British + Irish draft : MJJ vs Barney (Group D)

[crappycraperson]

........................Team MJJ/Nair..................................................................Team Barney/Joga..........................................

MJJ's/Nair's Tactics-

FORMATION 4-4-2 Midfield Diamond

A Strong, Versatile and Flexible team that can change depending on the passage of the game. My team is currently playing 4-4-2 midfield diamond but can easily changing to a 4-3-3 or a 4-4-2 depending on the phases of the game with hoddle and charlton perfectly capable of going wide when needed.

DEFENCE

HARRY GREGG- A survivor of the Munich air crash in February 1958, Gregg was one of the disaster’s great heroes.Having escaped with just a bloody nose, he went back into the wreckage to pull out those who were trapped. He rescued a 20-month-old child, a pregnant woman and attempted to revive Matt Busby.
It wasn't out of character. A real tough nut, Gregg was as vocal, commanding and abrasive as Peter Schmeichel would become three decades later. His bold personality and powerful physique had persuaded Busby to fork out £23,000 – then a world record fee for a goalkeeper – just three months before the crash

My side has a strong defense with Charlton and Thompson as the central defenders and Raisebeck sitting in front of them. Liverpool Skipper Thompson was a brilliant defender at his peak, famously silencing malcolm macdonald and being part of a defense that only conceded 16 goals in 1979. His partner is a world cup winning defender Jack Charlton and one of the finest central defenders produced in the british isles.

Sitting in front of them is Alexandre "The Great" Raisbeck who is widely considered the first star player of Liverpool. Blessed with both physical and technical skills, Raisbeck was extremely quick and opposition forwards rarely had any joy from him. Playing in the centre half position, he is perfect for the modern DM role and will help my side maintain possession and allow the talent of my attackers to flourish.

Spoiler

"Let us recall his characteristics. Tall, lithe, sinuous, and yet gifted with muscular and physical development beyond the ordinary. Active to a degree, speed either on the turn or in flight, and with niche, at the addition of resourcefulness and judgement that would have been all sufficient in a other player, without those added gifts, methodical in training, painstaking in preparation, genial with his players and considerate with his committee. With a perfect blending of the qualities that to make a really great player!

"Raisbeck was wholeheartedly a destroyer of attacks when it came from the opposing wing. We have said that he was speed in turn and on the run. We might amplify this and say, that we have never seen in England, a speedier half-back, who could tackle a speedy forward, turn with him, and overtake and tackle him again. There may be and may have been others so gifted. We have not seen them. His judgement was sound, his valour outstanding and, naturally for a half-back, his control and placing of the ball was equally confident. During his playing career at Anfield, he had to meet forwards whose names and records were outstanding in the history of the game, and yet of one of them could it be said that they were the superior or master of Raisbeck's defensive play. His temperament rarely failed him, no matter how vigorous the play he had to meet.

On the flanks, I have the English Legend Ray Wilson, widely regarded as one of the finest left backs produced. Wilson was renowned for his vision, passing ability and surging runs down the left flank. Interestingly wilson was never booked for a foul till he was 32 and even that was for dissent. Giving one an idea of his pace and positioning.

On his opposite flank is Alf Sherwood or the king of sliding tackles. Sherwood was blessed with pace and positioning sense .Matthews described Sherwood as the most difficult opponent he ever played against.


MIDFIELD

As mentioned earlier Raisbeck is going to be sitting in front of the defense, in front of him will be robson and hoddle.Robson is in his prefferred box to box role and hoddle will be playing in a role that he considers his best position.

At the tip of the diamond is the legend bobby charlton who will have a free role to dominate the game.

Spoiler

B.ROBSON- The greatest box-to-box midfielder of his generation set out a blueprint for future iterations of the all-conquering marauding midfield general in an illustrious 13-season reign at Old Trafford. But what ultimately pushed him beyond the realms of the ordinary was his lung-busting work ethic, dogged determination and unrelenting desire to haul his team toward victory. 'Captain Marvel', as he was known, wouldn't stop until the job was done, and in most cases, he got his way. A hero to a generation of Reds at a time when, even if things didn't go our way, at least we had Robbo.

G.HODDLE -Most gifted English footballers of his generation exhibiting "sublime balance and close control, unrivalled passing and vision and extraordinary shooting ability, both from open play and set pieces"

B.CHARLTON- Regarded as one of the greatest midfieldersof all time, and an essential member of the England team who won theWorld Cupand also won theBallon d'Orin 1966. Well known for his attacking instincts and passing abilities from midfield and his ferocious long-range shot. He was also well known for his fitness and stamina.

Attack-

Spoiler

K.DAGLISH-(Of all the players I have played alongside, managed and coached in more than four decades, he is the most talented.Bob Paisley on Kenny Dalglish)

Supported by Norman Whiteside in striker role-"I felt the excitement that is felt by watching a player of the highest class. He had self-assurance that was extraordinary in a twenty-one year old. The excellence of his technique gave him easy mastery of the ball and he had the gift of making time for himself in the stamp of quality. He was an island of composure, looking up and unhurriedly making his decisions. He rarely surrendered possession and he increased the angle and weight of his passes so well that the receiver never had to fight the ball. His eyes were as cold as steel and he had the temperament to match. As a player he was close to the genius category."

My strikers are Daglish and Whiteside, both talented and hardworking players who are going to dominate most of the back lines. The fact that both are very comfortable on the ball should help my side retain possession as well and by playing a diamond I am allowing B.Charlton to flourish and that should win most games for m.e




SUB : LEE DIXON, PAUL BEARDSLEY & NAT LOFTHOUSE

 

[crappycraperson]

Barney's/Joga's Tactics-

Tactics

DEFENSE

At the heart of our defence we have Ronnie Simpson, Neil Franklin and David O'Leary.

Simpson is one of the finest keepers that Scotland has produced and renowned for being an integral member of the Lisbon Lions. He was a talented, agile shot stopper who was extremely comfortable in possesion and sweeping up in style if needed.

Spoiler: Against Inter

In an European cup final against Inter of all places

Shielding him is an impregnable wall, manned by two two well-rounded centre backs in Neil Franklin and David O'Leary. Neil Franklin's responsibilities lie in ensuring that any aerial threats that pose problems are dealt with and also keeping an eye on the centre forward.

O'Leary is responsible for starting attacks from the back and making sure that the entire team plays on the front foot (which starts from the back). His coolness on the ball and his well-rounded game will ensure that while he will have some responsibility on the ball, he will also be able to defend at the highest level when asked to do so, with his exemplary reading of the game and composed defending.

At right back, Jimmy Armfield will be tasked with not only providing defensive solidity, but also bombing forward and ensuring that there is width when Liddell cuts inside.

In order to cover ourselves against any counter attacks, Scotland legend and versatile left back John Greig will be asked to play a more defensive tucked in role ala Abidal at Barca. We expect both of our full backs to have fairly comfortable roles as MJJ's side is one that lacks natural width. This and Greig playing a defensive role should easily allow Armfield to play a more attacking game while also remaining responsible and solid at the back.

MIDFIELD

In front of our defence and at the heart of our team we have two of the greatest British midfielders of all time. In Graeme Souness and Paul Scholes we have a brilliant combination of steel, guile and creativity. Souness was one of Liverpool's three greatest players in an era where they dominated English football. Souness will be asked to play a slightly more defensive game in order to ensure that we are not found defensively lacking. While he will be tasked with playing a deeper role, he will occasionally be allowed to drive the entire team forward as well as get on the ball in order to utilise his wonderful passing range and creative assets.

In tandem with Souness, Paul Scholes will be playing a deeper playmaking role. Scholes found a lot of success playing this role for Manchester United. The Ginger Prince will dictate the tempo of the game with his supreme spatial awareness and frankly absurd passing range. The Sat Nav's creativity from deep and his trademark 40 yard back-spinned pings will provide chance after chance for our dangerous wingers and they will leave his fullbacks isolated.

On the left wing we have a magician in John Barnes. Arguably Liverpool's most naturally gifted player of all time, allowing this man to have the ball will be suicide. Barnes is capable of creating something out of nothing and can put the chance away himself or put someone else in on goal. His creativity and flair will be vital for us.

Marauding on the right flank, we have Billy Liddell. Liddell will start from a wide position, but will drift centrally and into the box at times in order to help put chances away. Liddell was a two-footed, multi faceted goalscoring forward capable of the utterly sublime and ridiculous forcefulness at the same time. Once he got going, he was an unstoppable force capable of tearing apart any defense on his day. He averaged approximately 1 in 2 playing from a wide position.

FORWARDS

Up front we have the perfect blend of creativity and deadliness. Playing just off of McGrory as a second striker, Kevin Keegan will be wreaking havoc. He'll be in the thick of it, be it dropping deep, aggressivly pressing and driving forcefully forward with his pace, trickery and verve or finishing off a move aplomb himself.

Spearheading the attack we have the human torpedo Jimmy McGrory, a Scottish legend who only needs one chance for the ball to end up in the back of the net and virtually guarantees a goal every start. Having the 8th highest goalscorer and the greatest British goalscorer in the history of the game means that the chances created by Keegan, Barnes, Souness, Scholes, Armfield and Liddell will certainly end up in the back of the net.

Key points

Spoiler: KEY POINTS

1) Great industry, strength and tenacity of our attacking players will give us an edge in most battles. There is no doubting their skill, searing pace or attacking prowess but Keegan, Liddell and Barnes combined it with terrific work rate and physique which would make them a thorn in any defense for the entire 90 mins

2) Kevin Keegan will prove to be a vital influence here. At his peak he finished runner up and won 2 Balon d'Or in 3 years. He was THE driving force for Liverpool and won 3 league trophies, 2 Uefa Cups, an European Cup and a FA cup in his 6 year stay. Keegan then led minnows Hamburg to their first title in 19 years. He was a big game player and has scored in countless finals. This talisman will prove to be a pest in MJJ's team with his superb all-round game.


3)Lack of genuine width and wing threat in MJJ's team will aid us here. His full backs won't have the freedom to venture forward with the threat of Liddell/Armfield and Barnes in their flanks. His numerical advantage in the middle becomes less black and white with Greig tucking in and his midfielders having to help out his full backs to prevent too many dangerous 1 on 1 situations with our irrepressible wingers.

4) His play could become stifled and strangulated with too many centrally oriented players. It also remains to be seen if Sir Bobby Charlton and Kenny Dalglish could work in tandem or end up occupying each others areas. Unless he plays Sir Bobby Charlton on the wings which wasn't his best position imo.

5) The core of the team is as strong and complete as it comes. Franklin, O'Leary, Scholes, Souness, Keegan and heck even our keeper are comfortable in possesion and accomplished passers. This means the team is equally adept at carving open defences and at winning back the ball with its defensive prowess and all round industry.


6) There will be many box to box, roy of the rovers midfielders (and we do sincerely believe we have the best of the lot in the talented Souness) but how many central midfield playmaking maestros of Scholes genius are there really in this draft? Scholes and Souness will dominate and overwhelm just about any midfield. He is also surrounded with intelligent ball players and passers which will only make his task much easier. Scholes providing for Barnes and Liddell is bound to result in something sooner or later even against the sternest of defenses.

Spoiler: Souness tribute

Spoiler: Scholes tribute

 

[crappycraperson]

@MJJ
@Barney
@Joga Bonito
@manikandan nair

 

[Joga Bonito]

Good luck MJJ and manikandan nair.

 

[Jammydodger7]

Two great teams but at first glance I think MJJ's is slightly better!

 

[Joga Bonito]

Couple of points.

Don't see Dalglish and Whiteside being a complementary pairing. Neither Whiteside and Dalglish can be expected to play as a focal point or be expected to spearhead the attack. Both were at home playing in the hole playing off someone and won't have their best games here. Lofthouse's presence, ability to bring others into play and goalscoring prowess will be sorely missed. Not too enamored with Hoddle in that diamond role either.

Hoddle was much more of a creative genius and a luxury player of sorts. He won't be a great fit in the diamond where work rate is essential for it to function. His side also features the overloading Liddell-Armfield duo and he will probably end up struggling with Wilson being rather exposed. Greig's role will facilitate for Armfield's adventurous game so we won't be caught on the counter.

It might seem like we could be overpowered and overwhelmed through the middle at face value but i can assure you that won't be the case.

Greig will play a vital role here and will be tucked in almost like a third cb. Liddell and Barnes will both work their socks off and will not be lazing around on the wings waiting for the ball to come to them. Keegan is up against a great midfielder in Raisbeck but you can always count on him to get himself about and run himself to the ground.

Once again I expect Liddell and Barnes to have a great game with our defense capable of handling his attack

Mjj has a great team brimming with individual quality but I don't think many are utilized in their right positions which would have an effect on the team altogether.

 

[MJJ]

Couple of points.

Don't see Dalglish and Whiteside being a complementary pairing. Neither Whiteside and Dalglish can be expected to play as a focal point or be expected to spearhead the attack. Both were at home playing in the hole playing off someone and won't have their best games here. Lofthouse's presence, ability to bring others into play and goalscoring prowess will be sorely missed. Not too enamored with Hoddle in that diamond role either.

It might seem like we could be overpowered and overwhelmed through the middle at face value but i can assure you that won't be the case.

Greig will play a vital role here and will be tucked in almost like a third cb. Liddell and Barnes will both work their socks off and will not be lazing around on the wings waiting for the ball to come to them. Keegan is up against a great midfielder in Raisbeck but you can always count on him to get himself about and run himself to the ground.

Once again I expect Liddell and Barnes to have a great game with our defense capable of handling his attack

Mjj has a great team brimming with individual quality but I don't think many are utilized in their right positions which would have an effect on the team altogether.

Dont have a lot of time as at work but will address a few of those points here.

• Hoddle himself felt his best position was on the right side of the diamond while at spurs so he is going to do fine here. His passing and dribbling ability will be vital in a wide midfielder-ish role and help me retain possession while defending.
• Daglish and Whiteside might not be lead the line strikers but playing both of them does give me an advantage that it allows charlton to press forward more than he normally would have with daglish dropping deep at times or whiteside going wide with charlton taking there position.
• That brings me to my next point, charlton is the best player on the pitch and is going to wreak havoc between your midfield and defense as souness is more box to box unless souness is operating more defensively in which case my team will starve yours of the ball.
• Mathews described sherwood as his toughest opponent so I dont expect barnes to get a lot of joy down that side particularly with gregg operating as a third cb like you said which will negate a lot of your attacking threat while raisebeck is taking care of keegan.
• In conclusion your side is less likely to create chances since my side is playing possession football so wont get caught out and both my fullbacks are going to be less adventurous thus negating the advantage of scholesy passes.
• Spain won the worldcup without playing a striker or having anyone proving the pace and incision of B.Charlton so I dont see it causing my side too many problems here.

 

[Joga Bonito]

With 2 defensive full backs and a centrally jammed attack without too much pace, your attack is just going to be too one dimensional and I really can't see your strike duo functioning together tbh. Both Whiteside and Dalglish suffered from a severe lack of pace to even stretch play. Your full backs being not adventurous only serves to exacerbate this problem.

Ultimately it's just predictable and leafs to a rather centrally oriented and static attack. I will back my midfield marshalled by Souness and a terrific defensive trio at the back, to keep out that predictable attack no matter how much they hog possession.

No matter how good your full backs are, you are playing a risky game if you are going to leave them 1v1 frequently against speedy and tricky wingers. Let's not forget that they have Scholes of all people, being the supply line quickly spreading the play to them. Hoddle will just be a defensive passenger in a flank which has Armfield and Liddell which is the biggest mismatch of this match imo.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

The debate itself (about Hoddle's suitability) notwithstanding, he STILL doesn't feature in a RIGHT midfield role. He's on the left - as I said last match, I'd much prefer him and Robbo to switch sides.

 

[MJJ]

The debate itself (about Hoddle's suitability) notwithstanding, he STILL doesn't feature in a RIGHT midfield role. He's on the left - as I said last match, I'd much prefer him and Robbo to switch sides.

He is supposed to be on the right..I pmed crappy the correct teamsheet but think he is sleeping.

Can you put this in the OP please.

This is what the teamsheet is supposed to look like

 

[MJJ]

With 2 defensive full backs and a centrally jammed attack without too much pace, your attack is just going to be too one dimensional and I really can't see your strike duo functioning together tbh. Both Whiteside and Dalglish suffered from a severe lack of pace to even stretch play.

Ultimately it's just predictable and leafs to a rather centrally oriented and static attack. I will back my midfield marshalled by Souness and a terrific defensive trio at the back, to keep out that predictable attack no matter how much they hog possession.

No matter how good your full backs are, you are playing a risky game if you are going to leave them 1v1 frequently against speedy and tricky wingers. Let's not forget that they have Scholes of all people, being the supply line quickly spreading the play to them. Hoddle will just be a defensive passenger in a flank which has Armfield and Liddell which is the biggest mismatch of this match imo.

The biggest mismatch imo is no one marking charlton who is going to run riot here, he is playing more in attack then in midfield so am not sure where the lack of pace thing comes from as he is going to be making those runs.

Whiteside and Daglish can work imo as there is plenty of space for both to drift wide and let charlton through who can go wide as well at will.

Daglish,charlton,hoddle are predictable now? All of them are very creative players who can either thread a killerball or dribble there way through not to mention robson behind them who is on par with souness.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

He is supposed to be on the right..I pmed crappy the correct teamsheet but think he is sleeping.




This is what the teamsheet is supposed to look like

Ah - good. Well, I'm sure he'll fix it soon enough. It's not a big deal to those of us who follow the thread pretty closely, of course, but first impressions and all that.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

The point on Charlton is a fair one. Compared to last match - where he had his old chum Nobby shadowing him - he's clearly less shackled here by the looks of it.

 

[Joga Bonito]

Souness and Scholes are playing deep and Charlton wont get a free reign. Plus my centre back trio of sorts allows O'Leary freedom to push up slightly to aid my midfield duo. With Keegan helping out my midfield and 2 workaholic wingers, it will certainly be hard to find space in the middle.

Predictable in the sense that it is too centrally oriented with some players who like Chester said in the previous match can only do a job wide.

 

[MJJ]

Souness and Scholes are playing deep and Charlton wont get a free reign.

Predictable in the sense that it is too centrally oriented with some players who like Chester said in the previous match can do a job wide.

If they are playing deep, how are you going to move the ball forward? Mcgrory was 5ft 6 and keegan 5 ft 8 so who exactly is going to hold the ball up while your wingers rush forward? Unless you are passing the ball to barnes/liddle earlier than the halfway point(Since they are helping out defensively as well so the only players waiting for the ball are the two shorties upfront) and asking them to dribble their way through which I wont advise at all as a viable strategy.

 

[antohan]

Does Mjj have no room for manoeuvre here? (aka, a striker).

And why does he persist with fielding a diamond when that would most likely be a magic square? (Charlton-Hoddle ahead of Raisebeck-Robson). The onlr reason not to show it as what it would wind up being is the unnecessary duplication between Charlton-Hoddle and Whiteside-Dalglish. So long as Charlton goes left and leaves them to it in the middle (WHY? WHY? seriously), they are all pretty much doing the same stuff.

 

[Joga Bonito]

If they are playing deep, how are you going to move the ball forward? Mcgrory was 5ft 6 and keegan 5 ft 8 so who exactly is going to hold the ball up while your wingers rush forward? Unless you are passing the ball to barnes/liddle earlier than the halfway point(Since they are helping out defensively as well so the only players waiting for the ball are the two shorties upfront) and asking them to dribble their way through which I wont advise at all as a viable strategy.

Keegan and McGrory were more than capable of holding the ball and bringing others into play. We aren't solely playing direct footie, it is a blend of possession and direct but more veering towards direct. With Keegan dropping deep, and all of our defensive trio's, Scholes's and Souness's passing skills gives us the ability to retain possession or play possession football when required.

We'd mainly be looking to utilize our wingers though but we aren't a solely direct team dependent on the wing route, even with one as pretty good as ours.

 

[MJJ]

Is there a good website that shows players and the formation they played in? Want to prove something.

 

[Joga Bonito]

@antohan he had Nat Lofthouse a terrific striker who would have made his team function infinitely better IMO. Unfortunately he can't play him due to the 6 English players in the first team rule.

 

[MJJ]

Keegan and McGrory were more than capable of holding the ball and bringing others into play. We aren't solely playing direct footie, it is a blend of possession and direct but more veering towards direct. With Keegan dropping deep, and all of our defensive trio's, Scholes's and Souness's passing skills gives us the ability to retain possession or play possession football when required.

We'd mainly be looking to utilize our wingers though but we aren't a solely direct team dependent on the wing route, even with one as pretty good as ours.

The problem is they wont get the ball though, you have two players who are 5 ft 6 and 5 ft 8 respectively against three players who are 6 ft 3, 6 ft and 5 ft 8(raisebeck but renowned for his athletic ability) since your midfielders are playing deep you have to rely on a more direct passing through the middle and thats a mismatch if I ever saw one.

Does Mjj have no room for manoeuvre here? (aka, a striker).

And why does he persist with fielding a diamond when that would most likely be a magic square? (Charlton-Hoddle ahead of Raisebeck-Robson). The onlr reason not to show it as what it would wind up being is the unnecessary duplication between Charlton-Hoddle and Whiteside-Dalglish. So long as Charlton goes left and leaves them to it in the middle (WHY? WHY? seriously), they are all pretty much doing the same stuff.

I fecked up with the nationality limit, cost me another 30m as well

 

[Chesterlestreet]

Is there a good website that shows players and the formation they played in? Want to prove something.

You're thinking about Hoddle, eh?

I tried to dig up some old formations just now - but getting actual illustrations is a bit difficult.

Just off the top of my head, three famous matches Hoddle featured in, playing what I would call his most obvious role: The two FA Cup finals on the trot in the early 80s and England-Argentina in '86. Hoddle played in the middle of the park as a decidedly offensive midfielder (partnered with a more defensive one), flanked by two designated side midfielders (well, designated and designated - but there you go, wide midfielders at the very least).

1986:

Steven--------Reid--------Hodge

--------------Hoddle------------

Beardo-------Lineker
​

...or something like that.

Anyway - I don't think the argument here should be about whether Hoddle can drift wide or not (certainly he can - why not?), but rather whether that diamond role requires more steel, more defensive nous (more pace, for that matter) than what Hoddle can bring to the table.

He was a brilliant passer, an orchestrator, a decidedly offensive player who worked best when others did the dirty work for him - I don't think that's an unfair characteristic - and so the question becomes whether that is the sort of player you want in this particular role (both given his own limitations and the nature of his teammates here).

 

[MJJ]

Also, not sure why hoddle is getting grief as a right side of a diamond, look at this video. The majority of postions he is taking will be the one he operates in this one.

And his long shots are seriously impressive, think I was underrating his shooting a bit before searching for some videos of him.

 

[Joga Bonito]

The problem is they wont get the ball though, you have two players who are 5 ft 6 and 5 ft 8 respectively against three players who are 6 ft 3, 6 ft and 5 ft 8(raisebeck but renowned for his athletic ability) since your midfielders are playing deep you have to rely on a more direct passing through the middle and thats a mismatch if I ever saw one.

Come on mate. You are talking about 2 exceptionally physical players who can hold their own. McGrory, the 8th highest goalscorer in the history of the game, had scored a third of his goals with his head. He was built like a proper tank.

Keegan well...

Need I say more?

They most certainly won't be bullied or struggle physically. They are extremely gifted athletically.

 

[Joga Bonito]

The problem is they wont get the ball though, you have two players who are 5 ft 6 and 5 ft 8 respectively against three players who are 6 ft 3, 6 ft and 5 ft 8(raisebeck but renowned for his athletic ability) since your midfielders are playing deep you have to rely on a more direct passing through the middle and thats a mismatch if I ever saw one.

Come on mate. You are talking about 2 exceptionally physical players who can hold their own. McGrory, the 8th highest goalscorer in the history of the game, had scored a third of his goals with his head. He was built like a proper tank.

Keegan well...

Need I say more?

They most certainly won't be bullied or struggle physically. They are extremely gifted athletically.

 

[MJJ]

You're thinking about Hoddle, eh?

I tried to dig up some old formations just now - but getting actual illustrations is a bit difficult.

Just off the top of my head, three famous matches Hoddle featured in, playing what I would call his most obvious role: The two FA Cup finals on the trot in the early 80s and England-Argentina in '86. Hoddle played in the middle of the park as a decidedly offensive midfielder (partnered with a more defensive one), flanked by two designated side midfielders (well, designated and designated - but there you go, wide midfielders at the very least).

1986:

Steven--------Reid--------Hodge

--------------Hoddle------------

Beardo-------Lineker
​

...or something like that.

Anyway - I don't think the argument here should be about whether Hoddle can drift wide or not (certainly he can - why not?), but rather whether that diamond role requires more steel, more defensive nous (more pace, for that matter) than what Hoddle can bring to the table.

He was a brilliant passer, an orchestrator, a decidedly offensive player who worked best when others did the dirty work for him - I don't think that's an unfair characteristic - and so the question becomes whether that is the sort of player you want in this particular role (both given his own limitations and the nature of his teammates here).

Ahh, thanks. Yeah I was trying to find formation of him playing otu wide settled for a formation. I think with robson and raisebeck there, I can afford to play him in a wid-ish right role and exploit his passing ability from that range. I have an extra man in the middle so can afford to play soemeone like hoddle in that role and his passing will be valuable in initiating counter attacks with that flank being more aggressive as well thus leaving more holes. I have raisebeck to cover my flanks if needed and ofcourse both all three of my forwards are hardworking players who didnt mind a tackle so can afford to play a passenger of sort in hoddle.

 

[MJJ]

Come on mate. You are talking about 2 exceptionally physical players who can hold their own. McGrory, the 8th highest goalscorer in the history of the game, had scored a third of his goals with his head. He was built like a proper tank.

Keegan well...

Need I say more?

They most certainly won't be bullied or struggle physically. They are extremely gifted athletically.

Errr thanks for that I think.

The problem is that they are up against players who are just as gifted athletically by all reports, now if the ball was played to their feet then obviously I wouldnt be questioning their holdup play but if the ball is in the air then obviously height matters a lot. And if your central midfielders are playing deep then obviously the ball will be passed higher in the air where height plays the key role. a 6 ft 3 against a 5 ft 6 is a mismatch no matter how much of a tank the latter is when the ball is in the air.

 

[Joga Bonito]

Errr thanks for that I think.

The problem is that they are up against players who are just as gifted athletically by all reports, now if the ball was played to their feet then obviously I wouldnt be questioning their holdup play but if the ball is in the air then obviously height matters a lot. And if your central midfielders are playing deep then obviously the ball will be passed higher in the air where height plays the key role. a 6 ft 3 against a 5 ft 6 is a mismatch no matter how much of a tank the latter is when the ball is in the air.

You seriously can't be questioning McGrory's heading ability. He had a phenomenal leap(nicknamed Human Torpedo) and is amongst the best headers of the British game ever amongst Dean and Lawton.

The passing ability of my defenders, Scholes and Souness also means that they will be measured balls finding my forwards in space and not hopeful punts forward for them to challenge. Even then it won't be a mismatch as we have one of the most physical forward line in the draft with Barnes, Keegan, Liddell and McGrory who will not be easy to contain

 

[antohan]

Also, not sure why hoddle is getting grief as a right side of a diamond, look at this video. The majority of postions he is taking will be the one he operates in this one.

And his long shots are seriously impressive, think I was underrating his shooting a bit before searching for some videos of him.

I don't think anyone would question Hoddle as a right attacking midfielder, he does fulfil the "on the ball" part of that role. I think what people are questioning is him in the "without the ball" aspect of that role.

 

[MJJ]

You seriously can't be questioning McGrory's heading ability. He had a phenomenal leap(nicknamed Human Torpedo) and is amongst the best headers of the British game ever amongst Dean and Lawton.

The passing ability of my defenders, Scholes and Souness also means that they will be measured balls finding my forwards in space and not hopeful punts forward for them to challenge. Even then it won't be a mismatch as we have one of the most physical forward line in the draft with Barnes, Keegan, Liddell and McGrory who will not be easy to contain

I am actually given the fact that humans are generally getting taller and he played in the 1900s. I can question how he will fare against defenders who have 6 and 9 inches on him! Its near impossible to make up that height difference. Keegan is going to be up against raisebeck so wont have an easy task as he is supposed to be extremely physical as well while your wingers as you have said will be helping defensively so wont be staying up to receive the ball.

I don't think anyone would question Hoddle as a right attacking midfielder, he does fulfil the "on the ball" part of that role. I think what people are questioning is him in the "without the ball" aspect of that role.

I think I should be fine there given that I have raisebeck and robson alongside him so should be able to cover for his lack of defensive skills.

 

[antohan]

@antohan he had Nat Lofthouse a terrific striker who would have made his team function infinitely better IMO. Unfortunately he can't play him due to the 6 English players in the first team rule.

Eh? The reason I mentioned the square earlier is it better aligns with how he is set up defensively and in attack.

----Charlton-----Hoddle
----Raisebeck---Robson

What calls for a striker is the excess of AMing/support-strikery going around:

----Whiteside---Dalglish
----Charlton-----Hoddle
----Raisebeck---Robson

If Lofthouse's problem is being English, then the one that goes is Hoddle, not Lofthouse. and you drop Dalglish where Hoddle is. No?

 

[MJJ]

In 1900 a typical male was 5ft 6in tall, but by 2000 that had gone up to 5ft 10in. Over the same time women have grown by one-and-a-half inches, from just under 5ft 3in to just over 5ft 4in.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencet...-4-inches-taller-100-years.html#ixzz3LItcxVk3
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

So how much of those headed goals were against defenders equal to his height compared to players who are almost a foot taller than him?

 

[antohan]

if the ball is in the air then obviously height matters a lot.

Zamorano and Sanchez were relative midgets. Height is an indicator, but not the be all and end all. For my money, Keegan held his own, and from what we've read (from Joga, granted) McGrory did as well.

 

[Annahnomoss]

I think that MJJ would look more dangerous here if he used the 58-59~[until 61] Charlton who was an incredible goal scoring threat, even if it wasn't peak Charlton of course. He scored more that season, with his 29 in the league, than Dalglish and Whiteside ever did in a season. Whiteside especially wasn't much of a goal scorer.

Think it would solve that lack of goal up front at least.

 

[MJJ]

Zamorano and Sanchez were relative midgets. Height is an indicator, but not the be all and end all. For my money, Keegan held his own, and from what we've read (from Joga, granted) McGrory did as well.

Zamorano was 5 ft 10 while sanchez was 5 ft 9, am pretty sure neither of them had to make up 9 inches against a defender. I understand height isnt a be all but its a very powerful advantage, and given the height difference I would back charlton to win the ball 9/10. There is a limit to how high one can jump.

 

[Joga Bonito]

I am actually given the fact that humans are generally getting taller and he played in the 1900s. I can question how he will fare against defenders who have 6 and 9 inches on him! Its near impossible to make up that height difference. Keegan is going to be up against raisebeck so wont have an easy task as he is supposed to be extremely physical as well while your wingers as you have said will be helping defensively so wont be staying up to receive the ball. I think I should be fine there given that I have raisebeck and robson alongside him so should be able to cover for his lack of defensive skills.

In that era most of the centre backs he squared up against were old fashioned stoppers who had to be impeccable in the air and were probably the tallest players in the team. Esp given that they faced target men, prevalent in that era as opposed to mobile technical forwards, who were a great threat aerially. I would say McGrory would probably have scored more headed goals in this era with defenders generally being more technically adept and less accomplished aerially despite their height advantage relative to their predecessors.

 

[MJJ]

In that era most of the centre backs he squared up against were old fashioned stoppers who had to be impeccable in the air and were probably the tallest players in the team. Esp given that they faced target men who were a grear threat aerially. I would say McGrory would probably have scored more goals in this era with defenders generally being more technically adept and less accomplished aerially despite their height advantage relative their predecessors.

Given the average height was 5 ft 6, I doubt there were too many defenders who were taller than 6 ft but will agree to disagree on this point as neither of us have sufficient data about the defenders back then.

Luckily am playing with two old-fashioned defnders

 

[Chesterlestreet]

Eh? The reason I mentioned the square earlier is it better aligns with how he is set up defensively and in attack.

----Charlton-----Hoddle
----Raisebeck---Robson

What calls for a striker is the excess of AMing/support-strikery going around:

----Whiteside---Dalglish
----Charlton-----Hoddle
----Raisebeck---Robson

If Lofthouse's problem is being English, then the one that goes is Hoddle, not Lofthouse. and you drop Dalglish where Hoddle is. No?

Or...you could play Whiteside deeper. Whiteside played alongside Robbo, as a CM/AM in Big Ron's later sides (with Strachan on the right and Olsen on the left). Could go for a highly specialized formation, something like this:

Spoiler: No Hoddle

Charlton free to roam wide if he pleases - Kenny in his usual role and a proper CF up front.

Or - if one insists on using Hoddle - drop Robbo down (not ideal but not utterly crazy either - more of an old and grizzled Robbo) and go with something like this:

Spoiler: With Hoddle

None of it ideal, obviously - but still.

 

[antohan]

Zamorano was 5 ft 10 while sanchez was 5 ft 9, am pretty sure neither of them had to make up 9 inches against a defender. I understand height isnt a be all but its a very powerful advantage, and given the height difference I would back charlton to win the ball 9/10. There is a limit to how high one can jump.

I don't know anything about this inches system, but in terms of height there wasn't much relevant difference between Sanchez and Keegan. It may be the fantastic 70s hair (well, actually, Hugo did have his own afro) but if anything I would say Keegan had a stronger build.

All this amounts to is: "Jack Charlton was really tall".

 

[MJJ]

I don't know anything about this inches system, but in terms of height there wasn't much relevant difference between Sanchez and Keegan. It may be the fantastic 70s hair (well, actually, Hugo did have his own afro) but if anything I would say Keegan had a stronger build.

All this amounts to is: "Jack Charlton was really tall".

Yeah, was talking about mcgrory there really since keegan is going to be playing closer to midfield but like I said above, have made my point regarding height so will stop now.

 

[antohan]

Or...you could play Whiteside deeper. Whiteside played alongside Robbo, as a CM/AM in Big Ron's later sides (with Strachan on the right and Olsen on the left). Could go for a highly specialized formation, something like this:

Spoiler: No Hoddle

Charlton free to roam wide if he pleases - Kenny in his usual role and a proper CF up front.

Or - if one insists on using Hoddle - drop Robbo down (not ideal but not utterly crazy either - more of an old and grizzled Robbo) and go with something like this:

Spoiler: With Hoddle

None of it ideal, obviously - but still.

The first one isn't a bad call at all. Whiteside was a leftie though, wasn't he? Would probably swap him with Robbo there.