Billy No Mates Draft QF: Invictus/Theon vs harms

What will the result be?


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Moby

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Team Invictus/ Theon

We will don the Blaugrana kit - to honor the latest addition to our squad.


Gameplan



The team will play with a medium to high defensive line because our back 4 of Briegel-Cannavro-Stam-Alberto is incredibly athletic with great pace; and Manuel Neuer can rush out to expand this particular area of the pitch with his command over the general penalty area on top of his feline shot stopping skills. Hans-Peter Briegel is tasked with controlling Rummenigge, and he has the pedigree as well as the physical skillset to handle that assignment to a degree. He will play a balanced game - joining Gento when he needs to, but never letting his eyes off Rummenigge. On the other side, the magnificent Carlos Alberto will venture forward in a calculating fashion (like only he can) but never forsaking his defensive responsibilities, though we don't really envisage a situation where Rensenbrink will cause him a lot of trouble.

In the center, Cannavaro and Stam complement each other beautifully, and form the ideal vanguard to stop the timeless Pelé. Jaap Stam the physically violent bully, and Fabio Cannavaro the imperious presence who will try to stifle the Brazilian great, and individually - as well as a duo, they have requisite defensive nous, man marking ability and speed to contain Pelé's influence on the game, not all of it - we're not going to diminish an iconic legend of the game, but enough to maybe bog him down. Overall, the back four were all athletic and possessed fantastic pace, whilst Neuer is the modern day gold-standard when it comes to rushing out and sweeping up behind a defense.

We will look to dominate possession in midfield and create chances for a devastating attack built around Van Basten, Michel Platini and the newest attacking addition to the starting XI - Lionel Messi. We will control the flow of the game through the Platini-Redondo-Sammer axis in the middle of the pitch - all fantastic passers and capable of dictating the game against any midfield. The most important role on the pitch is given to our captain - Matthias Sammer, the heartbeat of our XI, whilst El Principe - Fernando Redondo offers exquisite control to the game and instigates attacks from deep whilst providing a secondary playmaking threat beyond Michel Platini. And all of them fit together like pieces of a jigsaw puzzle.

Roaming throughout the midfield is Michel Platini, three time Ballon d'Or winner, and the greatest offensive midfielder that Europe has ever produced. Technically flawless and amongst the most accomplished passers in the history of the game, Platini was also a consistent goal threat - on ten occasions he scored 25 goals or more in a season, at his peak scoring 82 goals in 139 games in 80's Serie A, as well as a record 9 goals in 5 games for France at Euro '84.

In attack the unrivaled Van Basten will stretch the field vertically, whilst the classic speed merchant Gento stretches the field horizontally - creating room for Platini in the middle and stretching harms' back line, and allowing a bit of freedom to the ace up our sleeve - Lionel Messi in a right inside forward role of sorts. On the left, the record six time European Cup winner Francisco Gento offers exceptional pace to open up the channels, attack the byline, link up with Platini, provide deft movement and evade his marker to drift in centrally, hit crosses over to Van Basten - his attacking arsenal is extremely diverse, and he is a perfect tactical fit for what we're trying to implement with this team.

Three time Ballon d'Or winner Marco Van Basten leads the line - his unique blend of acrobatic - gravity defying skill, physicality and ruthless finishing (honed in the treacherous environs of late 80s/ early 90s Serie A) is extremely harsh to defend against. Completely rounded, two footed and capable of scoring all types of goals - he is the ideal linchpin to lead our attack, and offers a devastating hold up threat to free up even more space for the assortment of creative talents behind him, especially the wee Argentine who'll be licking his lips at the chance to turns the opposition defense inside out.

The last member of our starting XI needs no introduction, but we'll give one anyway, because why not? He is someone who can make a genuine claim at being considered the best footballer of all time, and certainly, undoubtedly - the best of the post-Maradona era. In this player, we have someone who can go toe to toe with the opposition's big threat - Pelé. 5 Ballon D'Or awards, 80 goals in ~100 European matches, a member of the World XI for 9 consecutive seasons, and so forth; 440 goals in ~500 games at the highest level of European football, 170 club assists to highlight his creative threat, scorer of 58 goals and provider of 26 assists in 57 games just last season from the position we're asking him to play in - the indomitable Lionel Messi. He will play off Bossis, utilizing the vacant island between the inside and outside channels, and has the freedom to improvise - drifting in and out with his mesmerizing dribbling ability, unleashing his supreme creative skillset, and rampaging goalwards behind Van Basten.


Matthias Sammer's Role

So, let's talk about Matthias Sammer. But wait, first - let's segue into another issue - what separates the good from the truly great? Consistency, length of career, achievements, performances in key moments, peaks - all these things are generally at the top of the list when separating them in a spectrum. But one thing that is often underrated is the ability of the greats to play beyond their limits - to be overtasked and still perform exceptionally - that can often separate them from the hoi polloi.

Within the framework of our team, Sammer has complete freedom to help out defensively and offensively as he feels fit, just like he's done a thousand times before. He is joining the midfield battle to make it a 3 and assert his dominance as an advanced libero (which is kind of what the modern defensive midfielder is) - fluidly transitioning between roles, keeping an eye on Netzer, reading the game and act accordingly, operating in the free/ libero role to influence the game, linking up with Redondo, moving the chains for Platini and Messi, dropping slightly deeper from time to time to stifle out attacks, cutting off the supply routes to Pelé, and supporting the attacking game from a 'sunken' midfield position with grace and skill - he will be exactly where he needs to be - the active heartbeat of our XI.

Is he overtasked with all these roles? You betcha. But that's the beauty of it, and that's why Sammer was chosen - he can perform this free role as well as probably anyone in football history bar only Der Kaiser himself. That's just what great players do, especially ones as intelligent as Sammer - they operate at 110%, and they make physical sacrifices for the team when the match is at stake. The more that's asked of Sammer, the better he'll perform, the more he's stretched to his limits defensively, the better he'll tackle. They didn't call playing against him like playing with a team that has 12 players for nothing. And since he's a better defender than every defensive midfielder in the draft by virtue of actually being a world class pure defender, he provides a magnificent sense of stability and dynamism to our team from the general defensive midfield area.


Articles & Profiles

Manuel Neuer

Carlos Alberto

Jaap Stam

Fabio Cannavaro

Hans-Peter Briegel

Matthias Sammer

Fernando Redondo

Michel Platini

Francisco Gento

Lionel Messi

Marco Van Basten


TEAM INVICTUS/THEON
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Subs: Giuseppe Meazza, Jorginho, Ashley Cole.

vs

TEAM HARMS
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Team harms

The key words about my team are balance and mutual understanding. You will say that the latter isn’t possible in this draft but I will argue that if the players were nourished by the same philosophy they will understand each other. Here I have a german triangle on the right, direct, technical and fierce; the best what England has to offer in the heart of my defense - the complimentary duo of Sir Bobby Moore and Rio Ferdinand, two of the greatest English centre halves; Bossis - Desailly link which will prove worthy in dealing with Messi and Platini; and, finally, Falcão and Pelé, the adepts of Joga Bonito, one of the easiest routes to goal



My midfield was criticized in the last game as Busquets wasn’t seen as the dominating presence in the key area. With the Desailly upgrade I have probably the best ever physical DM from the defensive point of view. To complete the trio I have the all-rounded Falcão and free-roaming Netzer, who will have a better game than Platini against an oddly balanced duo of Redondo and Sammer.



In my attack, everything is simple. Creative powers of Rensenbrink, Netzer and Falcão are all pointed at Pelé, the greatest player of all time and the greatest goalscorer to boot. On the right we have a reserve option in one of the best European players ever, two times Ballon D’Or winner, Karl-Heinz Rummenigge. He will distract the defenders or run into the space that Pelé’s movement will create.



Key points

Sir Bobby Moore

One of the latest additions to my team - possibly the greatest pure defender to ever play the game. His reading of the game and tackling skills were impecable and he is exactly the kind of a smart defender you would want to face Messi or Platini

Joga's post with gifs



Too many cooks…/Platini dilemma


In the history of redcafe drafts many teams were assembled around Michel Platini. You can’t say that he didn’t deserve it - he clearly is one of the greatest players to ever play the game. But you will see that every successful team will have certain similarities:

  • He is always the main man
  • He is surrounded by runners and grafters to elevate his game to the GOAT level
You can argue that even Van Basten plus Meazza as a «supporting cast» were a little too much but Invictus’ first game was a walk over against an even more unbalanced side.

Redondo trying to dictate the game from the deep; Sammer who will require a free role to go on his rampaging runs; Messi, who will always demand the ball on the right; Platini is left in a crippled role and his direct opponent is no other than The Rock Marcel Desailly - exactly the type on physical enforcer that Platini will struggle to play against



Dealing with Messi

My set-up is almost the same than it was in the last game with a few minor changes. Bossis, who played all over the defensive line in his career will start in a hybrid role of sorts, being the one watching after Messi most of the time. Sure, he was a great tackler and a brilliant reader of the game but here he will have what he’ll need most - the support of his teammates who will be ready to cover for him on every step. Rensenbrink will, like he did with the Netherlands and Cruyff, take one for the team and move to the left midfield position, supporting Bossis in defense. And if Messi will run away from Bossis, he will be running into the trap of death - Sir Bobby Moore, arguably the smartest defender ever will be waiting for him with his impecable positioning and tackling skills and Desailly, the physical beast and an incredibly dominant defensive midfielder/defender will occupy the area of defensive midfielder, leaving Leo with nowhere to go.



Will Sammer play in his best role?

We all know Sammer. One of the few defenders to ever win the Ballon D’Or. The last great libero. But what role will he play in this game? An oddly placed defensive midfielder? This is not the way to treat your best players.
 
Moore in Euro 1968

PASSING
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TACKLING/INTERCEPTIONS/HEADERS
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In the history of redcafe drafts many teams were assembled around Michel Platini. You can’t say that he didn’t deserve it - he clearly is one of the greatest players to ever play the game. But you will see that every successful team will have certain similarities:

  • He is always the main man
  • He is surrounded by runners and grafters to elevate his game to the GOAT level
You can argue that even Van Basten plus Meazza as a «supporting cast» were a little too much but Invictus’ first game was a walk over against an even more unbalanced side.

Redondo trying to dictate the game from the deep; Sammer who will require a free role to go on his rampaging runs; Messi, who will always demand the ball on the right; Platini is left in a crippled role and his direct opponent is no other than The Rock Marcel Desailly - exactly the type on physical enforcer that Platini will struggle to play against
Clichéd narrative as per the norm. 'Too many cooks' what? Platini is the primary playmaker in the team, no one is trying to wrestle him out of that role. Your own Falcão played with Zico, who's quite similar to Platini, and there wasn't enough overlap - and that was aside from another languid playmaker in Sócrates. Redondo is there to bring an element of passing from the deep, how exactly is he trying to over-rule Platini and trying to do things in on way, especially in a manner that will detract from Michel? And we don't want Sammer to go on 'rampaging runs' - just like Beckenbauer didn't go on 'rampaging runs' in the final of the 1966 World Cup. A player as intelligent, accomplished and intuitive as Matthias knows when to force the issue, when to resist, when to stay back, he's not an idiot who will just abandon his assignment, and go on 'rampaging runs'. It's a very simple setup, there's no need to complicate things just to prove a vague point about 'chemistry' or whatever.
Dealing with Messi

My set-up is almost the same than it was in the last game with a few minor changes. Bossis, who played all over the defensive line in his career will start in a hybrid role of sorts, being the one watching after Messi most of the time. Sure, he was a great tackler and a brilliant reader of the game but here he will have what he’ll need most - the support of his teammates who will be ready to cover for him on every step. Rensenbrink will, like he did with the Netherlands and Cruyff, take one for the team and move to the left midfield position, supporting Bossis in defense. And if Messi will run away from Bossis, he will be running into the trap of death - Sir Bobby Moore, arguably the smartest defender ever will be waiting for him with his impecable positioning and tackling skills and Desailly, the physical beast and an incredibly dominant defensive midfielder/defender will occupy the area of defensive midfielder, leaving Leo with nowhere to go.
Sure, Messi is walking into the trap of death. And Desailly is simultaneously making Platini 'struggle' - as you previously claimed, as well as a shackling Leo - like Superman - almost, whereas Sammer the moron is 'bombing forwards'. If you're gonna plan around certain things - atleast recognize the caliber of players you're up against, and the setup we're using instead of cheap tactics predicated on cooks and whatnot. Also, Rensenbrink taking one for the team and Bossis defending deep? There goes your entire left flank, and that's without even accounting for this guy bombing up and down:



I don't even...

Will Sammer play in his best role?

We all know Sammer. One of the few defenders to ever win the Ballon D’Or. The last great libero. But what role will he play in this game? An oddly placed defensive midfielder? This is not the way to treat your best players.
Oh, come off it. Sammer is brilliant where he is. It's not odd at all, and we've clearly defined what his role is, both in the last match, and this one - it's tailor-made for him. If you wanna make a mountain of a mole-hill, and act the pedant then be our guest.
 
Interesting game this. Can't single any weaknesses in either side so this will go down as how well each team will gel and individuals as well.

Harms has the best CB on the pitch in Moore, while I/T have the best full back in Carlos Alberto.

Moore/Ferdinand is excellent partnership I think but so should be Stam/Cannavaro. I prefer the former but don't have any issue with the latter as well.

On the other hand preffer I/T full backs.

Desailly/Falcao/Netzer I think is great partnership in the middle for harms, really like it. Desailly shades it for me in the DM spot compared to Sammer, although from the description I still am not sure of his exact role - I used Der Kaiser in our game as anchor/pivot and also to start our attacks from the back, but his main role was defensive. Here Sammer is in some kind of box to box. Redondo as DLP is great no doubt and probably he'll cover for Sammer in his runs? To be honest I think Redondo having a more free/box to box role will be better with Sammer more defensively oriented to negate Netzer and his offensive game to be a bit restricted.

Up front I think I/T have the better pair of wingers/inside forwards, while Pele just shades it over MvB.

Should be interesting and fairly even game imo all in all.
 
Beautiful setup from Invictus/Theon for Messi, pretty much upgraded what we needed, with the joining LB and Platini for Charlton.
I'm not sure VB is the perfect foil for Messi, but it's really hard to look past a trio of Platini-Messi-Van Basten with the support of Redondo, C.Alberto, Gento and Sammer..
 
One of the absolute legends in the noble art of wing wizardry on the left flank:


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And there was Gento playing alongside and Di Stefano just timed his passes perfectly for him. Gento ran so fast you couldn't get him offside. And I was just sitting there, watching, thinking it was the best thing I had ever seen.
http://www.espnfc.us/club/real-madr...ptain----francisco-gento-the-selfless-skipper

With Rummenigge tucking in, Gento will have a feckton of 1v1 matches against Lahm. But of course, he's bogged down by the omnipresent Desailly too (probably), so not sure Gento will find much joy. Bit of a shame that.
Real Madrid
Individual
 
Very tight this one. Two well crafted teams with no clear weaknesses. There are no areas which scream a mismatch or a decisive surrendering of control.

A few comments on harms:
  • Moore's role is crucial here in covering for the inside-cutting Messi.
  • Bossis is quite a good fit with his right-footedness important in attempting to deal with Messi - as feasible as that really is for anybody.
  • Pele/Rummenigge works well as an upgrade on the wide-goalscoring role that Jairzinho adopted in 1970
  • Sensible move to drop Busquets for Desailly. Platini would have steamrollered Busquets off the ball and has a much harder task on his hands here.
As for invictus/theon:
  • A trio of physical monsters in Stam, Briegel and Cannavaro always impresses.
  • Van Basten's imperiousness in the air could be a cause for concern for a Rio/Bobby partnership.
It's a toughie alright.
 
Brave move playing radamel falcao in midfield.

Not to mention Roger Moore in the heart of his defence. As a captain at that. With the long deceased Archduke of Austria as his sidekick. Begging for trouble, if you ask me.
 
Not to mention Roger Moore in the heart of his defence. As a captain at that. With the long deceased Archduke of Austria as his sidekick. Begging for trouble, if you ask me.
Nah that's Les Ferdinand, harms team is full of goalscorers all over the pitch.
 
Not to mention Roger Moore in the heart of his defence. As a captain at that. With the long deceased Archduke of Austria as his sidekick. Begging for trouble, if you ask me.
Can't help it, he is my favorite Bond
 
Can't help it, he is my favorite Bond

Really? Always thought he was a bit too silly, somehow. At least after a while. He was alright in his first couple of efforts, but the older he got, the sillier he looked.
 
But of course, he's bogged down by the omnipresent Desailly too (probably), so not sure Gento will find much joy. Bit of a shame that.
I don't get why you are so bitter about Desailly. His direct rival here is Sammer, who, by your own admission, is multi-tasking. Desailly, imo, is a better defender than Sammer and I don't see why he can't deal with Platini first and then help out his teammates if Messi, for example, will drop into his zone.

Sammer deserved Ballon D'Or not because of his defending first approach. He deserved it because, being a defender, he was able to hurt the opposition by his rampaging runs, which he doesn't do in this game by your own words. So you have a defender who was known firstly because of his attacking contribution, tells everybody that he is multitasking in defence and then judge me for doing the same with Desailly.

Here's the example of what Desailly was capable in his peak. Definitely not in the same league as a Sammer attacking wise but an absolute beast defensive wise, a GOAT in his limited role
 
Really? Always thought he was a bit too silly, somehow. At least after a while. He was alright in his first couple of efforts, but the older he got, the sillier he looked.
He is, but I love his silliness as opposed to Craig's boring seriousness, for example. And The Spy Who Loved me is my favorite film (Jaws :drool:)
 
I like Desailly in the role far more than Sammer. He's a monster and will be not hesitate to keep pace with Platini as he drops deep or moves up. Very interesting tussle there. Desailly and Rijkaard are probably the only two who can give Platini a fight. I give a slight advantage to harms midfield, far better than my game imho. Very little to separate these teams.
 
I don't think Stam and Cannavaro is the right kind of CB pair to deal with Pele.
This. It is a pairing to deal with a physical striker first and foremost and Pele was much more than that. They are not agile enough
 
Both sides are well crafted. I think Invictus/Theon's front four will work beautifully together Platini and Messi will work in that Messi has never been the main playmaker, more a creative goalscorer; also MVB is hardly a big lump who's movement will allow Platini into goalscoring positions. A slight concern is Redondo as Platini likes to drop deep to start attacks and could well clash with Redondo. On Sammer he can certainly play that role but the question is still, is he better with more license to bomb forward. I'm a big Stam fan but Cannavaro isn't who I'd ideally pair him with.

On Harms team I'm not a fan of Pele as a single striker. Even in 58' I was struck about how much he dropped off and Vava was the main target. Also is Resenbrink all that great in an All-time context? I don't know a huge amount about him but he sticks out. I love the Moore Rio partnership however.

@harms Are you playing mainly in a direct fashion or to control most of the possession?
 
Also is Resenbrink all that great in an All-time context
A member of 2 consecutive World Cup teams of the tournament and arguably Netherlands main star in 1978.

Jan Mulder says: "Robbie Rensenbrink was as good as Cruijff, only in his mind was he not."

First Onze d'Or winner and Ballon d'Or runner-up.

Certainly an all-time material. Not a final worthy, but I prefer him to Gento, for example, he is a much more versatile and exciting player
 
Clichéd narrative as per the norm. 'Too many cooks' what? Platini is the primary playmaker in the team, no one is trying to wrestle him out of that role. Your own Falcão played with Zico, who's quite similar to Platini, and there wasn't enough overlap - and that was aside from another languid playmaker in Sócrates. Redondo is there to bring an element of passing from the deep, how exactly is he trying to over-rule Platini and trying to do things in on way, especially in a manner that will detract from Michel? And we don't want Sammer to go on 'rampaging runs' - just like Beckenbauer didn't go on 'rampaging runs' in the final of the 1966 World Cup. A player as intelligent, accomplished and intuitive as Matthias knows when to force the issue, when to resist, when to stay back, he's not an idiot who will just abandon his assignment, and go on 'rampaging runs'. It's a very simple setup, there's no need to complicate things just to prove a vague point about 'chemistry' or whatever.

Sure, Messi is walking into the trap of death. And Desailly is simultaneously making Platini 'struggle' - as you previously claimed, as well as a shackling Leo - like Superman - almost, whereas Sammer the moron is 'bombing forwards'. If you're gonna plan around certain things - atleast recognize the caliber of players you're up against, and the setup we're using instead of cheap tactics predicated on cooks and whatnot. Also, Rensenbrink taking one for the team and Bossis defending deep? There goes your entire left flank, and that's without even accounting for this guy bombing up and down:



I don't even...


Oh, come off it. Sammer is brilliant where he is. It's not odd at all, and we've clearly defined what his role is, both in the last match, and this one - it's tailor-made for him. If you wanna make a mountain of a mole-hill, and act the pedant then be our guest.



Now I remember why I don't take part in these anymore, people turn into right dickheads when competing.
 
Also is Resenbrink all that great in an All-time context? I don't know a huge amount about him but he sticks out.
I think he's really underrated. He was a sensational player. Of course he's one of the weaker players on the pitch, but he doesn't look more out of place to me than the likes of Briegel, Bossis or Stam.
 
GG.
 
@harms Are you playing mainly in a direct fashion or to control most of the possession?
Less possession than in the first round, without Busquets. A direct style, certainly, all my attack and midfield is very direct.
 
Your own Falcão played with Zico, who's quite similar to Platini, and there wasn't enough overlap - and that was aside from another languid playmaker in Sócrates
A bad example - there is a reason why there were so little successful teams with "many cooks", it demands an unreal level of understanding between them, a chemistry, if you may. I know it's Theon's fetish though. I don't see a chemistry between Redondo, Sammer, Platini and Messi and I'm speaking frankly here. I see a clusterfeck, even if Messi and Platini are outstanding individuals and are 2nd and 3rd best players on the pitch
 
Both sides are well crafted. I think Invictus/Theon's front four will work beautifully together Platini and Messi will work in that Messi has never been the main playmaker, more a creative goalscorer; also MVB is hardly a big lump who's movement will allow Platini into goalscoring positions. A slight concern is Redondo as Platini likes to drop deep to start attacks and could well clash with Redondo. On Sammer he can certainly play that role but the question is still, is he better with more license to bomb forward. I'm a big Stam fan but Cannavaro isn't who I'd ideally pair him with.

On Harms team I'm not a fan of Pele as a single striker. Even in 58' I was struck about how much he dropped off and Vava was the main target. Also is Resenbrink all that great in an All-time context? I don't know a huge amount about him but he sticks out. I love the Moore Rio partnership however.

@harms Are you playing mainly in a direct fashion or to control most of the possession?

He's not out of place here at all IMO. I watched alot of him as I picked him in a previous draft and he was a superb all-around forward. Fast, brilliant dribbler, creative and a very good goalscorer. From what I seen he played centrally alot for Anderlecht as well, so I have no issue with Pele as the single centre forward as Rensenbrink and Rummenigge will naturally fill the space Pele vacates by dropping deep. It's a really well crafted front three IMO, and the main reason I was so pissed off that we drew harms in the first round :lol:.

I agree on the rest. I don't really see a potential clash between Messi and Platini at all, but there's a few more question marks about how the rest of the midfield unit will operate.
 
I don't really see a potential clash between Messi and Platini at all, but there's a few more question marks about how the rest of the midfield unit will operate.

It's not an obvious and disturbing clash, no. There's a point in there somewhere, though. Platini is similar to Maradona for me in this sense: He needs to control the operation, run the shop, be the main man. While Messi doesn't have to be the main playmaker, and doesn't need to hog the ball all the time, he nevertheless thrives on being the true focal point of the team. And that's what Platini does too. That's where the potential problem lies, in terms of balance.

Then again, this sort of argument is nigh-absurd given the premise here. You can't downgrade whatever is the de facto supporting cast just because Platini – or Messi – has to stand out as the main man. It's an unlimited, all-time draft. Some slack must be cut. Besides, Messi is very much used to operating in a system where he often didn't do much string pulling at all, but focused on finishing attacks rather than starting them – which is what I suspect he'd do here too, whilst leaving the bulk of the orchestrating to Platini.

But, yeah – the overall balance. I dunno. Something off there, I think, if we're being super critical (which we have to be, I suppose).
 
A bad example - there is a reason why there were so little successful teams with "many cooks", it demands an unreal level of understanding between them, a chemistry, if you may. I know it's Theon's fetish though. I don't see a chemistry between Redondo, Sammer, Platini and Messi and I'm speaking frankly here. I see a clusterfeck, even if Messi and Platini are outstanding individuals and are 2nd and 3rd best players on the pitch

Well for a start I would say that Messi is at worst the joint-best player on the pitch. People can argue on an exact ranking but I think it's clear at this stage that Messi, Maradona and Pele are in a league of their own - And Messi quite clearly was not a 'worse' footballer than Pele.

In reality of you started a thread now on the Caf to ask who the greatest player ever is between the three, I would wager the results would be something like Pele 20%, Maradona 40% Messi 40% - Might be quite an interesting thread actually.

On the too many cooks part its another very strange and over the top criticism, which we're used to. Quite genuinely I think it's mental you've brought it up considering you have Falcao / Netzer and Pele in your side - IMO you're open to a much clearer accusation of too many cooks than our team.

I'm not sure what type of player you think Pele was or what you think his strengths were, but in reality you want Pele on the ball as much as possible and not playing up top as a lone striker. The ball should be played through Pele as much as possible and he should be the main 'cook' in your team - the way that Platini is in ours. I can't see anyway Pele is getting this responsibility given you've squeezed two prominent ball players in Netzer and Falcao into your line up.

With our team I don't see anythink like the same issues - Platini is by a distance the teams main playmaker. Which is absolutely fine with Messi, who has smashed records playing with Xavi and Iniesta throughout his career. He's never needed or even wanted to have that role.
 
Messi is very much used to operating in a system where he often didn't do much string pulling at all, but focused on finishing attacks rather than starting them – which is what I suspect he'd do here too, whilst leaving the bulk of the orchestrating to Platini.

That's exactly what he's doing.

I think of all the top players - Cruyff, Platini, Maradona - Messi has arguably proved more than anyone that he doesnt need to pull the strings in possession. That just has never been his role, and as you say he finished moves rather than started them. And Xavi is IMO the most dominant ball player that's ever played the game - More so than Platini. Plus that Barcelona side also had Iniesta constantly looking for the ball.

I don't see it as a valid criticism of Messi at all - He's shown throughout his career that he can cede possession to someone like Platini in midfield.
 
I'm not sure what type of player you think Pele was or what you think his strengths were, but in reality you want Pele on the ball as much as possible and not playing up top as a lone striker. The ball should be played through Pele as much as possible and he should be the main 'cook' in your team - the way that Platini is in ours. I can't see anyway Pele is getting this responsibility given you've squeezed two prominent ball players in Netzer and Falcao into your line up.

This I don't quite get.

The roles of Falcao and Netzer seem very clear to me, and they're in no danger of getting in each other's way: Netzer is the main orchestrator, as always. Pelé doesn't actually play as a lone striker, as I understand it: He's actually playing something similar to his customary second striker-ish role, with Rensenbrink and Rummenigge cutting in and interchanging. Both are excellently suited to that sort of game, so I don't see any problems with that.

I was largely on board with the Zico criticism the other day - him being used in an "unproven" and experimental role. But Pelé's role here is nothing like that. I see no reason whatsover why he shouldn't do extremely well as a false nine of sorts, and influence the match in much the manner you'd expect from him.
 
This I don't quite get.

The roles of Falcao and Netzer seem very clear to me, and they're in no danger of getting in each other's way: Netzer is the main orchestrator, as always. Pelé doesn't actually play as a lone striker, as I understand it: He's actually playing something similar to his customary second striker-ish role, with Rensenbrink and Rummenigge cutting in and interchanging. Both are excellently suited to that sort of game, so I don't see any problems with that.

I was largely on board with the Zico criticism the other day - him being used in an "unproven" and experimental role. But Pelé's role here is nothing like that. I see no reason whatsover why he shouldn't do extremely well as a false nine of sorts, and influence the match in much the manner you'd expect from him.

It's fine if Netzer is the main orchestrator - Likewise Platini is the main orchestrator, as always. I don't have an issue with Platini and Netzer taking on those roles.

What I do have an issue with is when we start discussing other players. Falcao was just as much a ball player as Redondo - possibly more so. And then Pele was much more of a ball player than Messi.

So I'm not seeing how harm's 'too many cooks' argument is holding up at all. As I said in that post, IMO he's more vulnerable to the critique. For our team - Platini is the playmaker, quite clearly. Messi has proven throughout his career that he is perfectly capable of ceding that responsibility.

I'm fine with Pele as a false 9 although that isnt how I would use him. If it were me I would use him as a #10 and get him on the ball as much as possible. But either way it's fine, not too fussed about it. The point was more that IMO Pele ceding possession to Netzer / Falcao is more of an issue than Messi ceding possession to Platini due to their respective styles, so I thought the critique from harms was strange.
 
Falcao was just as much a ball player as Redondo - possibly more so
Falcao, instead of any other "cooks" on the pitch is proved, like your manager said, in a secondary playmaking role for Brazil. He played with Zico and Socrates and was one of if not the best player in that 1982 side
 
Don't see the point in arguing anymore. It's not like I can overcome 8 votes deficit. Your Ballon D'Or picture won the game for you :lol:

With nothing to play for but for the saving face I'll make a tactical change @Aldo

boom-formation-tactics.png


Streltsov, the white Pelé and the most talented Soviet player ever steps on the pitch.
 
Falcao, instead of any other "cooks" on the pitch is proved, like your manager said, in a secondary playmaking role for Brazil. He played with Zico and Socrates and was one of if not the best player in that 1982 side

I know who Falcao's teammates were harms.

Messi's teammates were Xavi and Iniesta for what it's worth - Yet you've claimed that his role will overlap with Platini's (which it quite clearly won't).