Decades Chain Draft: QF - Big Dunk vs Pat Mustard

[Pat_Mustard]

BIG DUNK:-------------------------------PAT MUSTARD:

BIG DUNK:

- A strike partnership that oozes tenacity, work-rate, creativity, killer instinct and technical brilliance. Villa and Tevez possess the versatility, pace, movement and team work to thrive in my 4-2-2-2 redux. Their ability to press from the front, operate wide and drop deep allows the attack to be dynamic and fluid.

- Hazard and Figo are my two dribbling wizards, who at most times are unplayable. Figo the perfect classic winger: crosses, assists and complete mastery running with the ball. Hazard is also deadly with one-on-one scenarios or slalom runs against multiple opponents: both a playmaker and deadly finisher. Both midfielders will be encouraged to attack their wing, cut in or change flanks. Our front two will create space for our wingers, and be grateful recipients of Hazard and Figo's passes.

- Falcao and Tigana represent my team's ideals perfectly: the marriage of technique, tenacity and football IQ. Both ballers, able to control the game from deep, break up play, bring the ball forward with grace and even contribute in the attacking third.

- Irwin, the ever-consistent and complete fullback will overlap Hazard. Bergomi, an elite defensive fullback holds the fort behind Figo, and stays back when Beckenbauer moves forward. Campbell is a formidable centreback: very strong, fast and dominant in the air. Mazurkiewicz's amazing reflexes and shot-stopping ability cemented him as Yashin's natural successor.

- It is a fantasy to have Der Kaiser combine with the players in my team. Beckenbauer will maximise the influence and offensive ability of my midfielders and attackers. Irwin, Campbell and Bergomi represent the non-sexy Mr. Reliables, the solid defenders needed for that back line. Beckenbauer will be the heartbeat and ringleader of the passing carousel: full of elite playmakers and dribblers, boasting fluid and intelligent movement. We can both stretch our opponent, get in behind them or pass through them.


PAT MUSTARD:

Formation: Possession-orientated 4-3-3 with False 9

• Lionel Messi's supernatural peak coincides perfectly with his 2010-14 timeframe, and as such he has a compelling case to be considered the best player in the draft. We've placed him in a familiar role and formation in a possession-orientated team. There's a good seam of technical quality throughout the side, and in Modric and Bernardo he'll have like-minded technical virtuosos to bounce off. Crucially, the prolific speedster Rob Rensenbrink is an ideal candidate to capitalise on Messi's signature right-to-left through ball.
• New signings Paolo Maldini and Paul McGrath are parachuted into the team to bulletproof the defence. Maldini, in particular, is a timely addition as there's no better candidate to subdue Dunk's star winger Luis Figo.
• Regrettably, there's still no place for Henrik Larsson, partly as a concession to the strength of Dunk's other flank of Irwin and Hazard. Bernardo's freakish work rate and engine could potentially be a big factor in quelling that threat. A welcome bonus on top of his formidable range of qualities in possession.
• Effenberg retains his place too, as we seek to establish control over the middle of the park. He's nominally positioned on the left side of the midfield this match as we'll want him competing in the air against the much smaller Tigana if and when Jennings is forced to punt it long under pressure from Dunk's forwards.

 

[Pat_Mustard]

Good luck @BIG DUNK !

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

Not voting on this one. Drab game, doesn't seem like any changes with personnel let alone tactically, nothing to debate, boring.

 

[Pat_Mustard]

Not voting on this one. Drab game, doesn't seem like any changes with personnel let alone tactically, nothing to debate, boring.

I thought I'd done better than anybody in that reinforcement round with Maldini and McGrath! Maldini in particular makes for a significantly more cohesive defence, counterbalancing the expansive ball-playing CB Chivadze and the ultra-attacking Maicon on the other side. Not to mention being the ideal man for the job in his main individual assignment against (probably) Dunk's standout final third threat Figo.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

I thought I'd done better than anybody in that reinforcement round with Maldini and McGrath! Maldini in particular makes for a significantly more cohesive defence, counterbalancing the expansive ball-playing CB Chivadze and the ultra-attacking Maicon on the other side. Not to mention being the ideal man for the job in his main individual assignment against (probably) Dunk's standout final third threat Figo.

Good point but unlike most if not all other drafts, I don't like your team this draft. Never liked Effenberg there in that setup, in my earlier research, I felt this was post peak Voronin (I might be wrong) and Bernardo is not my cup of tea for the RW role with Messi.

Dunk would have won my vote if this was a R1 game and perhaps he played Kaiser on the left and Falcao right, but he was definitely closer to winning my vote.

Will stick with the draw as it seemed fair to me.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Why drop Amoros rather than play Maldini as CB?

 

[Pat_Mustard]

Good point but unlike most if not all other drafts, I don't like your team this draft. Never liked Effenberg there in that setup, in my earlier research, I felt this was post peak Voronin (I might be wrong) and Bernardo is not my cup of tea for the RW role with Messi.

Dunk would have won my vote if this was a R1 game and perhaps he played Kaiser on the left and Falcao right, but he was definitely closer to winning my vote.

Will stick with the draw as it seemed fair to me.

Fair do's mate. I'm planning on posting a bit about Bernardo later so I'll address that then. As far as I know Voronin's prime was cut short by a car accident in summer 1968 when he had just turned 29, so I felt I had him more or less at his zenith here, although his peak straddles both 1960-64 and 1965-69 timeframes really. On Effenberg, I'd concede that he was well down my list for that role, and he's next in line to be replaced if I make it through here (haven't voted yet so I have no idea if that's on the cards or not).

 

[Pat_Mustard]

Why drop Amoros rather than play Maldini as CB?

A few reasons. Firstly, although he was top-notch across several of the five-season time frames, 1990-94 was probably his clearest sustained peak in terms of team accomplishments and individual accolades*, and he made the overwhelming bulk of his appearances at LB then. Secondly, with an adventurous libero-type like Chivadze in the middle of defence, I felt a LB who could credibly tuck into the centre made for a much better defensive shape. Lastly, I was trying to set myself up for the next reinforcement round, where I knew I'd pick first if I made it through. feck knows if that'll work out as planned even if I make it through here, but I felt I might as well roll the dice given how strong some of the remaining teams are.

*
AC Milan

• Serie A: 1991–92, 1992–93, 1993–94,
• Supercoppa Italiana: 1992, 1993, 1994
• European Cup/UEFA Champions League: 1989–90, 1993–94
• European/UEFA Super Cup: 1989, 1990
• Intercontinental Cup: 1989, 1990

Italy

• FIFA World Cup runner-up: 1994; third place 1990

Individual

• FIFA World Cup All-Star Team: 1990, 1994
• Ballon d'Or: Third place 1994
• World Soccer Player of the Year: 1994
• El País European Player of the Year: 1994
• UNICEF European Footballer of the Season: 1993–94

 

[Šjor Bepo]

Going with Dunk, also not a fan of Effenberg in this system nor Maldini as LB(in this specific system id use him only as CB). Bernardo is fine but far from ideal, if you really wanted to use Bernardo you needed another runner of the ball next to Modric, someone like Neeskens would be great there.

 

[Pat_Mustard]

Going with Dunk, also not a fan of Effenberg in this system nor Maldini as LB(in this specific system id use him only as CB). Bernardo is fine but far from ideal, if you really wanted to use Bernardo you needed another runner of the ball next to Modric, someone like Neeskens would be great there.

How so? Do you mean as a goal threat that will attack the penalty area without the ball? That's been quite a strong aspect of his game in this time frame from what I've watched, and his goal record would suggest that too:

I've been impressed with his ball-carrying too. Nimble feet for such a big unit, and he was a bit of a free-kick magnet as he was so hard to stop when he got going. What disappointed me was his inconsistent application. Even allowing for the direct style of team he played for (thinking Gladbach here particularly but it stands for Bayern too) he just wasn't involved to the extent I'd want from an elite CM. His defending was a bit hit and miss too, as he wasn't particularly energetic or mobile in the defensive phase. That's not really much of an issue here as he's part of an otherwise highly hard working and mobile midfield three, up against a two man midfield.

 

[Pat_Mustard]

FFS that image is basically a blur. 47 goals across the 5 year time frame, of which 8 were penalties and 2 free kicks. That's not a bad return given that all but one season was spent in an unremarkable Gladbach team.

 

[Pat_Mustard]

No time for a lengthy post but I will leave this article here from roughly this time last year:

https://www.skysports.com/football/...ardiola-but-what-is-it-that-makes-him-so-good

as it does a nice job of illustrating his impact both offensively and against the ball.

And a compilation from this season where he does a bit of everything from his RW starting position, including an out-to-in off the ball run that leads to him scoring.

 

[Pythagoras]

I did not want to change my dynamic front two. Two absolute menaces. A strike partnership that serves my 4-2-2-2 so well. Pat's back line and goalkeeper won't have a moment's rest or time on the ball to exact their play-from-the-back style:


A reminder of the quality of (#9) David Villa (05-09)




Tevez's name may have a sour taste for many, but when paired with another forward both his value and his partner's is maximised: he is the perfect foil for David Villa. Tevez (10-14) was a monster:

 

[Pythagoras]

Having Messi as false 9, the importance of his wingforwards (the Pedro's/Villa's) become increased (workrate, space-creating, width and off-ball movement, even goalscoring output), in Bergomi I think I can nullify the silky Rensenbrink (Bernardo won't be the Pedro-like facilitator/finisher on the other flank, he'll be dropping deeper to combine with Modric):

Bergomi (85-89), perhaps the toughest defensive fullback in the draft, and Beckenbauer's ideal defensive foil on the right:





Paulo Roberto Falcão (75-79) Internacional-version was the best midfielder in Brazil and the world at that time. Partnered up with midfield extraordinaire Tigana (80-84) - not only a great disruptor but a fabulous footballer too. This duo will combine with Beckenbauer, Hazard and Figo (I do feel we will actually have more of the ball than Pat, which is less optimal for a team with Messi in it):

 

[Gio]

Tough one to separate tbh.

Pat made the biggest upgrades, but Bergomi and Beckenbauer are probably as good as it gets at keeping some sort of tabs on Rensenbrink and Messi. I like Pat's front 3 as Bernardo Silva can play just about anywhere and would hit it off with Messi, with Maicon overlapping to make the flank work. But without a natural play-stretcher to push the defensive line back, it puts pressure on the midfield to overload. I reckon Effenberg and Modric are fairly adaptable to most set-ups, but the later 90s version of Effenberg didn't seem as vertical and dynamic as the early-to-mid version (mainly going on what I saw of Bayern where his movement was more horizontal, but correct me if it's not a fair reflection of his time at Monchengladbach?). And I think that midfield could do with someone popping into the spaces between Dunk's defence and midfield, testing the off-the-ball game of Falcao and Tigana.

 

[Gio]

@Pat_Mustard Surprised you didn't use Larsson. Think the team could do with someone probing in behind and it's hard to envisage anyone better at finishing off Messi's chances. Would've been tempted to drop Bernardo into midfield, Larsson at no9 and then Messi off the right / inside-right.

 

[Šjor Bepo]

How so? Do you mean as a goal threat that will attack the penalty area without the ball? That's been quite a strong aspect of his game in this time frame from what I've watched, and his goal record would suggest that too:

I've been impressed with his ball-carrying too. Nimble feet for such a big unit, and he was a bit of a free-kick magnet as he was so hard to stop when he got going. What disappointed me was his inconsistent application. Even allowing for the direct style of team he played for (thinking Gladbach here particularly but it stands for Bayern too) he just wasn't involved to the extent I'd want from an elite CM. His defending was a bit hit and miss too, as he wasn't particularly energetic or mobile in the defensive phase. That's not really much of an issue here as he's part of an otherwise highly hard working and mobile midfield three, up against a two man midfield.

Yeah, as a runner without the ball and a proven press player. Goals are just a bonus, not that relevant but that movement that creates space for Messi is key.

 

[Pat_Mustard]

@Pat_Mustard Surprised you didn't use Larsson. Think the team could do with someone probing in behind and it's hard to envisage anyone better at finishing off Messi's chances. Would've been tempted to drop Bernardo into midfield, Larsson at no9 and then Messi off the right / inside-right.

I felt I had to play Messi centrally given the 2010-14 time frame, but I should have still played Larsson off the right in a Villa/Eto'o-type role, and Bernardo in place of Effenberg. I got cold feet about that largely because Henrik didn't play out wide at all in 2000-04 as far as I know, but it was clearly within his capabilitities to do so IMO, certainly with a one-man flank like Maicon behind him.

In retrospect Effenberg was a poor, panicky pick - a bit of an ill-fit in a crucial position, and in combination with having Buchwald made it very difficult to plan for any Bayern/German upgrades. The plan for this next reinforcement round was gambling on Zidane being available, and picking a modern-ish GK:

with the final upgrade if I'd made it that far being Bene or Lato in for Larsson - more botched initial drafting there as I should have picked one of them instead of Jennings from the get-go.

 

[Pat_Mustard]

Well played @BIG DUNK . It's quite something to look that strong at this stage with no reinforcements!

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

I felt I had to play Messi centrally given the 2010-14 time frame, but I should have still played Larsson off the right in a Villa/Eto'o-type role, and Bernardo in place of Effenberg. I got cold feet about that largely because Henrik didn't play out wide at all in 2000-04 as far as I know, but it was clearly within his capabilitities to do so IMO, certainly with a one-man flank like Maicon behind him.

In retrospect Effenberg was a poor, panicky pick - a bit of an ill-fit in a crucial position, and in combination with having Buchwald made it very difficult to plan for any Bayern/German upgrades. The plan for this next reinforcement round was gambling on Zidane being available, and picking a modern-ish GK:

with the final upgrade if I'd made it that far being Bene or Lato in for Larsson - more botched initial drafting there as I should have picked one of them instead of Jennings from the get-go.

Zidane Messi I have never seen here before. That would have lead to some nice discussion.

 

[Pat_Mustard]

Zidane Messi I have never seen here before. That would have lead to some nice discussion.

It seems kind of incredible that they'd never have been paired up before but I can't recall seeing it either.

 

[General_Elegancia]

I felt I had to play Messi centrally given the 2010-14 time frame, but I should have still played Larsson off the right in a Villa/Eto'o-type role, and Bernardo in place of Effenberg. I got cold feet about that largely because Henrik didn't play out wide at all in 2000-04 as far as I know, but it was clearly within his capabilitities to do so IMO, certainly with a one-man flank like Maicon behind him.

In retrospect Effenberg was a poor, panicky pick - a bit of an ill-fit in a crucial position, and in combination with having Buchwald made it very difficult to plan for any Bayern/German upgrades. The plan for this next reinforcement round was gambling on Zidane being available, and picking a modern-ish GK:

with the final upgrade if I'd made it that far being Bene or Lato in for Larsson - more botched initial drafting there as I should have picked one of them instead of Jennings from the get-go.

Maldini during that period was a pretty offensive/balanced-minded fullback with great defensive discipline/skills. He wasn't that great in crossing ability but excellent in making intelligent runs and team-play. I could see him dovetailing nicely with Rensenbrink similar to the Krol-Rensenbrink combo that did it first( Krol and Maldini shared a lot of similar characteristics in both styles of playing and looks).

 

[Pat_Mustard]

Maldini during that period was a pretty offensive/balanced-minded fullback with great defensive discipline/skills. He wasn't that great in crossing ability but excellent in making intelligent runs and team-play. I could see him dovetailing nicely with Rensenbrink similar to the Krol-Rensenbrink combo that did it first( Krol and Maldini shared a lot of similar characteristics in both styles of playing and looks).

There's a strange abundance of handsome bastards among the greatest LBs now that you mention it. Not only Maldini and Krol, but Facchetti and Cabrini too!

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Flaws aside, how did peak Messi lose? He was one man team.

 

[Himannv]

I felt I had to play Messi centrally given the 2010-14 time frame, but I should have still played Larsson off the right in a Villa/Eto'o-type role, and Bernardo in place of Effenberg. I got cold feet about that largely because Henrik didn't play out wide at all in 2000-04 as far as I know, but it was clearly within his capabilitities to do so IMO, certainly with a one-man flank like Maicon behind him.

In retrospect Effenberg was a poor, panicky pick - a bit of an ill-fit in a crucial position, and in combination with having Buchwald made it very difficult to plan for any Bayern/German upgrades. The plan for this next reinforcement round was gambling on Zidane being available, and picking a modern-ish GK:

with the final upgrade if I'd made it that far being Bene or Lato in for Larsson - more botched initial drafting there as I should have picked one of them instead of Jennings from the get-go.

That looks a much better team I think and if you had kept Amoros it would have been even better. I'd have voted for that for sure.

 

[Pythagoras]

I felt I had to play Messi centrally given the 2010-14 time frame, but I should have still played Larsson off the right in a Villa/Eto'o-type role, and Bernardo in place of Effenberg. I got cold feet about that largely because Henrik didn't play out wide at all in 2000-04 as far as I know, but it was clearly within his capabilitities to do so IMO, certainly with a one-man flank like Maicon behind him.

In retrospect Effenberg was a poor, panicky pick - a bit of an ill-fit in a crucial position, and in combination with having Buchwald made it very difficult to plan for any Bayern/German upgrades. The plan for this next reinforcement round was gambling on Zidane being available, and picking a modern-ish GK:

with the final upgrade if I'd made it that far being Bene or Lato in for Larsson - more botched initial drafting there as I should have picked one of them instead of Jennings from the get-go.

Bene would be perfect! (And Bernardo alongside Modric)
Wellplayed.

 

[Synco]

@Pat_Mustard
Thought you had much of it down in the draft phase already, for my taste at least. A Modric/Bernardo CM with Larsson at RW would have been awesome for Messi. That would leave Buchwald & Jennings as the slightly awkward fits, but (probably) easily upgradeable ones. Agree with others that Maldini would have been a natural (and plain fantastic) CB option in such a team.

Still voted for you, as I think a 442 with Hazard + double 8 is too open defensively, but otherwise like Dunk's team a lot too.

 

[Pat_Mustard]

That looks a much better team I think and if you had kept Amoros it would have been even better. I'd have voted for that for sure.

I had to drop Amoros as part of my gamble to eventually get my mitts on Zidane unfortunately.

@Pat_Mustard
Thought you had much of it down in the draft phase already, for my taste at least. A Modric/Bernardo CM with Larsson at RW would have been awesome for Messi. That would leave Buchwald & Jennings as the slightly awkward fits, but (probably) easily upgradeable ones. Agree with others that Maldini would have been a natural (and plain fantastic) CB option in such a team.

Still voted for you, as I think a 442 with Hazard + double 8 is too open defensively, but otherwise like Dunk's team a lot too.

Cheers Synco. I'm still unusually irritated by this draft, as I really should have went with the bolded option given that Larsson was in my plans for that RW role from the very start. I overthought things in terms of trying to counter Dunk rather than just playing my best team.