Aside from all the legal and political issues with that idea, a huge part of shipping is not registered to the country they operate for. The ship in the most recent incident was registered on the Cook Islands, to an owner in I think it was Abu Dhabi or Dubai. That's the whole point of it being a "shadow fleet".I say we just start confiscating any Chinese or Russian vessel (or just non EU Vessel, not like others are about in these waters anyway) within 100 nautical miles of a underwater cable going wrong.
And keep them until we satisfied it wasn't them.
We don't need to hurry looking.
Well we will have to take it up with the Cook Islands then, won't we?Aside from all the legal and political issues with that idea, a huge part of shipping is not registered to the country they operate for. The ship in the most recent incident was registered on the Cook Islands, to an owner in I think it was Abu Dhabi or Dubai. That's the whole point of it being a "shadow fleet".
- The water us a bit bumpey today Sergei.https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...d-sabotage-find-100km-trail-on-baltic-sea-bed
«No, we certainly weren’t aware that the anchor was dropped and that we had it dragging along the seabed for over 60 miles»
I’d love to be onboard a vessel with such a silent anchor.
The important legal difference there was that the ship already was in Finnish waters and they were legally able to stop and search it since they had plausible cause to suspect it.Well we will have to take it up with the Cook Islands then, won't we?
Finland brought that most recent ship under it's control and then sailed it to Finnish waters afterwards, citing sabotage as reason. They set the precedent everyone should now follow.
The important legal difference there was that the ship already was in Finnish waters and they were legally able to stop and search it since they had plausible cause to suspect it.
Bit of preliminary info on it:
I am not a lawyer for maritime law but I'd imagine that they, being merely the country it is registered to, would just foist off the responsibility to the owners, and those will just turn out to be another letterbox company whose owner either does not exist or is some poor fecker who got paid $200 to put his name on the papers.Alright that part was ommitted in the report I read.
My point remains though that if someone is fecking with our infrastructure we will need to just take it up with the Cook Islands etc. instead of just acting like it's not happening.
You can't start shelling a place from international waters either and expect no one to show up. If Cook Island (or any other micro state) nation's ships are damaging our infrastructure someone will need to answer for it.
And if the nations GDP is less than the value of the cargo on the ship we should just confiscate that, full stop.
That’s basically the CIA’s Radio Free Europe.Just rip up their infrastructure every time it happens. Same with all this hybrid warfare. We should have a propaganda machine running permanently in russia.
Every Russian state hacker should have multiple people assigned to making their life miserable.
Return fire basically
Which is why I say confiscate the ships. Let Cook Islands or the letter box company go to war against us if they feel they must.I am not a lawyer for maritime law but I'd imagine that they, being merely the country it is registered to, would just foist off the responsibility to the owners, and those will just turn out to be another letterbox company whose owner either does not exist or is some poor fecker who got paid $200 to put his name on the papers.
If it was that easy and feasible to demand compensation from the registering country then I doubt we'd have all those barely floating hulls floating around the seas under their flags.
Which is why I say confiscate the ships. Let Cook Islands or the letter box company go to war against us if they feel they must.
You're saying they might do something like try to destroy underwater cables as retaliation?Luckly there are no western ships that sail and dock in chinese water so china cant retaliate. Also china is known as very transparent and would never make shit up to retaliate
That’s basically the CIA’s Radio Free Europe.
You're saying they might do something like try to destroy underwater cables as retaliation?
They are already claiming the "South China Sea" as their own because of it's name. They don't give two fecks about the rules.
We are talking to hijack vessels without due diligence. That i am not 100% against it but would have consequences that an authoritarian country would go at greater lengths and definitely would not solve the cables issue
What they gunna do? Russia is setting the precedent by doing whatever the feck they want as long as it as some sliver of deniability, and getting away with it. They are waging war on the rest of the world, its about time the world started taking part.
Will be fun to see the west behaving the same hujacking vessels. Then at least the fake morality will out the window.
The fake morality to accuse China and Russia to do what the west had done may more times since WWII lead by the US. US had treat like shit part of its own population for race reasons, It installed authoritarian puppets at will couping democratic elected governments, invided multiple countries some of them with outright lies. Cyberattacks? don't make me laugh. US spied allies and enemies alike even selling tampered coding machines which they had access anytime to listen allies in Europe. Lack of willingness to deploy? I assume that you mean Ukraine (which I agree) and maybe Taiwan? because beside that, US had little problem to deploy their military whenever they feel necessary.What do you mean by fake morality?
The West has operated with its gloves off for two decades now, and its more concerned with the political ramifications of how it appears on a moral basis to each electorate than actually doing the things it can to counter its geopolitical adversaries.
-Western Intelligence services are sitting on a huge pile of D0's that have been unused, despite the constant cyberattacks by Russia/China against the West.
-The complete reluctance to engage in hybrid-warfare, despite the resources and the capability to do so.
-The lack of bite to respond tit-for-tat when it comes to adversarial threats - waiting for that one big escalation where the electorate are happy for an actual response.
-The lack of willingness to actually deploy its military assets to secure key geopolitical and strategic interests.
The fake morality to accuse China and Russia to do what the west had done may more times since WWII lead by the US. US had treat like shit part of its own population for race reasons, It installed authoritarian puppets at will couping democratic elected governments, invided multiple countries some of them with outright lies. Cyberattacks? don't make me laugh. US spied allies and enemies alike even selling tampered coding machines which they had access anytime to listen allies in Europe. Lack of willingness to deploy? I assume that you mean Ukraine (which I agree) and maybe Taiwan? because beside that, US had little problem to deploy their military whenever they feel necessary.
And that is why the fake morality. US (and the west by extension) had done the same than Russia and China, more times and more intense than them and people like you and many others make it seems that Russia are the only bad actors here when the US is much worse. That is the fake morality that I am talking about. If Finland, norway, germany would stard hijacking vessels without due diligence (that is what triggered my initial comment) and throwing the accusations to Russia and China's face, the mask of fake morality would slip because then it would tell China and Russia that we can do as much feck up things as they do and we (as europe) recognize ourselves to be bad guys also and will fight with the same feck up bad arts.
China and Russia have right now the upperhand because is like Trump, no one is expecting them to do better because is who they are. US and Europe put themselves in the shitty situation to be as bad (and worse) than China and Russia but dressed themselves with an aura of morality that first, makes them fake and lose any moral legitimacy that they claim, and second, curtail their actions against Russia and China to try to cover the cracks in the fake mask that are getting bigger and bigger. Also for economic consequences in respect of China.
Yeah everybody should just let their infrastructure be attacked because @4bars watched too much youtube.The fake morality to accuse China and Russia to do what the west had done may more times since WWII lead by the US. US had treat like shit part of its own population for race reasons, It installed authoritarian puppets at will couping democratic elected governments, invided multiple countries some of them with outright lies. Cyberattacks? don't make me laugh. US spied allies and enemies alike even selling tampered coding machines which they had access anytime to listen allies in Europe. Lack of willingness to deploy? I assume that you mean Ukraine (which I agree) and maybe Taiwan? because beside that, US had little problem to deploy their military whenever they feel necessary.
And that is why the fake morality. US (and the west by extension) had done the same than Russia and China, more times and more intense than them and people like you and many others make it seems that Russia are the only bad actors here when the US is much worse. That is the fake morality that I am talking about. If Finland, norway, germany would stard hijacking vessels without due diligence (that is what triggered my initial comment) and throwing the accusations to Russia and China's face, the mask of fake morality would slip because then it would tell China and Russia that we can do as much feck up things as they do and we (as europe) recognize ourselves to be bad guys also and will fight with the same feck up bad arts.
China and Russia have right now the upperhand because is like Trump, no one is expecting them to do better because is who they are. US and Europe put themselves in the shitty situation to be as bad (and worse) than China and Russia but dressed themselves with an aura of morality that first, makes them fake and lose any moral legitimacy that they claim, and second, curtail their actions against Russia and China to try to cover the cracks in the fake mask that are getting bigger and bigger. Also for economic consequences in respect of China.
You think they have done equivalent thingsbut that's because you don't know what life in China or Russia is like and only pick the examples of things that matter greatly to you, someone who has always loved in a fairly free society. All governments are awful, but not many are as awful as Russia's or China's have been for the last 20 years or so.
Yeah everybody should just let their infrastructure be attacked because @4bars watched too much youtube.
Your ramblings have literally no connection to a energy cable being severed between Finland and Estonia.
I am talking mostly about foreign policy which there is no comparison possible. Interbally, US has decades of advantadge of progression since he imprisoned japanese americans in concenteation camps and segregation.
Having read dozens to hundreds of your posts I observe that your ramblings just change slightly depending on the question that brought them up.Dont have twitter, dont have youtube ans so on. So keep trying. My ramblings comes here and there and morphs depending on questions that i have been asked. Life in a forum soesnt stop on your questions and anseers but others that adds continuously. Stop being so selfcentered
I am talking mostly about foreign policy which there is no comparison possible. Interbally, US has decades of advantadge of progression since he imprisoned japanese americans in concenteation camps and segregation.
I find it funny you talk about foreign policy and then cite a domestic policy as an example.
And it’s funny, china and Russia as nation states have committed foreign policy atrocities that not only predates the existence of the USA as a country but also stuff that makes coups and the trail of tears look like a brisk jog.
Unless for some reason you want to disregard pre CCP china and pre 91 Russia as separate entities?
Seriously man, read up on some things.
Having read dozens to hundreds of your posts I observe that your ramblings just change slightly depending on the question that brought them up.
Russia wants to make it as painful as possible for Estonia to leave the Russian energy grid. Thus they attempt to decrease the connections Estonia has to other countries.
*Under a democratic (ish) system. China is not progressing and it won't as long as the current government remains. Same goes for Putin's Russia. It's wilful ignorance to try and make equivalence.
And i find funny that 90% of my argument is based on foreign policy but you find funny the minority pint (that is also true). Guess we are both funny guys
I dont disregard CCP and pre 91 russia and in foreign policy, US had been much harmful
Thanks for the advise, ill keep reading
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dzungar_genocide
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panthay_Rebellion#Atrocities
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiping_Rebellion
Start with these ones on China - you could make an argument that a country that was subjucated and then rebelled is technically "domestic policy" but its picking hairs at that point.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circassian_genocide
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De-Cossackization
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kazakh_famine_of_1930–1933 (This one is brutal - the Kazakhs declared independence, Bolsheviks took them back in the reigns and then famine made Kazakhs an ethnic minority in Kazakhstan)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katyn_massacre
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NKVD_prisoner_massacres
This doesn't even touch the shit the Russians did to Warsaw pact countries during the cold war.
If you genuinely think the USA has done anything as close to horrifying as this I don't know what to say.
