Billy No Mates Draft: SF - Joga/Gio vs Invictus/Theon

[Physiocrat]

Joga/Gio

The side executes a flawless transition into a formidable 3-5-2, with the perfect defensive set-up, a powerhouse of an engine room and a attack featuring one Diego Maradona. The team's defensive game is further taken up a notch by the integration of the final jigsaw piece in our defense - the consummate libero Gaetano Scirea. The classy yet charismatic Italian was simultaneously the side's defensive marshall at the back, whilst being the orchestrator from deep. Not many could see the game unfold as Scirea did. Frank Rijkaard's insertion into midfield further reinforces the fortress at the back, on top of providing an injection of genuine class and technical ingenuity.

(Players names have been hyperlinked to videos for those interested)

THE BACK LINE

The 'Iron Curtain' Rinat Dasayev was a phenomenal shot-stopper famed for his gravity defying acrobatics, and his shrewd distribution paved the way for his team's rapid counters, whilst providing a great base for build-up play. The quintessential libero, Gaetano Scirea takes reins over the defensive unit, providing a near impregnable presence at the back with his peerless reading of the game, immaculate positioning and incredible tact on the ball. His WC final master-class was a classic illustration of his duality - snuffing out the German attack and playing an integral role in 2 of Italy's goals.

Ill Capitano Giacinto Facchetti was the prototype of the perfect attacking wing-back but also an immense presence defensively - his towering 6 foot presence capable of blasting the 100m mark at 10.7 seconds. Almost single-handedly manning his flanks, he was a revolutionary figure at the back who held the fort for two of the greatest defensive sides to ever grace the game - captaining them to European Cups, a Euros triumph and a WC Final. Very few full-backs have the defensive system of the entire team built around them, but then again Facchetti was truly special - one of the only two FBs in the history of the game to have finished as runners-up in the Ballon d'Or

Totaalvoetbal connoisseur Ruud Krol, was the defensive cornerstone of the 1970s Ajax/Dutch vintage and he was truly a complete presence at his back with his tactical nous and defensive ability - in addition to being a classy operator on the ball. Krol is tailor made for this LCB role and he excelled both as a FB and as CB - winning 3 European cups and making the WC Final as a FB; and as a CB leading Netherlands to the WC Final being their best player, establishing himself in the elite batch of CBs who finished in the podium of the ballon d'Or and of course winning the Guerin d'Oro (POTY) in an absurdly stingy Serie A.

Defensive rock Lilian Thuram was the epitome of stopper play, and few mastered the defensive arts like the Frenchman did. Being a pivotal presence at the back, he was at the heart of France's WC and Euros win, in addition to bagging several trophies for Juventus. It takes some doing to win the WC bronze ball and the Guerin d'Oro in a star studded Serie A as a stopper. Similar to Krol, he is a match made in heaven for the RCB role, excelling both as a FB and as a CB, in addition to playing this very role for Parma. 'The Lion' Eric Gerets was a talismanic figure for both club and country, captaining PSV to the European Cup, the Belgian 'Golden Generation' to a best ever top 4 finish in the WC - in addition to making the Euros 1980 final. His tireless running and dogged defending makes him a force to be reckoned with on the right flank.

All our defenders have captained their teams to a European Cup and/or a World Cup Final except for poor Thuram who has also captained both club and country at times.

ENGINE ROOM

The greatest defensive midfielder ever, Frank Rjkaard was an indomitable figure at the heart of several great teams. He was THE complete package, a 'universalist' to quote Sacchi - equally proficient at breaking plays, striding forward powerfully and playing defense splitting balls. Truly a giant of the game and a force of nature. Paul Breitner was a fearsome behemoth whose concoction of tigerish combative qualities and technical brilliance, made for a truly potent brew. His tireless running and ferocious tackling enabled him to break up opposition attacks, but when play swirled towards the other end, he would be there again, slipping through intelligent passes and often finding the net himself - averaging a near 1 in 2 record at his peak.

Both these midfield dynamos finished in the top 3 of the ballon d'Or, which is a remarkable feat for central midfielders.


OFFENSE

At the epicentre of it all is one Diego Armando Maradona. Possessing an elemental mastery of the ball which bordered on obscene, el Pibe's unrivalled repertoire of skills were as dazzling as they were lethal. Maradona once exclaimed “I seemed to be able to leave everyone behind.” He may as well have been talking about football history. Stoichkov was the perfect blend of flair and ruthlessness. He was just as likely to fashion something out of that lovely left peg of his as he was to pounce on a minor defensive error in brutal fashion. He was as complete an attacker as it could get - physically, technically and most importantly, mentally. It’s saying something when you’re described as a “key player” in Barcelona’s history and the “missing piece of the jigsaw” in their most historic moment.

Mighty Magyar Ferenc feckin Puskas was a great in every sense of the word. The 4th highest goalscorer in the history of the game, outstanding numbers like that, to a certain degree, defined Puskas’s career - 84 goals in 85 caps for Hungary, 240 in 260 games for Real, 165 in 164 for Honved, 7 goals in 2 European Cup finals, 35 in 39 European Cup games etc. Except it would, of course, do Puskas a huge disservice to reduce his career to mere goals. In the 1950s, he was the “star of stars” as Brian Glanville wrote - “he had superb control, supreme strategy and above all a left-footed shot which was unrivalled in the world, dangerous from any distance up to 35 yards.” An awe-inspiring presence on the pitch, the Hungarian was truly a forward of the highest calibre.

Key Features

• I/T's MIDFIELD DYNAMICS and SAMMER'S ROLE

In this company, Sammer's midfield career is steady but unremarkable. In fact if it wasn't for his fantastic performances at libero for both Borussia Dortmund and Germany at Euro '96, he wouldn't be a part of the draft. The move from midfield to libero changed his career. We understand Invictus and Theon have attempted to get around that by giving Sammer a free-ish midfield role to do what he sees fit, which is fair enough.

However, here he and Redondo face Rijkaard and Breitner: a battle we should have the edge in. Throw in the presence of Maradona and the fact that Sammer's in a top heavy side with a fairly lackadaisical forward line, Sammer simply doesn't have the base or freedom to do what he wants - he'll have to sit and anchor and hope he can keep up with the great Diego. And that's not a job him, or Redondo for that matter, are well suited to.

• GAINING THE EDGE

Spoiler: Gaining the Edge

I/T's primary playmaker has to contend with the greatest defensive midfielder ever in Rijkaard, their centre forward against a Scirea marshalled defense, Messi in the zone patrolled by Facchetti & Krol and finally, Ronaldo meets his perfect match in Thuram. Well, the game's more fluid than that and it won't be that simplistic but we do believe we are better suited to dealing with his attack, relatively, as opposed to him handling our midfield or Maradona for that matter.

That central core of Rijkaard-Breitner-Maradona is amongst the greatest ever in draft history and it is simply as good as it gets. I do think we can wrestle control of midfield and provide the ideal platform for Maradona to shine. There's a lot to like about Invictus/Theon team but I can see our central core perfectly poised in leaving their mark at the epicentre - against Sammer in a questionable role, Redondo who's ill equipped in dealing with Maradona, and Platini who will find it tough going against Rijkaard.

Realistically speaking, neither sides are going to keep a clean sheet here but I believe our defense squares up fairly well against their attack, and that the match would be won in midfield and of course, when the ball's in Maradona's court.

Good luck Invictus & Theon

Joga/Gio

Invictus/Theon

Tactical change 2009

Subs - Gento, Stam, Cole, Jorginho.

Spoiler: Original Formation

 

[Physiocrat]

INVICTUS/THEON

Changed OP at 2016.

​

FORMATION

A fluid and natural 4-2-3-1 built around Europe's greatest midfielder ever in Michel Platini and a devastating attack which is balanced and multi-faceted - with all three forwards scoring a goal a game in their best four seasons.

The team will play a medium to high defence line, looking to control the game in midfield and limit the space for Joga/ Gio's narrow attack. The back four all possessed excellent pace whilst Neuer is the modern day gold-standard when it comes to rushing out and sweeping up behind a defense.

On the flanks Ronaldo and Messi will stretch the opposition defense inside out and limit the ability of their wingbacks to get forward, whilst centrally the 6'2" Van Basten provides a physical presence, world class hold up play and a constant threat running in behind the defense.

The glue holding the attack together is the three time Ballon d'Or winning Michel Platini, the creative hub of the side and one of the best passers in the history of the game. Any attempt to use dedicated markers on Platini will create space elsewhere - which is prime to be exploited by Messi/Ronaldo/Van Basten in attack.

DEFENCE

The center of defense comprises of two of the greatest centerbacks in football history - Fabio Cannavaro remains only the third defender to ever win a Ballon d'or; whilst Elías Figueroa stands out as the best defender to ever come from South America, and is arguably the best pure defender in the history of the game.

"Figueroa and Beckenbauer have been the only centre backs who are better than me in Football History".

Daniel Pasarella

"If Figueroa would have won a World Cup would be the best defender in the history."

Pelé

“I am the European Figueroa

Franz Beckenbauer

On the flanks both fullbacks are well rounded and have experience tucking in defensively, which is well suited against a narrow attack. On the right, the peerless Carlos Alberto forms the base of the most dangerous flank in the draft - venturing forward in support of Messi and utilising his fantastic passing/crossing ability in possession. Defensively Carlos Alberto forms the perfect shield against an Facchetti - already heavily burdened dealing with Lionel Messi and Joga's sole source of width on the left.

MIDFIELD

In midfield we will strive to control the flow of the game through the Platini-Redondo-Sammer axis - all capable of dictating the game in midfield. The most important role on the pitch is given to our captain, Matthias Sammer, who will patrol the area in front of the defense, limiting the space for Diego Maradona and pressing him in possession.

Much will be made about Sammer's role from the opposition, but the fact remains that the characteristics of Sammer's role remain the same despite it being a four man defence - In this position Sammer can still break forward from deep, dictate play from defence, press opposition attackers, track runners and drop into the defensive line.

Within the framework of our team Sammer has complete freedom to help out defensively and offensively as he feels fit. Fluidly transitioning between roles, he will be exactly where he needs to be - and is one of the only players in the draft capable of going up against Maradona.

His partner Fernando Redondo is without question the greatest central midfielder of the last 25 years. The heart beat of Real Madrid in the late 90's - he combined fantastic technical ability with defensive solidity in a way that virtually no midfielder has matched since.

Fernando Redondo is perhaps the most complete defensive midfielder to have graced a football pitch. He could pull strings in any side against any opposition. Helping out in defence, contributing in attack, he remained omnipresent.

He was strong as granite, adding bite and muscle in the Madrid midfield bringing in his steely brutal winning mentality on the pitch too.

As a footballer Fernando Redondo was the ultimate paradox — a powerful midfield destroyer, yet still elegantly creative. Without question the most complete midfielder in the world and at the peak of his powers.

Redondo comprehensively outmanoeuvred United’s midfield in a manner which nobody could at the time. The most feared midfield quartet in Europe were not only contained but given a master class in ball retention and midfield orchestration by the Argentine. Roy Keane had never been so thoroughly dominated in a single game, especially not this Roy Keane, at the physical peak of his career.

Roaming throughout the midfield is the 3 time Ballon D'Or winning Michel Platini - the best midfielder to ever come out of Europe. Technically flawless and amongst the most accomplished ball players in the history of the game, Platini also offers a goal threat from midfield which is virtually unmatched in European football - scoring over 25 goals in ten separate seasons rrom midfeld, at his peak scoring 82 goals in 139 games for Juventus in the extremely defensive 1980's Serie A.

​

ATTACK

The attack is well rounded and completely impossible to defend against - In their best four seasons all three average one goal every game, with Messi scoring 244 goals in 222 games, Ronaldo scoring 227 goals in 211 games and Van Basten scoring 129 goals in 130 games.

Tactically all four are a perfect fit - Van Basten will stretch the field vertically, whilst Ronaldo and Messi stretch Joga's back line horizontally. All three have a proven record ceding possession to the sides playmaker - in this case is Michel Platini - and have a proven ability to play alongside other top tier attackers.

The most important role tactically will be the physical and well rounded Van Basten - the greatest target striker in football and the spearhead of our attack. His role will be to occupy Joga's centre backs with his unrivalled blend of aerial prowess, hold up play and technical ability - creating room for Platini/Messi/Ronaldo in central areas and offering a constant threat in behind the defence.

​

“Injuries cut him down when he was in the best form of his career, spearheading Fabio Capello’s new and rejuvenated Milan side. Yet by then, Marco had already done enough to perhaps be regarded as the greatest number nine there’s ever been.”

Ronald Koeman

“He was elegance personified. He could score in millions of different ways and always with an unbelievable touch of class. He had no weak points – he was completely two-footed, and he was strong with his head, but he didn’t just score goals, he also created many, many assists.”

Marcel Desailly

“Marco was the greatest centre forward that I’ve ever trained. Marco remains the greatest in his role. It was such a shame that he was forced to retire at 28. It was a mortal misfortune for him, for football, and for Milan.”

Fabio Capello

On the left Cristiano Ronaldo doesn't need to see a lot of the ball - reaching his peak at Madrid in a role with an emphasis on offensive movement and goals. Scoring at an average of 50+ goals per season, he will look to combine with Platini and overwhelm Gerets on the right flank.

To round things off we have Lionel Messi - the greatest footballer of our generation. Throughout his career Messi has shown the ability to function perfectly alongside top attackers and midfield architects who want to get on the ball - such as Suarez/Neymar or Xavi/Iniesta. He will drift in from his favoured inside right position and drive at Joga's back line, dragging defenders out of position and slipping in passes to Van Basten and Ronaldo.

Original Write-Up for Invictus and Theon can be found on this page below.​

 

[Physiocrat]

@Gio @Joga Bonito @Invictus @Theon

 

[Physiocrat]

@Rado_N

Public poll please, votes visible and changeable, 24 hrs.

Joga/Gio wins by 1 goal
Joga/Gio wins by 2 goals
Joga/Gio wins by 3 goals
Invictus/Theon wins by 1 goal
Invictus/Theon wins by 2 goals
Invictus/Theon wins by 3 goals

 

[Rado_N]

Added.

 

[The Stain]

Invictus/Theon claim to have a impregnable defense and are looking to control the midfield.

I think Joga will control the midfield and his team is set up in a perfect way to counter the oppositions threats. Will wait for discussion but leaning towards Joga/Gio in what would be a free-scoring match. Should be close.

 

[Invictus]

KEY TALKING POINTS

PUSKAS

• Puskás was anything but a striker suited for this setup, despite what his goal record might indicate. He loved to drop deep and get on the ball - exhibiting his technique, vision and firing long rangers. All this when he had outside attacking threats to consistently stretch the field such as Gento and Czibor.

• Given the narrowness of the attack and playmaking ability in midfield, Joga's team was crying out for a spearhead of sorts (like Kocsis for Hungary). Puskas can certainly play that role of the pure, line leading number 9 - but it doesnt get the best out of him and doesnt suit his all round game.

• Indeed as Joga noted in a previous draft, someone like Van Basten is a much better striker to bring an attack like this together - he'll lead the line, push defenders back, hold up play and offer a constant threat running behind the defence.

Besides my main point about the Platini-Garrincha-Puskas trio was that I can't see them functioning cohesively together. They do not complement each other, simply put.

Puskas is not the right striker for this set up. He's not the leading striker that you'd want in this set up tactically. I actually had the chance to go for Müller and Puskas in reinforcements but went for van Basten with the former two being better individuals, simply because Van Basten was the best tactical fit (without compromising a discernible amount of quality).

LACK OF WIDTH

• Overall, the team is one that is severely lacking in width, which is a problem against a compact and solid defensive core. Attacks become predicatable and it is significantly harder to break through a back line when the defence doesnt get stretched.

• In a narrow system, wing-backs and certain forwards drifting wide to provide conventional width is absolutely critical. However given that Facchetti and Gerets are up against Messi and Ronaldo their ability to get forward will be severely limited.

• Facchetti is one of the best wingbacks in football - but he is up against an equally exceptional fullback in Carlos Alberto and any attacks will be well matched by the Brazilian. It goes without saying that whilst Facchetti is an effective attacking outlet for a fullback, he possesses nothing like the offensive threat of a proper forward and Messi will cause him significantly more problems than Facchetti will pose the other end.

THREE MAN DEFENCE AGAINST A SINGLE STRIKER - 3-5-2 VS 4-2-3-1

• One of the biggest disadvantages of having a 3 man defense is coming up against a lone striker - as there are three central defenders with only one player to mark. With Messi and Ronaldo starting from wide positions, Krol and Thuram will be dragged out wide which can create gaps centrally for Van Basten and Platini to exploit.

• The 3-5-2 is reliant heavily on the wingbacks to provide width - indeed one of the reasons that 3-5-2 is so rarely used nowadays is the advance of the 4-2-3-1 formation, in which wingers pin back the opposition wingbacks and devoid the team of width going forward.

 

[harms]

I was honest in our game - I still dislike Sammer's role here.

 

[Šjor Bepo]

what version of Cristiano is playing?

 

[Invictus]

in what would be a free-scoring match.

Fail to see how the opposition will score in a free fashion.

Stoichkov's highest ever goal tally was 24 goals in 48 games.
Similar ratio for Maradona.
And they have a central attack with overlaps that won't stretch our defense at all.

And we've bolstered our defense with someone who the opposition rates as one of the 3 best central defenders ever (comparable to Baresi - to quote). On top of arguably the best rightback/ wight wingback ever, Cannavaro who was a marvelous marker, and Briegel who can tuck in.

 

[The Stain]

Fail to see how the opposition will score in a free fashion.

Stoichkov's highest ever goal tally was 24 goals in 48 games.
Similar ratio for Maradona.
And they have a central attack with overlaps that won't stretch our defense at all.

And we've bolstered our defense with someone who the opposition rates as one of the 3 best central defenders ever (comparable to Baresi - to quote). On top of arguably the best rightback/ wight wingback ever, Cannavaro who was a marvelous marker, and Briegel who can tuck in.

Both teams. Yes, you have more goals in your side but i feel the opposition is more well balanced and will see more of the ball.

I don't see how you'll stop Maradona. As much as i love Redondo; i don't see him and Sammer (in a weird role) being able to stop the threat of Maradona, Joga's midfield+Scirea.

If you played a 4-3-3 with Sammer as libero/DM and relied on counters i'd vote you in a hurry. Don't know how well Platini would work in a duo with Redondo but hopefully someone can give judgement of that.

 

[Joga Bonito]

Invictus/Theon claim to have a impregnable defense and are looking to control the midfield.

I think Joga will control the midfield and his team is set up in a perfect way to counter the oppositions threats. Will wait for discussion but leaning towards Joga/Gio in what would be a free-scoring match. Should be close.

Precisely what we stated in the OP under the point of Gaining the Edge in spoilers. We believe our defense is perfectly well set-up to counter his attack and we are well poised in gaining the edge at the core. Most importantly they won't be able to deal with Maradona, to the same extent we've done with his forwards and Platini imo.

I was honest in our game - I still dislike Sammer's role here.

Aye, don't quite think it's a great use of him tbh.

break forward from deep, dictate play from defense, press opposition attackers, track runners and drop into the defensive line when he needs to.

I mean if Sammer had two imposing midfielders providing the legs, allowing him to 'drop into the defensive line' and influence play or 'break forward from deep', then fine but how is a midfield duo of Redondo and Platini, with Ronaldo and Messi doing zilch to help the midfield, conducive for that? Just look at our games with Monti and how we provided him with the ideal base for the SWP/DM role - a midfield duo of Breitner & Tardelli supporting him and holding the midfield when Monti dropped deep and a defensive duo of Krol-Thuram who could easily transition into side centre backs when Monti dropped deep. Redondo himself wasn't exactly a super dynamic defensive powerhouse either and even a lesser player like Tardelli could have been a more suitable support for Sammer in this role - even that alone wouldn't have been enough, with Platini there of course. Essentially you'd want Sammer in that midfield to stay put, provide the legs and hold the fort like a limited DM (providing some much needed balance for that top-heavy team) and you'd much rather have a Desailly/Varela for that role.

So as per the situational constraints, they have to play Sammer in a limited DM role, where he isn't all that great and if Invictus/Theon still insist on playing him in his current role - then they've heavily compromised on the whole dynamic of the team imo. With a top heavy attack who will do zilch tracking back and Sammer in a 'free role' of sorts without the base to play that role, and Redondo left holding everything in the middle, it's a wee bit dysfunctional imo.

 

[crappycraperson]

Thuram as RCB is one of the best options you can have to counter Ronaldo in Joga's system. Fachetti vs Messi is also a good match up.

Joga's has perhaps the best set up for Diego to shine and do his thing, except may be the 2 forwards. Not sure if you want that combo in front of Diego.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

Hm. Krol strikes me as a bit of an odd choice there just glancing over the teams.

Not saying what's stated isn't technically speaking correct: No reason to doubt he'd handle that LCB role very well. Still, you'd normally say Krol as a central defender (rather than a side back, that is) excelled in a role much more like Scirea's than that of a side-kick/clean-up act of the kind you'd usually field in the sort of set-up we see here.

Again, I'm not dismissing it - I'm just pointing out what I'm sure others will find a bit striking as well.

My other impression is that Invictus/Theon have the best and most tactically perfect team ever assembled. According to themselves.

 

[Balu]

My other impression is that Invictus/Theon have the best and most tactically perfect team ever assembled. According to themselves.

Regarding Krol as left sideback: I kinda agree that it looks a bit odd, but I think the leftback version of him is a damn good fit to play that role, much more than the older centerback/sweeper/libero version of him. But then, I'm one of the few who thinks that Krol wasn't as much an attacking leftback as his reputation wants you to believe and I actually questioned Joga's choice of Krol as a left wingback in his first game. Similar to Maldini, who was also surprisingly good going forward under Sacchi for a fullback of his kind, Krol still was foremost a quality defender with great ability on the ball. He did often tuck inside at Ajax and cover for others and Suurbier was the more attacking fullback of the two.

 

[Joga Bonito]

Thuram as RCB is one of the best options you can have to counter Ronaldo in Joga's system. Fachetti vs Messi is also a good match up.

Joga's has perhaps the best set up for Diego to shine and do his thing, except may be the 2 forwards. Not sure if you want that combo in front of Diego.

I reckon the key thing with El Pibe is that he absolutely loved playing alongside with 2 other complete and/or mobile forwards (Valdano & Burruchaga/ Careca & Giordano/ Carrasco at Barca) etc. In a 3-5-2, your forwards have more freedom than most with a solid base which gives them the perfect platform. Which was one of the prime reasons we went for Puskas, who'd probably wouldn't be at home in a spearheading role up top in a 4-3-3 for example, and in Stoichkov we have the perfect wing-forward who was absolutely lethal at making those 'dagger' like runs from the wing or the channels. His ability to find space and brutally capitalise on those minute gaps left behind by defenders was nothing short of phenomenal - always arriving at the right place at the right time.



We believe it's a fantastic blend of Maradona's ability as the all-conquering orchestrator, Stoichkov's as the probing dagger and Puskas's phenomenal goalscoring and technical expertise.

Hm. Krol strikes me as a bit of an odd choice there just glancing over the teams.

Not saying what's stated isn't technically speaking correct: No reason to doubt he'd handle that LCB role very well. Still, you'd normally say Krol as a central defender (rather than a side back, that is) excelled in a role much more like Scirea's than that of a side-kick/clean-up act of the kind you'd usually field in the sort of set-up we see here.

Again, I'm not dismissing it - I'm just pointing out what I'm sure others will find a bit striking as well.

My other impression is that Invictus/Theon have the best and most tactically perfect team ever assembled. According to themselves.

Balu's summed up my thoughts perfectly - he was as versatile and intelligent as they came. In fact Cruyff had him as his left side back in a 3-4-3 all time team for example - a formation he absolutely loved to bits as a manager. Not that it means much as most of these all-time formations by legends do sorely lack in balance, but yeah Krol does seem like an excellent fit for the LCB role with his versatility, tactical nous and athleticism.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

But then, I'm one of the few who thinks that Krol wasn't as much an attacking leftback as his reputation wants you to believe and I actually questioned Joga's choice of Krol as a left wingback in his first game. Similar to Maldini, who was also surprisingly good going forward under Sacchi for a fullback of his kind, Krol still was foremost a quality defender with great ability on the ball.

Fair points, no doubt. Maldini, eh? Yes, that's not a bad comparison, I suppose. I fully agree that he was - so to speak - first and foremost a defender: A natural defender, if you will, who happened to have the technique (and the speed) on top of that. Very much like Maldini in that regard.

But what mainly bothers me - if one can use such a term - is that he was a passer, someone who liked to do a bit of orchestrating from back there: That was a natural part of his game too - and it does seem to clash a bit, style wise, with how Scirea likes to operate.

 

[The Stain]

Fair points, no doubt. Maldini, eh? Yes, that's not a bad comparison, I suppose. I fully agree that he was - so to speak - first and foremost a defender: A natural defender, if you will, who happened to have the technique (and the speed) on top of that. Very much like Maldini in that regard.

But what mainly bothers me - if one can use such a term - is that he was a passer, someone who liked to do a bit of orchestrating from back there: That was a natural part of his game too - and it does seem to clash a bit, style wise, with how Scirea likes to operate.

He can pass it out from the back but he's first and foremost a defender. I don't see him clashing with Scirea at all.

 

[Balu]

But what mainly bothers me - if one can use such a term - is that he was a passer, someone who liked to do a bit of orchestrating from back there: That was a natural part of his game too - and it does seem to clash a bit, style wise, with how Scirea likes to operate.

True, but then, he happily shared the playmaking from deep with Vasovic/Blankenburg/Haan at Ajax. I think the Dutch school of football is usually one of sharing the ball, not dominating it through individuals. I don't see it as a clash between two dominating liberos like you could argue for example with Beckenbauer + Scirea.

 

[Pat_Mustard]

My other impression is that Invictus/Theon have the best and most tactically perfect team ever assembled. According to themselves.

. Aye, I must admit I quite enjoyed this piece of old-school draft hyperbole:

We feel that it's a criminal offense to have so many mismatches in a very condensed area of the pitch...In contrast with their attack, our attack is holistically and tactically perfect

 

[crappycraperson]

I reckon the key thing with El Pibe is that he absolutely loved playing alongside with 2 other complete and/or mobile forwards (Valdano & Burruchaga/ Careca & Giordano/ Carrasco at Barca) etc. In a 3-5-2, your forwards have more freedom than most with a solid base which gives them the perfect platform. Which was one of the prime reasons we went for Puskas, who'd probably wouldn't be at home in a spearheading role up top in a 4-3-3 for example, and in Stoichkov we have the perfect wing-forward who was absolutely lethal at making those 'dagger' like runs from the wing or the channels. His ability to find space and brutally capitalise on those minute gaps left behind by defenders was nothing short of phenomenal - always arriving at the right place at the right time.
.

It is more in the context of this draft. IMO your team is better off with at least one proper number 9 striker who will play the line with 2 central defenders.

 

[Joga Bonito]

Fair points, no doubt. Maldini, eh? Yes, that's not a bad comparison, I suppose. I fully agree that he was - so to speak - first and foremost a defender: A natural defender, if you will, who happened to have the technique (and the speed) on top of that. Very much like Maldini in that regard.

But what mainly bothers me - if one can use such a term - is that he was a passer, someone who liked to do a bit of orchestrating from back there: That was a natural part of his game too - and it does seem to clash a bit, style wise, with how Scirea likes to operate.

That's a fair criticism indeed. Both were really cultured players on the ball and did like having their fair share of the ball, however (once again Balu's beaten me to the punch ), he did thrive in the Dutch school of philosophy (I'm going to lose a vote or two for the usage of that term aren't I?) where the emphasis was more on cohesiveness, interchangeability and gelling together as a unit. Krol despite being a really great passer of the ball, dovetailed beautifully on the ball with the likes of Vasovic, Blankenburg and Hulshoff for example. There wasn't really just one dominant presence on the ball for them at the back. In fact the centreback duo of Hulshoff-Blankenburg were both exceptional ball-playing defenders and at times you had difficulty defining their individual roles - as to who the stopper or the ball-playing defender were. There were overlaps, naturally, but all of them dealt with it wonderfully which made it all the more remarkable. I wouldn't say Krol was that dominant on the ball myself and I can see him linking up well with Scirea. It provides a great base for us to build-up play though and I can't see Invictus/Theon's team posing too much problems to our defense off the ball,and it ensures a steady stream of supply to our imposing midfield duo and Maradona ahead of them - not that those three needed it.

 

[The Stain]

If you played a 4-3-3 with Sammer as libero/DM and relied on counters i'd vote you in a hurry. Don't know how well Platini would work in a duo with Redondo but hopefully someone can give judgement of that.

Thoughts on this? Potential game changer here i reckon. Wouldn't even have to purely rely on counters, rather a mix.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

It provides a great base for us to build-up play though and I can't see Invictus/Theon's team posing too much problems to our defense off the ball,and it ensures a steady stream of supply to our imposing midfield duo and Maradona ahead of them - not that those three needed it.

Indeed, if we buy it - well, it becomes a strength rather than the opposite. Not too many cooks, but a couple of brilliant cooks working together.

The Ajax argument is clearly a pretty decent one - and is a point in favour of him dovetailing rather than clashing with Scirea here.

On a general note, though, I tend to be pretty critical when managers bring up the total football argument: It can easily become an all-purpose get-out-of-jail card: Player X can do anything alongside anyone because...total football! I intend to play like Ajax, hence I can safely presume that all my players will play...total football!

You know what I mean, I'm sure. But - I stress - I'm NOT suggesting your argument above is suspect in any way. On the contrary, I buy that particular argument. The Ajax/total football point is general and separate. Just to be clear on that.

 

[Joga Bonito]

Thoughts on this? Potential game changer here i reckon. Wouldn't even have to purely rely on counters, rather a mix.

I've already provided my thoughts on that issue and don't want to bore you death but will wait to hear out the neutrals opinions on that divisive issue. It's hard to see Sammer playing a free DM/libero role with Redondo and Platini in midfield against Breitner-Rijkaard & Maradona though.

 

[Pat_Mustard]

Thoughts on this? Potential game changer here i reckon. Wouldn't even have to purely rely on counters, rather a mix.

I don't really see it as much different from how they're lining up now?

 

[Joga Bonito]

Indeed, if we buy it - well, it becomes a strength rather than the opposite. Not too many cooks, but a couple of brilliant cooks working together.

The Ajax argument is clearly a pretty decent one - and is a point in favour of him dovetailing rather than clashing with Scirea here.

On a general note, though, I tend to be pretty critical when managers bring up the total football argument: It can easily become an all-purpose get-out-of-jail card: Player X can do anything alongside anyone because...total football! I intend to play like Ajax, hence I can safely presume that all my players will play...total football!

You know what I mean, I'm sure. But - I stress - I'm NOT suggesting your argument above is suspect in any way. On the contrary, I buy that particular argument. The Ajax/total football point is general and separate. Just to be clear on that.

Yeah, that's fair enough.

 

[The Stain]

I've already provided my thoughts on that issue and don't want to bore you death but will wait to hear out the neutrals opinions on that divisive issue. It's hard to see Sammer playing a free DM/libero role with Redondo and Platini in midfield against Breitner-Rijkaard & Maradona though.

Yes, a neutral of course. I dunno.. Would have been preferable, for me, if either van Basten or Platini was dropped but they don't have a cm on the bench. Ronaldo's influence on the game would have been greater.

 

[The Stain]

I don't really see it as much different from how they're lining up now?

The roles are different. Especially when defending. Platini would be more withdrawn (question is, would he work in that role?) and Sammer would have a better position to control the space in front of his defenders. Less space for Maradona.

 

[Enigma_87]

With Scirea and Rijkaard picks I think Gio/Joga had their picks exactly with this game in mind.

They did great to neutralize as much as they can I/T incredible attack.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

The roles are different. Especially when defending. Platini would be more withdrawn (question is, would he work in that role?) and Sammer would have a better position to control the space in front of his defenders. Less space for Maradona.

Don't see the huge difference myself. Either you buy their sales pitch or you don't: In other words, either Sammer is capable of significantly fecking things up for Maradona while at the same time working fully as a cog in that passing machinery of theirs (as described in the write-up) - or he isn't. Or isn't to the extent they'll have us believe.

Whether Sammer plays as a nominal libero or in his present DM role makes no difference: He's supposedly doing pretty much what you'd expect him to do as a libero anyway.

 

[Balu]

Whether Sammer plays as a nominal libero or in his present DM role makes no difference: He's supposedly doing pretty much what you'd expect him to do as a libero anyway.

I thought I made Sammer sound like a superhero when I had him. Then I read Invictus/Theon's write-ups in this draft and realised, that I could have asked so much more from him .

 

[The Stain]

Don't see the huge difference myself. Either you buy their sales pitch or you don't: In other words, either Sammer is capable of significantly fecking things up for Maradona while at the same time working fully as a cog in that passing machinery of theirs (as described in the write-up) - or he isn't. Or isn't to the extent they'll have us believe.

Whether Sammer plays as a nominal libero or in his present DM role makes no difference: He's supposedly doing pretty much what you'd expect him to do as a libero anyway.

Well, i'm not buying it as it is now. In a 4-3-3, Platini would help defend down the right, Redondo defend down the left and Sammer play his preferred position. I think i've explained myself enough now and i'm sure you guys understand the differences between 4-2-3-1 and 4-3-3 so i'll leave it there.

 

[Fergus' son]

. Aye, I must admit I quite enjoyed this piece of old-school draft hyperbole:

I actually went for gio as I think his team is very well suited against the opposition, more so than the other way around.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

Well, i'm not buying it as it is now. In a 4-3-3, Platini would help defend down the right, Redondo defend down the left and Sammer play his preferred position. I think i've explained myself enough now and i'm sure you guys understand the differences between 4-2-3-1 and 4-3-3 so i'll leave it there.

I may be uncommonly thick, but unless you want 'em to do something significant about the Platini/Redondo roles specifically and in addition to the Sammer situation, then I really don't get what the big deal is.

If Sammer does - now - what he would presumably do as a libero, then it can't possibly be significant.

If you want Platini to play deeper and defend down the right, then that is surely the focus: Simply calling Sammer a libero (rather than some sort of custom DM who plays like a Sammer style libero anyway) isn't going to automatically change the premise of...anything (not what Platini and Redondo have to do on the detail plane). So, basically, Platini and/or Redondo could have been instructed to do something different here - but this doesn't really have anything to do with Sammer's role, because according to the description provided, what Sammer will do is pretty much what you'd expect from him in a libero role anyway: the key part being that he'll be able to successfully limit Maradona's impact while still contributing heavily to the build-up. The latter is what you have to buy - or not. Whether they call Sammer a "libero" or not shouldn't make that much of a difference, IMO.

 

[Physiocrat]

Spoiler: Original Write-Up for Invictus and Theon

Formation

A fluid and natural 4-2-3-1 featuring an impregnable defense, Europe's greatest midfielder ever in Michel Platini, and a devastating attack which is balanced and multifaceted - with the perfect combination of width, creativity and unrivaled goal threat - with all three forwards scoring a goal a game in their best four seasons. Altogether, Platini and the attacking trio scored an astonishing 1700 goals (what's even more remarkable is that Van Basten's career was essentially over at age 28, and Ronaldo and Messi are still active).

The team will play a medium to high defensive line, looking to control the game in midfield and limit the space for Joga/ Gio's narrow attack. The back four all possessed excellent pace in recovery, whilst Neuer is the modern day gold-standard when it comes to rushing out and sweeping up behind a defense. In wider areas - Ronaldo and Messi will stretch the opposition defense inside-out, and limit the ability of their wingbacks to get forward, whilst centrally the 6'2" Van Basten provides a physical presence, world class hold up play and a constant threat running in behind the defense.

The catalyst of the attack is Michel Platini, one of the best passers in the history of the game. The ball playing ability of Platini leaves Joga/ Gio's defensive organisation in a quandary, as any attempt to use dedicated markers will create space elsewhere - which will be exploited by Messi/Ronaldo/Van Basten in devastating fashion.

Defense

The center of defense comprises of two of the greatest centerbacks in football history - with the right blend of physicality, defensive intelligence and aerial ability. Fabio Cannavaro remains only the third defender to ever win a Ballon d'or; whilst Elías Figueroa stands out as the best defender to ever come from South America, and is arguably the best pure defender in the history of the game.

​

On the flanks both fullbacks are well rounded, offer immense workrate, and have experience tucking in defensively - which is well suited against a narrow attack. Hans-Peter Briegel brings an exquisite blend of physicality and effervescence in both attack - back on the left flank and overwhelming Gerets, who'll have his hands full with Ronaldo already. On the right - the peerless Carlos Alberto forms the base of the most dangerous flank in the draft - venturing forward in support of Messi and utilizing his fantastic passing/crossing ability in possession. Defensively, Carlos Alberto forms the perfect shield against an Facchetti - already heavily burdened dealing with Lionel Messi - and Joga/ Gio's sole source of width on the left.

Midfield

In midfield we will strive to control the flow of the game through the Platini-Redondo-Sammer axis - all fantastic passers and capable of dictating the game against any midfield. The most important role on the pitch is given to our captain, Matthias Sammer, who will patrol the area in front of the defense, limiting the space for Diego Maradona and pressing him in possession.

Much will be made about Sammer's role from the opposition in an effort to distract the voters, but the fact remains that the characteristics of Sammer's role remain the same despite it being a four man defense - In this position Sammer can still break forward from deep, dictate play from defense, press opposition attackers, track runners and drop into the defensive line when he needs to.

Within the framework of our team, Sammer has complete freedom to help out defensively and offensively as he feels fit. Fluidly transitioning between roles, he will be exactly where he needs to be - the active heartbeat of our XI and one of the only players in the draft capable of going up against Maradona.

His partner Fernando Redondo is arguably the greatest central midfielder of the last 25 years. The heart beat of Real Madrid in the late 90's - he combined fantastic technical ability with defensive solidity in a way that virtually no midfielder has matched since.



Roaming menacingly throughout the midfield is the 3 time Ballon D'Or winning Michel Platini - the greatest orchestrator, passer, schemer that Europe has ever produced. In this role Platini will probe, pass and drift deep when he wants to, dragging his markers with him (if Rijkaard is tasked with marking him specifically) and disorganizing the defensive shape of the opposition.

​

Technically flawless and amongst the most accomplished ball players in the history of the game, Platini also offers a goal threat from midfield which is virtually unmatched in European football - scoring over 25 goals in 10 separate seasons from midfield, at his peak scoring 82 goals in 139 games for Juventus in the extremely defensive 1980's Serie A. And, he has experience against the Zona Mista having played at Juventus through his peak - he is custom built to dictate this match.

Attack

The attack is well rounded, complementary and utterly impossible to defend against - In their best four seasons all three average one goal every game - with Messi scoring 244 goals in 222 games, Ronaldo scoring 227 goals in 211 games and Van Basten scoring 129 goals in 130 games.

Tactically, all four are a perfect fit - with the magnificent Van Basten stretching the field vertically, whilst Ronaldo and Messi stretch Joga/ Gio's back line horizontally, and drifting inwards to pose a massive threat. All three have a proven record ceding possession to the side's playmaker - in this case is Michel Platini - and have a proven ability to play alongside other top tier attackers.

The most important role tactically will be allocated to the physical and well rounded 3 time Ballon D'Or winner Marco Van Basten - the greatest target striker in football history, and the spearhead of our attack to pierce the heart of the opposition defense. His role will be to occupy Joga/ Gio's central defense with his unrivaled blend of aerial prowess, hold up and linkup play, and supreme technical ability - creating room for Platini/Messi/Ronaldo and offering a constant threat in behind the defense.

​

 

[Theon]

what version of Cristiano is playing?

The poaching, Madrid version as we think that offers the most compatibility with Platini - He's shown at Madrid that he doesn't need to dominate the ball in order to be affect the game, whereas at United he was less more well rounded and inclined to come deeper in order to pick up possession.

 

[Isotope]

With those attackers Invictus' have, I think Joga's would be on the back foot most of the time. And Scirea would be busy guarding the defense, thus nullifying his ability helping the midfield.

 

[Theon]

what Sammer will do is pretty much what you'd expect from him in a libero role anyway: the key part being that he'll be able to successfully limit Maradona's impact while still contributing heavily to the build-up. The latter is what you have to buy - or not. Whether they call Sammer a "libero" or not shouldn't make that much of a difference, IMO.

I agree on your description of the role but I don't think there's too much to buy there - particularly as we're not trying to sell the idea that he'll completely limit Maradona. I think he'll definitely disrupt him but surely that's not too hard to accept - Sammer certainly has the physicality and defensive ability to cause Maradona problems and it's only really the likes of Rijkaard who can match that defensive impact.

In terms of the rest of it, Sammer would be involved in the build up but the focus of his game would be defensive given the opposition in this game. There's enough quality ball playing ability in that back line for it not to really matter in our opinion - Figueroa, Carlos Alberto and especially Redondo/Platini would all contribute to the build up.

 

[Theon]

As much as i love Redondo; i don't see him and Sammer (in a weird role) being able to stop the threat of Maradona, Joga's midfield+Scirea.

If you played a 4-3-3 with Sammer as libero/DM and relied on counters i'd vote you in a hurry.

I don't think we've explained it very well because Sammer here is meant to be playing a libero/DM role - operating ahead of the defence in the area that Maradona would be playing in.

It's not too dissimilar how he would operate in a three man back line - particularly as he's only playing against one striker, he would always be looking to push into the midfield battle.

Someone linked an article previously but all I can find is this from Balu, which anyway discussed the role of the libero in the modern game. I don't think he's doing anything differently here but the main thing we were trying to get across was that he was free to influence the game as he saw fit - which is pretty much the basic premise and usefulness of a libero/free player.

But yeah, as Chester says in this game he's playing the same game that we would ask him in a three man defence, which is mostly to try and limit the influence of Maradona and restrict that area in front of the defence.

We've removed the arrows on the formation picture as he's clearly playing a defensive game here given the quality of Joga's attack. That's what he would do naturally, as its the position that he's most needed. The arrows were supposed to just show his freedom to move across the pitch as he feel's fit i.e. as a libero would do, but probably just added to the confusion.

The difference between my 532 and a modern 433 is simply in the movement. A libero moving forward instead of a DM dropping deep. There were several articles about the return of the sweeper, because modern fullbacks are all about attacking and you need that DM to drop in defense again.

Whether Sammer plays as a nominal libero or in his present DM role makes no difference: He's supposedly doing pretty much what you'd expect him to do as a libero anyway.