Billy No Mates Draft: QF - Physiocrat vs Enigma_87/MJJ

[Physiocrat]

Physiocrat

Tactics Overview

Change at 0823

Ok were losing, throwing caution to the wind. Silva and Luis Suarez off to be replaced by Johnstone and Vieri. Going old school WM, all-out attack. The back three are perfect for this and Neeskens and Bastian box-to-box. Zico and Rivaldo as goalscoring inside right and left, with two awesome wingers and Vieri as target man.

Spoiler: Original Tactics

433 false 9

Defensive Line: Normal

Passing: Normal/ Direct

Pressing: Own-half

We will look to control possession (not though like Guardiola/LVG) but play a more direct risky style to exploit the full potential of Zico, Suarez and Best. With all the creativity and with Zico and Rivaldo with better than 1 in 2 records at their peak there's no way I won't score - an excellent attack 9 times out of 10 beats a great defence.


Defence

Chilavert is a three-time IFFHS World's Best Goalkeeperaward winner who had brilliant reflexes and marshalled his defence well. In addition he had brilliant distribution which will allow quick transitions to Best on the counter. Further he had an incredible goal record scoring 67 career goals.

All of the on the back four are intelligent defenders. The addition on Elias Figueroa really bolsters the defence with his physicality, ability in the air and elegance on the ball- he's the greatest CB ever from South America and will keep a close eye on Henry.

T.Silva is the best centre back of his generation combing elegant ball playing skills with astute positioning and rugged tackling yet he averages only one yellow card every 16 games/

Vogts is an all-time great defensive right-back and will be a wall for Giggs. During transitions all of them will be able to quickly play the ball forward to Bastian, Marzolini and Neeskens.

Marzolini is regarded as Argentina's greatest left back of all-time and declared the best left-back in the 1966 World Cup. Combining great stamina, defensive awareness, dribbling and crossing skills he will fit perfectly in this attacking LB position and will relish linking up with Rivaldo.


Midfield

Bastian will be shielding the back three using his energy and intelligence keeping close attention on Cruyff but also acting as a DLP moving the ball quickly and always being an option for the back four. The best way to stop Cruyff is to be organised in defence and starve him of the ball which we're perfecty sutied to.


Neeskens is a GOAT midfielder who will box-to-box role to which he is ideally suited: a Duracell bunny engine, defensive nous and pin point passing to unleash Best, Rivaldo or Zico. His defensive contribution will help against Cruyff.


Luis Suarez Miramontes is the main playmaker who will have freedom to drop deeper or head forward as he sees fit- he is in his Ballon d'orr winning position for Inter, He had incredible vision and passing who will carve passes through Enigma's defence.


Forwards

George Best. What is there to say? The greatest winger of all-time. He had it all: speed, dribbling, crossing and goal scoring. He will be freed up in the set-up to play how he sees fit and will give Camacho a serious difficult time. He can also drift in so will have to be watched carefully by Nesta and Beckenbauer.

Rivaldo will play an inside left position where he can utilise his trickery and crossing but also be close enough to goal to be a serious scoring threat: at his peak he averaged over 1 in 2. He's also a big game player: he was the best player in World Cup 2002 and scored a hat-trick to secure Barca's place in the Champions League on the last day of the season including a last minute overhead kick from outside the area.

Finally my new addition of Zico. A true legend with awesome playmaking, dribbling and goal scoring ability - 48 goals in 70 games for Brazil effectively as a no.10. In this false 9 position he will have entire freedom to create or move forward and bag some goals. With Best and Rivaldo as options he will cause a serious headache for his back four.

Physiocrat

Spoiler: Original Formation

subs- R. Carvalho

Enigma_87/MJJ

Subs- Effenberg, Ruggeri and Toninho Cerezo.

 

[Physiocrat]

Enigma_87/MJJ

Squad summary and key points:

GK: Pat Jennings - "Good morning God," was how Arsenal's players greeted goalkeeper Pat Jennings during the great Irishman's reign as the teams undisputed number one in the 1970's and 1980's. He was the first goalkeeper to save with his feet consistently, his clearances got a good length and his goal kicks had a great distance. During his time he was one of the best in one-on-one situations which invariably saved Arsenal and Spurs a lot of the time. Incredibly agile just flung out of the goal mouth and pretty much caught anything.

RB: Manuel Amoros - Manuel Amoros was a versatile full-back which he was able to play both left and right-side without a significant different due to his great in both feet. He was an extraordinary wing-back in the world during 1980s with his fast, excellent movement, intelligent and skillful. He was really an excellent combo both defensively and offensively. Will be up against one of Rivaldo or Best. The combination of top notch speed and excellent defensive qualities should match well and will make him very hard to beat.

Amoros will also probably tuck in when facing Physio's winger(probably Rivaldo). Marzollini is more defensive minded full back so he won't be able to contribute all that much going forward and he'll have his hands full with Figo as well. When in possession he'll stretch Physio's left side as I'm not sure what defensive cover will Rivaldo/Best provide on the left and also with either of Schweinsteiger/Neeskens covering will free some space for Gerson or Beckenbauer to receive the ball and probably distribute it further to the pitch or make a forward run.

CB: Franco Baresi - Not much to say that is not known - Possibly the best defender ever and certainly the best on the pitch. Ray Wilkins probably describes him best - "Franco was the best player I have ever played with. The guy was world class to his core. He had everything – pace, two feet, and he was a leader of men". He'll be the last stop for anyone of Zico/Vieri/Best/Rivaldo. With his phenomenal reading of the game he was always where the ball was and was extremely tough for any striker to get a sniff at, and he played with the best.

CB: Alessandro Nesta - he won 5th European footballer of the year in 2000, was the best defender in the world in early 2000s which he won defender of the year almost every season. He was known for pace, strength, tackling, positional sense, tactical awareness, vision and technical ability unbecoming of a central defender – to name but a few of his qualities. He is a centre forward’s worst nightmare – a defender with no weaknesses to exploit, an irresistible force, an uncompromising machine that will, no matter the occasion, no matter the situation, remain focused on his sole mission: to stop the other team from scoring. Him and Baresi are excellent pair together and given their reading of the game and how tactically astute they are I expect them to keep all central dangers coming from Zico/Vieri at bay.

LB: J.A. Camacho - One of the most complete left back ever and a Real Madrid legend. Cafu level of stamina and tirelessness he'll chase everyone down the pitch, Finney as well. A quote of Mario Kempes describes him best : "If you think he sweats a lot as a coach, imagine how much he sweated as a player. He was like a hunting dog; wherever you went on the pitch, he went. You knew that if you looked over your shoulder, he'd be there waiting for you. He didn't talk either, he just breathed in a very strange way - "Fsst, fsst, fsst, fsst"! A real nightmare."

MC: Gerson - Best midfielder and second only to Pele in Brazil's best 1970 team. Gerson completely dominated the midfield, including a class performance against Italy in the final. He was the midfield dictator oozing elegance, vision and excellent range of passing. Man of the match in the final scoring a wonderful goal as well. Most famous for his technical and cerebral quality, his defensive game is somewhat under-appreciated with an aggression and commitment to the tackle not typical of the archetypal deep-lying playmaker(description shamelessly stolen from Gio from previos drafts).

DM/MC: Franz Beckenbauer - One of the best footballers of all time and if not the best defensive players to have played the game. He reinvented the sweeper position, but also his natural technique, reading of the game and talent allowed him to play anywhere in the middle, from sweeper position to DM(the modern DM position), CM and even box to box. Here he'll be covering the area in front of Baresi/Nesta, keeping an eye on Zico, but also he would distribute the ball like he always did from that position and if there is opening he'll also utilize the free space. Generally this position IMO is his bread and butter and would exploit his best qualities - organizing the team defensively in front of Baresi(who will organize the back 4), distribute the ball from deep and also making clever runs exploiting space and engaging couple of players around him.

Beckenbauer role is pretty important here and I'd like to underline that it will be mainly defensive - watching also for Zico and intercepting quick counter attacks or through balls from Physio's side. Of course when there is a space in front of him, his natural instinct and game will create opportunities and also drag opposition players out of position trying to cover for him.


example of some of Beckenbauer runs in space during the WC in 1966.

LW: Ryan Giggs - United and world legend. Blistering pace will be up against Andrade who will not be playing at his main position. Giggs would play a key role in this game beating with pace and trickery his man most of the time. Giggs also contributes for both ends - defensively and offensively, like Figo, which really helps control the midfield and get the ball back.

In the hole/free role - Johan Cruyff - best player in Europe's history bar none. He could defend comfortably like a regular in defence even in the back lines of the field. The central piece of the total football in the Mechanic Orange - ultimate General on the pitch, organizing total football on the pitch. In '74WC almost every actions started end finished with a pass of Cruyff, he came back to help and defend in the midfield, he started to defend in the opposite half of the pitch sometimes near the penalty area too - his condition of fitness made him able to run all the time.

RW: Luis Figo - 2000's Ballon D'Or winner has a decent shout of being one of the top right wingers of all time. Playing on either wing, Figo’s dribbling, stepovers, through balls, free-kicks, passes and reading of the game made him into a true legend. Recently Messi passed him in the all time Primera assist table after 11 years at Barca. Figo did it in 10. Excellent team player that can control the midfield and contribute both offensively and defensively.

CF: Thierry Henry - Peak Henry was one of those strikers that were unstoppable. His assist and goals tally speak for itself. He'll be up against Figueroa and Carvalho/T.Silva. While Figueroa is one of the best CB around T.Silva and Carvalho are certainly not on that level and IMO one of Physiocrat weaknesses in the team. I expect Henry to exploit that weakness and also engage Figueroa and Carvalho/Silva while Figo/Giggs can cut in at pace and score, or free space for Johan as well.

Key points:

Midfield battle. Both midfields should be set up similarly with Schweinsteiger/Neeskens holding for Physio and Beckenbauer/Gerson for us. While Schweinsteiger/Neeskens are world class players at their peak Beckenbauer is simply on another level. Gerson as well as he has shown at his peak can very much hold his on in midfield and also distribute the ball from the deep to either one of our fast wingers or to find Cruyff or Henry to work their magic.

Fullbacks/Wingers out wide comparison - we have 4 natural wide players that will play in their best respective positions - Camacho/Giggs on the left and Amoros/Figo on the right. I think our wing play is nicely balanced and no one out of the 4 won't look out of place in a QF of all time draft. Physio will probably deploy Rivaldo on the left, if that is the case - he is not the traditional left winger that will provide the natural left side width that he'll need in offence, given Marzollini being a more defensive minded left back.

Excellent central back line - we have Baresi and Nesta in the middle with Beckenbauer shielding. That's really tough and water tight formation. I don't see Physio's team getting much from the center with those in the middle in the park. On the other hand we have either Carvalho or Silva at CB position that will come against Henry and Cruyff in the center where I think we have advantage(keeping in mind that Figueroa will be occupied with either of Henry/Cruyff the other one will have a chance at 1vs 1 against the other CB).

Vieri vs Nesta/Baresi - I do rate Vieri as a striker that can be top striker in the right formation, but here he will be up against one of the all time greats. During his peak Vieri didn't have much luck in games against Nesta at the back and here he'll be also partnered with probably the best central defenders in the game.

Having the 3 most influential and best players in each line - we have Baresi at the back, Beckenbauer in the DM/CM position and generally holding and Cruyff up the park. That's a solid core in each line where all of those names are capable of organizing the players around them.

Physio weaknesses - Vieri and Carvalho/Silva - while Vieri and Physio's other CB choice are top players no doubt I think he'll have a issue bigging them up in all time draft QF.

 

[Physiocrat]

@Rado_N

Public poll please, votes visible and changeable, 24 hrs.

Physio wins by 1 goal
Physio wins by 2 goals
Physio wins by 3 goals
Enigma/MJJ wins by 1 goal
Enigma/MJJ wins by 2 goals
Enigma/MJJ wins by 3 goals

 

[Physiocrat]

@MJJ @Enigma_87

 

[Rado_N]

Boom.

 

[Physiocrat]

Boom.

I'm slowly thinking that Redcafe has evolved in to a true AI and his name is Rado_N.

 

[Rado_N]

I'm slowly thinking that Redcafe has evolved in to a true AI and his name is Rado_N.

I aim to please!

 

[Enigma_87]

Thanks
@Physiocrat and good luck! and @Rado_N for the quick response.

 

[Enigma_87]

Right off the bat I see Best on the right so we will have Camacho tight on him in this game. Camacho is reknown for his man marking abilities and this will come handy in this game. He'll watch over Best. Camacho is an excellent man marker and while not completely shutting him down he'll press him with his endless reservoir of stamina and also win some 1 on 1's, while if beaten we'll have either Nesta/Baresi covering for this game.

Didn't expect to see Zico leading the line. Although he has good goal scoring record he's a traditional #10 and most of his goal scoring attributes is his long range efforts and also shooting from distance with face to the goal.

In this game he will be most of the time with his back to the goal and we will have a lot of defensive options on Physio's main attacking threats - Zico, Rivaldo and Best.

also I noticed Marzolini and his dribbling and crossing attributes. During the draft I've did some research on him and from what I've seen of him he's not that kind of a player like Cafu, Zanetti or Amoros. He'll occasionally join the attack but his game was more defensive minded and relevant to the era in which he played.

also forgot the subs. @Physiocrat can you update our subs please - Effenberg, Ruggeri and Toninho Cerezo.

 

[MJJ]

Off to sleep, but will say zico as a false 9 seems a bit weird. He excelled as a number 10, playing behind a striker. I wouldnt really expect him to be at his GOAT levels in such an unexpected position despite having the characteristics for the position.

And schweign. as a DM against cruyff?

 

[Šjor Bepo]

i only watched Beckenbauer as a centerback so i can only assume how he played in midfield based on his style of play and if im right in my assumption he was someone who controlled the game from the deep and he is partnered with Gerson who performed in a similar fashion....

as for the second team, playing with false nine requires wide players that will make constant unselfish runs without the ball, are Rivaldo and Best the right types for that role?

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

i only watched Beckenbauer as a centerback so i can only assume how he played in midfield based on his style of play and if im right in my assumption he was someone who controlled the game from the deep and he is partnered with Gerson who performed in a similar fashion....

Even as a CB he wasn't controlling the game from the deep. You can see him up forward trying to score himself.
Then again, I somehow don't see this as a complimentary partnership.

 

[Enigma_87]

i only watched Beckenbauer as a centerback so i can only assume how he played in midfield based on his style of play and if im right in my assumption he was someone who controlled the game from the deep and he is partnered with Gerson who performed in a similar fashion....

as for the second team, playing with false nine requires wide players that will make constant unselfish runs without the ball, are Rivaldo and Best the right types for that role?

Beckenbauer reinvented the sweeper position, he was the so called roaming libero - he was not playing pinned to the back that was not his game at all.

Here's a nice piece on his game and the position he occupied:

Franz Beckenbauer is forever known as the player who personified the sweeper position. In reality, he played as a box-to-box midfielder for most of his career. In 1966, he dominated the midfield at the World Cup Finals at the age of 20. He ran and down the field. He demonstrated his power and skills by scoring 4 brilliant goals. By 1970, he was playing a more withdrew position, but not yet the sweeper position where he would became known for. Finally, he played his first WC as a sweeper in 1974, where he was credited for revolutionising the position.

Throughout the 1960's, Helmut Schön, the German manager at the time, did not want Beckenbauer to play the sweeper role. He believed that Beckenbauer should be playing as the link between midfield and attack. His talents would be waste at the back. Beckenbauer spent most of his playing time in the midfield while Germany used mainly Willi Schulz or Karl-Heinz Schnellinger as their sweeper. Many people in Germany shared the same view. However, Beckenbauer viewed the sweeper position differently. By playing behind the 9 other outfielders on his team, he could see the entire field in front of him, not only a third. The sweeper could control the attacks more thoroughly from behind.

While Beckenbauer could not play the sweeper role with the national team, he got his opportunity to play there for his club team, Bayern Munich. Tschik Cajkovski, the Bayern manager at that time, received a lot criticism for "wasting" Beckenbauer's talent at the back. Soon, Bayern Munich found successes with Beckenbauer playing at the back. Suddenly, Beckenbauer playing as an offensive-minded sweeper, it seemed, was visionary. By 1971, public opinion switched. Beckenbauer had physical prowess to tackle and play central defence. He also had the intelligence to organise a defence and his ability as a playmaker allowed him to move the ball quickly up the field. The rest is well-known history in soccer. Beckenbauer became known as the father of the offensive-minded sweeper as West Germany won the WC in 1974.

In modern day formation and flat back four Beckenbauer is more of a DM position rather than last man at the back. The main responsibilities of the holding midfielder nowadays are to protect the center defenders and to be the link between the backs and the attackers. He will serve as a pivot when the team wants to switch the point of attack.

 

[Physiocrat]

Right off the bat I see Best on the right so we will have Camacho tight on him in this game. Camacho is reknown for his man marking abilities and this will come handy in this game. He'll watch over Best. Camacho is an excellent man marker and while not completely shutting him down he'll press him with his endless reservoir of stamina and also win some 1 on 1's, while if beaten we'll have either Nesta/Baresi covering for this game.

Camacho is a quality defender but he'll have a tough time against him given all the creativity I have behind him.

Didn't expect to see Zico leading the line. Although he has good goal scoring record he's a traditional #10 and most of his goal scoring attributes is his long range efforts and also shooting from distance with face to the goal.

Playing as a false 9 does not mean you play with your back to goal often at all. Zico will constantly be dropping deep with Best or Rivaldo taking up more central positions for him to create as he pleases. When Messi played as a false 9 he didn't often have his back to goal as Vieri would do and if he did it would be to feet.

You're also forgetting Suarez who is an excellent passer who will be able to provide that guile from deep too.

On your side I was expecting a 3-4-3 really. Giggs and Henry is not optimal and will clash with each other. Beckenbauer as a proper CB libero or a box-to-box midfielder is great but the position he's been given I think will nullify is forward contributions or leave Gerson without any mates which isn't good when up against Bastian, Neeskens and Suarez. Amoros is a capable full back but I can see Rivaldo giving him some trouble especially with Marzolini overlapping. Now it is true he played quite defensively for Argentina in '66 however from what I read he was a much more attacking full-back at club level and this forward ability was what marked him out from his contemporaries.

 

[crappycraperson]

If only Cryuff was in Zico's role and vice versa.

 

[Physiocrat]

as for the second team, playing with false nine requires wide players that will make constant unselfish runs without the ball, are Rivaldo and Best the right types for that role?

Best and Rivaldo are intelligent and hardly lazy players who will love all the through balls Zico brings. It's true they'll have to make runs infield however I don't see this being against the grain of their natural game.

 

[Enigma_87]

Even as a CB he wasn't controlling the game from the deep. You can see him up forward trying to score himself.
Then again, I somehow don't see this as a complimentary partnership.

This is precisely what I had in mind with this example:



Here he started as a CB but due to Argentina taking the lead you can see how he dictated the game most of the time. Almost all attacks started with him - either using him in the build up or his movement creating space. That is not one of his best games as well.

 

[Physiocrat]

This is precisely what I had in mind with this example:



Here he started as a CB but due to Argentina taking the lead you can see how he dictated the game most of the time. Almost all attacks started with him - either using him in the build up or his movement creating space. That is not one of his best games as well.

That's the problem. Bombing forward like that leaves Gerson as a one man midfield. This is will allow me a lot of options on the counter.

 

[Enigma_87]

Camacho is a quality defender but he'll have a tough time against him given all the creativity I have behind him.

Camacho is quality man marker and one of the best left backs in the game. Sure we can not expect to fully shut Best down, but we have plenty of support at the back to intercept Best.

Playing as a false 9 does not mean you play with your back to goal often at all. Zico will constantly be dropping deep with Best or Rivaldo taking up more central positions for him to create as he pleases. When Messi played as a false 9 he didn't often have his back to goal as Vieri would do and if he did it would be to feet.

Zico was an old school #10. He really didn't play in the false 9 position and it's not really surprising having the quality up front in Brazil's attack. If you are aiming at possession game surely that would mean tighter spaces and his back to the goal most of the time?

You're also forgetting Suarez who is an excellent passer who will be able to provide that guile from deep too.

On your side I was expecting a 3-4-3 really. Giggs and Henry is not optimal and will clash with each other. Beckenbauer as a proper CB libero or a box-to-box midfielder is great but the position he's been given I think will nullify is forward contributions or leave Gerson without any mates which isn't good when up against Bastian, Neeskens and Suarez. Amoros is a capable full back but I can see Rivaldo giving him some trouble especially with Marzolini overlapping. Now it is true he played quite defensively for Argentina in '66 however from what I read he was a much more attacking full-back at club level and this forward ability was what marked him out from his contemporaries.

Marzolini didn't really overlap that often from what I know. I don't think he was an attacking full back at all. Most of the full backs from that era were also quite defensive minded and Marzolini I think is one of them.

Also I don't think Henry and Giggs clash at all I feel that topic beaten to death but really both are intelligent players, Giggs can attack the space if Henry goes wide as he has done in his peak years.

I think more issues with clashing roles is Zico and Rivaldo. To me and seeing Rivaldo he occupies pretty much the space you have intended to put Zico in.

 

[Enigma_87]

If only Cryuff was in Zico's role and vice versa.

I thought of using Cruyff as a false nine and behind say Zidane/Zico type but IMO in this way his influence and generally his best free roaming role will be limited.

That's the problem. Bombing forward like that leaves Gerson as a one man midfield. This is will allow me a lot of options on the counter.

Beckenbauer is not instructed to bomb forward. His main role is intercepting play, linking the defence and attack and also getting the ball back.

Those are really his best qualities and having in mind the position and zone in which he operated during his time I think that's his best role.

Now the sweeper role in a zonal 4 man defence is really extinct, the role of the modern holding midfield and DM and the qualities that you needed to play there is what in reality Beckenbauer did all throughout his career.

We don't really expect him to run the game. He's not the best passer on the pitch - those are Cruyff and Gerson. He will link up and also participate in the build up.

 

[Mciahel Goodman]

I know Beckenbauer was extremely versatile, but how good was he in midfield really?

 

[Enigma_87]

I know Beckenbauer was extremely versatile, but how good was he in midfield really?

Check out the quotes that I posted mate. Beckenbauer throughout his career played as much in midfield as in defence.

When Germany were playing Schulz and Schnellinger in defence he was in midfield, in WC 66 he was as box to box as you can tell.

In reality if he was to play today and above formation he would be a holding midfielder - a position and zone he usually covered himself.

 

[crappycraperson]

I thought of using Cruyff as a false nine and behind say Zidane/Zico type but IMO in this way his influence and generally his best free roaming role will be limited.

Cryuff's best role was as a false 9. Not sure if he will jive well with a Zidane or Zico in the team as well. Like I said in the last match, I like the duo of Henry and Cryuff actually. I actually think

Henry - Cryuff - Figo will make a great front 3. Giggs in your attack is a bit redundant for me. And against someone like Vogts, he also has very less chance of making any kind of impact.

BTW can't believe that Physcio has not brought up Vogsts marking Cryuff in 74 final.

 

[Enigma_87]

Cryuff's best role was as a false 9. Not sure if he will jive well with a Zidane or Zico in the team as well. Like I said in the last match, I like the duo of Henry and Cryuff actually. I actually think

Henry - Cryuff - Figo will make a great front 3. Giggs in your attack is a bit redundant for me. And against someone like Vogts, he also has very less chance of making any kind of impact.

BTW can't believe that Physcio has not brought up Vogsts marking Cryuff in 74 final.

Well we had Giggs in there with Vogts in mind. Vogts will have to look for him and mark him, while in the same time Cruyff will get more free role.

Still Cruyff in that game created the peno with which the Dutch took the lead.

Sure we can put Henry on the left or inside left-ish role but that would restrict his game. I can see both Giggs/Cruyff and Henry combining well and we need Giggs to stretch Physio's right hand side. Best won't provide any support to Vogts and with Amoros as well in mind we can create man to man advantage there. Also Giggs can be very useful on the counter as he's arguably the fastest player on the pitch.

 

[Physiocrat]

Zico was an old school #10. He really didn't play in the false 9 position and it's not really surprising having the quality up front in Brazil's attack. If you are aiming at possession game surely that would mean tighter spaces and his back to the goal most of the time?

I think more issues with clashing roles is Zico and Rivaldo. To me and seeing Rivaldo he occupies pretty much the space you have intended to put Zico in.

Zico wasn't an old school 10. He was more like Platini except he didn't drop as deep. For example when playing for Brazil in 82 Eder would peel wide to allow him to get closer to goal and to score, Zico's style is not that of Riquelme. Rivaldo and Zico are similar in some respects, that's undeniable however crucially Rivaldo is more of a creative second-striker whereas Zico is much more of a playmaker so I don't think you'll lose much if anything from Rivaldo who can thrive in that inside left channel against Amoros which brings me to.

Marzolini didn't really overlap that often from what I know. I don't think he was an attacking full back at all. Most of the full backs from that era were also quite defensive minded and Marzolini I think is one of them.

At the age of 15, Marzolini moved on to Ferro Carril Oeste and as made his way through the ranks at the club, his belief in his own abilities led him into conflict with the club's authorities. Marzolini demanded a place in the first team and threatened to quit football if he didn't get it, leading to his suspension by the club. Having made a number of a trial appearances for other teams, Ferro eventually realised what an asset they had and brought him back into the fold, giving him a first team debut in 1959 against Boca Juniors.

Marzolini immediately became first choice at left-back, where he was able to combine his defensive strength and aerial ability with great skill on the ball and an attacking instinct which gave him huge influence over the whole left side of the pitch. After helping Ferro to finish in joint-third place in 1959, he was signed by Boca Juniors ahead of the 1960 season and went on the spent the rest of his playing career with the club.

How Marzolini played in '66 is not how he was at club level. Such quotes don't indicate a conservative full-back. Now I'm not making him out to be Roberto Carlos but he could definitely provide good width from left-back. It's true I'm asking him to be more attacking than he may have been used to at club level but he has all the attributes to do so, it's just no-one played the way I'm doing back then.

Also I don't think Henry and Giggs clash at all I feel that topic beaten to death but really both are intelligent players, Giggs can attack the space if Henry goes wide as he has done in his peak years.

Still, it's a big question mark.

 

[Enigma_87]

For me the biggest issue that Physio would face in this game is having the front three of Zico, Rivaldo and Best together on the pitch. He has one winger(or say AM in Best case), a classic #10 and an attacking midfielder(#10,SS) in Rivaldo.

I can see Rivaldo and Zico getting in each other's way too often, and I'm not sure Zico role at false nine will work as he hasn't played there from my memories at all and the reference with Brazil's goal scoring record he always played behind the striker(s).

I think as well that Schweini in box to box role would suit Physio better in this formation rather than DM.

Then we have Thiago Silva who I think is the weak link in the starting 22. I don't believe he has the quality to be named on the first sheet there. Yes he is one of the best CB nowadays but it is one of the weakest era of CB that we've ever seen. The other great CB of the last years is Ramos and that says a lot of the quality nowadays, compared to Baresi and Nesta that we have in our side.

 

[Physiocrat]

Well we had Giggs in there with Vogts in mind. Vogts will have to look for him and mark him, while in the same time Cruyff will get more free role.

Still Cruyff in that game created the peno with which the Dutch took the lead.

Sure we can put Henry on the left or inside left-ish role but that would restrict his game. I can see both Giggs/Cruyff and Henry combining well and we need Giggs to stretch Physio's right hand side. Best won't provide any support to Vogts and with Amoros as well in mind we can create man to man advantage there.

Forgetting Neeksens aren't we?

On Vogts vs Cruyff- obviously Vogts performed an awesome man-marking job on him but here I want him to maintain the shape at the back more than do a man marking job. We're defending as a team with intelligent positioning to limit Cruyff not putting Ji Sung Park on Pirlo.

 

[Enigma_87]

How Marzolini played in '66 is not how he was at club level. Such quotes don't indicate a conservative full-back. Now I'm not making him out to be Roberto Carlos but he could definitely provide good width from left-back. It's true I'm asking him to be more attacking than he may have been used to at club level but he has all the attributes to do so, it's just no-one played the way I'm doing back then.

Well most of the footage we have is from that WC and seeing that it doesn't suggest he was aggressive at all. There are also some Boca videos and generally his game is like the WC in 66 one.

Most of the reports on him are being more cautious type right footed left back(hardly a difference of course) who would join the attack but most likely push up until the middle of the park.

Forgetting Neeksens aren't we?

On Vogts vs Cruyff- obviously Vogts performed an awesome man-marking job on him but here I want him to maintain the shape at the back more than do a man marking job. We're defending as a team with intelligent positioning to limit Cruyff not putting Ji Sung Park on Pirlo.

Neeskens is quality of course but so is Gerson in our side. Gerson similarly to Carrick can play the holding role and distribute the ball. He has excellent reading of the game and that would help him intercept some passes in the middle of the park.

Our game is based on scoring a goal and then killing it on the counter. We have Giggs/Figo/Henry/Cruyff who are very fast and skillful, combined with Gerson passing ability that is a proper weapon.

If we take the lead I can see us shutting the game down as through the middle we have Beckenbauer/Nesta and Baresi and both Amoros and Camacho are excellent defensively.

Neeskens and Schweini are great engines but I don't see them helping you a lot in a tight spaces and we have the movement at the back to close and press very quickly.

 

[Physiocrat]

I can see Rivaldo and Zico getting in each other's way too often, and I'm not sure Zico role at false nine will work as he hasn't played there from my memories at all and the reference with Brazil's goal scoring record he always played behind the striker(s).

He did play behind the striker for Brazil but it was hardly an orthodox CF. See my Eder comment above.

I think as well that Schweini in box to box role would suit Physio better in this formation rather than DM.

Bastian can play in both roles but he's at his best when the play is in front of him. He'll suit this role down to the ground.

Then we have Thiago Silva who I think is the weak link in the starting 22. I don't believe he has the quality to be named on the first sheet there. Yes he is one of the best CB nowadays but it is one of the weakest era of CB that we've ever seen. The other great CB of the last years is Ramos and that says a lot of the quality nowadays, compared to Baresi and Nesta that we have in our side.

Low blow with the Ramos comparison. Silva averages a yellow card one every 16 games whereas Ramos' is probably one in two. Obviously the current crop of CBs aren't what they used to be but Silva is clearly a cut above. He's not Nesta but he's darn close and being aided by Elias Figueroa who's arguably the best CB on the pitch I don't see Henry creating too many problems - his favoured inside left channel is covered by Vogts and Figueroa.

My big problems with Enigma's side:

Henry and Giggs has way to much position and stylistic similarity to work.

Beckenbauer always had much more protection to cover his forward runs. In 66' Germany's back four pretty much stayed where they were and was partnered with Overath, a man with huge lungs not a languid CM like Gerson; in '74 he had two box-to-box midfielders in front of him in Bonhof and Overath. So either Der Kaiser has limited effect going forward or leaves Gerson as a Billy No Mates.

Amoros was more known for his support going forward than pure defensive ability and will have trouble when faced with Rivaldo and Marzolini.
Amoros is not the ideal

 

[Physiocrat]

6-1 down already. Any neutral thoughts?

 

[Enigma_87]

He did play behind the striker for Brazil but it was hardly an orthodox CF. See my Eder comment above.

Still he played behind a striker, here he's expected to engage defenders and also be the target man when you have the ball. Also in that Brazillian side they had wingers that can stretch the game. Here you have Best - who fits in the criteria and Rivaldo, who I think doesn't...

Bastian can play in both roles but he's at his best when the play is in front of him. He'll suit this role down to the ground.

yeah I agree, I just think he'll be best as box to box, with Neeskens besides him and Zico in his favorite #10 position. This is how I thought you would line up to be fair.

Low blow with the Ramos comparison. Silva averages a yellow card one every 16 games whereas Ramos' is probably one in two. Obviously the current crop of CBs aren't what they used to be but Silva is clearly a cut above. He's not Nesta but he's darn close and being aided by Elias Figueroa who's arguably the best CB on the pitch I don't see Henry creating too many problems - his favoured inside left channel is covered by Vogts and Figueroa.

Well I don't think being the best of his generation having in mind that the other top CB around are Koscielny,Ramos, Kompany, etc tell the whole story

I also I don't rate T.Silva that highly to be fair. No doubt his athleticism and natural ability but there are a lot of areas that I can see him not up to par with the great defenders that we used to watch.

As for Figueroa being the best CB on the pitch I have to disagree - there's only one best CB on the pitch and that's Baresi.

My big problems with Enigma's side:

Henry and Giggs has way to much position and stylistic similarity to work.

This subject was touched a lot but let me reiterate:
We're talking about peak Henry here and peak Giggs. Giggs was a wide man in 4-4-2 but he cut inside a lot when he was at his best and still had his speed. He could quickly change direction and attack the free space. Henry of course had tendency to drift wide, but I don't see a problem here as this is a natural movement that all modern strikers do. It's not like Giggs will hug the touchline and stand still when Henry moves wide.

Beckenbauer always had much more protection to cover his forward runs. In 66' Germany's back four pretty much stayed where they were and was partnered with Overath, a man with huge lungs not a languid CM like Gerson; in '74 he had two box-to-box midfielders in front of him in Bonhof and Overath. So either Der Kaiser has limited effect going forward or leaves Gerson as a Billy No Mates.

Der Kaiser won't bomb forward or be a box to box in this game. I was explaining his style and the ground he covered most of the time rather than his role in this game. We've explained it in the tactics - he'll be a holding midfielder and will make an occasional forward run if he's into space like he did. He won't play box to box or expect to be a playmaker in our side - that's reserved for Gerson in that role.

We have plenty of match winners in forward position to expect Beckenbauer to decide the game for us. Now if he can snap in a goal from long range is always welcomed But his role will be anchor/pivot and link defence with midfield and also protect the back 4.

Amoros was more known for his support going forward than pure defensive ability and will have trouble when faced with Rivaldo and Marzolini.
Amoros is not the ideal

Amoros is equally good going forward as he's defensively. He's not as aggressive as Cafu for example who in his turn is not as aggressive as R.Carlos. Marzolini I don't think will offer that much going forward and still he has Figo to worry about.

 

[VivaJanuzaj]

6-1 down already. Any neutral thoughts?

Yes, as much as I rate Schweini, Cruyff is going to find a lot of space there with Henry's movement. I also really the rate how that front four of Henry-Cruyff-Giggs-Figo will work, Figo and Giggs could be very complimentary to Johan with their hard work which will prove to be vital. The choice of bringing in the great Figueroa was the wise one, but I think he will simply have much more of the ball and much more sight of goal with a very juicy fluid team.

 

[VivaJanuzaj]

@Enigma_87 not taking any credit from your part in it, but this a classic @MJJ team. Very very well built.

 

[Enigma_87]

@Enigma_87 not taking any credit from your part in it, but this a classic @MJJ team. Very very well built.

Thanks, mate. No worries I'm happy with MJJ being part of it and we rarely had argument in our picks. Only for John Charles at CB from what I remember.

 

[Moby]

If only Cryuff was in Zico's role and vice versa.

THIS.

 

[Gio]

I like the idea of Zico as a false 9 insofar as it plays to his nimble goalscoring strengths. It's obviously an unproven idea but much of the rationale behind these drafts is to test players in new situations which their skillset matches. That's the key issue for me - not whether they're 'proven' in doing that role, but whether it would work, why, and if not, why not? Would like to hear a bit more on that. What seems important is how well the rest of the midfield and attack link with him to provide the service to make that idea work.

The Baresi/Nesta partnership is pure defensive sex. While I rate both Amoros and Camacho, they are in for a tough time given the rarefied calibre of the wide threat. Zico dropping for Rivaldo to penetrate the inside-left channel between full-back and centre-half looks like a credible route to goal.

At the other end, I have Figueroa on par with Baresi so him and Silva whose athleticism is useful here should be able to snuff out Henry.

To be honest I'd have preferred to see Toninho Cerezo partner Beckenbauer (or Gerson) there. Beckenbauer is totally wasted doing the leg-work for Gerson (and vice versa). Gerson just isn't really the guy to cover the Kaiser's forays forward with the ball. Especially with Zico dropping into the hole to further complicate matters. Obviously it's very easy on the eye but peeling beneath the surface I don't think that works.

Der Kaiser won't bomb forward or be a box to box in this game. I was explaining his style and the ground he covered most of the time rather than his role in this game. We've explained it in the tactics - he'll be a holding midfielder and will make an occasional forward run if he's into space like he did. He won't play box to box or expect to be a playmaker in our side - that's reserved for Gerson in that role.

That's fair enough, but he has lines going forward and backwards so it's hard to equate that with what you've said above.

 

[Enigma_87]

To be honest I'd have preferred to see Toninho Cerezo partner Beckenbauer (or Gerson) there. Beckenbauer is totally wasted doing the leg-work for Gerson (and vice versa). Gerson just isn't really the guy to cover the Kaiser's forays forward with the ball. Especially with Zico dropping into the hole to further complicate matters. Obviously it's very easy on the eye but peeling beneath the surface I don't think that works.

Well Toninho brings the legs, stamina/dynamism to the table but he's no where near Gerson on the ball and his passing range and ability. Gerson has the positional sense and reading of the game so that he can hold his own in midfield. Gerson brings more to the table on the ball and with his passing tho.

That's fair enough, but he has lines going forward and backwards so it's hard to equate that with what you've said above.

I know that Beckenbauer is known for his sweeper role and his role in midfield would be not so familiar for some, hence I was trying to depict more his movement on the pitch and also his general game. In this game tho I'd rather have him shielding the back 4 instead of going with Toninho and having Beckenbauer as box to box. I think having Beckenbauer as box to box will be hard to put it through as he is usually more known for his defensive presence and also I think that having him as anchor/pivot protecting the back for is the best way to get the best out of him.

We would also sacrifice Gerson playmaking game from deep and will be too reliant on Cruyff to dictate the game in this case we have a bit better distribution and if Cruyff is doubled Gerson can open up space with a pass to our highly mobile front line.

I know that we are sacrificing his bombing forward and having him in a more restricted role, but I think that's the best way to utilize Gerson as well who we need to combine with Cruyff and Figo/Giggs on the wing.

I also think that having Beckenbauer as anchor and having the first touch after we get the ball back or put it into play will be better in this case than having him in a more advanced role.

As for Zico dropping back I think having a trio of Beckenbauer/Baresi/Nesta in the middle is something that you can hardly improve on so I think we are tight and solid at the back.

Having also Camacho as LB and a relentless man marker of Best in this case and Amoros who is also excellent at the back we can close space very quickly and shout out Physio's forwards.

I think having Zico/Rivaldo/Best as a front line makes it a tad easier for our defensive line than having a target man and Zico off him. But it's understandable for Physio to drop Vieri as most probably he'd be mauled having in mind the strikers left in the QF's stage.

Also we need Gerson to be able to spray passes on the wings as we need to use our strengths and we have natural width on both sides.

Of course Effenberg can also be used in Gerson's role but I think he is a tad better player for the qualities that we need.

 

[Physiocrat]

I like the idea of Zico as a false 9 insofar as it plays to his nimble goalscoring strengths. It's obviously an unproven idea but much of the rationale behind these drafts is to test players in new situations which their skillset matches. That's the key issue for me - not whether they're 'proven' in doing that role, but whether it would work, why, and if not, why not? Would like to hear a bit more on that. What seems important is how well the rest of the midfield and attack link with him to provide the service to make that idea work.

Someone with imagination.

On more direct counters all the back four a comfortable enough on the ball to move it quickly to Suarez. He then plays a high and long pass to Best who terrorises Camacho. Zico drops away from Baresi and Nesta with neither knowing whether to follow (also since it's a counter Beckenbauer is likley to be higher up the pitch), Rivaldo sneaks between Nesta for a quick low-cross to Rivaldo from Best. Alternatively he can cut it back to Zico who can play Marzolini in down the left channel, play a one-two with Rivaldo, bring in Neekens who is busting a gut from midfield or shoot.

On less direct plays Zico will on occasions drop into similar space and will be mindful of the watching Kaiser. Rivaldo can offer a similar option as before but in this case a through ball to Best between Baresi and Camacho is another option. Otherwise he can hold it up (at his feet, not in the air- the quality of passing from the team will make this with relative ease) and bring Neeskens and Suarez into play from midfield. Zico can then link with a triangle of him Best and Neeskens on the right or him Rivaldo and Marzolini on the left. In either case swift one touch play and one twos between the full-back and CBs to slip Zico in.

 

[Enigma_87]

Someone with imagination.

On more direct counters all the back four a comfortable enough on the ball to move it quickly to Suarez. He then plays a high and long pass to Best who terrorises Camacho. Zico drops away from Baresi and Nesta with neither knowing whether to follow (also since it's a counter Beckenbauer is likley to be higher up the pitch), Rivaldo sneaks between Nesta for a quick low-cross to Rivaldo from Best. Alternatively he can cut it back to Zico who can play Marzolini in down the left channel, play a one-two with Rivaldo, bring in Neekens who is busting a gut from midfield or shoot.

Just to reiterate Beckenbauer will not be higher up the pitch. His role is anchor/pivot first and foremost. He'll protect the back for as his main role and will be in front of Baresi/Nesta. If Zico drops away he'll cover him while one of Nesta/Baresi will cover for Camacho if he's beaten and the other of Nesta/Baresi will be last line of defence. If Amoros is up the pitch(who will tuck in for Rivaldo in that situation) we again have one of Nesta/Baresi to watch for Rivaldo. I don't think you'll get more numbers in attack having in mind the formation both teams are set up.

On less direct plays Zico will on occasions drop into similar space and will be mindful of the watching Kaiser. Rivaldo can offer a similar option as before but in this case a through ball to Best between Baresi and Camacho is another option. Otherwise he can hold it up (at his feet, not in the air- the quality of passing from the team will make this with relative ease) and bring Neeskens and Suarez into play from midfield. Zico can then link with a triangle of him Best and Neeskens on the right or him Rivaldo and Marzolini on the left. In either case swift one touch play and one twos between the full-back and CBs to slip Zico in.

I think there lies the problem with Rivaldo and Zico working in the same zone. You'll have Zico dropping back as a false nine and in the same time Rivaldo tucking in from inside left.

If Marzolini rushes in and we get the ball we have Amoros and Figo creating advantage on the right and I can't see Rivaldo bothering to cover or tracking back. This will result either Neeskens/ Schweini covering for him on the right and thus creating space for Cruyff to work his magic in the middle.

On counter we're far more likely to score as Zico and Rivaldo I'm not sure will outrun Amoros or anyone of Der Kaiser, Nesta or Baresi. For one Zico is slowest of them all.

Sure you have Best but we're sacrificing Camacho there to mark him tightly.

 

[Enigma_87]

Going with slight tactical change to remove the forward arrow on Beckenbauer so that the we don't confuse Der Kaiser role in here as it has been mentioned couple of times.