Centre-back pairings - now actually positively interesting

Bastian

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Centre-back pairings and results 2022-2023 season

(H) Brighton 1-2: Martinez-Maguire
(A) Brentford 4-0: Martinez-Maguire
(H) Liverpool 2-1: Martinez-Varane
(A) Southampton 1-2: Martinez Varane
(A) Leicester 0-1: Martinez-Varane
(H) Arsenal 3-1: Martinez-Varane
(H) Real Sociedad 0-1: Lindelof-Maguire
(A) Sheriff Tiraspol 0-2: Martinez-Varane
(A) City 6-3: Martinez-Varane
(A) Omonia Nicosia 2-3: Martinez-Lindelof
(A) Everton 1-2: Martinez-Lindelof
(H) Omonia Nicosia 1-0: Martinez-Lindelof
(H) Newcastle 0-0: Martinez-Varane
(H) Tottenham 2-0: Martinez-Varane
(A) Chelsea 1-1: Martinez-Varane
(H) Sheriff Tiraspol 3-0: Martinez-Lindelof
(H) West Ham 1-0: Martinez-Maguire
(A) Real Sociedad 0-1: Martinez-Maguire
(A) Villa 3-1: Martinez-Lindelof
(H) (LC) Villa 4-2: Martinez-Maguire
(A) Fulham 1-2: Martinez-Lindelof
(H) (LC) Burnley 2-0: Lindelof-Casemiro
(H) Forest 3-0: Shaw-Varane
(A) Wolves 0-1: Shaw-Varane
(H) Bournemouth 3-0: Lindelof-Maguire
(H) (FA Cup) Everton 3-1: Shaw-Varane
(H) (LC) Charlton 3-0: Martinez-Maguire
(H) City 2-1: Shaw-Varane
(A) Palace 1-1: Martinez-Maguire
(A) Arsenal 3-2: Martinez-Varane
(A) (LC SF 1st leg) Forest 0-3: Martinez-Lindelof
(H) (FA Cup) Reading 3-1: Lindelof-Maguire
(H) (LC SF 2nd leg) Forest 2-0: Martinez-Varane
(H) Palace 2-1: Martinez-Varane
(H) Leeds 2-2: Martinez-Varane
(A) Leeds 0-2: Shaw-Maguire
(A) Barcelona 2-2: Shaw-Varane
(H) Leicester 3-0: Martinez-Lindelof
(H) Barcelona 2-1: Martinez-Varane
LC Final United 2 Newcastle 0: Martinez-Varane
(H) (FA Cup) West Ham 3-1: Lindelof-Maguire
(A) Liverpool 7-0: Martinez-Varane
(H) Real Betis 4-1: Martinez-Varane
(H) Southampton 0-0: Martinez-Varane
(A) Real Betis 0-1: Martinez-Maguire
(H) (FA Cup) Fulham 3-1: Martinez-Maguire
(A) Newcastle 2-0: Martinez-Varane
(H) Brentford 1-0: Martinez-Varane
(H) Everton 2-0: Martinez-Maguire
(H) Sevilla 2-2: Martinez-Varane
(A) Forest 0-2: Lindelof-Maguire
(A) Sevilla 3-0: Lindelof-Maguire
FA Cup SF Brighton 0 United 0 (6-7 on pens): Shaw-Lindelof
(A) Tottenham 2-2: Shaw-Lindelof
(H) Villa 1-0: Shaw-Lindelof
(A) Brighton 1-0: Shaw-Lindelof
(A) West Ham 1-0: Shaw-Lindelof
(H) Wolves 2-0: Lindelof-Varane
(A) Bournemouth 0-1: Lindelof-Varane
(H) Chelsea 4-1: Varane-Lindelof
(H) Fulham 2-1: Lindelof-Maguire
(Wembley FA Cup Final) City 2 United 0: Lindelof-Varane

9 different centre-back pairings:

Martinez Maguire
Martinez Varane
Lindelof Maguire
Martinez Lindelof
Lindelof Casemiro
Shaw Varane
Shaw Maguire
Shaw Lindelof
Lindelof Varane

Eventual first choice pairing used in 21 matches (from the third match onwards), 12 wins, 5 draws, 4 losses.

Centre-back pairings and results 2023-2024 season

(H) Wolves 1-0: Martinez-Varane
(A) Tottenham 2-0: Martinez-Varane
(H) Forest 3-2: Martinez-Varane
(A) Arsenal 3-1: Martinez-Lindelof
(H) Brighton 1-3: Martinez-Lindelof
(A) Bayern 4-3: Martinez-Lindelof
(A) Burnley 0-1: Evans-Lindelof
(H) (LC) Palace 3-0: Maguire-Varane
(H) Palace 0-1: Lindelof-Varane
(H) Galatasaray 2-3: Lindelof-Varane
(H) Brentford 2-1: Evans-Maguire
(A) Sheffield United 1-2: Evans-Maguire
(H) Copenhagen 1-0: Maguire-Varane
(H) City 3-0: Evans-Maguire
(H) (LC) Newcastle 0-3: Lindelof-Maguire
(A) Fulham 0-1: Evans-Maguire
(A) Copenhagen 4-3: Evans-Maguire
(H) Luton 1-0: Lindelof-Maguire
(A) Everton 0-3: Lindelof-Maguire
(A) Galatasaray 3-3: Lindelof-Maguire
(A) Newcastle 1-0: Shaw-Maguire
(H) Chelsea 2-1: Lindelof-Maguire
(H) Bournemouth 0-3: Shaw-Maguire
(H) Bayern 0-1: Varane-Maguire
(A) Liverpool 0-0: Evans-Varane
(A) West Ham 2-0: Evans-Kambwala
(H) Villa 3-2: Evans-Varane
(A) Forest 2-1: Evans-Varane
(A) (FA Cup) Wigan 0-2: Evans-Varane
(H) Tottenham 2-2: Evans-Varane
(A) (FA Cup) Notts County 2-4: Martinez-Varane
(A) Wolves 3-4: Martinez-Varane
(H) West Ham 3-0: Martinez-Maguire
(A) Villa 1-2: Maguire-Varane
(A) Luton 1-2: Maguire-Varane
(H) Fulham 1-2: Maguire-Varane
(A) (FA Cup) Forest 0-1: Varane-Lindelof
(A) City 3-1: Evans-Varane
(H) Everton 2-0: Evans-Varane
(H) (FA Cup) Liverpool 4-3 (aet): Varane-Lindelof
(A) Brentford 1-1: Varane-Lindelof
(A) Chelsea 4-3: Varane-Maguire
(H) Liverpool 2-2: Maguire-Kambwala
(A) Bournemouth 2-2: Maguire-Kambwala
FA Cup SF Coventry 3 United 3 (5-7 on pens): Maguire-Casemiro
(H) Sheffield United 4-2: Maguire-Casemiro
(H) Burnley 1-1: Maguire-Casemiro
(A) Palace 4-0: Evans-Casemiro
(H) Arsenal 0-1: Evans-Casemiro
(H) Newcastle 3-2: Evans-Casemiro
(A) Brighton 0-2: Martinez-Casemiro
FA Cup Final United 2 City 1: Martinez-Varane

15 different centre-back pairings:

Martinez Varane
Martinez Lindelof
Evans Lindelof
Maguire Varane
Lindelof Varane
Evans Maguire
Lindelof Maguire
Shaw Maguire
Evans Varane
Evans Kambwala
Martinez Maguire
Maguire Kambwala
Maguire Casemiro
Evans Casemiro
Martinez Casemiro

First choice pairing in 6 matches, 5 wins 1 loss.

With Varane off now, it is an obvious position that needs a first choice player in the summer. With Martinez' lack of availability and how fundamental his ball playing ability is for the collective performance of the team I'd argue that we require two centre backs, both of whom are good enough to start, tactically more suitable than the other three senior centre backs on our books (Maguire, Lindelof, Evans) while it's still to early to make a judgement on Kambwala. We can see that Erik relied heavily on Shaw at LCB when Martinez was injured, but having them both out had a major impact on our collective performance. Shaw's fitness is also a question mark going into next season.

We cannot stockpile defenders so we have to get rid of some in the summer. Evans is out of contract while Maguire and Lindelof can both command a decent fee and getting them off the wage bill will be very useful. I'd give Evans another contract, as a safety measure as well as having him in the dressing room.

This update was inspired by @BenitoSTARR excellent thread on injuries and availability this season (great work!).

I think the "depth" is over-appreciated due to Lindelof's good form in the last third of last season. And when I say over-appreciated, I still know people think it's between poor and shit.

Varane and Shaw works as a pairing. As does Varane and Martinez. Varane and Lindelof is a level down. Lindelof and Shaw might be another level down from that.

Shaw and Martinez is too small and awkward with two left footers, Martinez and Lindelof is quite frail and lacks physicality. And Maguire and anyone else is calamitous.

In essence, without Varane we are a level down. And he's super injury prone. Out of ten possible pairings, two work, two are passable, six are nervy.

I hope we buy a centre back in January who can compete with Varane for his spot.
 
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Firstv of all anybody that is under 6.1 feet (183 cm) isnt a CB (Shaw and Martinez). I dont care how "modern" football has evolved if you want to be a CB you need to head the ball. Lindelof is the worst CB this club has had since Blanc and isnt suited for this league. Maguire has no confidence any more since he has been the escapegoat for the last two years (aldo he is mid table PL quality at best). Varane is injury prone so in reality we need 2 CBs
 
I think Varane will be replaced and would have been this summer if not for financial constraints. Lot of rumours we were looking at a right sided ball playing cb
 
Shaw and Varane is our best partnership. Both are far too injury prone so really we need two next summer.
 
I still think Martinez would be suited to a CDM next to Casemiro / Amrabat and be able to drop into a back 5 when needed.

We desperately need another centre back. I’d be looking at Tomori or Guehi
 
Bastian said:
I think the "depth" is over-appreciated due to Lindelof's good form in the last third of last season. And when I say over-appreciated, I still know people think it's between poor and shit.

Varane and Shaw works as a pairing. As does Varane and Martinez. Varane and Lindelof is a level down. Lindelof and Shaw might be another level down from that.

Shaw and Martinez is too small and awkward with two left footers, Martinez and Lindelof is quite frail and lacks physicality. And Maguire and anyone else is calamitous.

In essence, without Varane we are a level down. And he's super injury prone. Out of ten possible pairings, two work, two are passable, six are nervy.

I hope we buy a centre back in January who can compete with Varane for his spot.
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Yes. I was saying it all summer but the number of times I saw “Lindelof is fine as backup” was incredible. We probably did have higher priorities but we absolutely need another good CB.
 
We certainly do need another usable cb who is good in the air, the drop off between with and without Varane is ostensibly too much to tolerate for this team. It's like a gaping blackhole appears when Varane isn't there and it's not a new thing for us.

We have known ever since he has been in Manchester and further back from when he was in Madrid that his fitness can be unreliable. But we just haven't gotten a damn substitute for him and it's hurt us on too many occasions. Our team falls to shit without our best defender at CB, it's simple.
 
norm87cro said:
Firstv of all anybody that is under 6.1 feet (183 cm) isnt a CB (Shaw and Martinez). I dont care how "modern" football has evolved if you want to be a CB you need to head the ball. Lindelof is the worst CB this club has had since Blanc and isnt suited for this league. Maguire has no confidence any more since he has been the escapegoat for the last two years (aldo he is mid table PL quality at best). Varane is injury prone so in reality we need 2 CBs
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You tell ‘em norm
 
So far this season there have been so many different partnerships all over the pitch, CB, FB, CM, Forward 3 all changing week to week.

Licha and Varane are the clear 1st choice.

If the midfield area was settles then you could get away with Licha and Lindelof.
 
RuudTom83 said:
So far this season there have been so many different partnerships all over the pitch, CB, FB, CM, Forward 3 all changing week to week.

Licha and Varane are the clear 1st choice.

If the midfield area was settles then you could get away with Licha and Lindelof.
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I don’t like it but, yeah, if the rest of the team is working well then it shouldn’t bring the whole house of cards down if Vic has to come in sometimes.
 
Crashoutcassius said:
I think Varane will be replaced and would have been this summer if not for financial constraints. Lot of rumours we were looking at a right sided ball playing cb
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EtH priority signing was Kim Min-Jae. I think based on media reports he was certain United would get him and must have been very disappointed when the board screwed it up.
 
norm87cro said:
Firstv of all anybody that is under 6.1 feet (183 cm) isnt a CB (Shaw and Martinez). I dont care how "modern" football has evolved if you want to be a CB you need to head the ball. Lindelof is the worst CB this club has had since Blanc and isnt suited for this league. Maguire has no confidence any more since he has been the escapegoat for the last two years (aldo he is mid table PL quality at best). Varane is injury prone so in reality we need 2 CBs
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Agree. It's also part of the reason we offer so little threat from corners too.
 
Given how many thrashings Utd have taken away from home in the last year I don't think there is a single pairing, even Lisandro and Varane, that gives me full confidence. Ok to keep clean sheets at home in games you should be winning, but up against better quality, away from home is where you see the true level of a defensive set up.

Ten Hag's often baffling midfield set ups don't help them to be fair.
 
So ETH doesn't fancy Maguire-Varane as a pairing, which is understandable. The press hounded him for a dramatic "fall-out" answer but it was simply that Maguire is in good form hence Varane's on the bench. He said Varane and Martinez were brilliant, he also things Varane and Evans works, Varane and Lindelof.

"The build-up is not that fluid when one of them is playing from the left centre-half position". Goes on to say Licha, Shaw, and even Evans and Lindelof are comfortable on the left and can use their left foot allowing them to make the right angles.

Quite forthright.

 
norm87cro said:
Firstv of all anybody that is under 6.1 feet (183 cm) isnt a CB (Shaw and Martinez). I dont care how "modern" football has evolved if you want to be a CB you need to head the ball. Lindelof is the worst CB this club has had since Blanc and isnt suited for this league. Maguire has no confidence any more since he has been the escapegoat for the last two years (aldo he is mid table PL quality at best). Varane is injury prone so in reality we need 2 CBs
Click to expand...

Wow, what an opinion.

You're right, I guess Carles Puyol, Fabio Cannavaro, Franz Beckenbauer, Franco Baresi, Frank De Boer, Ivan Cordoba, Bobby Moore, Ronald Koeman, Thiago Silva, David Alaba, Azpelicueta are all bad center backs, what have any of them done between them?

Given this club has played the likes of McNair, Rojo, Blackett, Donald Love in that position, I find it remarkable you think Maguire is the worst defender since...Laurent Blanc...one of the greatest CB's of the past 30 years.
 
AfonsoAlves said:
Wow, what an opinion.

You're right, I guess Carles Puyol, Fabio Cannavaro, Franz Beckenbauer, Franco Baresi, Frank De Boer, Ivan Cordoba, Bobby Moore, Ronald Koeman, Thiago Silva, David Alaba, Azpelicueta are all bad center backs, what have any of them done between them?

Given this club has played the likes of McNair, Rojo, Blackett, Donald Love in that position, I find it remarkable you think Maguire is the worst defender since...Laurent Blanc...one of the greatest CB's of the past 30 years.
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He said Lindelof was, and Blanc wasn't all that good when he was here because he was 107.
 
AfonsoAlves said:
Even so, Lindelof is not worse than Rojo, Blackett, Love, McNair etc. Not by a long shot.
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Before doing his cruciate, Rojo was actually quite good for us when played in the centre. He was our best defender in 16/17 for example. It was when he was out on the left that he was bad. Then he was just bad no matter where he played after the cruciate injury.
 
MadDogg said:
Before doing his cruciate, Rojo was actually quite good for us when played in the centre. He was our best defender in 16/17 for example. It was when he was out on the left that he was bad. Then he was just bad no matter where he played after the cruciate injury.
Click to expand...

Was that when him and Jones had a run of matches? I seem to recall that they had a pretty decent partnership for a run of games. Both absolutely willing to smash into people, neither a beast in the air, mind.
 
MadDogg said:
Before doing his cruciate, Rojo was actually quite good for us when played in the centre. He was our best defender in 16/17 for example. It was when he was out on the left that he was bad. Then he was just bad no matter where he played after the cruciate injury.
Click to expand...

Lindelof is just consistently "okay", he isnt a great defender by any means but his ability is known and we know what we're going to get.

Marcos Rojo is literally batshit insane. The kind of "I'm going to two foot this guy in the knee in the center circle for no discernable reason" kind of insane.
 
AfonsoAlves said:
Lindelof is just consistently "okay", he isnt a great defender by any means but his ability is known and we know what we're going to get.

Marcos Rojo is literally batshit insane. The kind of "I'm going to two foot this guy in the knee in the center circle for no discernable reason" kind of insane.
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Never sent off whilst at United though.
 
Bastian said:
Was that when him and Jones had a run of matches? I seem to recall that they had a pretty decent partnership for a run of games. Both absolutely willing to smash into people, neither a beast in the air, mind.
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Yeah, first it was Rojo and Jones, then Jones got injured and it was Rojo and Bailly. Rojo then did his cruciate and missed the last month of the season himself.
 
MadDogg said:
Yeah, first it was Rojo and Jones, then Jones got injured and it was Rojo and Bailly. Rojo then did his cruciate and missed the last month of the season himself.
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Yeah, I think he worked better with Jones. I never got the impression with Bailly that he was in control of anything. But Jones and Rojo did have a good thing going for a bit. Made me read up on Jones, working with our u14s and u 18s now (out of interest).
 
Bastian said:
Never sent off whilst at United though.
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Absolute miracle to be honest.

But i think you know what I mean, I would rather someone with slightly less overall ability than an absolutely unpredictable madman capable of mercurial craziness every now and then.
 


I've put the timestamp in.

That tackle against Everton, how the feck did he not get sent off.

I shouldn't laugh because not only is it thoroughly pointless, its sooooo bad its actually funny :lol:
 
Before this season I had Lindelof down as a decent backup. He's been pretty terrible though and I hope he's sold this summer.

Likeable guy but clearly not good enough now.

Ideally Maguire would be sold too. But even if we keep Evans, which I think we should, that would mean we need 3 New CBs. Not easy when we also need 2 CMs and reinforcements up top. Oh, and a LB of course.
 
AfonsoAlves said:
Even so, Lindelof is not worse than Rojo, Blackett, Love, McNair etc. Not by a long shot.
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I would suggest he's talking about first teamers who were expected to be starters, like Lindelof was.
 
The best teams are built through the spine to the defensive partnership. In all our great teams there’s been 2 and laterally 3 centre backs that we could rely upon. And when I say 3 I mean unheralded squad players like Ronnie Johnson and Wes Brown. Hopefully we get 2 for the long term that can compliment and help extend Martinez playing time.
 
Safe to say we've now got three top quality centre backs, albeit two of them fit. The new footballing leadership have done really well in this department over the summer. We were in a terrible state over the last few years when we could not field Varane-Martinez, and now there are rumours about Lindelof being pushed out and Maguire attracting interest.

I wonder if we manage to sell off both Lindelof and Maguire this window if we'll make a late bid for Branthwaite.

I'm going to try to keep this page updated with how the pairings are faring (no rhyme intended).
 
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