Criteria Draft R1 - P-Nut vs Enigma

[Fenômeno]

Team P-NUT

VS

Team Enigma

P-Nut Tactics

Decided to try and move away from the more conventional formations and go with a WM

The idea is to try and keep the opposition stretched at all times, both vertically and horizontally, and then let the central core pick the gaps created by the space.

Defensively both wider centre backs are comfortable defending 1v1 and out wide, whilst Ferdinand can play the sweeper role making use of his pace and ability on the ball.

The deeper 2 in midfield combine work rate and passing ability. Davids brings a steel to the core, whilst Netzer has great playmaking ability from deep.

The advanced midfield 2 is where the magic begins. Iniesta has license to drift and combine at will, whilst Di Stefano is the crown jewel knitting attack and defense seemlessly.

The front 3 provide pace, goals and a willingness to create for each other.

Vinicius has the pace to cause anyone an issue and was unlucky not to claim his first Ballon D'or last year, Benzema has worked well with CR7 so has no problem adjusting his game for shinier names and Salah is on track to record the first 20 goals and 20 assists season since Henry is 02/03

Enigma Tactics

Formation: 4-3-1-2 unorthodox
Tactics: Maradona running the show, direct side, quick transitions and vertical play

Defence:
Zoff is on goal one of the greatest keepers in history. In front of him Passarella in his natural LCB role, paired with another Argie great in Roberto Ayala playing the stopper role. Facchetti will occupy the left channel and will surge forward when needed, but when Passarella goes on a run he will occupy the space left behind. His athleticism and also tactical nous would help us in transition and keep a solid back three when we're attacking. Thuram plays in balanced role with Boniek also providing support when we're off the ball.

Midfield:
Fernandinho is anchoring in his natural City role. He's paired with Keane who is b2b monster and facilitator between him and Maradona. Maradona naturally runs the game, looks for openings to set up out attacking duo (Henry/Riva), use the space to finish himself. Boniek will primarily play a midfield role in this game. A very important role - he will stretch the opposition defenders out wide, help when we're off the ball and move between the lines. He has the stamina, tactical discipline and also the flair to pull that role and also with his help we will be a lot more compact when we're off the ball, whilst he can hassle and force the opponents to a mistake.

All round attacking display from Boniek against France courtesy to @harms


Attack:
Henry and Riva are a deadly duo as a tag team and on their own. Supplied by Boniek and Maradona I really like our chances to score here. Henry plays in his natural left wideish role, whilst Riva will be the CF in this game occupying opposition CB's and creating space for others. Also his ability in the air and keep the ball would also be important for us to creating chances.

Gigi Riva highlights


Key points:
We have advantage in the keeper department where Zoff is an all timer and better defence commander than Seaman. Our defence is fantastic in the air with Passarella and Ayala who are renown in their ability but Facchetti and Thuram also with their posture and frame can hold it down and clear that danger. We don't lack athleticism as well coping with the opposition sulky forwards. I think we definitely have an edge in that department with three of our defenders having a definite claim to be top 5 in their position.

Balanced midfield and attack:
Fernandinho provides the needed support between the midfield and defence. Alongside Keane it's a duo that has it all to counter AdS and Iniesta or at least negate and limit their effect on the game.

Leaders on the pitch:
We have many of them that have proven to be key players of their teams. Maradona, Keane, Henry need no introduction. Boniek led the greatest Polish team in the 80's to 3rd place in the WC, whilst Facchetti was captain of both Italian and Inter side for numerous years. Fernandinho also captained the City side that made their Premier League mark and was the cornerstone of that great midfield they had over those years. Riva also shouldn't be forgotten leading a Cagliari side to league glory.

 

[Fenômeno]

Good luck @P-Nut @Enigma_87

 

[Enigma_87]

Good luck once again @P-Nut ! Thanks for setting it up @Fenômeno

Brief thoughts - after the drafting stage I thought P-Nut would go with three at the back. However I'm not so sure of how the setup would work out wide. Salah is known to be best utilized with overlapping full back that stretches up the defence. Vini maybe less so but with our compact defence I reckon would be really tough to break down considering Facchetti and Thuram would be comfortable tucking in and defending when we're off the ball, whilst the opposition might have issues defending the wide channels with neither Vini or Salah particularly suitable to offer the full backs support.

On a side note I'm not really sure what is Netzer role here @P-Nut ? Netzer notoriously didn't have the best time with another playmaker on the field, especially as dominant as AdS, let alone additional in Iniesta. I'd say you would be a lot more comfortable with another runner in midfield at the base rather than Netzer.

 

[P-Nut]

On a side note I'm not really sure what is Netzer role here @P-Nut ? Netzer notoriously didn't have the best time with another playmaker on the field, especially as dominant as AdS, let alone additional in Iniesta. I'd say you would be a lot more comfortable with another runner in midfield at the base rather than Netzer.

He's there to dictate play from deep, in a WM there is a clear define between defence and attack, so I needed someone in those deep areas to knit the 2 together.

Di Stefano obviously aids that, but you can never have only 1 option at getting the ball from back to front, so Netzer provides the option if a couple of players stick to Di Stefano we've got the ability to go back to front quickly, or even into Iniesta who will be functioning in the inside forward role rather than coming deep to get on the ball.

 

[Enigma_87]

He's there to dictate play from deep, in a WM there is a clear define between defence and attack, so I needed someone in those deep areas to knit the 2 together.

Di Stefano obviously aids that, but you can never have only 1 option at getting the ball from back to front, so Netzer provides the option if a couple of players stick to Di Stefano we've got the ability to go back to front quickly, or even into Iniesta who will be functioning in the inside forward role rather than coming deep to get on the ball.

I see. I definitely think it’s not needed here as AdS always dropped deep to initiate play and you also have the additional creator in Iniesta to drop deep. I get the idea of having Iniesta in the final third but in this case how will Netzer / Davids function defensively when you are in the back foot?

Putting that extra body in the middle of the park means you will compromise elsewhere in this case sacrificing a full back and both Boniek and Henry will stretch your defence.

Davids can defend wide but Netzer is generally not a good fit imo. And then there’s Maradona who if is left alone can do some serious damage .

 

[P-Nut]

I see. I definitely think it’s not needed here as AdS always dropped deep to initiate play and you also have the additional creator in Iniesta to drop deep. I get the idea of having Iniesta in the final third but in this case how will Netzer / Davids function defensively when you are in the back foot?

Putting that extra body in the middle of the park means you will compromise elsewhere in this case sacrificing a full back and both Boniek and Henry will stretch your defence.

Davids can defend wide but Netzer is generally not a good fit imo. And then there’s Maradona who if is left alone can do some serious damage .

My wife defenders can defend wide, before Bergomi and Gvardiol have played at both full back and centre back.

As I said in the OP, the idea is to keep the game stretched. If your full backs want to push to support they run the risk of leaving Salah and Vini with ample space to play in on the counter, something both are devastating at and a style they both play in currently.

 

[mazhar13]

I'm intrigued by P-Nut's setup here, and I can see what he's trying to go for. For this setup to work, both wingers need to track back and help out. I can see Salah doing that, but Vini typically doesn't track back. To compensate for this, Iniesta will need to come back and help out the team, and I'm not sure if he's the best fit for that role, especially against a team like Enigma's that can retain possession at the back when under pressure.

 

[Šjor Bepo]

@P-Nut how does your team form back 4 or 5?

 

[NM]

P-Nut doesn't look balanced to me imo. 3 defenders (one of them Gvardiol!) and the 4 in midfield don't complement imo

 

[Enigma_87]

My wife defenders can defend wide, before Bergomi and Gvardiol have played at both full back and centre back.

As I said in the OP, the idea is to keep the game stretched. If your full backs want to push to support they run the risk of leaving Salah and Vini with ample space to play in on the counter, something both are devastating at and a style they both play in currently.

Yeah no doubt in terms of isolation, however if gvardiol is defending 1 on 1 with Boniek I like our chances.

We won’t have both full backs in attack naturally so at all times we would have three at the back, however Keane/Boniek are much more suited at helping the full backs if we lose possession and if we’re caught on the back foot. Salah is willing presser but mostly in the attacking third and I’d say our defence and midfield is press resistant which can switch vertically the play and find our attacking unit into space.

I rate Bergomi pretty highly at either stopper or full back but even he would have issue with prime Henry if he’s to defend him one on one.

 

[Isotope]

Di Stefano in that AM position would probably clash with Netzer, just like him and Didi. Then you're adding Iniesta to the foray.

 

[P-Nut]

@P-Nut how does your team form back 4 or 5?

It doesn't, just like the WM never did. We play on the counter leaving 3 up top, the defence sits narrow. It's a tactic to create chaos ball.

The defence protects the box, with the 2 DMs sat in front of them, concede the wide areas defensively in the knowledge that on counters we'll be deadly and have the players to get the ball into those areas quickly and effectively.

I'm intrigued by P-Nut's setup here, and I can see what he's trying to go for. For this setup to work, both wingers need to track back and help out. I can see Salah doing that, but Vini typically doesn't track back. To compensate for this, Iniesta will need to come back and help out the team, and I'm not sure if he's the best fit for that role, especially against a team like Enigma's that can retain possession at the back when under pressure.

It's not a tactic that sits well in the modern game. There is no fight for control of the game so I don't want the full backs tracking back. Playing no full backs and attacking wingers means it's a battle out wide that's impossible to win if we want to control the game. Instead the aim is to frustrate and boil the game down to counter attacking moments. That's the reason I wanted players like Ferdinand and Netzer that aid in getting the ball forward quickly.

 

[mazhar13]

It doesn't, just like the WM never did. We play on the counter leaving 3 up top, the defence sits narrow. It's a tactic to create chaos ball.

The defence protects the box, with the 2 DMs sat in front of them, concede the wide areas defensively in the knowledge that on counters we'll be deadly and have the players to get the ball into those areas quickly and effectively.



It's not a tactic that sits well in the modern game. There is no fight for control of the game so I don't want the full backs tracking back. Playing no full backs and attacking wingers means it's a battle out wide that's impossible to win if we want to control the game. Instead the aim is to frustrate and boil the game down to counter attacking moments. That's the reason I wanted players like Ferdinand and Netzer that aid in getting the ball forward quickly.

I see what you're going for now. Now that you've cleared up the game plan, I want to raise the following talking points:

• In the WM, the wide centre backs formally functioned as defensive full backs for the most part. They'd spent more time out wide and focus on dealing with the wing play. Both Gvardiol and Bergomi are adept at dealing with that, but if your defensive mids are more focused on dealing with the inside channels and supporting the defenders, then both di Stefano and Iniesta need to be more defensively involved. That doesn't get the most out of both players, which brings me to my next point.
• If you're going with a more counterattacking setup, then how does di Stefano fit into this? I've never seen him as a Luisito Suárez type of player, so I'm not sure if he'll be up for the more defensive aspect of the game when his team's not going to have much of the ball. I'm open to being proven wrong here as I do see him as a total footballer.

Whilst you have a more classical setup here, you're facing a team with a more modern approach. Both Maradona and Boniek might have a field day here.

 

[P-Nut]

I see what you're going for now. Now that you've cleared up the game plan, I want to raise the following talking points:

• In the WM, the wide centre backs formally functioned as defensive full backs for the most part. They'd spent more time out wide and focus on dealing with the wing play. Both Gvardiol and Bergomi are adept at dealing with that, but if your defensive mids are more focused on dealing with the inside channels and supporting the defenders, then both di Stefano and Iniesta need to be more defensively involved. That doesn't get the most out of both players, which brings me to my next point.
• If you're going with a more counterattacking setup, then how does di Stefano fit into this? I've never seen him as a Luisito Suárez type of player, so I'm not sure if he'll be up for the more defensive aspect of the game when his team's not going to have much of the ball. I'm open to being proven wrong here as I do see him as a total footballer.

Whilst you have a more classical setup here, you're facing a team with a more modern approach. Both Maradona and Boniek might have a field day here.

The inside forwards in a WM didn't use to have any defensive duties, they'd stay high looking to play in one of the front 3 during those transitions. Watching a game from back then is a completely different game where possession wasn't as treasured as it is in the modern game.

Whilst I can't counter that a modern set up has it's benefits, the fact all the top sides now attack in a 325 structure is testament to the potency of the formation. The other reason teams attack in a 325 is because it is best set up to stifle counters. You have 2 players (Netzer and David's here) sat waiting to win the ball back on any quick turnovers, and a rest defence of 3 players centrally guarding the middle which is where goals are scored.



Which player is out of position here or unable to cope with those demands? We've seen Guardiola play Silva and De Bruyne / De Bruyne and Foden.

Liverpool sometimes take this even further and play a 235 in attack, where Robertson attacks high and wide and Trent tucks into midfield, and yet we don't see them getting countered at will.

In the modern game the flanks are used for space to then cut inside, and that's exactly what I am set up to deal with. Henry is the most potent winger on Enigmas side and his whole reason for drifting wide was to run and shoot inside, here there's 3 CBs clogging that space rather than 2, and 2 DMs sat in front denying that inside right/left channel.

Maradonna is one of the hardest players to contain, but the best way to attempt to achieve that is to deny space and 5 central defensive minded players trumps 3 (433) or 4 (4231) at achieving that.

In basic terms the idea is to clog up the middle, allow space out wide and hit on the counter with either long diagonals, or vertical passes through the lines to the AMs or even occasionally a dribble from Di Stefano in open, broken play.

 

[Šjor Bepo]

It doesn't, just like the WM never did. We play on the counter leaving 3 up top, the defence sits narrow. It's a tactic to create chaos ball.

The defence protects the box, with the 2 DMs sat in front of them, concede the wide areas defensively in the knowledge that on counters we'll be deadly and have the players to get the ball into those areas quickly and effectively.



It's not a tactic that sits well in the modern game. There is no fight for control of the game so I don't want the full backs tracking back. Playing no full backs and attacking wingers means it's a battle out wide that's impossible to win if we want to control the game. Instead the aim is to frustrate and boil the game down to counter attacking moments. That's the reason I wanted players like Ferdinand and Netzer that aid in getting the ball forward quickly.

its a tactic that doesnt sit well in any era apart from the plumber era.

you cant play football without fullbacks

 

[P-Nut]

its a tactic that doesnt sit well in any era apart from the plumber era.

you cant play football without fullbacks

Tell that to Pep wt

 

[Himannv]

My wife defenders can defend wide

P-Nut pulling out all the stops!

 

[P-Nut]

P-Nut pulling out all the stops!

 

[Šjor Bepo]

Tell that to Pep wt

when did he play without fullbacks

 

[P-Nut]

when did he play without fullbacks

It was a joke regarding his Stones, Ake, Dias and Gvardiol line ups past season

 

[Šjor Bepo]

It was a joke regarding his Stones, Ake, Dias and Gvardiol line ups past season

joke went past me like im maguire

 

[Enigma_87]

The inside forwards in a WM didn't use to have any defensive duties, they'd stay high looking to play in one of the front 3 during those transitions. Watching a game from back then is a completely different game where possession wasn't as treasured as it is in the modern game.

Whilst I can't counter that a modern set up has it's benefits, the fact all the top sides now attack in a 325 structure is testament to the potency of the formation. The other reason teams attack in a 325 is because it is best set up to stifle counters. You have 2 players (Netzer and David's here) sat waiting to win the ball back on any quick turnovers, and a rest defence of 3 players centrally guarding the middle which is where goals are scored.



Which player is out of position here or unable to cope with those demands? We've seen Guardiola play Silva and De Bruyne / De Bruyne and Foden.

Liverpool sometimes take this even further and play a 235 in attack, where Robertson attacks high and wide and Trent tucks into midfield, and yet we don't see them getting countered at will.

In the modern game the flanks are used for space to then cut inside, and that's exactly what I am set up to deal with. Henry is the most potent winger on Enigmas side and his whole reason for drifting wide was to run and shoot inside, here there's 3 CBs clogging that space rather than 2, and 2 DMs sat in front denying that inside right/left channel.

Maradonna is one of the hardest players to contain, but the best way to attempt to achieve that is to deny space and 5 central defensive minded players trumps 3 (433) or 4 (4231) at achieving that.

In basic terms the idea is to clog up the middle, allow space out wide and hit on the counter with either long diagonals, or vertical passes through the lines to the AMs or even occasionally a dribble from Di Stefano in open, broken play.

one of the DM's dropping back to form a back four IMO is required in all eras from 60's on. Probably mid 50's even as before that it gets blurry.

As others pointed out the half backs are usually positioned as full backs in older systems and one always dropped to heart of defence to form back 4.

For example the Mighty Magyars had Zakarias in that role who dropped back to form the back four

So even if most of the old formations were depicted as 3-2-5 or 3-5-2 of sorts that was more likely a depiction of the attacking phase rather than median position.

For example we had a lot of outside lefts and rights who you had to had a defender on him in the defensive phase and from the old games you can see one of the defender pulling wide in the defensive phase.

All in all @Šjor Bepo is right, at least to my knowledge no team from the TV era played without full backs in the defensive phase.

A DM dropping back to CB making it back four in the defensive phase (ala Javi Martinez) fix most of the issues then it becomes a question of fit

 

[Enigma_87]

GG, @P-Nut

WM is always hard to pull so kudos for trying a different approach!

 

[P-Nut]

GG, @P-Nut

WM is always hard to pull so kudos for trying a different approach!

GG, yeah I only really enjoy drafting for weird and wonderful formations so R1 exits don't bother me too much. Congrats on the win

 

[Enigma_87]

GG, yeah I only really enjoy drafting for weird and wonderful formations so R1 exits don't bother me too much. Congrats on the win

Cheers mate!