Billy No Mates Draft: R1 - The Stain vs Aldo

What will the result be?

  • The Stain wins by 2 goals

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Aldo wins by 3 goals

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    21
  • Poll closed .

Physiocrat

Has No Mates
Joined
Jun 29, 2010
Messages
9,568
Team The Stain

Game-plan:

We will mainly sit back and counter-attack letting Aldo's team have most of the ball. It won't just be counter-attacking, though. We will press on the right side and only with Dzajic and Robson on the left. Alaba will always stay back. Once the ball is in our half we will fall back and defend as a compact unit, patiently waiting for a counter-attacking opportunity. Varela's duty is to sit in front of the central defenders, he won't join in attack.

When it isn't possible to c-attack we have plenty of players comfortable on the ball. I've built the team so we can create plenty of chances for Ronaldo. Obviously he could create chances on his own but here he has players around him that will do everything to give him the best chances of scoring. Scholes can play through-balls, long-balls over opposition defence and he had a great shot on him. Dzajic had amazing crossing and was a great goal-scorer himself. Nedved, the endless worker was a playmaker with a fierce long-shot. Add Robson's runs from midfield and Dani Alves' over-lapping and we've got all the tools to create plenty of chances.

More about some of my more unknown players:

Ricardo Zamora:

http://the100.ru/en/football/ricardo-zamora-i-martinez.html

Albert Shesternyov:

https://www.redcafe.net/threads/40s-...raft-semi-finals.409846/page-17#post-18201727

Obdulio Varela:

https://www.redcafe.net/threads/chain-draft-main-thread.408307/page-55#post-18083226

Dragan Džajić:

Dzajic, a left winger blessed with demonic dribbling skills, deliver defense splitting passes, brilliant ball control, speed, a great cross, a superb free kick, and a sharp eye for the goal. The man could score from just about any angle and many of his successful attempts came direct from corner kicks. The player oozed class and was considered a dead ball specialist too. Gifted with vision and that rare gift, a killer left foot, he was delivering 'Platini-like' free kicks when the French legend was still in shorts.

He played 590 games for Red Star Belgrade, scoring 365 goals. Exceptional figures – but with the Yugoslav league being an obscure affair for the rest of Europe, it was only during international tournaments that people had the chance to witness Dzajic in action.

Euro 1968 launched his status as world class winger. In the semi-final against England, Dzajic scored the winning goal by lobbing the ball over Gordon Banks. Yugoslavia lost the final to Italy, but Dzajic was elected as the player of the tournament. He also ranked third in the Ballon d’Or rankings that year – behind Manchester Unitied’s George Best and Bobby Charlton. Franz Beckenbauer later stated that Dzajic should have won the trophy. Der Kaiser wasn’t the only admirer of Dzajic:

“Dzajic is the Balkan miracle – a real wizard. I’m just sorry he’s not Brazilian because I’ve never seen such a natural footballer.” – Pelé.

In 1971, Dzajic guided Red Star to the semi-final of the European Cup. There the Serbs easily dispatched their Greek opponents Panathinaikos in the first leg: 4-1. Red Star’s place in the final looked certain.

What happened during the return match is best described by Despina Gaspari, the wife of Greece’s former dictator Georgios Papadopoulos. “I told the president of Panathinaikos that I was very nervous. My husband, standing next to me, said that wasn’t necessary. ‘You don’t think we would leave a matter of national interest to chance, do you? Red Star will surrender and receive their reward.'”

The game ended 3-0 for the Greeks. Exactly enough to make it through to the final. Red Star blamed their defeat on food poisoning.

As such, as a result of a bribe, Dzajic never got to play in a European Cup final. Who knows how different football history would have been had Dzajic’s Red Star, rather than Panathinaikos, been Ajax’s opponent in that 1971 final?

Sub: Hidegkuti

Shamelessly taken from @Tuppet @Raees & @antohan . Cheers guys!

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Team Aldo

Brief Tactical Description

The team is playing a 4-3-3 formation. The defensive line is deeper than average, the team will look to maintain shape at the back, and quick transitions from back to front through the middle till the final third where we release our wide players to supply the centre forward with the midfielders breaking through the middle.

The legendary Uruguayan keeper Mazurkiewicz takes guard of the ball, a man made for big occasions with a penchant for match winning saves. The central defensive duo consists of the German legend Willi Schulz, and the Juventus legend John Charles. Schulz would be assuming the role of a ball playing defender, a standout sweeper for his nation circa World Cup 1966 where he was rated as one of the best defenders in the team, his completeness in physicality, inch perfect tackling, unforgiving marking and class on the ball will be vital to our backline, alongside he has the mythical John Charles, rated as the greatest foreign player in the history of the club, Charles was exemplary as a centre forward and as a centre half, with an imposing frame he'll be instructed to mind the harder side of the game.

Flanking them are two of Serie A's greatest sons - Antonio Cabrini and Javier Zanetti. Two of the first names that come to mind when thinking of tireless, dynamic and consistent fullbacks who made telling difference going forward while being equally responsible at the back. Two great engines on either side - and let's not repeat the fact that both will never bomb forward together - who will be responsible of providing width when necessary, joining the midfield in the buildup when necessary (Pupi) and most importantly - defending with the rest of the unit.

Anchoring the midfield is the french midfield maestro Jean Tigana, with the Spanish metronome Xavi and the German playmaker Bernd Schuster. Tigana is the perfect foil for the two playmakers - possessing a beautiful swing of the foot himself - he would be acting as a holding midfielder bringing forward his endless reserves of stamina and tenacity to break the play up and build from the back. Xavi will be dictating the tempo of the game, connecting everyone around him and being adventurous with the ball with less caution that he's generally used to. There's no one better in getting the ball forward in a measured almost risk free fashion, involving those around him in the buildup, speaking of which, he'll be combining with the more attack minded midfielder Schuster who will be as involved in the buildup as he will be in the final third linking up with the front three and supporting the attack with late runs into the box or powerful shots from outside.

In attack, is the mercurial talent of Rivelino, the greatest dribbler ever in Garrincha and the lethal number nine Romario. Rivelino will be playing a role akin to what he had in 1970 for Brazil, a multifaceted attacking midfielder who will be as much a part of midfield as he'll be in final third out wide, he'll be allowed to express himself completely whether going on the outside or launching a strike after cutting in. Garrincha on the other flank will do what he does, no instructions necessary, taking on his man time and again and more often than not getting past. In Romario, we have someone with pin point accuracy and composure in front of goal and a tremendous amount of skill to go with it. With the service behind him he'll be unstoppable, no question.

Opposition Instructions
- My wingers against his fullbacks is the greatest mismatch on the pitch. And that is no slight on Alaba or Dani Alves whatsoever. Two excellent fullbacks but they are against two of the greatest wide attacking threats you can imagine, and I doubt they can withstand the Samba for 90 minutes.

- Five players in my team who will be massively influential in this game from a tactical point of view - Zanetti, Cabrini, Xavi, Schuster and Rivelino. Reason being, these are five immensely multitalented and versatile players, tactically and they can control the game depending on the situation. If leading, Rivelino and Schuster will be asked to drop in midfield, keep the ball and force an error with the array of unpredictable passes they will come up with, all while not letting go of the control of the game. While trailing, they will be instructed to be more adventurous with their dribbling, passing and shooting.

- While against two quality wide players, Zanetti and Cabrini are two of the most reliable fullbacks who were mainstays of great Serie A defenses for years, rarely beaten for pace or outrun on their flank - both are accustomed to man entire flanks by themselves on the biggest of stages and here they'll be continuing that.

- We won't be camping in our box but we won't be leaving much space between the backline and the keeper for Ronaldo to exploit. He's a great striker and on paper no defender can claim to 'shut him down' 1v1, which is why we'll starve the service to him as much as possible by keeping the ball in midfield and sharp closing down by Schulz and Charles as soon as he gets it, while the fullbacks use their pace to cover the CBs instantly.

- As discussed earlier, the midfield is well capable of keeping the ball and will do it to slow down the tempo when needed, though the general plan doesn't resemble anything close to tiki taka, rather a quick yet fluent transition using short passing and frequent runs by both the central midfielders and the fullbacks. All the players involved rank high in strength and stamina and can carry this out all day. While we are also well capable of finding Garrincha with a long punt from deep or Rivelino in case Dani Alves has left some usable space behind him, we'll bring the ball forward without letting Robson or Varela cut out an early rash pass, and when the time is right we'll be finding the feet of Garrincha or Romario with them facing their marker. Both these attackers are encouraged to dribble and attack the ball swiftly, without worrying about losing the ball.


Should be a tight match up, good luck @The Stain . And credit to @Joga Bonito for the Schuster write up.
 
@Rado_N

Please can you put a poll with the following options on?

The Stain wins by 1 goal
The Stain wins by 2 goals
The Stain wins by 3 goals
Aldo wins by 1 goal
Aldo wins by 2 goals
Aldo wins by 3 goals
 
I don't think TS' defensive shield is solid enough.

And he relies on it being an actual shield, as per his stated tactics.

Centrally, no questions asked. But his FBs will be specifically targeted by immense tricksters (an obvious part of Aldo's game here). And the idea is to soak up whatever comes, and then hit back on the counter. I don't think they'll be able to do that soaking part well enough. Alves in particular is not a soakin' sort.
 
I don't think TS' defensive shield is solid enough.

And he relies on it being an actual shield, as per his stated tactics.

Centrally, no questions asked. But his FBs will be specifically targeted by immense tricksters (an obvious part of Aldo's game here). And the idea is to soak up whatever comes, and then hit back on the counter. I don't think they'll be able to do that soaking part well enough. Alves in particular is not a soakin' sort.

I think thats a little unfair on alves, he was a fantastic defender whose defensive qualities often got overlooked due to how good he was going forward. Can see him keeping rivelino quiet here like he often did with ronaldo.
 
I think thats a little unfair on alves, he was a fantastic defender whose defensive qualities often got overlooked due to how good he was going forward. Can see him keeping rivelino quiet here like he often did with ronaldo.
Well for one they're not remotely similar in their wing play.
 
Have to say I love Aldo's team - said so in the main thread too. Only question was whether he could dig up central defenders of the required calibre.

Did he? Well, good enough for this match.

Beyond, we'll see. I'm not sold on Charles, never was. For me he is immense as a player who could play at both extremes at a high level - but that doesn't cut it at the later stages of an all-time draft: You can sell him as a world beating forward - not as a world beating CB. The latter part is a nice bonus in a very particular scenario - one which is highly unlikely to be relevant in a draft match.
 
I'll comment some more later, but my first thoughts are that Aldo's team isn't suited to the approach he has set up. For a team that is supposed to maintain their shape with a deeper defensive line, he cannot afford to go with only one defensively capable midfielder in the team. His team should be all about the high-pressing possession football approach with a high line with the players at his disposal, allowing Xavi and young Schuster to focus more on attacking than defending. Charles is fast enough to deal with Ô Fenômeno's pace, and Schulz and Charles are both good on the ball as well whilst being solid defenders.

The Stain's team is better-suited to their tactical approach with players being a better fit for each other. Scholes has the perfect platform to play his game with two very good wide threats, a direct forward, and two defensively capable midfielders. His defenders don't getuch of a mention, but they are very strong and capable of slowing down Aldo's attack (yes, I rate Alaba highly).
 
I think thats a little unfair on alves, he was a fantastic defender whose defensive qualities often got overlooked due to how good he was going forward. Can see him keeping rivelino quiet here like he often did with ronaldo.

I don't think he was ever anything close to a fantastic defender, to be honest.

He was more than capable of defending, don't get me wrong. But this is an all-time draft.

And the main point is that the general idea here is to sit back and actually defend - that role doesn't suit Alves more than it suits any run-of-the-mill player you can think of.
 
I think thats a little unfair on alves, he was a fantastic defender whose defensive qualities often got overlooked due to how good he was going forward. Can see him keeping rivelino quiet here like he often did with ronaldo.
Even though Dani Alves' defending gets really underrated, Rivelino can really decimate The Stain's shape via Alves. Alves' strength has been on tightly marking a winger out wide, beating him for pace and quickness and marking him tightly. With Rivelino, however, given how he likes to drift into the midfield, in a setup like The Stain's, this could be a real problem for his right side even with Nedved tracking back. I can see Cabrini doing quite well in this match because of this.
 
Well for one they're not remotely similar in their wing play.

I know, but it was the biggest name I could think of at 12 in the morning :p

I don't think he was ever anything close to a fantastic defender, to be honest.

He was more than capable of defending, don't get me wrong. But this is an all-time draft.

And the main point is that the general idea here is to sit back and actually defend - that role doesn't suit Alves more than it suits any run-of-the-mill player you can think of.

Yeah, thats why I named ronaldo who wont be out of place in an all-time draft. His pace nullifies most attackers and he is agile enough to deal with trickery. The question is basically if its in his nature to play a defensive game, I believe he can as he has done it in a past.
 
Even though Dani Alves' defending gets really underrated, Rivelino can really decimate The Stain's shape via Alves. Alves' strength has been on tightly marking a winger out wide, beating him for pace and quickness and marking him tightly. With Rivelino, however, given how he likes to drift into the midfield, in a setup like The Stain's, this could be a real problem for his right side even with Nedved tracking back. I can see Cabrini doing quite well in this match because of this.

Yeah this is a much more valid point, alves main strength is that he has enough pace to match most wingers, will be interesting to see how he would play against a roaming rivelino but again going back to the cr7 example, its not like he stays outwide either.
 
The question is basically if its in his nature to play a defensive game, I believe he can as he has done it in a past.

Yes, that is indeed the question. I'm not sure it is. He has the pace to keep up with most anyone, but your claim that he "has done it" needs elaborating: Not that I'm one to insist on "proven", but it strikes me as a claim which needs some evidence: Most people would say he hardly ever had to stick to a strict regime in terms of playing a purely conservative game.

Nor is he supposed to, for that matter - unlike Alaba, he's still supposed to bomb forward to a degree. Looked at from a certain perspective, Rivelino's man is a generally offensive fullback who is not strictly limited to keeping tabs on him - in spite of the general approach, one could add, which is to sit back and hit Aldo on the counter.
 
Yeah, you'd have to. Extremely highly, nothing less.
Come on now, is every present-day player in their mid/young 20's going to be underrated just because their career isn't yet over? He's proven himself to be a great defender, particularly under Guardiola. He's played as a left back, defensive midfielder, and left central defender. How does that not tell you that he has a good amount of footballing intelligence, skill on the ball, and defensive + tactical awareness to transcend generations? Just because defenders nowadays are generally poor doesn't mean that defenders like Alaba belong to the same group.
 
Don't like Tigana in Aldo's MF.
Yup, he's never been one to take the most defensive responsibility whenever he played. He flourished for France when Fernandez replaced Genghini, allowing him to play his all-action game and be more influential on the ball.
 
I'll be on a bit later but..

Naturally, my fullbacks are questioned but Alaba has arguably been the best left-back in the world for the past 2-3 years. Keeping Messi quiet in 2 semis when Bayern won the CL and he has numerous Bundesliga titles.

Here's an article on Dani Alves which is very interesting (couple years old):

http://www.zonalmarking.net/2011/01/21/dani-alves/

He is certaintly defensively solid. He's been known for last ditch tackles but that's what you get when you play in a attacking system and when you have his pace.

The big question in this match up is:

Who is going to stop Ronaldo from scoring a few?
 
Don't like Tigana in Aldo's MF.
As a player or in this set up?

I think The Stain takes the midfield here - it's more balanced and Varela/Robbo/Scholes is excellent middle 3. Ronaldo also edges Romario for me and I was never sold on Charles as a CB.

With that being said Aldo's midfield is not too shabby either. Kohler and Schultz are the best CB on the pitch and Aldo takes the edge on the wings(both fullbacks and wingers). Leaning towards Aldo with 1.
 
As a player or in this set up?

I think The Stain takes the midfield here - it's more balanced and Varela/Robbo/Scholes is excellent middle 3. Ronaldo also edges Romario for me and I was never sold on Charles as a CB.

With that being said Aldo's midfield is not too shabby either. Kohler and Schultz are the best CB on the pitch and Aldo takes the edge on the wings(both fullbacks and wingers). Leaning towards Aldo with 1.

In the set up.
 
Come on now, is every present-day player in their mid/young 20's going to be underrated just because their career isn't yet over?

Well, yeah - they sort of are if they're up against Garrincha. I don't think that is horribly unfair, actually.
 
Don't like Tigana in Aldo's MF.
Out at the moment so can't reply fully but I went for him precisely for this role ahead of regular ball winners. My earlier choices for this role were the likes of Redondo and that is the style of play I wanted from my holding midfielder. I don't want a destroyer nor do I need one against the stains team.
 
aye, he might be a bit overwhelmed with all the defensive work.

Yeah, but what exactly is all this defensive work? Firstly, Tigana is defensively very sound, by no means a misfit for a designated DM role. Secondly, the opponent is supposed to sit back and do the business on the counter. How does this make Tigana "overwhelmed"?

The actual counter attackers in that team would be the front trio and Robbo, presumably. Unless TS is fielding that mythical Scholes most rational people agree doesn't actually exist, i.e. the superman version where all his traits as a player over the years are merged into one.
 
Against who? And both Xavi and Schuster and defensively excellent. The whole midfield will defend.
I saw Xavi with a more free/adventurous role with Schuster being the more attacking one.

Yeah, but what exactly is all this defensive work? Firstly, Tigana is defensively very sound, by no means a misfit for a designated DM role. Secondly, the opponent is supposed to sit back and do the business on the counter. How does this make Tigana "overwhelmed"?

The actual counter attackers in that team would be the front trio and Robbo, presumably. Unless TS is fielding that mythical Scholes most rational people agree doesn't actually exist, i.e. the superman version where all his traits as a player over the years are merged into one.

As for Tigana - no question about his defensive work rate. If we didn't block him with Amoros he's certainly one I'd welcome in our team. I saw that he'll have the designated DM role with Xavi/Schuster more free/attacking roles. With Cabrini and also Zanetti more adventurous roles he'll have a lot of work to do. :)
 
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So both of us are playing a lowish defensive line. I really think his team will be pushing forward more than mine. His midfield will see more of the ball here, leaving more opportunities for my team to counter than his.

We will press them in their half. Not Alaba or Varela though so we will always have 4 players back no matter what. We will always have the numerical advantage on his breaks.

I know Rivelino played a similar position in the WC70 but he will cut inside more often than not. It will be up to Cabrini to provide width and i can see him doing that well. However, it will leave space on the counter. Dani Alves/Nedved has no doubt taken the defensive responsibiliity here so when we win the ball back i envision Ronaldo drifting wide to pick up a quick pass and then going on a swift dribble-run. Or if Scholes gets it he'll play a fast through-ball.

The main threat for us is Garrincha but we're aiming to keep the midfield close to the defense, minimizing space for the oppositions technical players. Not to forget my own wingers, both arguably top 10 wingers ever.

So i don't really see how Aldo has that much better wings than i.

I feel have a stronger central core in Zamora, Kohler, Shesternyov, Varela (not many, if any, better central destroyer out there) Ronaldo and i think my midfield is more balanced). I really can't see anyone stopping Ronaldo in this match.

- We won't be camping in our box but we won't be leaving much space between the backline and the keeper for Ronaldo to exploit. He's a great striker and on paper no defender can claim to 'shut him down' 1v1, which is why we'll starve the service to him as much as possible by keeping the ball in midfield and sharp closing down by Schulz and Charles as soon as he gets it, while the fullbacks use their pace to cover the CBs instantly.

That bit is somewhat confusing. The central defenders will press Ronaldo and then the fullbacks will cover?

Leaving space for my wingers to cut inside either to take a shot or pass it to Ronaldo ,(arriving late but has the pace against 2 slowish central defenders to get a toe on it) or Robson/other winger (Scholes outside the box).

And yes, someone mentioned that we're a counter-attacking side. We are, but you can't do that all the time and my team are certainly good keeping the ball and taking on their markers.

Very close game and i can't see more than 1 goal separating these sides.
 
Oh that was in the attacking phase. Plus it's pretty much given that players like xavi and Schuster who are naturally tenacious and carry loads of work ethic won't be standing while they don't have the ball. It's what they have done throughout their careers. Same goes for Rivelino. He'll be joining the midfield battle when that is the zone of action.

My team is absolutely packed with hard work and stamina. I mentioned that in the Op. Both fullbacks as well. Good luck playing between them with the chasing down that will happen. @Enigma_87
 
Oh that was in the attacking phase. Plus it's pretty much given that players like xavi and Schuster who are naturally tenacious and carry loads of work ethic won't be standing while they don't have the ball. It's what they have done throughout their careers. Same goes for Rivelino. He'll be joining the midfield battle when that is the zone of action.

My team is absolutely packed with hard work and stamina. I mentioned that in the Op. Both fullbacks as well. Good luck playing between them with the chasing down that will happen. @Enigma_87


That makes sense now with the deeper defensive line.
 
Yeah, but what exactly is all this defensive work? Firstly, Tigana is defensively very sound, by no means a misfit for a designated DM role. Secondly, the opponent is supposed to sit back and do the business on the counter. How does this make Tigana "overwhelmed"?
Xavi and Schuster (the young version) did more of their off-the-ball work higher up the pitch, pressing the opposition's deeper players. Xavi was never one to do that much overall defensive work deeper in midfield from a young age, and the young Schuster did much of his pressing and hassling higher up the pitch. Having both of them play in a system where they are expected to be more disciplined and controlled off the ball will not work well for both of them (see Xavi under Tata Martino). Tigana is in no way a misfit for the defensive midfield role, but in this case, Tigana will have lots to do unless he's in a high-pressing, high-line team where he can properly sweep up counters with the opposing team pushed far back.

If Tigana had one more defensively capable midfield player with him (not necessarily the main strength but is decent in it) in Aldo's current setup, then it'd be perfect. However, this current midfield seems a bit too open for me, with The Stain's midfield having more balance in it.
 
For all the talk I really can't see how we're supposed to separate these two sides. They're almost identical!

I very slightly prefer Ronaldo over Romario, but then I very slightly prefer Garrincha over Nedved. Think Schuster and Xavi have a small edge over Robson and Scholes, but then Varela is better than Tigana in that role. Neither defence is perfect but both are strong and of similar strength.

I see goals for both sides but I couldn't for the life of me tell you which one scores more. One minute I think Varela could be the key individual in the match but the next I look at Dzajic against an advancing Alves on the left. Impossible call.
 
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Still not back home but just quickly - for the defensive midfield role I was never looking for an out and out ball winner there. I know that works too and with Xavi and Schuster all you need is a no nonsense ball winning midfielder. That's fine, but the reason I picked Tigana and targetted the likes of Redondo and Sammer for that role was because I was looking for a defensive midfielder who was also capable of joining the passing game and provide more options to pass forward.

Tigana was never a plain old box to box midfielder. He played next to Fernandez but that was a totally different system with different requirements for Tigana. Here, he's asked to sit in front of the defense, use his excellent reading of the game and intercepting skills to take the ball - and he was an exceptional physical force with tireless engine, and he's perfectly fine to do that defensive job here. I would understand the concern if he was being asked to man mark Maradona or something, but this is a midfield battle in which he will never be alone in winning the ball back as the whole midfield unit will work as a unit. Moreover, this type of holding midfielder is someone Xavi would be far more comfortable playing alongside.
 
His midfield will see more of the ball here
Indeed, and having Garrincha and Rivelino take on defenders time and again with the ball at their feet will perfectly work in my favour. They'll be irresistible against those fullbacks and create ample opportunities for Romario to score.
It's a mighty big gamble to let those players see more of the ball than they should be. Both Alaba and Alves peaked in systems where their team kept most of the ball and not the other way round, whereas players like Garrincha and Rivelino bring out their absolute best when they are allowed to see most of the ball and try all the tools in the drawer and find an opening. The Brazilians are going to absolutely thrive within your tactic, they're not the cautious Spanish of 2010, they don't care about losing the ball or a shot going wide, if it means constantly bombarding the opposition with an wide array of skills and tricks, deadly low crosses and through balls to none other than Romario, who again will be in his element given the service provided.
 
Yes, you'll have the ball more but they'll be facing a compact unit. What about when you lose it? Too many players going forward. Don't see that team playing a low defensive line at all. Tigana will want to come forward as well, leaving the central defenders exposed. Against Ronaldo. They'll need a lot of headstart on him. More of ball-winner in DM is exactly what you need with those CM's.

I just don't think you have enough defensive support overall. How much will the wingers defend? Both fullbacks will have a mighty task here. Don't see Rivelino helping much. When you have Dani Alves and Nedved attacking there will be plenty of opportunities created down the right.


Plenty of ball-winners to give the ball to Scholes. Then these guys will finish the job.