Chucking..

amolbhatia50k

Sneaky bum time - Vaccination status: dozed off
Joined
Nov 8, 2002
Messages
98,374
Location
india
Whats your viewpoint on it..?? Its the most debateable thing in todays cricket i guess. People like Mcgrath, Warne, Srinath, Akram, Donald etc never bent their arm during the bolwing actions at all throughout their careers.. then we have these chaps like Shoaib and the 'Doosra' bowlers(Bhajji and other spinners) who really take the cricketing laws to the extreme.

Why not do away with the technicalities.. why should one be bending his arm at all..? It clearly gives some extra pace while others extra deliveries. Bowlers were great in the past without doing so.. IMO were just encouraging the wrong thing. I know some have these deformities, but if thats just going to give them an edge over others, its wrong.

Murli is a seperate issue, but id like your opinion on him as well.. For me, his success will always have the issue of chucking looming large over it.. statistically hes one of the best bowlers of all time, but that frickin action..
 
That's bollocks. Bowlers have always done it. The reason why there's a 15 degree limit, is because most bowlers have a bent action, according to a study I read. As for Shoaib, who's action I presume is your beef. He's got a hyperextension. His arm doesn't bend, instead his arm goes over the perpendicular. You can't ban a bloke for having retarded arms. And Murli isn't a seperate issue at all. He gets away with murde, always has. Even on slow mo his arm bends the conventional way. ie he chucks.
 
But why not just ban it.. The Mcgraths of this world have perfectly clean actions.. they barely ever bend their arms ever.. You mention Shoaib having a problem, same goes for Murli, he too bowls the way he does because its the only way he can. But its just simply wrong, because it gives these bowlers advantages.. im not singling Shaoib out in particular.. but IMO theres a problem there.. Same goes for the Doosra's of Harbhajan an all.
 
Murali's is different, he's not got a hyperextension, although I'd like to see photos that vindicate his action. And like I said you can't ban a bowler for having a disability.
 
haha india loose and nows shoaibs getting all the stick from the indians.....he does not throw the ball, infact his action is great......
 
Spoony said:
Murali's is different, he's not got a hyperextension, although I'd like to see photos that vindicate his action. And like I said you can't ban a bowler for having a disability.
Click to expand...
Thats silly.. if it gives them an advantage it shouldnt be allowed. It doesnt matter if you have a disability. Murlis action is ridiculous.. its a joke how hes been allowed to play so many tests.

And United OG, this isnt about Shoaib, he does however bend his arm and is definately overrated.
 
amolbhatia100 said:
Thats silly.. if it gives them an advantage it shouldnt be allowed. It doesnt matter if you have a disability. Murlis action is ridiculous.. its a joke how hes been allowed to play so many tests.

And United OG, this isnt about Shoaib, he does however bend his arm and is definately overrated.
Click to expand...


Murali's not got a disablity. He chucks plain and simple. And there's no law stopping a bowler having a hyperextension. What you can't do is bend and straighten your arm on purpose. I think an Indian spinner called Chandershaker had an advantage, due to him having polio at a young age. . .

'An attack of polio in childhood left his right arm withered, but Chandra turned his handicap into an advantage' http://content-uk.cricinfo.com/india/content/player/27591.html

Perhaps his stats should be wiped off. . .
 
Spoony said:
Murali's not got a disablity. He chucks plain and simple. And there's no law stopping a bowler having a hyperextension. What you can't do is bend and straighten your arm on purpose.
Click to expand...
What is a hyperextension?
 
amolbhatia100 said:
What is a hyperextension?
Click to expand...
When the arm goes past the perpendicular. . .ie the other way.

And what about Chanderashaker then?
 
Spoony said:
When you're arm goes past the perpendicular. . .ie the other way.

And what about Chanderashaker then?
Click to expand...
Dont know for sure.. it doesnt mention what the advatage is exactly.

I think you might be wrong in Shoaibs case, actually it wasnt the Indians but the former Pakistani players who have been questioning his action. I dont think his is the hyperextension thingie..
 
amolbhatia100 said:
Dont know for sure.. it doesnt mention what the advatage is exactly.

I think you might be wrong in Shoaibs case, actually it wasnt the Indians but the former Pakistani players who have been questioning his action. I dont think his is the hyperextension thingie..
Click to expand...


lol@c'mon u know this is all about shoaibs action, and yes he does have hyperextension, his shown it on tv and they even did like a major slowslow motion thing on sky a while bac showing how his hand hyperextends when he bowls, he does not throw........dude, get off his back!
 
amolbhatia100 said:
Dont know for sure.. it doesnt mention what the advatage is exactly.

I think you might be wrong in Shoaibs case, actually it wasnt the Indians but the former Pakistani players who have been questioning his action. I dont think his is the hyperextension thingie..
Click to expand...

Chandershaker had an advantage. Fact.

And yes it is an hyperextension. I've seen the photos. I'm not wrong at all. Just seems Chappell's a bit bitter. I just hope he's not like that when we beat you in India.

Shoaib Akhtar's bowling action has once again come under the spotlight following comments reportedly made by Greg Chappell, India's coach.

"There is something seriously different about it [Shoaib's action]," Reuters has quoted Chappell as saying to India's 24-hour television channel Times Now. His comments came after Sachin Tendulkar and Anil Kumble were hit on the helmet by rising Shoaib deliveries in the ongoing third and final Test at Karachi. Chappell added that India could do without its players being hit like that.

"We have seen these reports and we are trying to find out whether he has said these things," Shaharyar Khan, the Pakistan Cricket Board (PCB) chairman, told Reuters on Wednesday. "If he has implied anything about Shoaib's action it is a violation of the ICC code of conduct.

"In 2004, our chief selector Wasim Bari made some comments about the umpires officiating in a international game involving Pakistan and he was reprimanded by the ICC for violation of code of conduct which applies to all players, team and board officials."

Khan pointed out that the PCB had also asked Ranjan Madugalle, the match referee, to look into the matter. "Even if something has been implied in any statement we will pursue it with the match referee," he said.

Shoaib had been singled out for a defective action twice in his career, but was cleared by the University of Western Australia's testing centre in 2001 when it was determined that he had an abnormality in his elbow.

However, Bruce Elliott, the West Australian biomechanics expert who worked with Shoaib and Muralitharan, said it was unnecessary to re-evaluate the two. "Both of them were tested under the same conditions as what we're going to be using for [Johan] Botha. They have already been tested and cleared. Shoaib gets hyperextension, which the ICC says is OK, and rightly so," he was quoted as saying by The Age, a Melbourne-based daily. "Otherwise, you would run into problems with disability and people would take them to the high court. It's an abnormality in the arm, he is double-jointed."
 
UNITED_OG said:
lol@c'mon u know this is all about shoaibs action, and yes he does have hyperextension, his shown it on tv and they even did like a major slowslow motion thing on sky a while bac showing how his hand hyperextends when he bowls, he does not throw........dude, get off his back!
Click to expand...
Alright man calmd down..lol..
This wasnt targetted at Shoaib, not too bothered by him, hes well overrated, i just wanted open up a discussion on this.. not many people are well enough informed on this topic, me included.
 
Did anyone see the Holding thing after match?

He analyzed the hyper extension thingy of both Shoaib and RP Singh using various slow motion replays.

And according to him Shoaib has a defect in his action. When he delivers the ball his shoulder, elbow and hand should be in a straight, this is not the case with Shoaib.

I personally don't have any knowledge of the bio mechanics invloved and the rules, just quoting what Holding concluded.
 
Indians questioning opponents bowling action today of all days-you know how it sounds ?
 
Spoony said:
Chandershaker had an advantage. Fact.

And yes it is an hyperextension. I've seen the photos. I'm not wrong at all. Just seems Chappell's a bit bitter. I just hope he's not like that when we beat you in India.

Shoaib Akhtar's bowling action has once again come under the spotlight following comments reportedly made by Greg Chappell, India's coach.

"There is something seriously different about it [Shoaib's action]," Reuters has quoted Chappell as saying to India's 24-hour television channel Times Now. His comments came after Sachin Tendulkar and Anil Kumble were hit on the helmet by rising Shoaib deliveries in the ongoing third and final Test at Karachi. Chappell added that India could do without its players being hit like that.

"We have seen these reports and we are trying to find out whether he has said these things," Shaharyar Khan, the Pakistan Cricket Board (PCB) chairman, told Reuters on Wednesday. "If he has implied anything about Shoaib's action it is a violation of the ICC code of conduct.

"In 2004, our chief selector Wasim Bari made some comments about the umpires officiating in a international game involving Pakistan and he was reprimanded by the ICC for violation of code of conduct which applies to all players, team and board officials."

Khan pointed out that the PCB had also asked Ranjan Madugalle, the match referee, to look into the matter. "Even if something has been implied in any statement we will pursue it with the match referee," he said.

Shoaib had been singled out for a defective action twice in his career, but was cleared by the University of Western Australia's testing centre in 2001 when it was determined that he had an abnormality in his elbow.

However, Bruce Elliott, the West Australian biomechanics expert who worked with Shoaib and Muralitharan, said it was unnecessary to re-evaluate the two. "Both of them were tested under the same conditions as what we're going to be using for [Johan] Botha. They have already been tested and cleared. Shoaib gets hyperextension, which the ICC says is OK, and rightly so," he was quoted as saying by The Age, a Melbourne-based daily. "Otherwise, you would run into problems with disability and people would take them to the high court. It's an abnormality in the arm, he is double-jointed."
Click to expand...

You missed the vital last part of this article which states that Shoaib PASSED the old 10 degree test when it was in place. Now the law says it can go to 15 degrees. If Shoaib even entertained the idea of taking the new 15 degree test how stupid would the ICC look?

I won't ask how stupid certain Indians would look as those stupid Indians have already made themselves known with News Channel interviews and threads like these. :smirk:
 
Sultan said:
Indians questioning opponents bowling action today of all days-you know how it sounds ?
Click to expand...
Im not questioning just Shoaib.. presicely the reason why i mentioned Harbhajans name as well.
 
Muralitheran has reverted to chucking yet again, especially with his faster balls. No doubt he will undergo some more remedial training and then resume chucking with the process emasculating the umpires who should no ball 20% or more of his deliveries.
 
Wibble said:
Muralitheran has reverted to chucking yet again, especially with his faster balls. No doubt he will undergo some more remedial training and then resume chucking with the process emasculating the umpires who should no ball 20% or more of his deliveries.
Click to expand...


BBC Cricket

A successful shoulder operation last year allowed him to increase his bowling speed, but that raised fears he could be in breach of ICC rules.

Every time I go near the boundary line they say things, so they are not accepting me.

There has also been criticism that his last round of tests, in April 2004, did not replicate match conditions.

But the latest version, under biomechanics expert Professor Bruce Elliott, showed his average elbow extension while bowling the 'doosra' leg-break delivery at an average of 53.75 mph was 12.2 degrees

The average for his off-break was 12.9 degrees at 59.03 mph.

"There's nothing more he could do," Elliott said.

"The latest testing shows, irrespective of whether he's bowling a doosra or an off-break, all his deliveries were under 15 degrees, so none were illegal."

Muralitharan said he was again contemplating not returning to Australia because of the abuse he receives, stating "99%" of the taunts over his action occur in Australia
 
This 15 degree rule is never going to work out, there is no way an umpire can judge if the bowler is bending his arm more than 15 degrees. Hence there is very little proof to show that the bowler isn't chucking.

In Murali's one of his elbows was slightly deformed at birth and yes I have seen it.
 
roonaldo78 said:
This 15 degree rule is never going to work out, there is no way an umpire can judge if the bowler is bending his arm more than 15 degrees. Hence there is very little proof to show that the bowler isn't chucking.

In Murali's one of his elbows was slightly deformed at birth and yes I have seen it.
Click to expand...

The Aussies are jealous cos his going to beat Warney's record.

Two greatest bowlers ever (spinners).
 
mulitharan will go on to beat warnes record most probably but no matter how you try to look at it, one has taken his wickets with a proper action whilst the other has an advantage of bowling deliveries with a defect.warne will allways be considered the best spinner of his generation if not all time.
 
massey said:
mulitharan will go on to beat warnes record most probably but no matter how you try to look at it, one has taken his wickets with a proper action whilst the other has an advantage of bowling deliveries with a defect therefore having an advantage.warne will allways be considered the best spinner of his generation if not all time.
Click to expand...
One's a druggie, other a chucker :angel:
 
The latest estimates are that Mural is bending his elbow elbow by more than 20 degrees. No doubt he will underso remedial training, test at under 15 degrees and then go back to his normal ways. You might as well allow baseball pitching.
 
I dont think bending the elbow gives a big thrust in the flight specifially for the spinners. When spinners release the ball only their wrist movements counts.

Ramadin and Harbhajan are outright cheats but Murali and Chandra are basically wrist spinners and get the benefit of doubt. Shoiab is generating the extra swing with his faulty action. At times he even bends his elbows and uses a cheating side arm action when he releases the ball.

Cheating chucker.
 
vijay said:
I dont think bending the elbow gives a big thrust in the flight specifially for the spinners. When spinners release the ball only their wrist movements counts.

Ramadin and Harbhajan are outright cheats but Murali and Chandra are basically wrist spinners and get the benefit of doubt. Shoiab is generating the extra swing with his faulty action. At times he even bends his elbows and uses a cheating side arm action when he releases the ball.

Cheating chucker.
Click to expand...

Well Said

The aussies are simply jealous, they don't like players from other nations breaking their records.
 
Wibble said:
The latest estimates are that Mural is bending his elbow elbow by more than 20 degrees. No doubt he will underso remedial training, test at under 15 degrees and then go back to his normal ways. You might as well allow baseball pitching.
Click to expand...

Didn't the same tests indicate that some Australian bowlers were bending their elbows more than 10 degrees?
 
The allowance is now 15 degrees for spinners isn't it?

And whatever the standard it should be equaly applied. If it had been an English or Aussie bowler the authorities wouldn't have been so pathetic which has resulted in umpires being too scared to call obviously dodgy actions.
 
vijay said:
I dont think bending the elbow gives a big thrust in the flight specifially for the spinners. When spinners release the ball only their wrist movements counts.

Ramadin and Harbhajan are outright cheats but Murali and Chandra are basically wrist spinners and get the benefit of doubt. Shoiab is generating the extra swing with his faulty action. At times he even bends his elbows and uses a cheating side arm action when he releases the ball.

Cheating chucker.
Click to expand...
I dont know.. im not so wel informed on this topic to formulate a proper opinion. But iv always felt Harbhajan and Shaoibs actions were dodgy..
 
Wibble said:
The allowance is now 15 degrees for spinners isn't it?

And whatever the standard it should be equaly applied. If it had been an English or Aussie bowler the authorities wouldn't have been so pathetic which has resulted in umpires being too scared to call obviously dodgy actions.
Click to expand...

I thought it was 15 degrees for every bowler.

Some of the faster bowlers were also tested and they were found to be bending their elbows more than 10 degrees even though the limit was only 7 degrees.

The umpires have never been scared to report an asian bowler except in the case of Murali since he has already been cleared whereas I am sure they will have second thoughts when reporting an English or Aussie bowler.
 
roonaldo78 said:
I thought it was 15 degrees for every bowler.

Some of the faster bowlers were also tested and they were found to be bending their elbows more than 10 degrees even though the limit was only 7 degrees.

The umpires have never been scared to report an asian bowler except in the case of Murali since he has already been cleared whereas I am sure they will have second thoughts when reporting an English or Aussie bowler.
Click to expand...

Maybe it is now. Which is probably a cop out anyway.

Murali has now been "cleared" again but all that proves is that he doesn't have to bend his elbow as much as he does during real games.

http://www.skysports.com/skysports/article/0,,8-1211357,00.html
 
massey said:
Thats because no one on the english team looks as if they are chucking.Name one at the moment ?.
Click to expand...

What has that got to do with anything? Do Engkand even have a spin bowler? This goes back to the fiasco when Haire just about had his umpiring career destroyed for quite rightly no balling and reporting Murali for his doosra. It was played as if this was some sort of racist act which was utter bullshit.

Look at the comparative fines given to Murali for giving the finger to the crowd recently (no punishment) and Gillcrest who got a huge fone for discent when the unpire failed to spot the most blatant run out possible and refused to refer it to the third umpire. Not justifying discent but there is a disparity between the treatment of players from different countries.
 
I was only replying about the last paragraph or ronaldo 78's post about there being a hesitation in calling australian and english players for chucking ,and that umpires didn't call our players and the aussies for chucking because we dont have many players with a suspect action the only two can think off in recent times are brett lee and james kirtley who i think got reported anyway.
 
massey said:
Thats because no one on the english team looks as if they are chucking.Name one at the moment ?.
Click to expand...

I never said that any of them were chucking, what I meant is that if someone does.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.