open 4-2-4 setting, which is inconsistent with Iniesta and Messi's tiki taka possession football, which will be completely alien to Breitner and Rummenigge.

Nice collection, but it doesn't make a well-oiled side.

 

[antohan]

Particularly when the manager seems to have prepared them for a different defence, see below:

Give me a while to digest what you've gone and done here.

They will have no idea what is going on for a large part of the first half. All the moves they looked at on that left flank are shot.

 

[antohan]

Bloody hell Cutch, you don't half oversize your teamsheet!

You should load it for message boards on tinypic, that's a more agreeable size

 

[antohan]

Glad you have benched Stoichkov. I thought you had a stronger side with him.

That left flank looks strong on paper but lacks width, I addressed that in my write up and setup. Iniesta and Breitner will both end up in the inside left area patrolled by Zanetti. Luis Enrique has a comfortable job out wide and at worst has to keep tabs on Maldini, who would be pointless going up there as there is nothing to cross to. Brilliant for me though if he does, Garrincha would love it.

His right flank I will shit on.

Schuster is comfortably shackling Rivera, who makes that midfield weaker defensively. Not that DMs matter as they will have the ball played over their heads or Eusebio leaving them for dead in one burst of speed.

 

[Cutch]

Give me a while to digest what you've gone and done here. Seems at first glance that you've worried too much about the opposition when lining up your team. Hierro looks to be particularly vulnerable, and Iniesta will be licking his lips at the room he'll get in behind Luis Enrique.

Think you have too many players not in their preferred positions and that you'll suffer as a result

 

[antohan]

Ajax and Holland stalwart Wim Suurbier who is used to facing many a star name will be relishing facing Joya (some bloke from Peru), and will look to get forward at every opportunity.

Let the dirt-slinging begin... Suurbier is out of his depth at this level. Hell, he was the weakest on the park for club and country and isn't even playing total football here.

I knew you would say this sort of shit about Joya, all I can hope for is for people to click on his name, read up and make up their mind.

You blissfully ignore the fact I have acquired the most dangerous attacking leftback the game has seen. I did it precisely to compliment Joya's play. Facchetti gave you a torrid time last game and shall do so again. The difference is now he is not the sole route to your goal.

 

[antohan]

Give me a while to digest what you've gone and done here. Seems at first glance that you've worried too much about the opposition when lining up your team. Hierro looks to be particularly vulnerable, and Iniesta will be licking his lips at the room he'll get in behind Luis Enrique.

Think you have too many players not in their preferred positions and that you'll suffer as a result

There's no room behind Luis Enrique for Iniesta to exploit.

Zanetti has Iniesta's number in the space he would actually operate in and also if Luis Enrique charges forward when I have the ball.

It's quite simple, I put the better defender where you could pose any danger, i.e. not out wide.

 

[antohan]

Think you have too many players not in their preferred positions and that you'll suffer as a result

Nonsense.

• Junior won Serie A player of the year in 1985 as a midfield playmaker and Brazil Player of the Year in 1992 in that exact same role.

• Zanetti was extremely competent as a DM and will be glad I've put him in the thick of where the danger is rather than shunted on the flank watching the game fly past him.

• Lucho started his career as a fullback and played as one in a World Cup. He was best going box-to-box, in counter-attacking setups and arriving in the box between the CB and LB. That is exactly what I'm asking him to do, allowing him to be less concerned by defensive duties in the knowledge he has excellent cover.

 

[Cutch]

''Whatever DM arrangement Cutch makes is redundant with the personnel at his disposal. There are few sights in football as awesome as Eusebio going on a run from midfield, leaving midfielders for dead''

That will be Mauro Silvas responsibility. No better man to deal with that sort of threat running from deep.

Cutch poses ZERO threat from out wide on my right flank

Bizarre statement. What do you think Andres Iniesta will be doing?

 

[Cutch]

Bloody hell Cutch, you don't half oversize your teamsheet!

You should load it for message boards on tinypic, that's a more agreeable size

Tried 2 different sizes, 1 was too big and the other too small

 

[antohan]

That will be Mauro Silvas responsibility. No better man to deal with that sort of threat running from deep.

He will fail. Have you watched Eusebio much? It's also handy that then he then clearly can't be supporting Wim Suurbier against Joya and Facchetti. Or will he stand in no man's land waiting to see which out of Eusebio/Joya/Facchetti the ball is pinged to?

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Bizarre statement. What do you think Andres Iniesta will be doing?

Will Iniesta be hugging the line then? High crossing to what? Brilliant, love that, best place for him to be as far as I am concerned. Zanetti has successfully shunted him to where he will make the least impact.

 

[Cutch]

Facchetti overlap and cross for Joya, Eusebio or Luis Enrique to head in. All excellent headers and prolific scorers.Cutch has nothing that compares

Ayala on Eusebio, Nesta probably on the front post and Maldini taking Enrique coming in at the back. Not a huge concern.

 

[antohan]

Ayala on Eusebio, Nesta probably on the front post and Maldini taking Enrique coming in at the back. Not a huge concern.

You'd better clear that ball or it may well get flicked on for an unmarked Garrincha. Talk about getting yourself in trouble. An unmarked Garrincha, awesome.

 

[Cutch]

He will fail. Have you watched Eusebio much? It's also handy that then he then clearly can't be supporting Wim Suurbier against Joya and Facchetti. Or will he stand in no man's land waiting to see which out of Eusebio/Joya/Facchetti the ball is pinged to?

Seen a good show on Eusebio the other night. Yes he's a threat at collecting from deep but Silva will be patrolling that area and will look to break up and frustrate Eusebio like he's done to so many other of the games greats (Zidane, Figo, Rivaldo etc). my back 4 will be still intact if he does get past Silva. If he gets past Nesta and then Ayala, then fair play.

Will Iniesta be hugging the line then? High crossing to what? Brilliant, love that, best place for him to be as far as I am concerned. Zanetti has successfully shunted him to where he will make the least impact.

He'll not be hugging the line, but he'll be roaming about in that sort of area. It looks like you're playing right into his hands with that sort of layout.

 

[Cutch]

You'd better clear that ball or it may well get flicked on for an unmarked Garrincha. Talk about getting yourself in trouble. An unmarked Garrincha, awesome.

You've given me 3 supposed threats (i say supposed because you could say anything about Joya and we won't have a clue!), and i've given you a minimum of 3 that i would hope can deal with it. Hardly 'nothing that compares' as you put it

 

[Cutch]

Is Hierro's relative lack of pace/mobility not a concern Anto? Its not just anyone he's marking here, Messi is gonna roast him!

 

[antohan]

Seen a good show on Eusebio the other night. Yes he's a threat at collecting from deep but Silva will be patrolling that area and will look to break up and frustrate Eusebio like he's done to so many other of the games greats (Zidane, Figo, Rivaldo etc). my back 4 will be still intact if he does get past Silva. If he gets past Nesta and then Ayala, then fair play.

Your backline would get skinned via ball over the top if they played high up against Joya, Esuebio and Garrincha. There's a really significant pace disparity.

You can only ever defend deep so if Eusebio collects deep I have your entire half to place the ball for Eusebio to pick up. Mauro Silva can't keep up with him. If Eusebio is charging towards Silva at pace I know who I fancy.

No, I didn't say Eusebio would then go on to beat the two CBs as well. He could shoot before they even do anything about it, he can pass to Garrincha or Joya either side of him and, finally, yes he can try beat either CB before shooting.

He'll not be hugging the line, but he'll be roaming about in that sort of area. It looks like you're playing right into his hands with that sort of layout.

Nothing will happen if he is out there. My worry with Iniesta was him combining with Stoichkov to fashion the break through between CB and RB. That's where both are dangerous.

One isn't playing and the other you will apparently send to play way out wide so he can escape Zanetti's attentions. Awesome.

 

[antohan]

Is Hierro's relative lack of pace/mobility not a concern Anto? Its not just anyone he's marking here, Messi is gonna roast him!

What part of "I'm defending deep, soaking and hitting on the counter" did you not get? It's largely irrelevant. Not that peak Hierro was the slow-mo beast you are depicting.

Hierro faced peak Ronaldo with the result of that game crucial to determine who would top the Liga in 96/97. He produced a man of the match performance which drew a standing ovation. Real won the league by two points.

Unfortunately him and Desailly never faced Messi, but I'd fancy them to keep him quiet, particularly when his service is also compromised.

 

[Cutch]

Your backline would get skinned via ball over the top if they played high up against Joya, Esuebio and Garrincha. There's a really significant pace disparity.

You can only ever defend deep so if Eusebio collects deep I have your entire half to place the ball for Eusebio to pick up. Mauro Silva can't keep up with him. If Eusebio is charging towards Silva at pace I know who I fancy.

No, I didn't say Eusebio would then go on to beat the two CBs as well. He could shoot before they even do anything about it, he can pass to Garrincha or Joya either side of him and, finally, yes he can try beat either CB before shooting.

Theres no need at all to play deep if you're looking to regularly get Eusebio to drop deep to collect. This side will look to press you as much as possible in your own half. Nesta will be generally briefed to watch Eusebio but when he does drop he's coming straight into Mauro Silva territory. Theres no worries about a lack of pace in my back line. Suurbier and Nesta have pace to burn, Maldini also pretty quick. Its only really Ayala but he makes up for it in his reading, he'll generally be the covering defender in this one.

Nothing will happen if he is out there. My worry with Iniesta was him combining with Stoichkov to fashion the break through between CB and RB. That's where both are dangerous.

One isn't playing and the other you will apparently send to play way out wide so he can escape Zanetti's attentions. Awesome.

What do you mean nothing will happen . Iniesta will play where there is space. If you're lining up with Enrique where you are you'll be asking for trouble in behind, particularly where Messi collects from deep and looks to play it through. Zanetti won't really be able to deal with Iniesta from this type of attack as the likes of Breitner and Rivera will already be breaking through.

 

[antohan]

You've given me 3 supposed threats (i say supposed because you could say anything about Joya and we won't have a clue!), and i've given you a minimum of 3 that i would hope can deal with it. Hardly 'nothing that compares' as you put it

I listed the most likely headers. By "Cutch has nothing that compares" I meant you have no one posing a comparable threat at the other end.

 

[Cutch]

What part of "I'm defending deep, soaking and hitting on the counter" did you not get? It's largely irrelevant. Not that peak Hierro was the slow-mo beast you are depicting.

Hierro faced peak Ronaldo with the result of that game crucial to determine who would top the Liga in 96/97. He produced a man of the match performance which drew a standing ovation. Real won the league by two points.

Unfortunately him and Desailly never faced Messi, but I'd fancy them to keep him quiet, particularly when his service is also compromised.

It doesn't matter a feck how deep you're defending, you're still going to have him running at you. Defending as deep as you are will be pretty much inviting the pressure, thats a very dangerous game to be playing. You're reliant on the counter attacking play, but i really don't think it will bring the joy you think it will. This side woould be very well set up to deal with such a threat as i've mentioned earlier.

 

[Cutch]

I listed the most likely headers. By "Cutch has nothing that compares" I meant you have no one posing a comparable threat at the other end.

Fair enough. You do have your threats in the air but like i said, i don't think its a particular worry with the likes of Ayala and Nesta defending. You're right, i deliberately will not be posing a threat in the air, this game will be won on the ground with dribbling, short passing, and clever movement off the ball.

 

[antohan]

Theres no need at all to play deep if you're looking to regularly get Eusebio to drop deep to collect. This side will look to press you as much as possible in your own half. Nesta will be generally briefed to watch Eusebio but when he does drop he's coming straight into Mauro Silva territory. Theres no worries about a lack of pace in my back line. Suurbier and Nesta have pace to burn, Maldini also pretty quick. Its only really Ayala but he makes up for it in his reading, he'll generally be the covering defender in this one.

Are you saying you are playing a high line? If it isn't Eusebio doesn't ALWAYS drop deep, he can pretty much position and wait for the ball to be played to him anywhere he wants it. If you are playing a high line you have no idea the supernatural pace you are facing. It's not me saying supernatural, watch the clip above and it will get mentioned 3-4 times in reference to the Black Panther.

Joya and Facchetti will not be far from that, mind.

What do you mean nothing will happen . Iniesta will play where there is space. If you're lining up with Enrique where you are you'll be asking for trouble in behind, particularly where Messi collects from deep and looks to play it through. Zanetti won't really be able to deal with Iniesta from this type of attack as the likes of Breitner and Rivera will already be breaking through.

Schuster has Rivera's number. I agree, Breitner also attacks the same area Iniesta and Stoichkov would. That's why Zanetti is there, because that's where your men are in your element. Zanetti is not being dragged around by Iniesta, he is owning that part of the pitch with the support of Hierro behind him and Luis Enrique on his right, which is where Iniesta will most likely end up: away from the danger zones.

 

[antohan]

Gotta take a break now, wife is moaning!

 

[Cutch]

Are you saying you are playing a high line? If it isn't Eusebio doesn't ALWAYS drop deep, he can pretty much position and wait for the ball to be played to him anywhere he wants it. If you are playing a high line you have no idea the supernatural pace you are facing. It's not me saying supernatural, watch the clip above and it will get mentioned 3-4 times in reference to the Black Panther.

Joya and Facchetti will not be far from that, mind.

I'd be playing a fairly high line yes. I want this game to be played in your half which you are seemingly happy for me to do. The further away from my goal that you are the better. I have 2 of the all time greats in my back 4 and Ayala who's also fantastic at controlling a back line, with the destroyer Mauro Silva infront. They've got this shit under control.

Schuster has Rivera's number. I agree, Breitner also attacks the same area Iniesta and Stoichkov would. That's why Zanetti is there, because that's where your men are in your element. Zanetti is not being dragged around by Iniesta, he is owning that part of the pitch with the support of Hierro behind him and Luis Enrique on his right, which is where Iniesta will most likely end up: away from the danger zones.

Iniesta will have a field day, he really will. Zanetti will have enough on his plate and i'd be surprised if he was anywhere near to be dealing with him. It should really be Luis Enrique's responsibility but if he switched off at all a slide rule pass through that channel and Iniesta is on to it running through on goal.

 

[Cutch]

Gotta take a break now, wife is moaning!

Good. i wouldn't mind seeing the 2nd half of this Liverpool-Villa game to be honest

 

[Skorenzy]

Nonsense.

• Junior won Serie A player of the year in 1985 as a midfield playmaker and Brazil Player of the Year in 1992 in that exact same role.

• Zanetti was extremely competent as a DM and will be glad I've put him in the thick of where the danger is rather than shunted on the flank watching the game fly past him.

• Lucho started his career as a fullback and played as one in a World Cup. He was best going box-to-box, in counter-attacking setups and arriving in the box between the CB and LB. That is exactly what I'm asking him to do, allowing him to be less concerned by defensive duties in the knowledge he has excellent cover.

Source? As far as I know there was no such award (not an official one anyway) back then. I seem to recall from newspaper ratings of his period in Serie A that he was outstanding in most seasons, the 1984/85 one being his most noted as world class, although he received higher ratings in later seasons, even being one of the top rated players in 88/89 while playing for Pescara. He also, in addition to his Bola de Ouro, had 5 nominations for Bola de Prata, being the highest rated on average in his position on 5 occasions (1980, 1983, 1984, 1991 & 1992), nearly equalling his team mate Zico who did win one more Bola de Ouro.

 

[antohan]

Source? As far as I know there was no such award (not an official one anyway) back then. I seem to recall from newspaper ratings of his period in Serie A that he was outstanding in most seasons, the 1984/85 one being his most noted as world class, although he received higher ratings in later seasons, even being one of the top rated players in 88/89 while playing for Pescara.

I can link you to wiki in portuguese? That has the most complete and extensive account of his honours, obviously.

Melhor Jogador do Campeonato Italiano: 1985

I think I know what you mean. The Oscar del Calcio was instituted well into the 90s but I'm positive there was a Serie A Player of the Year Award before that. No recollection who awarded it, and I'm not sure if they differentiated Italian and Foreign though. In Spain they certainly did.

He also, in addition to his Bola de Ouro, had 5 nominations for Bola de Prata, being the highest rated on average in his position on 5 occasions (1980, 1983, 1984, 1991 & 1992), nearly equalling his team mate Zico who did win one more Bola de Ouro.

Yeah, I just don't like arguing my player's case rolling off honours lists. But that comparison actually says a lot.

Placar started those awards in the early 70s or so and to think the difference between the most decorated one ever (Zico) and Junior is a single Best Player of the Year is quite something. They had comparably long careers in Brazil, for the same team, and one was the sexy creator and goalscorer...

 

[antohan]

Fair enough. You do have your threats in the air but like i said, i don't think its a particular worry with the likes of Ayala and Nesta defending.

But you mentioned before how the personal details worked and that left Garrincha completely unattended. You really will need to win pretty much every single one of these headers.

You're right, i deliberately will not be posing a threat in the air, this game will be won on the ground with dribbling, short passing, and clever movement off the ball.

I wonder how Rivera would fit alongside a tiki taka pair, which in turn played a very different brand of football to your German pair. I don't see compatible association football which will deliver what you describe. I see disjointed isolated efforts from very good players all trying to play the way that made them successful in their respective pairs and roles.

All my players suit counter-attacking football, some are quite clearly not just suited but among the very best ever at it.

I'd be playing a fairly high line yes. I want this game to be played in your half which you are seemingly happy for me to do. The further away from my goal that you are the better. I have 2 of the all time greats in my back 4 and Ayala who's also fantastic at controlling a back line, with the destroyer Mauro Silva infront. They've got this shit under control.

Your destroyer will be hopelessly stranded, always in two minds as to what danger he is covering (surely you are not leaving Facchetti and Joya on Suurbier?????).

Your high line will get raped, no matter how good they were. You really have no idea what pace differential and body strength you are dealing with here. Or you don't want to know.

Iniesta will have a field day, he really will. Zanetti will have enough on his plate and i'd be surprised if he was anywhere near to be dealing with him. It should really be Luis Enrique's responsibility but if he switched off at all a slide rule pass through that channel and Iniesta is on to it running through on goal.

Keep repeating it, maybe someone buys it. Iniesta having a field day against Zanetti. Right. Sure you would want Lucho there, you have noting going on out wide, it's all rather central shit and I'm gobbling it up.

 

[antohan]

Give me a while to digest what you've gone and done here.

May I point out that your players will be having the exact same problem?

They've been preparing for a completely different rival all week. They thought Iniesta would be running riot at inside left, now they are totally flummoxed.

 

[Skorenzy]

I can link you to wiki in portuguese? That has the most complete and extensive account of his honours, obviously.

Melhor Jogador do Campeonato Italiano: 1985

I think I know what you mean. The Oscar del Calcio was instituted well into the 90s but I'm positive there was a Serie A Player of the Year Award before that. No recollection who awarded it, and I'm not sure if they differentiated Italian and Foreign though. In Spain they certainly did.



Yeah, I just don't like arguing my player's case rolling off honours lists. But that comparison actually says a lot.

Placar started those awards in the early 70s or so and to think the difference between the most decorated one ever (Zico) and Junior is a single Best Player of the Year is quite something. They had comparably long careers in Brazil, for the same team, and one was the sexy creator and goalscorer...

Yes, I'm aware, but just as in his English wiki there's no reference to any source. In the Italian wiki on Júnior there's simply no mention of it at all, hence my skepticism. The Portuguese wiki does contain a link to the RSSSF page of the 1981 SAPotY award in which he came 3rd, and another link to an article in Madrid-based paper ABC about Guerin Sportivo's 1981 World XI which includes him (randomly titled "7th best player in the world").

In any case his consistently highly rated performances in Serie A can be backed up:

1984/85
7,02 Maradona (Napoli)
6,88 Garella (Verona)
6,70 Tricella (Verona), Matteoli (Como)
6,67 Briegel (Verona)
6,65 Fanna (Verona)
6,63 Tancredi (Roma), Wilkins (Milan)
6,62 G. Galli (Fiorentina), Júnior (Torino)
6,57 Souness (Sampdoria)
6,53 Vierchowod (Sampdoria), Hateley (Milan), Di Gennaro (Verona)
6,52 Galvani (Cremonese)
6,50 De Napoli (Avellino), Scanziani (Sampdoria)
6,48 Platini (Juventus), Zenga (Inter)
6,45 Terraneo (Torino), Bagni (Napoli), Agostinelli (Atalanta)
6,43 Vialli (Sampdoria), Collovati (Inter), F. Baresi (Milan), Volpati (Verona).
source: http://football-ratings.blogspot.it/2011/11/memory-lane-serie-1984-85.html

1985/86
6,73 Zaccarelli (Torino)
6,68 Passarella (Fiorentina), Donadoni (Atalanta)
6,65 Bagni (Napoli)
6,63 Tacconi (Juventus)
6,62 Boniek (Roma)
6,58 G. Galli (Fiorentina)
6,55 Ancelotti (Roma), Júnior (Torino)
6,53 De Napoli (Avellino)
6,52 Cabrini (Juventus)
6,50 Tancredi & Nela (Roma), Dirceu (Como), Maradona (Napoli)
6,48 Piotti (Atalanta)
6,47 Massaro (Fiorentina), R. Díaz (Avellino)
6,43 Soldà (Atalanta), Platini (Juventus)
6,42 Pellicanò (Bari), Brio (Juventus)
6,40 Toninho Cerezo (Roma)
6,38 Sabato (Torino)
6,37 Magrin (Atalanta), Barbas (Lecce), Bonini (Juventus), Corradini (Torino), Tassotti (Milan).
source: http://football-ratings.blogspot.it/2011/11/memory-lane-serie-1985-86.html

1986/87
not incl. in the top ratings, even though he fit the criteria, although if I understand correctly it only involves the ratings given by La Republicca for this season.
source: http://football-ratings.blogspot.it/2011/11/memory-lane-serie-1986-87.html

1987/88
6,72 Mancini (Sampdoria)
6,65 F. Baresi (Milan)
6,63 Giannini (Roma), Júnior (Torino) *seems to be a mistake as he was already playing for Pescara at this time
6,60 Maradona (Napoli)
6,57 Vialli (Sampdoria)
6,55 Maldini (Milan)
6,50 Tacconi (Juventus)
6,47 Cravero (Torino), Gullit (Milan)
6,45 Nista (Pisa)
6,43 Drago (Empoli)
6,42 Evani (Milan)
6,40 Zenga (Inter)
6,38 Giuliani (Verona), Brio (Juventus), Bertoni (Avellino)
6,35 Casagrande (Ascoli)
6,33 Bianchi (Cesena), Tassotti (Milan)
6,30 Manfredonia (Roma), Dunga (Pisa).
source: http://football-ratings.blogspot.it/2011/11/memory-lane-serie-1987-88.html

1988/89
6,73 F. Baresi (Milan), Júnior (Pescara)
6,62 Brehme (Inter)
6,61 Zenga (Inter)
6,59 Berti (Inter)
6,56 Dunga (Fiorentina)
6,47 Matthäus (Inter), Careca (Napoli)
6,45 Bergomi (Inter), Völler (Roma)
6,44 Terraneo (Lecce)
6,41 R. Ferri & Serena (Inter), Prytz (Atalanta)
6,39 Mílton (Como)
6,38 Ferrara (Napoli), Matteoli (Inter)
6,36 Vierchowod (Sampdoria), Baroni (Lecce), Manfredonia (Roma)
6,34 Tacconi (Juventus)
6,31 Pazzagli (Ascoli), Pagliuca (Sampdoria)
6,30 Fusi (Napoli)
6,28 Rijkaard (Milan)
6,27 Fortunato (Atalanta)
6,25 Ancelotti (Milan).
source: http://football-ratings.blogspot.it/2011/11/memory-lane-serie-1988-89.html

Says a lot that he was rated this high on a match-to-match basis even when playing for relegation fodder like Pescara.
Re: 1985. My guess is that he is most noted for being world class in 1984/85 because Torino finished 2nd in the league that season and he scored 7 goals, regardless of how his performances actually compare to other seasons in his career.

 

[Cutch]

But you mentioned before how the personal details worked and that left Garrincha completely unattended. You really will need to win pretty much every single one of these headers.

I'll have enough men in the box. Breitner is box to box, Silvas a defensive midfielder, Iniesta might be back. I don't see any sort of advantage for your side aerially whatsoever.

I wonder how Rivera would fit alongside a tiki taka pair, which in turn played a very different brand of football to your German pair. I don't see compatible association football which will deliver what you describe. I see disjointed isolated efforts from very good players all trying to play the way that made them successful in their respective pairs and roles.

All my players suit counter-attacking football, some are quite clearly not just suited but among the very best ever at it.

Rivera is the link man between midfield and attack, a central playmaker. He's got the perfect platform to operate with 3 intelligent and dynamic forward players ahead of him, and a couple of robust midfielders alongside him. Its the perfect blend in midfield and attack. A side that is too tiki taki can become one dimensional as we've seen before. Rummenigge, Breitner and Riveras style all offer something different.

Your destroyer will be hopelessly stranded, always in two minds as to what danger he is covering (surely you are not leaving Facchetti and Joya on Suurbier?????).

Your high line will get raped, no matter how good they were. You really have no idea what pace differential and body strength you are dealing with here. Or you don't want to know.

If Facchetti is marauding down the left then Eusebio presumably won't be dropping deep, why would he. From your attacks on the left Mauro Silva will move out to leave Suurbier with the overlapping runner Joya/Facchetti. Eusebio will presumably be making his way into the box and Breitner will be covering Schuster coming from deep.

Keep repeating it, maybe someone buys it. Iniesta having a field day against Zanetti. Right. Sure you would want Lucho there, you have noting going on out wide, it's all rather central shit and I'm gobbling it up.

So you reckon Zanetti from his midfield role is seemingly taking care of Iniesta. That leaves Rivera, Breitner, Maldini will get forward (unopposed), and wherever Lionel happens to be. Zanetti shouldn't be tracking Iniesta, he's got more than enough on his plate.

 

[antohan]

Getting the first goal is crucial in these games.

I reckon Cutch has been thrown off track there. Many of their attacking moves are now not as easy to execute as they originally thought. When that happened players go to their fundamentals and what works for them, which are completely disparate systems across that personnel.

Makes me winning the first half far more likely and the only way is down from there against my team.

 

[Cutch]

Getting the first goal is crucial in these games.

I reckon Cutch has been thrown off track there. Many of their attacking moves are now not as easy to execute as they originally thought. When that happened players go to their fundamentals and what works for them, which are completely disparate systems across that personnel.

Makes me winning the first half far more likely and the only way is down from there against my team.

Messi is relishing getting a go at Hierro. Rummenigge and Iniesta are flabbergasted at the room afforded to them in behind with Zanetti and Junior embroiled in a midfield battle. They're loving it.

 

[antohan]

Says a lot that he was rated this high on a match-to-match basis even when playing for relegation fodder like Pescara.
Re: 1985. My guess is that he is most noted for being world class in 1984/85 because Torino finished 2nd in the league that season and he scored 7 goals, regardless of how his performances actually compare to other seasons in his career.

Interesting stats those. Week-to-week ratings don't necessarily coincide with the logic behind an award.

Agree 84/85 was the standout because he got Torino to challenge almost single-handedly, be it through him playmaking or scoring or from assists from set pieces (his corners were absolutely phenomenal). He was the complete package for them, they couldn't believe their luck because they originally wanted him as a LB but he insisted he would only move as the midfield playmaker

 

[antohan]

I'll have enough men in the box. Breitner is box to box, Silvas a defensive midfielder, Iniesta might be back. I don't see any sort of advantage for your side aerially whatsoever.

If you assume you will win every single header, which would be quite a stretch even when spectacularly underrating or being oblivious to the threat of Eusebio, Lucho and Joya. Luis Enrique in particular, he was quite prolific aerially, don't think it was defenders just letting him do it.

Rivera is the link man between midfield and attack, a central playmaker. He's got the perfect platform to operate with 3 intelligent and dynamic forward players ahead of him, and a couple of robust midfielders alongside him. Its the perfect blend in midfield and attack. A side that is too tiki taki can become one dimensional as we've seen before. Rummenigge, Breitner and Riveras style all offer something different.

So it's an experiement based on adding up partnerships which are all proven to have excelled at something different. That's what you are essentially saying.

If Facchetti is marauding down the left then Eusebio presumably won't be dropping deep, why would he. From your attacks on the left Mauro Silva will move out to leave Suurbier with the overlapping runner Joya/Facchetti. Eusebio will presumably be making his way into the box and Breitner will be covering Schuster coming from deep.

Wrong presumption. Facchetti marauding is an entirely separate event to what Eusebio is doing. They are both providing me an option for an outball. Mauro can go cover one or the other, but not both, that's the point. Should I just take turns at what I do and let him know in advance so he can move to that area of the pitch to do his destruction work?

He is completely stranded

So you reckon Zanetti from his midfield role is seemingly taking care of Iniesta. That leaves Rivera, Breitner, Maldini will get forward (unopposed), and wherever Lionel happens to be. Zanetti shouldn't be tracking Iniesta, he's got more than enough on his plate.

He is taking care of your main threat which is Iniesta fashioning an opening in between CB and RB. I explained what Zanetti is doing and how he is supported. I worry for your players when you haven't caught on to it yet.

Are Rivera and Messi also getting in on the act? Everyone is going straight at Zanetti to create a 6 vs.1 on him? Looks like your silky attacking moves are rather limited.

 

[antohan]

Messi is relishing getting a go at Hierro. Rummenigge and Iniesta are flabbergasted at the room afforded to them in behind with Zanetti and Junior embroiled in a midfield battle. They're loving it.

What midfield battle? If you have the ball those two are precisely the ones afforded no space. If you don't have the ball it's already at the other end.

 

[Cutch]

If you assume you will win every single header, which would be quite a stretch even when spectacularly underrating or being oblivious to the threat of Eusebio, Lucho and Joya. Luis Enrique in particular, he was quite prolific aerially, don't think it was defenders just letting him do it.

I'm not assuming anything. You've a threat there and i've told you how i've got the players to control it. I havn't even mentioned Gregg, i can't think of a better keeper to have who will be attacking everything coming in the air.

So it's an experiement based on adding up partnerships which are all proven to have excelled at something different. That's what you are essentially saying.

Yes anto thats exactly what a fantasy draft on an internet forum is.

Wrong presumption. Facchetti marauding is an entirely separate event to what Eusebio is doing. They are both providing me an option for an outball. Mauro can go cover one or the other, but not both, that's the point. Should I just take turns at what I do and let him know in advance so he can move to that area of the pitch to do his destruction work?

He is completely stranded

how the hell is he completely stranded, he'll go to the threat that is considered the greatest risk, its common sense. If Facchetti is attacking and Rummenigge isn't tracking, he'll go out to help out on that side. Mauro Silva won't be marking the same player all game, thats what he does, puts out fires. His 2 main briefs will be being the first line of defence when Eusebio drops deep and doubling up with Suurbier when Facchetti marauds.

He is taking care of your main threat which is Iniesta fashioning an opening in between CB and RB. I explained what Zanetti is doing and how he is supported. I worry for your players when you haven't caught on to it yet.

Are Rivera and Messi also getting in on the act? Everyone is going straight at Zanetti to create a 6 vs.1 on him? Looks like your silky attacking moves are rather limited.

I have no idea how you expect Zanetti to do what is being asked of him here. He could do this much easier if he was playing where he should be at right back.

 

[Cutch]

The caf must be all out getting plastered! Very quiet in here.