Decades Chain Draft R1: Physiocrat vs Mustard

Who will win the match?


  • Total voters
    10
  • Poll closed .

Pat_Mustard

I'm so gorgeous they want to put me under arrest!
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A never-nude? I thought he just liked cut-offs.
Physio:________________________________________Pat Mustard:
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PHYSIO:


Tactics – Direct/ Mixed
Formation – 352
Defensive Line – Balanced to High
Marking – Zonal

A relatively offensive 352 looking to keep the ball and create lots of chances. The star men are the strike duo: Pele and Batistuta - perfect and complimentary front two. Pele can clearly create something out of nothing in the space between the lines but will also be provided many through balls by Overath and Cubillas in addition to excellent crossing from the tireless Robertson and Zambrotta. Unlike most draft games both strikers are excellent in the air. Senna will sit in front the of the back three providing protection and a tidy outlet in possession. The back three are ideally suited to the task: Bossis and Ivanovic have experience at full-back and at CB, plus McGrath as a complete CB is ideal as a modern central CB.

MUSTARD:

Formation: 4-3-3

The Star Player:

He's there or thereabouts in any draft pool he's eligible for anyway, but given how perfectly his supernatural peak coincides with his 2010-2014 timeframe, I'm confident that Messi is the best player in this draft. A list of his individual accomplishments in the timeframe (274 goals in 264 matches for Barcelona, three Ballon d'Ors, a World Cup Golden Ball, three time La Liga top scorer and a near-stranglehold on the Liga Best Player Award) goes some way towards illustrating the extraordinary level of performance he reached, but I think I prefer Jorge Valdano's quote:

“Messi is Maradona every day. He has played at the level of Maradona in 1986 for the past five years.”

It was a difficult drafting process but in the end I feel that we've put the necessary structure in place for Messi to thrive.


  • Assembling a midfield that could truly replicate the Xaviesta suffocation-by-possession model was never really on the cards here, and so it proved. My Voronin/Effenberg/Modric trio is a powerful unit in it's own right though, and still slanted towards the possession-based side of the spectrum. Along with the strong seam of technical ability running through the rest of the team, I fancy us to have more possession and territorial dominance here. The technically sublime Chivadze deserves a special mention here, as he'll play an important role in establishing our passing game and building out from the back.
  • Having someone to capitalise on Messi's signature right-to-left through ball seemed a must here, and there's few better than prolific speedster Rensenbrink.
  • His on-pitch synergy with Dani Alves was a striking aspect of Messi's peak years, so it seemed logical to bring in the attacking juggernaut Maicon, who was good enough to supplant Alves in the Brazil team at his peak.

The Selection Headache:

It became clear depressingly early that I was going to get nowhere near many of my initial targets for several positions. Henrik Larsson though, was someone I'd earmarked for the right-forward gig from the start - with his exceptional movement, good work rate and polished approach play I felt he'd provide a reasonable facsimile of the qualities that hitherto centre-forwards David Villa and Samuel Eto'o brought to the table when they played out wide alongside False 9 Messi. I reassessed things as the draft progressed. With Messi who could score 73 goals in a season, the prolific Rensenbrink, and other secondary goal threats dotted throughout the team, I reluctantly concluded that Larsson, who for all his well-roundedness was still primarily a goalscorer, was a bit superfluous. More control of the match and more chance creation seemed a better bet than another heavy goalscorer.

For that reason I've opted for Bernardo Silva instead. A magician with the ball at his feet and possessor of one of the finest first touches I've seen, but it's his tactical understanding and team ethos that sets him apart for me. Capable of playing basically anywhere across the midfield and attack, and having played both as a False 9 and with a False 9, he'll know when to stay wide to draw defenders away from Messi and when to move centrally.

With the opposition's creative outlets to some degree seeming to prefer the left channels of the pitch, Bernardo's incredible engine will be a crucial asset in the defensive phase too. As Pep jizzed a few years back, "He's the guy who's the most beloved in our team, he's one of the most talented players I've ever seen, he can play three of four positions. He knows when he doesn't play good it doesn't matter, he runs the most. You cannot play every three games at the top level but you can run and run."
 
@Physiocrat Had no idea how you'd put all of them together, but this makes total sense position for position. Love the CM/FW combo.
 
Amazing teams - love them both! Gave it to Physio in the end mostly because of the use of Ivanovic, which I think it a great fit in addition to the star player combinations around.
 
Great drafting by both.

Edging towards Pat as his midfield is excellent. Physio has too many playmakers and think no one to do the grunt work. Lack of pace in there too.
I actually think it's a well-working 6/8(-ish)/10 setup, all functions are covered with overlaps.

Overath was also a fast player with very good defensive workrate. (A main reason why he kept Netzer out of the NT most of the time.) In possession he loved to build up from deep, which I find a fitting #8 element to complement Cubillas's attacking game.
 
Great drafting by both.

Edging towards Pat as his midfield is excellent. Physio has too many playmakers and think no one to do the grunt work. Lack of pace in there too.

I think you are underestimating the work rate of Overath. Also I have physical peak Pele who was hardly slow at all.

On the playmaker point, whilst I have 3 creative players neither are a ball hog. Positionally Overath is similar to Didi who linked well with Pele. Cubillas was more of a creative forward than a 10 so overall I see a lot of synergy there.
 
I appreciate the decision by Pat to drop Larsson and play Bernado but the constant off the ball running needed to allow Messi to play his alien role means I don't think you'll get the best out of Bernado - I think actually Larsson might be better suited even though he would have to forgo his goalscoring.

Midfield is really nice especially with attacking full-backs on both sides.

Do you have anymore on Chivadze? I don't know much about him.
 
I actually think it's a well-working 6/8(-ish)/10 setup, all functions are covered with overlaps.

Overath was also a fast player with very good defensive workrate. (A main reason why he kept Netzer out of the NT most of the time.) In possession he loved to build up from deep, which I find a fitting #8 element to complement Cubillas's attacking game.
I think you are underestimating the work rate of Overath. Also I have physical peak Pele who was hardly slow at all.

On the playmaker point, whilst I have 3 creative players neither are a ball hog. Positionally Overath is similar to Didi who linked well with Pele. Cubillas was more of a creative forward than a 10 so overall I see a lot of synergy there.

I doubt you'd want Oversth also doing ball recovery duties. He had a young Beckenbauer and then Bonhof in midfield who were doing the B2B role.

I don't see the need for 3 players there. Either Senna or Overath replaced with a defensive player would be more balanced imo.

Voronin, Effenberg and Modric is a top notch midfield.
 
I doubt you'd want Oversth also doing ball recovery duties. He had a young Beckenbauer and then Bonhof in midfield who were doing the B2B role.

I don't see the need for 3 players there. Either Senna or Overath replaced with a defensive player would be more balanced imo.

I am for having as many creative players as possible as long as they work together which I think they do here - they don't step on each others toes. It is reasonably attacking but I have a back 3, DM and two tireless wing backs. It's not much different from having an attacking 433 and a CM/AM in midfield.
 
A bit of counter pressing, if it fails to produce a turnover drop back into a 352 shape with a moderate line and then engage in a half-court press.
Cheers. If you had said "aggressive high pressure on Jennings", that may have been my vote already :wenger: (pending a reply from Pat on his on-the-ball skills).
I doubt you'd want Oversth also doing ball recovery duties. He had a young Beckenbauer and then Bonhof in midfield who were doing the B2B role.
But he did exactly that routinely, he tracked back, plugged holes, covered for others, defended aggressively. Plus, Senna is a deep midfielder and much less attacking-happy than Beckenbauer and Bonhof.

I've made some posts on this a few years back, first one is with video evidence (and I've corrected stats a bit):
1. 1971 DFB cup final against Bayern
The only other Overath match compilation I know of in addition to the one already posted in the match thread.



Here's a list of Overath's defensive actions in that video, including Opta style stats:
0:09 interception + shot

0:18 tackle (unsucc., foul)

1:04 clearance after corner

1:27 interception

1:59 tackle (succ.) in counterpressing

2:15 tackle (unsucc.)

2:19 clearance + interception in the box

2:46 tackle (succ.) & struggle for the ball while down

3:14 blocked pass

3:51 tries to block a shot

4:36 intercepts a cross + pass

4:43 serious hustle as last man in the box + clearance

4:52 fights for loose ball at LB position, fouled

5:01 ball recovery in CM

5:37 blocks cross at LB position

6:15 tackle (succ.) in CM

7:05 tackle (succ.) + pass

7:22 picks up Müller's run & stops advance

7:51 secures loose ball at own box

--------------------------

Stats after 90 of 120 minutes:

tackles (att./succ.)....6 / 4

interceptions................4

blocks...........................2

clearances....................3

recoveries.....................2

So by my count (some instances are always matters of opinion) that's 17 direct actions against the ball + some more that don't feature statistically. No footage of overtime exists except for a short highlight reel, which means complete game stats were likely higher.

2. 1974 WC second round match against Yugoslavia

No compilation, but the game can be watched on Footballia; time marks refer to that video. I made this one before I found the video above. Since it has more focus on movement (which is usually missing in match compilations), I thought I still post it for a fuller picture.

I have noted down Overath's behaviour against the ball during the first 20 minutes of the game as I see it.
High pressing
0:05 pressing run right after kick off YUG

4:35 YUG defender dispossesses Hölzenbein (?), Overath goes into counter pressing, winning a corner

Positional defending inside defensive formation
0:45 - 1:05 closes down space / passing lanes around ball carrier to protect the center; increasingly moves closer

3:35 - 4:05 defends up front with Müller - shifts position to limit ball carrier's options - finally attempts a tackle, opponent commits a bad pass - then a short dash to help out pressurised teammates playing out of the back (not needed because Müller gets there first)

7:50 defensive position close to the ball in half-left CM/DM - collects the ball after Vogts's tackle

10:50 interception in RMF, chases loose ball, tackle and ball retention

15:10 blocks a long ball in RDM and continues to cover that zone

Tracking runs
6:58 long defensive sprint from CM into the box to help containing Acimovic after long ball (note the pace on that run)

8:40 falls back into midfield during defensive transition - tracks Acimovic's run after long ball at 8:55, but leaves him for Beckenbauer

9:45 tracks back into his own box after free kick situation

14:00 casually shadows Acimovic, makes sure he can't move forward uncovered

14:50 defensive sprint and duel in RMF, prevents Acimovic from breaking through on the wing, fouls the player in the process. Overath pissed off, yelling at the ref

19:00 man marks Acimovic's backwards run into the Yugoslav half, then tracks his deep sprint towards Germany's box

Defensive transition
6:40 moves back into central midfield, scanning the situation

13:40 - 13:50 far away from the ball during the counter, jogs back into CM

16:00 - 16:35 same as above, starts to get active once behind the ball

19:15 covers the Yugoslav ball carrier on the left wing during a counter; reduces passing angles towards the center with his positioning

Miscellaneous
note the pace on the offensive run at 1:32

stays back in DM to provide cover for Beckenbauer's forward movement at 19:40

Outside the timeframe, but Overath's defending on the counter at 22:45 is practically identical with the one at 19:15

These 20 minutes feature many characteristics of Overath in and out of possession. Since the focus here is on defense: We see him defending inside the opposition half, in CM, back into his own box, and on the wings; at the top of the defensive structure as well as deeper inside; he tracks runs (seems to part time man mark the Yugoslav #10, Acimovic); his pace and acceleration are visible in some situations, as are his general determination and situational awareness.

He always seeks to get involved in offense and defense, and positions himself flexibly and intelligently according to each situation and the game's structure. If the relevant opponents are covered, he positions himself in space, within reach of the situation; if the situation requires him to intervene, he does.
 
Cheers. If you had said "aggressive high pressure on Jennings", that may have been my vote already :wenger: (pending a reply from Pat on his on-the-ball skills).

Good enough to score from inside his own penalty area :D



Beyond that, he seemed to have a good throw on him, but I've never seen or read anything notable about his on-the-ball skills. Very much a typical product of the pre-back pass rule era I imagine in all honesty.
 
Beyond that, he seemed to have a good throw on him, but I've never seen or read anything notable about his on-the-ball skills. Very much a typical product of the pre-back pass rule era I imagine in all honesty.
Yeah, that's what I saw from him too. I'd have old school keepers like him as the achilles heel of a build-from-the-back team vs aggressive pressing, tbh. Since Physio made no point of pressurising him specifically, it's probably okay. But in such a setup, I've come round to only really buy a modern keeper and 10 outfield players who are good to great on the ball. There's only a small number of oldie keepers where I'm sure they could play that role. (But also many I don't really know, of course.)
 
Yeah, that's what I saw from him too. I'd have old school keepers like him as the achilles heel of a build-from-the-back team vs aggressive pressing, tbh. Since Physio made no point of pressurising him specifically, it's probably okay. But in such a setup, I've come round to only really buy a modern keeper and 10 outfield players who are good to great on the ball. There's only a small number of oldie keepers where I'm sure they could play that role. (But also many I don't really know, of course.)

I've came around to that way of thinking too, and this is the second draft in a row that I'm not entirely happy with my choice of keeper given that I've prioritised building a team that is comfortable in possession. I'm not as bothered this time as this was supposed to be a more flexible, Zidane or Ancelotti-esque modern setup rather than one that lived or died on high line and/or extreme possession. It's still not ideal though.
 
I've came around to that way of thinking too, and this is the second draft in a row that I'm not entirely happy with my choice of keeper given that I've prioritised building a team that is comfortable in possession. I'm not as bothered this time as this was supposed to be a more flexible, Zidane or Ancelotti-esque modern setup rather than one that lived or died on high line and/or extreme possession. It's still not ideal though.
All of this said, Chivadze has really been a revelation for me. Watched Sjor's comp a few days back and he's perfect on the ball for this side.
 
All of this said, Chivadze has really been a revelation for me. Watched Sjor's comp a few days back and he's perfect on the ball for this side.

God bless Bepo! I've aborted two all-touches for Chivadze as I'm just too blind and incompetent to do it for a centre back without either crystal-clear footage or English commentary, neither of which I had. I'll post Sjor's here when I've put together my answer to Physio's question about him.
 
I appreciate the decision by Pat to drop Larsson and play Bernado but the constant off the ball running needed to allow Messi to play his alien role means I don't think you'll get the best out of Bernado - I think actually Larsson might be better suited even though he would have to forgo his goalscoring.

Midfield is really nice especially with attacking full-backs on both sides.

Do you have anymore on Chivadze? I don't know much about him.

He first caught my eye ages ago when I was making a Liam Brady video and he was the one player that really stood out for an otherwise below-par USSR team that included the likes of Blokhin, Demyanenko and Bessonov. He was the lynchpin of a Dinamo Tbilisi team that dumped Liverpool out of the European Cup in 1979, and subsequently won the European Cup Winner's Cup in 1981, mauling West Ham en route and captivating many British fans in the process. He looked astonishingly good technically to me, and the fact that he captained the USSR for half of his international appearances reflects positively on his leadership skills and standing in the squad - I might be talking out of my arse here but I would have thought the captaincy would generally be the preserve of one of the Dynamo Kiev lot or the Moscow-based players. There's a great article about that team on the Guardian here and I'll post a few excerpts now.

A startled British public was introduced to this Tbilisi side when they played Liverpool in the first round of the European Cup in 1979-80. Drawing the recent two-time winners and favourites offered the most daunting of debuts in Europe’s premier club competition, but at no stage of either leg did the Georgian club look remotely cowed by their heavyweight opponents. Only finishing that fell short of their elevated levels of technical play allowed Liverpool to edge the Anfield leg 2-1. Tbilisi’s promise in the first leg was fully realised in the return as they eased to a 3-0 victory in a packed Boris Paichadze National Stadium.

Their performance that afternoon was resoundingly accomplished. Tbilisi’s approach harmoniously blended the best of two seemingly conflicting playing styles: the hard-running, quick-passing game typical of Russian and Ukrainian teams and the more traditional Georgian and Armenian game based around individual skill and self-expression.

The romp started with an opening Tbilisi goal that was so cartoonishly good that it might have been thought of as too far-fetched had it been sketched out for Roy Race himself.

After a succession of rapid one-touch passes, Aleksandr Chivadze collected a knockdown 10 yards inside his own half, surged forward into West Ham territory and let fly from 30 yards with a dipping drive that sailed over the head of a flat-footed Phil Parkes. That’s Aleksandr Chivadze the central defender by the way, albeit a central defender with a greater mastery of the ball than any creative outfield British player I had seen. For someone used to watching agricultural British centre-halves thrash, blooter and whack footballs around a pitch, seeing this physically unassuming sweeper urbanely caress, massage and tease the ball into doing his bidding was a revelation.

Thankfully Sjor did the hard yards previously with an all-touches video that demonstrates his qualities nicely, as I gave up on mine:



I did put together a very quick compilation of various goals and offensive actions that I found:



Basically, I felt that we needed quality in the build up play if we were going to maximise Messi's opportunites on the ball, and in that context Chivadze looked a fine fit.

Tagging @Šjor Bepo @harms @antohan @Demyanenko_square_jaw for any observations they have about him, as I think they're the only ones that have previously mentioned him on here.
 
I appreciate the decision by Pat to drop Larsson and play Bernado but the constant off the ball running needed to allow Messi to play his alien role means I don't think you'll get the best out of Bernado - I think actually Larsson might be better suited even though he would have to forgo his goalscoring.

Midfield is really nice especially with attacking full-backs on both sides.

Do you have anymore on Chivadze? I don't know much about him.

As regards Bernardo, there were a few factors at play there. Firstly, Gio once made a very interesting point that perhaps the 'false' aspect of False 9 Messi is slightly overemphasised:

Going off on a tangent, but I don't think there was much false about Messi as a #9. The first year or two he dropped into the hole to help service proper wide goal threats like Eto'o, Henry and then Villa. But really when he hit those massive numbers around 2011-13 or so, he was a #9 first and foremost. When he scored 73 goals in 2011/12, noboby else got more than 15. There was nothing false about his role there.

And when you watch his goals from that freak 73 goal season you see his point. Now there's myriad examples there of him dropping off to create and then getting back into the box to score, but also plenty of more traditional poacher-type goals. In that context I think I'm onto something by choosing to emphasise more creativity over Larsson's supreme movement and penalty box instincts.

Secondly, while I and probably everyone else mostly associates this version of Messi with Villa and Pedro as the wide attackers, he also racked up a lot of playing time with the likes of Alexis Sanchez (prone to be being an annoying greedy ball-hog) and Fabregas (great player but those winger runs just didn't come naturally to him) in the wide roles. And his productivity didn't seem to waver. With Bernardo's energy, selflessness and intelligence, he'll make a better stab at providing those runs than, say, Fabregas was able to.

Thirdly, when Barca slipped up in big matches during this timeframe, I felt some of their undoing was an understandable over-reliance on Messi to provide the magic. Adding another attacker with outstanding creativity and aptitude in 1v1s mitigates against that problem in a similar way that Barca did by subsequently signing Neymar.

Lastly, the guy just doesn't stop running and I feel I need his workrate to establish an edge here.

theanalyst.com said:
No player in the Premier League has covered more distance per 90 minutes than Bernardo, who is averaging an impressive 11.90km per 90 minutes. As well as being the league leader, he is the only Manchester City player in the top ten for this statistic, further showing just how much of the workload Bernardo is happy to take on.



Both defences will struggle to cope here if they're under the cosh for sustained periods, and Bernardo will play a big part on both sides of the equation; brilliant technical quality to improve our ball-retention, and arguably the most freakish engine on the pitch to help with our ball-recovery.
 
Great posts @Pat_Mustard

I will check out the vids and try and find a Messi all-touch (ish) comp from his crazy 73 goal season.

Cheers mate. I love his famous 5 goal blitz of Leverkusen from that season, as it shows a bit of everything really. The first and third goals were typical mobile CF goals, just running off the shoulder of the defender and latching onto a pass, and the second was peeling off to the right-side edge of the penalty area before unfurling one of those trademark curlers into the left corner. His playmaking reportoire was on display too though, particularly as the match progressed and he just seemed to be enjoying himself, as he dropped way back, even behind Busquets on occasion. Which somewhat contradicts my point admittedly but still makes for great viewing:



I love this one too. A routine stomping by Barca, and Messi's dribbling and vision were on display too, but what really stood out here was the way he busted a gut to get into scoring positions in the box:

 
I can fully understand Pat's reasoning on Bernardo at RW. For style reasons I'd have preferred Larsson with Bernardo/Modric in CM (and I just love Larsson and think he'd be great with Messi). But it's not criticism or anything, Bernardo at RW is a brilliant choice with Messi too. As for the team as a whole, I also appreciate building a Messi team a little away from the Pep formula, which has maybe become too much of an orthodoxy.

Both defenses will suffer in this game, no doubt. The goats are in a perfect spot, Rensenbrink and Batistuta are well-fitting partners & "secondary" threats, Bernardo & Cubillas round it all off nicely.

I prefer Physio's central defense (Ivanovic would have more recognition as a modern CB if Mou hadn't misused him as a negative FB all the time), but Voronin evens it out. Even if he got badly rinsed by Pele - but who wasn't, really.

No idea yet if I'll vote on this, probably not.
 
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I felt Pat Mustard's XI had more tactical and technical chemistry, helping to control the game, get the ball into the right spaces, and pull players out of position:
- Rensenbrink an elite wing-forward option alongside F9-Messi.
- Dribbling/ball control/passing harmony between the Voronin-Modric-Bernardo-Messi axis. Magical manipulation of space and time.
- Solid centreback partnership: intelligent ball-playing centrehalf (Chivadze) paired with a formidable stopper (Buchwald)
- Added aggression and direct passing with Effenberg, helping to control the middle
- Pair of complete two-way fullbacks
 
Physio better team, Pat much better posts. Physio wyd have won my vote.
 
Draw is the right result for me. How does it get decided?
 
@Pat_Mustard I had a watch of the videos. Chivadze certainly looks smooth in possession and will distribute well from deep. I'm still not sure on that version of Messi being more of a 9 than false 9. He drops deep quite a lot even in the Leverkusen game. Also there is often a right forward ahead of him.
 
McGrath - Voronin drinking contest.
First not to be found dead in a ditch…
 
@Pat_Mustard I had a watch of the videos. Chivadze certainly looks smooth in possession and will distribute well from deep. I'm still not sure on that version of Messi being more of a 9 than false 9. He drops deep quite a lot even in the Leverkusen game. Also there is often a right forward ahead of him.

Good game mate. Aye, I'd rephrase/downgrade that statement quite a bit in retrospect - clearly, even in that Vallecano video where he at his most goal-thirsty, dropping deep and wide was still a more prominent part of his performance than it would be for your typical CF. I might elaborate more later but it's WAG-hunting time now!
 
Mustard wins
 
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What a dumb way to decide a draft game.
 
What a dumb way to decide a draft game.

compared to previous genius ways(randomizers and luck penalties).....
Tried to get a neutral committee to decide a winner but people didnt want to do that.