Billy No Mates Draft QF: Aldo vs Joga Bonito/Gio

[Invictus]

Aldo...........................................................................Joga Bonito/ Gio

VS

Team Aldo
​

Brief Tactical Description
The team is playing a 4-3-3 formation. The defensive line is deeper than average, the team will look to maintain shape at the back, and quick transitions from back to front through the middle till the final third where we release our wide players to supply the centre forward with the midfielders breaking through the middle.

The legendary Uruguayan keeper Mazurkiewicz takes guard of the ball, a man made for big occasions with a penchant for match winning saves. The central defensive duo consists of the German legend Willi Schulz, and the Juventus legend John Charles. Schulz would be assuming the role of a ball playing defender, a standout sweeper for his nation circa World Cup 1966 where he was rated as one of the best defenders in the team, his completeness in physicality, inch perfect tackling, unforgiving marking and class on the ball will be vital to our backline, alongside he has the mythical John Charles, rated as the greatest foreign player in the history of the club, Charles was exemplary as a centre forward and as a centre half, with an imposing frame he'll be instructed to mind the harder side of the game.

Flanking them are two of Serie A's greatest sons - Antonio Cabrini and Javier Zanetti. Two of the first names that come to mind when thinking of tireless, dynamic and consistent fullbacks who made telling difference going forward while being equally responsible at the back. Two great engines on either side - and let's not repeat the fact that both will never bomb forward together - who will be responsible of providing width when necessary, joining the midfield in the buildup when necessary (Pupi) and most importantly - defending with the rest of the unit.

Anchoring the midfield is the Dutch midfield general Frank Rijkaard, with the Spanish metronome Xavi and the German playmaker Bernd Schuster. Rijkaard comes into the team and completes an impeccable midfield unit contributing defensively and shielding the defense like few others while combining effortlessly with the rest to bring the ball forward. Xavi will be dictating the tempo of the game, connecting everyone around him and being adventurous with the ball with less caution that he's generally used to. There's no one better in getting the ball forward in a measured almost risk free fashion, involving those around him in the buildup, speaking of which, he'll be combining with the more attack minded midfielder Schuster who will be as involved in the buildup as he will be in the final third linking up with the front three and supporting the attack with late runs into the box or powerful shots from outside.

In attack, is the goal machine Cristiano Ronaldo, the greatest dribbler ever in Garrincha and the lethal number nine Romario. Garrincha on the right flank will do what he does, no instructions necessary, taking on his man time and again and more often than not getting past. In Romario, we have someone with pin point accuracy and composure in front of goal and a tremendous amount of skill to go with it. With the service behind him he'll be unstoppable, no question. And Ronaldo will man the left channel of the pitch, cutting inside and shooting onto his favoured right foot, and probing across the frontline for any gaps to be exploited with his unmarkable off the ball movement. Like @Balu once said, if you cannot stop the service to him, it's very difficult to stop him scoring and with our midfield and with Garrincha stretching the play on the right, he'll have a great target to aim at the far post.

Opposition Instructions
- In Rijkaard, Xavi and Schuster, we have a tremendously all round midfield with the capability to defend in numbers and then break quickly through the middle using pass and move to waltz past players and release the wide players. Our quick technical game would ensure the opposition to increase their pressing and tire them out soon in the game. We hold a technical advantage in midfield in terms of creativity and balance which we will use to full effect. Rijkaard will be keeping tabs on Maradona, and there are few better to match the Argentine in terms of reading of the game, physical aspects and technical side of the game. It's not a man marking! We are not wasting Frank on one player, no matter who it is, but with him and support with Xavi and Schuster they'll keep a close eye on him.

- Lack of defensive width - Facchetti will be tasked for providing width on the left with Stoichkov or either no one on the right and that puts of a lot of pressure on the fullbacks against my wide players. Garrincha is unstoppable singlehandedly, while Cristiano's movement requires help from wingers, which is pretty much not existing here and 1v1 both my wide players will enjoy playing in this game.

- Five players in my team who will be massively influential in this game from a tactical point of view - Zanetti, Cabrini, Xavi, Schuster and Rijkaard. Reason being, these are five immensely multitalented and versatile players, tactically and they can control the game depending on the situation. If leading, Schuster will be asked to drop in midfield, keep the ball and force an error with the array of unpredictable passes they will come up with, all while not letting go of the control of the game. While trailing, they will be instructed to be more adventurous with their dribbling, passing and shooting.

- The opposition lacks any genuine wide threat, which leads to both Zanetti and Cabrini having a lot of room in this game and play their natural game without any constant pressure. As discussed previously, both in their element can prove extremely influential to the game and would be bombing up and down the flanks tirelessly.

- Garrincha against Facchetti. Sure to be a great battle between possibly the greatest right winger and left-back of all time. However, 1v1, Garrincha cannot be stopped, period. As great as Facchetti is, there's no chance that he can win the ball every single time he's up against Garrincha and he will have to constantly be on recovery mode, either by covering left space of running back after getting beaten and that source of service specially with Cristiano and Romario waiting in the middle will bring goals.

- As discussed earlier, the midfield is well capable of keeping the ball and will do it to slow down the tempo when needed, though the general plan doesn't resemble anything close to tiki taka, rather a quick yet fluent transition using short passing and frequent runs by both the central midfielders and the fullbacks. All the players involved rank high in strength and stamina and can carry this out all day. While we are also well capable of finding Garrincha with a long punt from deep or Cristiano with a delightful through ball from Xavi or Schuster, we'll bring the ball forward without letting Tardelli or Breitner cut out an early rash pass, and when the time is right we'll be finding the feet of Garrincha or Romario with them facing their marker. All three attackers are encouraged to dribble and attack the ball swiftly, without worrying about losing the ball.

Should be a tight match up, good luck @Joga Bonito and @Balu . And credit to Joga for the Schuster write up.

 

[Invictus]

Team Joga Bonito/ Gio​

The team retains its shape and core with new additions of the 'Galloping Major' Puskas and Giacinto Facchetti slotting in seamlessly. The tactics remain largely unchanged with an emphasis on a sturdy base, a complete engine room and a flamboyant offense

THE BACK LINE

The 'Iron Curtain' Dasayev makes for an imposing last line of defense, with his insane shot-stopping and his astute distribution. IL Capitano Facchetti takes custody of the left flank - arguably the greatest wing-back of all time, alongside N.Santos. Not many could strike fear into the hearts of the opposing full-back and instil dread in the opposing winger simultaneously, like the Italian did. The greatest Dutch defender ever, Krol, brings a measure of class and composure to the centre of the field. Not much needs to be said about the defensive cornerstone of the 1970s Ajax/Dutch vintage but it is pivotal to note that Krol is tailor made for this LCB role and he excelled both as a FB and as CB - leading Netherlands to the WC Final as their best player, establishing himself in the elite batch of CBs who finished top 3 in the ballon d'Or and of course winning Serie A POTY in an absurdly stingy Serie A.

One of the finest stoppers to ever set foot on the pitch, Thuram was quite simply a rock at the back. Just like Krol, he is a match made in heaven for the RCB role, excelling both as a FB and as a CB. 'The Lion' Gerets was a talismanic figure for both club and country, captaining the Belgian 'Golden Generation' to a best ever top 4 finish in the WC and PSV to the European Cup. His tireless running and dogged defending makes him a force to be reckoned with on the right flank.


ENGINE ROOM

Luis Monti plays his pioneering central mediano (halfway house role). A true giant of the game Monti led Argentina to a Copa America triumph and a Olympics (considered as the precursor to the WC) and a WC final, in addition to being the backbone of the Italian 1934 WC and CEIC (EUROS) winning vintage. Monti's ability to influence both midfield and defense in his custom role, is a god-send for our set-up. The greatest defensive/B2B Italian midfielder, Tardelli was capable of motoring on for the entire game, hassling, harrying and putting out fires in the middle, in addition to being a potent threat on the ball. Midfield general Breitner would play his all-conquering midfield role, contributing significantly to defense with his destroying abilities and on the ball with his incisive passing, ball-carrying and brilliant goalscoring threat.


OFFENSE

At the helm of it all, is one Diego Armando Maradona. Well, what can be said about him that hasn't been already? He simply has all the freedom in the world here and he can do whatever the feck he wants really. At his peak Stoichkov was the perfect blend of flair and ruthlessness. He was just as likely to create something out of that lovely left peg of his as he was to pounce on a minor defensive error in brutal fashion. He was as complete an attacker as it could get - physically, technically and most importantly, mentally. As if facing two prodigiously talented left footers wasn't enough, throw in one hammer of a left foot in Puskas and you've got quite the ensemble. Puskas quite simply the star of several great teams over his career - right from Budapest Honved, 'The Mighty Magyars' to the all-conquering Real side where he was only behind di Stefano. He bagged the CEIC (Euros), the Golden Ball in the 1954 WC, 3 European Cups and 10 league titles. For all his match-winning talents, the man could score goals, truckloads of 'em in fact. Puskas scored a whopping 682 goals in 700 matches - winning 4 pichichis, 4 top scorer awards in the Hungarian league, 2 European Cup top scorer awards and scoring a remarkable 7 goals in 2 European Cup finals.



Other points

- Aldo has 2 imposing flanks, no doubt but I believe our set-up is capable of neutralising that threat fairly well. Monti's role cannot be stressed enough here. His role as the central mediano (read more about his role) provides much needed balance for our set-up to flourish, and his ability to influence play in defense and midfield is absolutely pivotal. His prospensity in seamlessly dropping back, means that both Krol and Thuram can defend the channels perfectly, esp the latter who'd frequently be squaring up against inside left Ronaldo. Gerets would primarily keep an eye on Cabrini's forays forward and Facchetti would look to deal with Garrincha's trickery.

Likewise, Breitner and Tardelli were truly brilliant at covering the flanks, both defensively and offensively. Although it won't be one of their primary duties, it's good to know that they can help out if and when the situation arises. The side also boasts the perfect wing-forward in Stoichkov who can capitalise on any space left forward by the wing-backs, with his uncanny ability at finding space.

- Ultimately, we do believe we have just about enough solidity at the back and firepower up front to eek out an edge in this tight encounter, esp with Aldo's CB duo who might find it a wee bit tough against Puskas. Good luck Aldo.

 

[Invictus]

@Aldo
@Joga Bonito
@Gio

 

[Balu]

Should be a tight match up, good luck @Joga Bonito and @Balu .

Thanks @Aldo . Could have used it yesterday though, when you voted against me in my quarterfinal

 

[Joga Bonito]

Good luck Aldo

The opposition lacks any genuine wide threat, which leads to both Zanetti and Cabrini having a lot of room in this game and play their natural game without any constant pressure. As discussed previously, both in their element can prove extremely influential to the game and would be bombing up and down the flanks tirelessly.

Firstly, I'd say Garrincha is the last player I'd use for a wing back like Zanetti bombing forward. Garrincha was one of the most individualistic players on the ball and there was a reason why he almost 'repelled' players on the ball for Brazil. Djalma Santos barely crossed the half line despite reportedly being a fine attacking full back for his club sides, Didi stayed fairly central and Pele dropped to the left. No one really bothered linking up, offered decoy runs with him etc because Garrincha loved taking on players single handedly and almost without any support. He was slightly wasteful but he was totally worth it imo. I wouldn't say Facchetti would shut him down but rather that it would be an even battle. The greatest wing back (alongside N.Santos) against the greatest wing-forward (alongside Best) which would be a great battle where I expect it to be fairly even. Anyway, Zanetti's runs forward here would be a bit of waste imo, he would be better served playing as a more balanced defensive FB with Garrincha on his flank.

On the right Stoichkov's support and threat off the ball is more than enough to balance out Cabrini's runs.

Besides I'd argue Facchetti and Gerets have greater support in Krol and Thuram as the LCB & RCB (amongst the best in these roles) as opposed to Cabrini and Zanetti who have Ronaldo and Garrincha who'd do just about zilch tracking back. I'd seriously question the efficiency of Zanetti's forays forward and the space left in behind Cabrini when he goes foreard with Ronaldo on his flank. He was a balanced FB but he might have to curtail his game a wee bit with Stoichkov lurking about off the ball, and The Dagger was obviously no shrinking violet who was capable of putting a decent shift in defensively.

 

[Raees]

Holy shit.. those two sides are orgasmic. Aldo to nick it for me.. but could go either way. Brilliant teams.

 

[Gio]

While respecting the sheer quality of Aldo's front three, I am not convinced how well that trio would gel as a unit. Each of the three were hugely individualistic and relied on foils to service and get the best out of them. At United, Cristiano had Rooney and Tevez sacrificing their own attacking input to maximise the Portuguese's. While in Madrid, Benzema is an obvious back-to-goal foil whose primary job is to feed and support Ronaldo and Bale. The same applied with Romario who had the selfless Laudrup or the hard-working Stoichkov for Barcelona, or the channel-running, fetching and foraging Bebeto for Brazil. He always wanted someone in close proximity to feed him and do the legwork. And Garrincha is even more of an individual than the other two and whose free-spirited play often required a more tactically disciplined presence on the opposing flank in Mario Zagallo. Individually it's a sensational front three. But collectively I don't think it works to the point where they'll maximise one another's qualities.

All the best to @Aldo - and in saying the above I'd also note that your midfield unit is a good support to that front three, Schuster especially, so kudos for that.

 

[Moby]

While respecting the sheer quality of Aldo's front three, I am not convinced how well that trio would gel as a unit. Each of the three were hugely individualistic and relied on foils to service and get the best out of them. At United, Cristiano had Rooney and Tevez sacrificing their own attacking input to maximise the Portuguese's. While in Madrid, Benzema is an obvious back-to-goal foil whose primary job is to feed and support Ronaldo and Bale. The same applied with Romario who had the selfless Laudrup or the hard-working Stoichkov for Barcelona, or the channel-running, fetching and foraging Bebeto for Brazil. He always wanted someone in close proximity to feed him and do the legwork. And Garrincha is even more of an individual than the other two and whose free-spirited play often required a more tactically disciplined presence on the opposing flank in Mario Zagallo. Individually it's a sensational front three. But collectively I don't think it works to the point where they'll maximise one another's qualities.

All the best to @Aldo - and in saying the above I'd also note that your midfield unit is a good support to that front three, Schuster especially, so kudos for that.

Thanks.

I agree they are individualistic, but in very different senses. At Madrid, when Cristiano has been at his goal scoring best, he is not someone who has taken a lot of time on the ball. Sure, he has to be the focal point of attack which he is here, but that is largely off the ball in terms of making runs or a quick give and go, which largely resembles his playing style at Madrid. Whereas Garrincha can enjoy as much time as he wants on the ball and there's no one else in the team who demands the ball for as much time as he does, so it all falls nicely for him to constantly run at defenders while the likes of Cristiano and Romario make unstoppable runs into the box. Garrincha's delivery as well as low crosses would be deadly. In the air he has Cristiano towering above the rest to aim at while in the middle there is Romario who can take the ball away with a deadly first touch inside the box and finish. It both suits their game, as well as the midfield's who will be happy in continuously controlling the game and ensuring Garrincha always gets the ball to weave his magic.

 

[VivaJanuzaj]

My initial reaction when looking at both team's attacking unit:

 

[Chesterlestreet]

While respecting the sheer quality of Aldo's front three, I am not convinced how well that trio would gel as a unit. Each of the three were hugely individualistic and relied on foils to service and get the best out of them. At United, Cristiano had Rooney and Tevez sacrificing their own attacking input to maximise the Portuguese's. While in Madrid, Benzema is an obvious back-to-goal foil whose primary job is to feed and support Ronaldo and Bale. The same applied with Romario who had the selfless Laudrup or the hard-working Stoichkov for Barcelona, or the channel-running, fetching and foraging Bebeto for Brazil. He always wanted someone in close proximity to feed him and do the legwork. And Garrincha is even more of an individual than the other two and whose free-spirited play often required a more tactically disciplined presence on the opposing flank in Mario Zagallo. Individually it's a sensational front three. But collectively I don't think it works to the point where they'll maximise one another's qualities.

A possible counter point to this might be to claim that you don't necessarily need any of those three to be the proper glue of the team: Xavi is that – or Schuster, or both of them. And those two would handle the actual playmaking too (well, they'd have to) beyond what Garrincha will offer in the shape of creating opportunities in a more chaotic and unpredictable fashion.

But I largely agree with your analysis. For me, Rivelino was a better fit: Less direct, much more of a creator, more of a general team player, an actual bridge between midfield and attack, etc.

With Ronaldo there, what you gain in sheer attacking force, you lose in the balance of the thing.

Just my opinion, of course. I really liked Aldo's team, the balance was just right for me, from the midfield trio and up. His upgrades are hit and miss for me, though.

 

[Joga Bonito]

I know not much needs to be said about one el Pibe but I will just utter something lest he go under the radar, given the fantastic array of talent we have on show from both teams here.

Not many, if any, possessed that magical elemental mastery of the ball that Maradona did. Arguably the greatest player of all time, he has an excellent foundation supporting him here and of course two perfect forwards to dovetail with. Stoichkov's directness and penetration in addition to Puskas's magical left wand/hammer, goalscoring prowess and technical ability complementing him perfectly. All three were capable of conjuring up something themselves or laying something on the plate for others with their creativity and ability to make space for others by pulling opposition players out of position or by keeping them occupied. No one was better at this than one Diego Armando Maradona.

He was dangerous, he used to score against us often. We had to be very well organised; put pressure on him, doubling up, tripling up even to limit his talents. Because if it was one-on-one, you’d lose.

Spoiler: Maradona Compilation

I'm sure this footage might be intriguing given the context of the match

If I have to pick one, it'd be Maradona; when he was on form, there was almost no way of stopping him.

Maradona destroyed all my theories about football. We could dominate playing great football as a team, but then he needed just one touch to completely change the game.

Anyway, we are talking about a guy whose WC peak performances is unmatched, almost single-handedly dragging Argentina through to a WC trophy with 5 goals & 5 assists, and of course someone who was Napoli's top scorer of all time - 81 goals in 188 games - in the ridiculously strong Italian Serie A, where he had to come up against the likes of Rijkaard, Scirea, Baresi, Passarella, Matthäus, Bergomi, Brehme, Maldini etc (that's probably 5 of the top 10 defenders of all time there, in addition to arguably the greatest B2B and defensive B2B midfielder of all time ) and even finished as a top scorer once in Serie A. His impact on Napoli was undeniable when Serie A was dominated by some fantastic teams and individuals - probably the most competitive and at the highest peak in terms of sheer quality in the history of club football (the 90s Serie A does give it a close run though).

A great quote by Balu

What was unique about Maradona is that he turned Napoli into a team that consistently went toe to toe with the biggest clubs. Napoli finished 3rd, 1st, 2nd, 2nd, 1st from 85 to 90. That's incredible and shows Maradona's influence far better than just saying he won a league title with a midtable club. Napoli won the league in 89/90 against the European Cup winner that season (Milan), the cup winners' cup winner (Sampdoria) and both UEFA cup finalists (Juventus & Fiorentina). That's how strong the league was back then. The following year, his drug addiction became public and he left midway through the season. Napoli finished 8th.

Napoli had some excellent players too, but no one could have possibly elevated them like Maradona did though.

Krol was another idol of the Neapolitans and very few in the game had that air of assuredness and class that Ruud Krol possessed. Krol was Holland's best player in the 1978 WC and marshalled them to a final where they were unfortunate to lose to the home team; he is one of the very few CBS who came top 3 in the ballon d'Or and also won the Serie A Footballer of the Year in the ridiculously tough Serie A for good measure. It's just a real shame that he wasn't exactly part of a great side in that role and thus is perhaps not given the same dues he is given for as a LB.

In terms of the match up here, he is perfectly poised to have a great match with his impeccable reading of the game, pace, agility, speed on the turn/over the first few yards, ability to organise a sturdy defensive unit and of course his classy range of passing from the back.

 

[Theon]

Aldo's midfield looks fantastic - particularly Rijkaard with Xavi, it's really a set up to make Xavi shine. He's too recent a player and too fresh in the memory for Xavi to get the full credit he deserves in an all time context, but given the correct set up (which he has here) he's right up there with the likes of Matthaus as the best in the draft.

I don't agree fully with Gio's critique of that front three but I can see what he was getting at with Romario - though that's probably just me not imagining how it would work, as on paper it's excellent.

I was a little bit surprised that Joga chose Puskas as I don't think it's the best fit for Maradona without some other alterations to the team. I had the same quandry with NM when we had Puskas and Platini - it didn't feel quite right then either. Ideally you would stick a pure #9 ahead of those two if you wanted to partner them IMO - Puskas regularly dropped deeper so you would want that spearhead up top creating space and offering that constant threat in behind. In my opinion anyway.

 

[Gio]

A quick word on Ferenc Puskas. He spent the bulk of his career as a centre-forward-cum-left-sided-second-striker. And certainly at Real he was the go-to man for the goals (4 Pichichis) and dovetailed stunningly with Alfredo Di Stefano. Here is a player who:

• Scored 700 goals in 705 games
• Netted 84 goals in 85 international games for Hungary
• Fired in 7 goals in 2 European Cup Finals

And is ranked as:

• L'Equipe's European Player of the 20th Century
• World Soccer Magazine's 7th Greatest Player of All Time

Would have racked up the Ballon D'Ors had such an award existed in the late 1940s and early 1950s. As David Lacey said when placing the Galloping Major 4th in his all-time ranking, he was regarded as the greatest player of the post-war era and was massively influential in the modernisation of the British game. I've always loved this description of his roasting of the top British centre-half of the time in Billy Wright:

With Hungary leading 2-1, a cross from the left found him at the back post. He took the ball down and it seemed that he had to hit it with his right foot. Billy Wright, England's captain, went flying in to make a challenge, "rushing," as Geoffrey Green put it in the Times, "like a fire-engine going to the wrong fire". Puskas, slipped the ball back with the sole of his left foot, leaving Wright sprawling and, with barely any backlift, thrashed his finish past Gil Merrick. The Hungarian radio commentator Gyorgy Szepesi remembers walking on to the pitch after the game and examining the spot. "They should have laid down a plaque," he said.

In amongst the sea of quality across the park, as close as you'll get to a mismatch is the capacity of Aldo's central defence to deal with Ferenc Puskas. As defenders I think Charles is a little over-rated and Schulz is a little under-rated. But against such rarefied opposition they might struggle.

 

[Enigma_87]

Excellent game this, although the focus has been off tonight with a lot of United fans either trying to locate and terminate LvG or looking for planes for rent.

Anyway, looking at the score - dead even.

Now looking at the teams and formation I'd say that Joga/Gio have put up a team that is very good crafted and drafted and IMO balances out nicely. Facchetti as a wingback on the left with Krol covering who is also natural on the left side fits nicely. Stoichkov switched on the right and coming inside and also for Gerets to have support on the right also seems balanced, despite of the not conventional LW/RW and 2 full backs behind them.

Then in midfield they have Monti covering if Krol is out of position or generally break up play and Tardelli who is also brilliant DM on his day. Then Breitner in probably box to box role with Maradona and Puskas up front.

For Aldo's team - Xavi/Rijkaard/Schuster - brilliant midfield with all three nicely fitting in their roles. Cabrini/Ronaldo and Garrincha/Zanetti - excellent wide options, then of course Romario leading the line.

Now the key points I see in this matchup are:

for Aldo:
- Charles as CB - I really, really, really don't buy it. For me he's a striker that could play at the back due to his physique. Juve fans credit him being a legend but all that I've seen put him on top, not on CB.
- Zanetti/Garrincha on the right - I too feel there can be issues with both working together. I don't feel Zanetti to be the type of player that would match well with Garrincha. Zanetti can be left exposed and while Rijkaard tries to cover that can leave space for Maradona in the center.
- I can see Ronaldo/Garrincha being a bit of ball hogs in front and with Romario and a deeper defensive line I can see a free space that would open in Aldo's midfield/attack so someone has to drop back to receive the ball and release it quickly on the counter.
- I think Aldo's side will see a bit less of the ball due to Gio/JB having a bit more hard working players and probably getting the ball back quicker.

For JB/Gio
- Breitner has to give a match winning performance here. With Monti and Tardelli he'll be the main creative player from deep and tasked to also carry the ball out and find either Maradona or Stoichkov/Puskas. If Aldo's side swarm the center and double up Maradona more of the time I can see the side struggling for creativity in midfield at some point of the game.
- Fachetti on it's own on the left. He has a huge role as well. With Garrincha/Zanetti he'll need support(Tardelli probably?) and I can see him providing a bit less attacking options due to having to deal with both of Aldo's flank defensively. In that formation I'd have someone like Seedorf or Bobby Charlton - with a great work rate but also more attacking options than Tardelli.

All in all no clear weaknesses from both teams and some really heavy attacks, question of who will score more methinks.

 

[Gio]

For JB/Gio
- Breitner has to give a match winning performance here. With Monti and Tardelli he'll be the main creative player from deep and tasked to also carry the ball out and find either Maradona or Stoichkov/Puskas. If Aldo's side swarm the center and double up Maradona more of the time I can see the side struggling for creativity in midfield at some point of the game.

Solid analysis @Enigma_87. What I'd add to this point is that Maradona spent his best years for Napoli and Argentina leading hard-working midfields, sporting the likes of Sergio Batista, Fernando De Napoli, Hector Enrique. So here he has the best of that breed. And in Paul Breitner a midfield general who excelled in those transitions and has the big-game bollocks (2 goals in 2 World Cup Finals) to grab the game by the scruff of the neck.

 

[Joga Bonito]

I was a little bit surprised that Joga chose Puskas as I don't think it's the best fit for Maradona without some other alterations to the team. I had the same quandry with NM when we had Puskas and Platini - it didn't feel quite right then either. Ideally you would stick a pure #9 ahead of those two if you wanted to partner them IMO - Puskas regularly dropped deeper so you would want that spearhead up top creating space and offering that constant threat in behind. In my opinion anyway.

Just to echo Gio's points.

I would say that's a fair criticism Theon, but I'd disagree with that point that they both needed a proper #9 to play behind. As Gio stated above, Puskas has excelled playing in front of a mobile #10 in di Stefano, linking up brilliantly with him. It was clear who the main man was, although Puskas was still given the right amount of freedom and was Real's best player after di Stefano.

Here's his great performance up top playing against Benfica in the European Cup Final.





Also, let's not forget the man just simply loved scoring goals and was ruthless in front of the net - a whopping 682 goals in 700 matches - winning 4 pichichis, 4 top scorer awards in the Hungarian league, 2 European Cup top scorer awards and a remarkable 7 goals in 2 European Cup finals are testament to it.

The difference in approach was perhaps best summed up by Nélson Rodrigues, who often wrote brief dramatic scenes featuring real-life personalities - effectively imaginary interviews. He responded to Honvéd’s tour with a piece featuring Ferenc Puskás and Zizinho, still Brazil’s great hero, ending by asking each what was the most magical thing for them to do during a game. Zizinho answered that it was setting up a team-mate to score a goal, while for Puskás it was, not surprisingly, scoring a goal. The example may be whimsical, but it does give an indication of Brazilian football’s lack of pragmatism at the time.

He is the 4th top goalscorer of all time in terms of official matches according to rsssf

1. Bican, Josef (Austria, Bohemia/Moravia) 805+
2. Romário (Brazil) 772
3. Pelé (Brazil) 767
4. Puskás, Ferenc (Hungary) 746+
5. Müller, Gerd (Germany) 735
6. Deák, Ferenc (Hungary) 576+
7. Seeler, Uwe (Germany) 575
Tulio „Maravilha“ (Brazil) 575
9. Friedenreich, Artur (Brazil) 557
10. Willimowski, Ernst (Poland, Germany) 554

I was debating between Maradona, Pele and Puskas for the places up front. But I couldn’t leave Pele out. He was the most naturally gifted in every sense really, his control, his vision. Most people would chose Pele over Puskas because they saw more of him, but if you look at the stats, there’ s not much in it. I remember when Pele scored his 1,000th goal. The pictures went round the world and I mentioned it to Puskas.He replied: ‘I scored my 1,000th goal five years ago!’ – and he wasn’t being boastful. Maybe Pele and Puskas could play a half each!

I never saw Puskas miss a chance when he was one-on-one with the keeper. His goalscoring record is incredible – he got pretty much a goal a game for both Real Madrid and Hungary.

In addition to the individual rankings above by Gio he was more or less rated in just about every major footballing outlet/organisation being named in the top 10 players of all time in 11 of those 12 lists.

Players mentioned in ALL 12 lists:
1 - Franz BECKENBAUER (Germany)
2 - Robert "BOBBY" CHARLTON (England)
3 - Johan CRUYFF (Netherlands)
4 - Gerhardt "GERD" MÜLLER (Germany)
5 - Diego Armando MARADONA (Argentina)
6 - Édson Arantes do Nascimento - "PELÉ" (Brazil)

Players mentioned in 11 lists:
7 - EUSÉBIO Ferreira da Silva (Portugal)
8 - Michel PLATINI (France)
9 - Ferenc PUSKAS (Hungary)
10 - Arthur Antunes Coimbra - "ZICO" (Brazil)
11 - Dino ZOFF (Italy)

Also another vital point to note would be that, these players have much more freedom than in a standard 4-2-3-1 formation with just 3 roaming forwards and a great base supporting them. In a manner akin to how Jorge Valdano/Careca or Burruchaga/Giordano for that matter (the fabled Ma-Gi-Ca) - technical players who loved linking-up thrived in a 3-5-2/diamond-esque formation. Even at Barcelona, Maradona loved playing alongside the technical trickster Carrasco in a fluid forward duo, with Schuster behind to dovetail with. Perhaps Puskas behind a more rigid #10 might have been an issue but Maradona was anything but that. He loved dropping to the flanks, linking up with fellow forwards and most certainly didn't mind players dropping deep and linking up with him etc. Likewise, Puskas excelled playing behind the fluid di Stefano for Real and dovetailed beautifully with with the likes of the playmaking Hideguti and Bozsik for the Mighty Magyars.

How great was Ferenc Puskas? Such things, necessarily, are subjective - and, particularly when you're going on video footage, almost impossible to judge - but for me he stands alongside Johan Cruyff as one of the two greatest European players of all time.

It is not just his technical ability. Other players have had that. It is not even the fact that he had key parts in two of the most celebrated games ever played on British soil - Hungary's 6-3 victory over England at Wembley in 1953 and Real Madrid's 7-3 victory over Eintracht Frankfurt in 1960. It is the fact that that ability was allied to a brain that understood how best to use his ability for the team.

That is why his nickname, the 'Galloping Major', was so appropriate - even if he hardly galloped and, at the time it was bestowed, was only a lieutenant - because he was so good at marshalling his side towards a common goal. "If a good player has the ball, he should have the vision to spot three options," the full-back Jeno Buzanszky said. "Puskas always saw at least five."

Team-mates complained about Puskas's influence over coaches and about his constant hectoring on the pitch, but nobody ever accused him of being selfish. Along with everything else, he was a hugely astute leader. In his first season at Real Madrid, for instance, he and the notoriously difficult Alfredo di Stefano were joint leading scorers going into the final match of the season. Late on, Puskas had a chance to score but opted instead to wait and square it for Di Stefano, recognising the problems it could cause for morale if the Argentinian did not finish as top scorer. He showed similar selflessness after that 1960 European Cup final, handing the match ball to Erwin Stein, who had scored two of Eintracht's three goals. Puskas had scored four.

There are those who carp that Puskas was very left-footed. He was, but it hardly diminished him. "You can only kick with one foot at a time," he once said. "Otherwise you fall on your arse." As an example of how his turned a weakness into a strength, you only have to look at that game against England in 1953.

With Hungary leading 2-1, a cross from the left found him at the back post. He took the ball down and it seemed that he had to hit it with his right foot. Billy Wright, England's captain, went flying in to make a challenge, "rushing," as Geoffrey Green put it in the Times, "like a fire-engine going to the wrong fire". Puskas, slipped the ball back with the sole of his left foot, leaving Wright sprawling and, with barely any backlift, thrashed his finish past Gil Merrick. The Hungarian radio commentator Gyorgy Szepesi remembers walking on to the pitch after the game and examining the spot. "They should have laid down a plaque," he said.

All in all, I'd say that he has the fluid formation (one which gives the forwards more freedom and responsibility than a more conventional one perhaps) and the personnel to link up with here and they all have clearly defined roles which I believe they will carry out to a tee.

 

[Joga Bonito]

- Zanetti/Garrincha on the right - I too feel there can be issues with both working together. I don't feel Zanetti to be the type of player that would match well with Garrincha. Zanetti can be left exposed and while Rijkaard tries to cover that can leave space for Maradona in the center

Tbf, that's a solid flank imo as Zanetti in a balanced and a defensive role would be the perfect panacea for Garrincha's individualism, so I won't necessarily question the solidity of the flank. My only issue was that Zanetti bombing forward was a bit surplus to needs/not ideal with Garrincha there and also leave the flank potentially exoposed as Garrincha did zilch tracking back. Besides Garrincha simply wouldn't like having an overlapper alongside him, lest the overlapper commit the sin of taking an extra man away from him to beat .

Fachetti on it's own on the left. He has a huge role as well. With Garrincha/Zanetti he'll need support(Tardelli probably?) and I can see him providing a bit less attacking options due to having to deal with both of Aldo's flank defensively. In that formation I'd have someone like Seedorf or Bobby Charlton - with a great work rate but also more attacking options than Tardelli.

Facchetti has played this role to perfection for arguably two of the greatest defensive abominations of all time in Herrera's La Grande Inter and Italy which were both steeped in the dark arts of catenaccio. Needless to say, even then he did have a wee bit of support (Orsi as a LMF/LWF & Guarneri as a LCB) but he is very much at home in this role. He also couldn't have asked for better support than Krol, or even Tardelli if need be like you've stated.

Anyway, like I've stated above whilst it is a solid right flank for Aldo, I wouldn't really count Zanetti in the equation in terms of the players who will square up against Facchetti. That's not to discount Zanetti who will probably play a more reserved role and make an impact as a balanced FB from a deeper area but most certainly not as one marauding forward and linking up with Garrincha (as instructed) imo.

Also let's not forget Tardelli was immense for both the 1982 WC winning team (scoring the winner in the final) and for Platini & Scirea's classic Juve team. He was excellent on the ball and was frequently tasked with carrying it forward, at times even providing a bit of width etc, in addition to providing legs and the dynamism, in both phases of the game, for both the Juve and Italian teams to excel.

Breitner has to give a match winning performance here. With Monti and Tardelli he'll be the main creative player from deep and tasked to also carry the ball out and find either Maradona or Stoichkov/Puskas. If Aldo's side swarm the center and double up Maradona more of the time I can see the side struggling for creativity in midfield at some point of the game.

That is a valid point. Please be sure to read more about the role Monti played for Italy, being the backbone of the side which won the World Cup and the CEICs (Euros) and being a brilliant bridge between defense and attack on the ball - the link is in the OP. Breitner's quality on the ball is brilliant for a midfield general, he was truly an excellent passer of the ball. Also like I've stated above, Tardelli wasn't just a water carrier but a fine player on the ball, in addition to Krol who's sumptuous passing from deep (see the video above in post 11) means there will be no shortage of creativity in my side imho.

That midfield trio is the core of our team and it really can cover swathes of the pitch and together they are truly a fearsome trident who can potentially change the course of a match with their dynamism, sheer force of will and of course their brilliant quality on the ball.

All in all no clear weaknesses from both teams and some really heavy attacks, question of who will score more methinks

Like many have already stated it's a battle of 2 attacks. I do think we have the better defense however, and 2 of the best attacking players on the pitch in Maradona and Puskas (& Garrincha), the latter who I do believe faces less resistance to goal relatively (love Schulz myself so you wont find me playing him down). Stoichkov is a brilliant wing-forward who complements el Pibe and the Galloping Major perfectly and the Dagger's goalscoring exploits and predatory instincts are stuff of legend. Also let's take a look at some of the supplementary goalscoring threats in this match-up. Breitner formed a formidable 'strike-duo' with Rummenigge and his goalscoring impact was significant as a B2B player for Bayern in his second stint (a 1 in 2 record of 44 goals in 83 league matches at his peak). Likewise, funnily enough Facchetti had a brilliant record for a FB scoring 59 goals throughout his club career and he was most certainly one for the big occasions.

A nice post by Skozrenzy highlighting Facchetti's big game credentials

Also, in tight games like these the scorer is likely to be someone that isn't the main attacking threat, like a Facchetti or a Hierro (for Cutch).

In this sense, Facchetti has form. Of his 5 European Cup goals, 4 have come in the semi-finals. And all quite clutch goals as well.


1964/65 European Cup, Semi-Final, 2nd Leg | Inter 3 - 0 Liverpool; he scored the 3rd goal (very similar to Jordi Alba's goal in the Euro 2012 Final, great run forward, he receives a perfect pass into his stride and a great shot finish past the keeper, although in Facchetti's case it was right through the centre of the pitch, funnily enough not the left side), which meant Inter won the tie 4-3 on aggregate.

1965/66 European Cup, First Round, 2nd Leg | Inter 2 - 0 Dinamo Bucuresti; he scored the 2nd goal (headed in a cross), which meant Inter won the tie 3-2 on aggregate.

1965/66 European Cup, Semi-Final, 2nd Leg | Inter 1 - 1 Real Madrid; he scored the equaliser (a striker's finish as Inter tiki-taka their way through RM's defense and he receives the ball on the left side and finishes with a perfectly placed low diagonal shot in the side of the goal just inside the far post), but RM won the tie 2-1 on aggregate.

1966/67 European Cup, Semi-Final, 1st Leg | Inter 1 - 1 CSKA Red Flag (Sofia); he scored the opening goal (he turned in a cross I think, can't quite tell from a video I found as its quality is unclear; in open play anyway).

1966/67 European Cup, Semi-Final, 2nd Leg | CSKA Red Flag (Sofia) 1 - 1 Inter; he again scored the opening goal (headed in a corner), but the Bulgarians equalised which lead to a decisive, play-off game which Inter won 1-0.

 

[Physiocrat]

Both are awesome teams but I'm going for Aldo by 1.

I think Joga's team lacks some creativity and I'm not sure of Puskas in that forward role. Fine margins but Aldo has more goalscoring options.

 

[Enigma_87]

Tbf, that's a solid flank imo as Zanetti in a balanced and a defensive role would be the perfect panacea for Garrincha's individualism, so I won't necessarily question the solidity of the flank. My only issue was that Zanetti bombing forward was a bit surplus to needs/not ideal with Garrincha there and also leave the flank potentially exoposed as Garrincha did zilch tracking back. Besides Garrincha simply wouldn't like having an overlapper alongside him, lest the overlapper commit the sin of taking an extra man away from him to beat .

Obviously 2 great players and have nothing in them individually, basically share your points with Zanetti overlapping and being exposed on the flank. If he's given a more restricted defensive role it would make sense as Garrincha is the main man to get the ball and try to create something. But still I can see the natural desire in Zanetti to bomb forward at times.

Facchetti has played this role to perfection for arguably two of the greatest defensive abominations of all time in Herrera's La Grande Inter and Italy which were both steeped in the dark arts of catenaccio. Needless to say, even then he did have a wee bit of support (Orsi as a LMF/LWF & Guarneri as a LCB) but he is very much at home in this role. He also couldn't have asked for better support than Krol, or even Tardelli if need be like you've stated.

Anyway, like I've stated above whilst it is a solid right flank for Aldo, I wouldn't really count Zanetti in the equation in terms of the players who will square up against Facchetti. That's not to discount Zanetti who will probably play a more reserved role and make an impact as a balanced FB from a deeper area but most certainly not as one marauding forward and linking up with Garrincha (as instructed) imo.

Also let's not forget Tardelli was immense for both the 1982 WC winning team (scoring the winner in the final) and for Platini & Scirea's classic Juve team. He was excellent on the ball and was frequently tasked with carrying it forward, at times even providing a bit of width etc, in addition to providing legs and the dynamism, in both phases of the game, for both the Juve and Italian teams to excel.

That is a valid point. Please be sure to read more about the role Monti played for Italy, being the backbone of the side which won the World Cup and the CEICs (Euros) and being a brilliant bridge between defense and attack on the ball - the link is in the OP. Breitner's quality on the ball is brilliant for a midfield general, he was truly an excellent passer of the ball. Also like I've stated above, Tardelli wasn't just a water carrier but a fine player on the ball, in addition to Krol who's sumptuous passing from deep (see the video above in post 11) means there will be no shortage of creativity in my side imho.

That midfield trio is the core of our team and it really can cover swathes of the pitch and together they are truly a fearsome trident who can potentially change the course of a match with their dynamism, sheer force of will and of course their brilliant quality on the ball.

All valid points. I'll check out Monti. To be fair I don't know much about him I see him being picked in the last 2 drafts and being a great DM out of reports but haven't watched anything of him to be fair.

As for Breitner I know he's excellent passer even from the full back position which naturally lead him to progress in the middle.

I'll wait to see Aldo's points for this one, before deciding, but hell that Aldo's midfield looks terrific.

 

[VivaJanuzaj]

I'd actually fancy Thuram to be the type of defender who'll do well against Ronaldo's cuts to the inside, but I think Aldo will dominate the possession and will score once or twice more than his opponent. This seems like a classic goal galore for me. Attacks are too good with Aldo's fitting to possession and Joga's perfect for the counters.

 

[Moby]

I was really surprised that Joga dropped Law for this game in favour of Stoichkov? Lacking a proper number 9, though the Lawman himself of course dropped deep when he wanted but still, gives a lot of comfort to my central defense who are already protected by Rijkaard. Both Puskas and Stoichkov would naturally roam away from the penalty area and there's no one to constantly mark there. Also, there's way too much burden on Puskas to score on this one, similarly way too much burden on Maradona to create things with a very workman-like midfield behind him, whereas I have packed the team with multiple creative outlets and multiple world class goalscorers, in fact two of the best ever. Again, why Law should have really started this game. I have already spent majority of the game with no one occupying my CBs and most of the action happening in areas that are well covered by Rijkaard. Puskas' inside left role perfectly suits my right side of the defense with Schulz well capable of joining the midfield IF needed and cutting out Puskas from getting the ball, as well as Zanetti who would be absolutely at home if he has to join the midfield or that left channel where Puskas operates and chase him as soon as he gets the ball. There will be no room whatsoever for their only credible goalscorer which is a problem in such a tight game.

 

[Moby]

@Enigma_87 @Joga Bonito Re: Zanetti and Garrincha, you have understood it exactly as it's supposed to work, I never asked Zanetti to be another Dani Alves and bomb forward all the time, is that Zanetti's natural game? No. Cabrini is easily the more attacking of the two fullbacks here while Zanetti is more supporting than attacking. He can easily become a wide midfielder behind Garrincha who would ensure that he has support and gets the ball back as soon as possible and gets onto the next wave of attack. Zanetti's world class qualities on the ball such technique, short passing and reading of the game around him would be invaluable in this setup and help the Brazilian excel. In fact, it would make retaining possession for my midfield even easier having someone as fantastic on and off the ball as Pupi. He's the perfect supporting cast for this star studded attack and midfield. A truly selfless team player who adds tremendous quality in both phases and works his socks off for the benefit of the team, precisely what we need here.

 

[Moby]

A wise man (@Balu) once said, the only way to stop Cristiano Ronaldo from scoring is to cut out his service, there's no point in marking him, or chasing him around, he will evade your marking, and your chasing, his movement off the ball with his strength and pace is simply unstoppable and has made him a proper goal machine.

He will absolutely revel with the amount of creativity and he is the perfect outlet to have. There's no way in hell that our team's creative central is getting shut down while we have two absolute giants in Xavi and Bernd Schuster to keep on churning in one chance after another, while Garrincha who is seeing most of the ball - a daunting proposition for anyone - will constantly beat his defenders and get the ball into the box. There's width to stretch play as well as world class central playmakers to break it down constantly. That sort of combination will result in loads of chances, no doubt and Ronaldo will get on the end of them, period. Can the same be said about the opposition? While they have a great creative presence in Maradona - it simply pales in comparison to Xavi+Schuster+Garrincha. That is one hell of a creative unit in which all three present three vast arrays of qualities on the ball and that will be enough to break the opposition. And while Puskas is a great scorer, I have two better scorers on the pitch in Cristiano Ronaldo and Romario. Romario claims to have scored 1000 goals in his career, while Cristiano Ronaldo has done this:

That is one of the most insane goal scoring runs ANYONE has gone onto, and you are talking about stopping this guy from scoring? With Garrincha peeling wide, going past players and having his awesome body to aim with his delicious crosses? Or Xavi threading one slicing through the midfield leaving him 1v1 with the keeper? Or Schuster bombing forward on one of his famous forays and laying one up for him? Or Garrincha cutting in and drilling one across for him to score, what he's most famous on the caf for - a tap in.

Doesn't matter how they go in, goals are goals and they win games. Period. And Cristiano is simply going to do that. No fancies, no tricks, no bullshit, one aim - ball in the net.

 

[Moby]

4 votes for losing by 2 goals - who the hell is scoring those goals for Joga?

The best player in his team is against the best defensive midfielder of all time. His team creatively revolves around Maradona and he's facing the most difficult challenge in this game out of all attacking players to get out of Rijkaard's shadow. There's no one better suited to really disrupt the Argentine's game and constantly be an annoying presence be it tackling or intercepting. Diego will still obviously create chances but it will be greatly reduced due to Rijkaard's presence and nullify his attacking threat even further.

I on the other hand, don't depend on one player for creating. Nor do I depend on one player for scoring. You can stop one but there'll always be someone else for me doing that job, the same cannot be said for Joga.

 

[Moby]

Let's take a look at the man providing these chances.

This man will enjoy most of the ball in this game.

​

 

[Balu]

3 votes for losing by 2 goals - who the hell is scoring those goals for Joga?

I like your team overall, the set-up, the players, who fit nicely to their roles. I'd probably prefer a different kind of striker next to Cristiano, but it's a minor issue because of what your midfield offers with their passing (Xavi's throughballs prior to 2010, when his role in the team changed a bit, were just sensational and are nowadays a bit underrated). I just think your centerbacks aren't up for the job. While it's difficult to imagine that you won't score, it's still believable that for example Thuram does as good a job as humanly possible on Cristiano, because he just happens to be the perfect fit to defend against him. I just don't see anything like that from your team against his forwards.

And Puskas is always good for a hattrick against anyone, if you need goals. Even if we assume it's the true number 9 Real Madrid version of him and not the more free roaming early/mid 50's peak version from his Hungarian days. 4-2 Joga, Puskas twice, Stoichkov, Maradona, Romario and Cristiano each with one would be my guess. Sorry mate.

Oh and I'm still slightly uncomfortable with both you and Joga quoting older posts of mine as some sort of expert opinion. I don't value my own opinion that highly, but thanks for the appreciation anyway .

 

[Moby]

Anyway, we are talking about a guy whose WC peak performances is unmatched, almost single-handedly dragging Argentina through to a WC trophy

I'm happy you brought that up, as I have the only other player who can match that comparison. It was a sight to behold as Garrincha carried Brazil to that WC in 1962.

 

[Balu]

By the way, I don't get why anyone would think that Joga lacks creativity. It's easy to imagine the Breitner - Stoichkov pair to work like Breitner - Rummenigge did and that's certainly a damn brilliant back-up plan for Maradona. I also think that Tardelli's ability on the ball is a bit underrated.

 

[Moby]

I just think your centerbacks aren't up for the job.

Fair enough, but who are they up against?

There's no striker on the pitch. He has an attacking midfielder, a winger and an inside left who's style of play never meant he would be staying in the box. Moreover, those defenders are guarded by possibly the greatest player you can think of for that role.

I would understand if Charles was under constant pressure by someone like Muller for example, here his job has been quite easier by the opposition manager. Puskas' territory falls under Schulz and Zanetti - and I would have to disagree if you think they would do a worse job on Puskas than Thuram would on Ronaldo.

Now, adding more on that, Puskas is his ONLY legit source of goals - in a tight match like this it can be incredibly risky and you can fall short of goals despite doing whatever else. On the other hand, even if you think Ronaldo would be stopped by Thuram (read the role I have given Ronaldo, he is an outlet, pure and simple. I don't care if he doesn't dribble or track back or whatever, he is getting at the end of the chances created by my great creative unit using his off the ball movement and positioning, tap in, penalty, what-the-feck-ever, doesn't matter, he is a goal machine and with this service it's hard to imagine ANYONE stopping him getting on the score sheet) there is Romario, another world class striker and someone who can surely make use of that service. That gives me a tremendous advantage.

Lastly, Ronaldo is complementing the other wide player as well as the midfield than Puskas is in that team. Being harsh here, but he looks shoehorned there. @Joga Bonito himself mentioned how all three of Law, Maradona and Stoichkov shared a common aggressive nature, a tenacious mentality and a fighter's spirit and that would not only make them work together better but also be more effective. In a counter attacking setup you need a lot of will and desire to cover that ground, get from one pitch to another. When has Puskas played in a similar setup with a similar attacking mentality? Dropping Law was a blunder - there I said it. He would have occupied my CBs, given a lot more goal threat and Law suits his attack way better than Puskas. The hat tricks you talk about , how many of them were in a proper Italian counter attacking setup with work horses occupying midfield and not having any goal scoring options? Is Puskas at his best being the primary goal scorer and not having a proper number 9 alongside/ahead of him?

No such questions can be raised about my team, I have not put anyone out of their comfort zone. Remember anto once used Garrincha in a counter attacking setup and he was accused of the same, whereas here I have given him a midfield that would keep the ball, circulate it and allow him as much time on it as he wants, and he will absolutely shine in that role. Think about it, at least a two goal winning margin is surely harsh? Him scoring two more goals than me? I honestly can't see that.

 

[Moby]

By the way, I don't get why anyone would think that Joga lacks creativity. It's easy to imagine the Breitner - Stoichkov pair to work like Breitner - Rummenigge did and that's certainly a damn brilliant back-up plan for Maradona. I also think that Tardelli's ability on the ball is a bit underrated.

Relatively, he does. His midfielders are all good on the ball, no doubt, but I'd argue that Rijkaard alone in my team can match up that 'level on the ball' while both Xavi and Schuster take it to another level. You can't expect the same amount of unpredictability or buildups that you can from mine. Sure they will all pass it neatly and we'll need to be alert but a lot of the times we'll pretty much know what's gonna happen and there's not much mental pressure on our midfield to constantly guess what they're gonna do, whereas that's exactly the kind of pressure anyone playing against Xavi would face. That man turns the game on it's head with a single pass.

 

[Enigma_87]

By the way, I don't get why anyone would think that Joga lacks creativity. It's easy to imagine the Breitner - Stoichkov pair to work like Breitner - Rummenigge did and that's certainly a damn brilliant back-up plan for Maradona. I also think that Tardelli's ability on the ball is a bit underrated.

I think Gio/Joga lack a bit of creativity with Monti/Tardelli/Breitner. Sure they are all good on the ball(haven't seen Monti but provided by reports) and have excellent passing in Breitner, but here's an all time draft and having in mind the team against there are no loopholes and we're looking at the best defensive lines and midfielders that would close the space quickly and read the game like no other.

Aldo midfield has both Xavi and Schuster that can pull the strings provided one of them is closed and pressed, while if Maradona is doubled even tripled I can see a bit of a struggle in imagination and relatively low options in wide positions at some points of the game (not all game of course).

With that being said I think Gio/Joga midfield would see a bit more of the ball as they have more hardworking side - on the other hand Aldo's front 3 is very pacy so counter attacking for this one would make sense.

 

[Moby]

Joga has gone with a diamond, and for his two player up front one is a hard working winger while the other an inside left who played in attacks of 5 and specially with a proper nine/spearhead next to him and his style of play involved dropping deep, roaming between the lines and picking up gaps. There's no one up front.

I have possibly the greatest out and out striker of all time who has claimed to score 1000 goals and ranks as one of the deadliest strikers ever. Next to him is one of the greatest goal machines ever who has continued his tremendous scoring form across leagues, tournaments, seasons, opponents, competitions, you name it. Things change but Ronaldo never stops scoring, he's as close to a machine you can come.

Yet I have four votes against me where He is scoring two more goals than me?

Words fail me.

 

[Joga Bonito]

I think Joga's team lacks some creativity

I would have to disagree there and I don't want to repeat myself, so please check post 17 if you can.

Both Puskas and Stoichkov would naturally roam away from the penalty area and there's no one to constantly mark there.

Nah, Puskas did have freedom to roam and drop deep but he has played up front for Real to great effect and in fact you can check out his performance against Benfica in that video above, if you have any doubts.

Also, there's way too much burden on Puskas to score on this one, similarly way too much burden on Maradona to create things with a very workman-like midfield behind him

Not really. Puskas faces the least resistance in this match-up and I'd say there is a higher chance of Puskas getting on the scoresheet with him facing Schulz-Charles and Maradona of all peoplebeing the supply line; as opposed to facing Thuram and Krol with two extremely individualistic forwards who aren't going to be supplying the same stream of supply for Romario. Garrincha's low crossing was very good but surely Romario would prefer a more steady stream of supply. Btw has Romario ever excelled in a 4-3-3 without a support striker/playmaking #10 ala Stoichkov/Laudrup/Ronaldo/Edmundo etc behind him? Is he ideal to spearhead a 4-3-3? Not imo and I'd much rather have a creative presence in close tandem with him and it's a shame you've replaced Rivelino, who was a great fit there as Chester stated above, for the more individualistic Ronaldo who would probably treat Romario as a foil of sorts.

Schulz well capable of joining the midfield IF needed

He wasn't a libero by any means but rather more sweeper like in his play and comfortable on the ball. Expecting him to play a Scirea/Beckenbauer or even a Moore-esque role isn't what he is capable of.

There will be no room whatsoever for their only credible goalscorer which is a problem in such a tight game.

Puskas is not my only credible goalscorer here btw. I've got someone in the team who is Napoli's top scorer of all time - 81 goals in 188 games - in the ridiculously strong Italian Serie A, where he had to come up against the likes of Rijkaard, Scirea, Baresi, Passarella, Matthäus, Bergomi, Brehme, Maldini etc (that's probably 5 of the top 10 defenders of all time there, in addition to arguably the greatest B2B and defensive B2B midfielder of all time ) and even finished as a top scorer once in Serie A. That too in addition to someone who scored 109 goals in 5 years for the 'Dream Team' in his first stint, bagged the European Golden Shoe and a World Cup Golden Shoe. Let's look at the supplementary goalscoring threats my team has - Breitner someone who banged in 66 goals in 146 games (an almost 1 in 2 record) for Bayern as a midfield general and of course Giacinto Facchetti who is a great goalscorer for a FB and I've highlighted his clutch goalscoring exploits in post 17.

Romario, who is up against Krol who is perfectly suited to dealing with him - with his impeccable reading of the game, pace, agility, speed on the turn/over the first few yards. None of the weaknesses that could perhaps be exploited by Romario against a more stopper-ish keeper. There isn't anyone better suited to dealing with Ronaldo than one Lilian Thuram and of course Facchetti against Garrincha. So which one of your attackers is going to have a good game here as Puskas/Maradona or Stoichkov or going to have?

4 votes for losing by 2 goals - who the hell is scoring those goals for Joga?

So yeah, I wonder who is going to score for my team . Would be quite the task guessing which one of Puskas, Maradona, Stoichkov, Breitner or heck even Facchetti are going to be on the scoresheet here.

The best player in his team is against the best defensive midfielder of all time. His team creatively revolves around Maradona and he's facing the most difficult challenge in this game out of all attacking players to get out of Rijkaard's shadow.Diego will still obviously create chances but it will be greatly reduced due to Rijkaard's presence and nullify his attacking threat even further.

If I have to pick one, it'd be Maradona; when he was on form, there was almost no way of stopping him.

He was dangerous, he used to score against us often. We had to be very well organised; put pressure on him, doubling up, tripling up even to limit his talents. Because if it was one-on-one, you’d lose.

Maradona destroyed all my theories about football. We could dominate playing great football as a team, but then he needed just one touch to completely change the game.

Yes of course, "greatly reduced"

 

[Joga Bonito]

I think Joga's team lacks some creativity

I would have to disagree with that and I don't want to repeat myself, so please check post 17 if you can.

Both Puskas and Stoichkov would naturally roam away from the penalty area and there's no one to constantly mark there.

Nah, Puskas did have freedom to roam and drop deep but he has played up front for Real to great effect and in fact you can check out his performance against Benfica in that video above, if you have any doubts.

Also, there's way too much burden on Puskas to score on this one, similarly way too much burden on Maradona to create things with a very workman-like midfield behind him

Not really. Puskas faces the least resistance in this match-up and I'd say there is a higher chance of Puskas getting on the scoresheet with him facing Schulz-Charles and Maradona of all peoplebeing the supply line; as opposed to facing Thuram and Krol with two extremely individualistic forwards who aren't going to be supplying the same stream of supply for Romario. Garrincha's low crossing was very good but surely Romario would prefer a more steady stream of supply. Btw has Romario ever excelled in a 4-3-3 without a support striker/playmaking #10 ala Stoichkov/Laudrup/Ronaldo/Edmundo etc behind him? Is he ideal to spearhead a 4-3-3? Not imo and I'd much rather have a creative presence in close tandem with him and it's a shame you've replaced Rivelino, who was a great fit there as Chester stated above, for the more individualistic Ronaldo who would probably treat Romario as a foil of sorts.

Schulz well capable of joining the midfield IF needed

He wasn't a libero by any means but rather more sweeper like in his play and comfortable on the ball. Expecting him to play a Scirea/Beckenbauer or even a Moore-esque role isn't what he is capable of.

There will be no room whatsoever for their only credible goalscorer which is a problem in such a tight game.

Puskas is not my only credible goalscorer here btw. I've got someone in the team who is Napoli's top scorer of all time - 81 goals in 188 games - in the ridiculously strong Italian Serie A, where he had to come up against the likes of Rijkaard, Scirea, Baresi, Passarella, Matthäus, Bergomi, Brehme, Maldini etc (that's probably 5 of the top 10 defenders of all time there, in addition to arguably the greatest B2B and defensive B2B midfielder of all time ) and even finished as a top scorer once in Serie A. That too in addition to someone who scored 109 goals in 5 years for the 'Dream Team' in his first stint, bagged the European Golden Shoe and a World Cup Golden Shoe. Let's look at the supplementary goalscoring threats my team has - Breitner someone who banged in 66 goals in 146 games (an almost 1 in 2 record) for Bayern as a midfield general and of course Giacinto Facchetti who is a great goalscorer for a FB and I've highlighted his clutch goalscoring exploits in post 17.

Romario, who is up against Krol who is perfectly suited to dealing with him - with his impeccable reading of the game, pace, agility, speed on the turn/over the first few yards. None of the weaknesses that could perhaps be exploited by Romario against a more stopper-ish keeper. There isn't anyone better suited to dealing with Ronaldo than one Lilian Thuram and of course Facchetti against Garrincha. So which one of your attackers is going to have a good game here as Puskas/Maradona or Stoichkov or going to have?

4 votes for losing by 2 goals - who the hell is scoring those goals for Joga?

So yeah, I wonder who is going to score for my team . Would be quite the task guessing which one of Puskas, Maradona, Stoichkov, Breitner or heck even Facchetti are going to be on the scoresheet here.

The best player in his team is against the best defensive midfielder of all time. His team creatively revolves around Maradona and he's facing the most difficult challenge in this game out of all attacking players to get out of Rijkaard's shadow.Diego will still obviously create chances but it will be greatly reduced due to Rijkaard's presence and nullify his attacking threat even further.

If I have to pick one, it'd be Maradona; when he was on form, there was almost no way of stopping him.

He was dangerous, he used to score against us often. We had to be very well organised; put pressure on him, doubling up, tripling up even to limit his talents. Because if it was one-on-one, you’d lose.

Maradona destroyed all my theories about football. We could dominate playing great football as a team, but then he needed just one touch to completely change the game.

Yes of course, "greatly reduced"

 

[Balu]

There's no striker on the pitch. He has an attacking midfielder, a winger and an inside left who's style of play never meant he would be staying in the box. Moreover, those defenders are guarded by possibly the greatest player you can think of for that role.

I don't think that's true for Puskas. I'd class him as a well rounded number 9, even at his peak for Hungary. It's difficult to pinpoint who played what role between him, Kocsis and Hidegkuti, because all three were well rounded forward who played as number 10s, number 9s and inside forwards at some point in their career depending on what their team needed. They excelled in all those roles. I get your point though, if you want to argue that he might not get to use his full strength.

He was certainly a clear number 9 for Real though. I don't think he can be classed as anything but that and the player who excelled next to Di Stefano would also excel next to Maradona in my opinion.

Relatively, he does. His midfielders are all good on the ball, no doubt, but I'd argue that Rijkaard alone in my team can match up that 'level on the ball' while both Xavi and Schuster take it to another level. You can't expect the same amount of unpredictability or buildups that you can from mine. Sure they will all pass it neatly and we'll need to be alert but a lot of the times we'll pretty much know what's gonna happen and there's not much mental pressure on our midfield to constantly guess what they're gonna do, whereas that's exactly the kind of pressure anyone playing against Xavi would face. That man turns the game on it's head with a single pass.

It's difficult to compare, because they are different midfield set-ups. Maradona is clearly the standout playmaker on the pitch though, let's not forget that inbetween all the praise for Xavi (which he deserves of course).

 

[Moby]

I think Gio/Joga lack a bit of creativity with Monti/Tardelli/Breitner.

Absolutely.

We can all be pedantic and start pointing out things that won't matter in this game e.g. Tardelli's creative input or we can all actually discuss qualities that are bound to make a difference. All players involved here are legends and who possess multiple attributes so responding with bringing up qualities that won't matter as much is of little use. I can bang the drum about Cristiano's ability on the ball which again is good enough to be mentioned here but I have focussed on things like movement, positioning and finishing which matter in this context. So when I say he lacks creativity, it doesn't mean I am saying his midfielders are shite on the ball, but not good enough to make a difference here.

 

[Moby]

Nah, Puskas did have freedom to roam and drop deep but he has played up front for Real to great effect and in fact you can check out his performance against Benfica in that video above, if you have any doubts.

I'll be happy if he's doing that, far less effective and clearly further from what made him the great we know. If you just wanted a number 9, why pick Puskas? Face value?

 

[Enigma_87]

Fair enough, but who are they up against?

There's no striker on the pitch. He has an attacking midfielder, a winger and an inside left who's style of play never meant he would be staying in the box. Moreover, those defenders are guarded by possibly the greatest player you can think of for that role.

Now, adding more on that, Puskas is his ONLY legit source of goals - in a tight match like this it can be incredibly risky and you can fall short of goals despite doing whatever else. On the other hand, even if you think Ronaldo would be stopped by Thuram (read the role I have given Ronaldo, he is an outlet, pure and simple. I don't care if he doesn't dribble or track back or whatever, he is getting at the end of the chances created by my great creative unit using his off the ball movement and positioning, tap in, penalty, what-the-feck-ever, doesn't matter, he is a goal machine and with this service it's hard to imagine ANYONE stopping him getting on the score sheet) there is Romario, another world class striker and someone who can surely make use of that service. That gives me a tremendous advantage.

If I were Gio/Joga I wouldn't touch that attacking 3, maybe only having a Garrincha or Best type on the right would make it better. Maradona/Puskas/Stoichkov give the right balance in that formation - Stoichkov on the right to supplement Gerets, Maradona behind Puskas who has a free roaming role.

If anything if you put a target man or another striker besides Puskas that would make it too narrow to work with and overloading the midfield/center of defence would be a bit tougher to break.

Stoichkov also gives a bit of a grit that would certainly be helpful for the midfield.

 

[Moby]

Btw has Romario ever excelled in a 4-3-3 without a support striker/playmaking #10 ala Stoichkov/Laudrup/Ronaldo/Edmundo etc behind him?

He has Ronaldo in close attendance, who plays more as a forward than a winger. Secondly he has Schuster as the more advanced playmaker, and whose natural game always leaves him near the box in attack, and he is a damn good creative playmaker in that area. Thirdly, there's Garrincha, who's not a typical wide player in 4-3-3, and is a proper creative wide man who would constantly providing service to Romario and Ronaldo.

All players while in their natural game are going to complement each other here.

 

[Moby]

If I were Gio/Joga I wouldn't touch that attacking 3, maybe only having a Garrincha or Best type on the right would make it better. Maradona/Puskas/Stoichkov give the right balance in that formation - Stoichkov on the right to supplement Gerets, Maradona behind Puskas who has a free roaming role.

If anything if you put a target man or another striker besides Puskas that would make it too narrow to work with and overloading the midfield/center of defence would be a bit tougher to break.

Stoichkov also gives a bit of a grit that would certainly be helpful for the midfield.

I understand what they do in terms of attacking play and running the channels, but where are the goals coming from?

And Joga has just stated that Puskas is playing up front, not in his natural role. So what's it gonna be?