Biggest All-Time Draft - R1 - The Red Viper vs Pat_Mustard

With players at their peak, who would win?


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Physiocrat

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The Red Viper

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Pat_Mustard

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The Red Viper Tactics

We will play a 5-3-2 formation which can transition into a 3-4-3 during games when needed, with Kopa as a right sided attacking midfielder and Kalle as a left wing forward/second striker. Sammer will have full license to make darting runs during the attacking phase and provide more nos in midfield.

The defense comprises of Zoff in goal with a back-5 of Kaltz, Förster, Sammer, Ferrara and Gordillo. Usually considered a top-3/at worst Top-5 goalkeepers of all time, Zoff will be in goal. A fantastic all rounded goal-keeper with great leadership and organizing ability. Kaltz and Gordillo will be the wing-backs in the team. Two excellent attacking full-backs with fantastic delivery from the flanks, especially Kaltz who is usually considered one of the greatest crossers ever. Sammer is one of the greatest sweepers ever. While he may not have had the longevity like a lot of great defenders, at his peak, in terms of impacting the game he was as good as any great defender. There's a reason he is one of the 3 defenders to have ever won Ballon D'or. Marshalled Germany to win UEFA Euros in 1996 and UEFA Champions League in 1997 with Dortmund. Partnering Sammer in the core of the central defense are Förster and Ferrara. Förster, one of the finest man-markers ever, could man-mark a top tier poacher like Hugo Sánchez as effectively as he could man-mark one of the greatest No 10s ever in Michel Platini, as he demonstrated during the 1986 FIFA World Cup. Ferrara's career was somewhat mared with injuries which stopped him from being considered amongst the all-time great defenders ever. But he still had enough sample size and performances to be rated a fantastic defender. A very complete defender who could play across the backline in a variety of roles. Be it as a sweeper, man-marker or as a full-back. He was quick, read the game really well, had great anticipation and could step out wide and defend one on one against fast tricky wide attackers. There's a reason why Giggs and Boniek, two of the best wide attackers in the 80s and 90s considered Ferrara the toughest defender they have faced.

In midfield we are rolling with a double-pivot of Tigana and Coluna. Two really complete midfielders who possesed high energy and intensity in midfield and could win back the possession. But at the same time quite adept at creating and making plays in the attacking phase of the game. Tigana was an excellent ball carrier with really smooth close control in tight spaces while Coluna was a more physical player who used his physique and technique for the incisive driving runs into the final third, and also possesed the passing range to feed the attackers. Coluna was a proper big game player as well. Scored in both of Benfica's European Cup wins in the Final.

In attack we have an attacking triumvirate of Gerd Müller, Rummenigge and Kopa. At No 10, we have the 1958 Ballon D'or Winner, Kopa who is one of the greatest playmakers to have graced the game of football. Kopa will feed our attack with his incisive passing and fantastic through-balls. The current record holder for the most assists in a FIFA World Cup tournament, Raymond Kopa is the perfect player to provide ammo for our attack to thrive. Along with dropping deep and providing through balls for Müller and Kalle, Kopa can also drift out wide and be a withdrawn wide attacking midfielder where he can link up with Kaltz and find him to put in his famous banana crosses for the strike-force. The two-time Ballon D'or winner in 1980 & 1981, Rummenigge would be playing in front of Kopa and off Gerd Müller in a second striker-ish/withdrawn forward role. Kalle was an athletic all-round forward, who could play across the front line be it as a wing-forward on both the sides, a second striker or upfront on his own, which made him as one of the most completed attackers the World has ever seen. His link-up play along with his incisive runs into the box from wide areas or deep will be a nightmare for opposition to defend. Rounding up the attack, up-front we have Gerd Müller, possibly the greatest goalscorer ever leading the line for us. With Kaltz and Gordillo pumping in crosses from the flanks, Kalle and Kopa creating and playmaking from centrally along with Coluna and Sammer from deep, there will be plenty of service to feed arguably the greatest No 9 ever.

Pat_Mustard Tactics

Formation/Style of Play: A modern 4-2-2-2 akin to that deployed by RB Leipzig under Rangnick, Hasenhuttl, Nagelsmann and Rose. High defensive line with intense counter-pressing high up the pitch. Direct and vertical in attack, generally aiming to get the ball to the attacking four as quickly as possible in the build-up. FBs responsible for occupying the outside channels in possession, with the AMs and strikers situationally peeling out wide to create overloads.

  • A quality sweeper-keeper in VDS, with two CBS who are comfortable defending large spaces and dealing with long balls. Martinez is an expert at screening and covering, allowing Keane to harry and press.
  • Kimmich is a quality creator from RB and proven in high-line pressing systems. Zebec is somewhat of an unknown quantity in that regard, but seems to have the speed, athleticism and tactical malleability to carry out the role.
  • Keane's punchy, direct style of high-volume passing looks a good fit for this aggressive and direct system.
  • High workrate was an essential criteria for the attackers, with Kempes and Suarez in particular boasting manic energy and determination. Reus' workrate was always good but improved yet further later in his career, and Kicker Magazine nicely summarised Hassler as "a successful blend of a tireless midfield worker, a playmaker and a tricky winger. A rare breed in that he was an individualist who was committed to teamplay."
  • The direct, surging Kempes and and the collective-orientated playmaking and creativity of Hassler offer a nice contrast of styles in the AM positions. The initial plan was Reus in the left-midfield berth and Kempes as the second striker, but after looking into Reus' breakout season at Gladbach as a SS and subsequent form for Dortmund when played centrally I reversed it. The quality and selflessness of his off-the-ball movement, particularly into wider areas, will be key to pulling defenders out of position and creating space for the likes of Kempes to surge into.
 
mustard teqm is a thing of beauty, dont you dare drop reus! dont rate kimmich and not sure about kempes in that role but apart from that it looks lovely!

nice one from viper as well, just not a fan of those fullbacks and they are crucial in this formation
 
Like both teams. Really neatly designed. TRV packing a lot of quality across the board, Pat looking cohesive and more than the sum of its parts. Solid write-ups too.
 
Can only agree, two really good teams.

I think Gordillo and Kaltz are great fits to deliver what TRV needs out wide. Both also playing the same positions as during their 1980s prime. Took a look at Gordillo a few years ago, and really liked what I saw.

Maybe Coluna + Tigana + Sammer is a bit much ball carrying focus in midfield (where I reckon Sammer will operate a lot as well)? Tigana on the other hand is certainly adaptable...

Pat_Mustard said:
The initial plan was Reus in the left-midfield berth and Kempes as the second striker, but after looking into Reus' breakout season at Gladbach as a SS and subsequent form for Dortmund when played centrally I reversed it.
Although I consider peak Kempes a tier above as a 9.5 (= Ballon d'Or level), this is the right overall choice, imo. The LAM position should work fine for Kempes, and Reus is exactly where he must play in a 4222.
 
Maybe Coluna + Tigana + Sammer is a bit much ball carrying focus in midfield (where I reckon Sammer will operate a lot as well)? Tigana on the other hand is certainly adaptable...

Dont mind this in a 3-5-2 to be honest. Faced a little flak last draft myself around similar subjects (on the ball and off the ball), but when you have 5 defenders on the pitch, it's natural to have a more freehand for the midfielders in my eyes as long as they are capable of putting a decent shift in which I think Tigana and Coluna are more than capable of.

The OP also nicely mentions Kopa drifting rightwards and Kalle leftwards to transform to a 3-4-3 and suddenly it doesn't look that crowded in the centre as well.

think Gordillo and Kaltz are great fits to deliver what TRV needs out wide.
Kaltz is definitely a great fit IMO.
 
How agile was Coluna? From what I remember he was a bit lumbering so am wondering how good his protection of the back 5 will be out of possession.
 
Two great tactics with great fits.
My question for @Pat_Mustard is which version of Reus are you playing since you mention both his breakout season and his greater workrate later in his career?
For @The Red Viper with Gordillo an attacking left back how are you handling an that side with Kimmich, Hassler Reus all possible to overload right?
 
Rate Gordillo highly from what I've seen of him. Great feet, good technique, effective at LB and LM. Fits the bill for me.

Haven't seen much of Kaltz.
 
Two great tactics with great fits.
My question for @Pat_Mustard is which version of Reus are you playing since you mention both his breakout season and his greater workrate later in his career?

Good question. I'm opting for his post-injury peak around 2018. I didn't watch him every week like I did with, say, Scholes to be properly familiar with his development as a player, so I took the path of least resistance and searched Sphaero's posts about him (excellent Dortmund-supporting poster who disappeared several years ago). Here's a couple of his posts from 2018 regarding Reus:

Thank feck Kramers joke of a goal did not decide anything in this game. I might have broken something otherwise.

Overall great finish of an astounding season half, 42 points and only a single loss in the league is simply fantastic.

There are several players who stood out in a in general strong team. Bürki basically played a perfect round, free of major errors and tons of strong saves, Witsel performed on a level of consistency that is simply ridiculous, Alcacer with his crazy quota in trems of goals and of course everyone rightfully is full of praise about Sancho.

And yet one player still outshined them a bit and cemented himself as the teams super star and as of now leagues best player, eventhough he lacks the ego many players with this standing have.

Marco Reus´ season so far is exceptional on multiple levels. He started every single league games, playing over the full distance in all but two games. His stats already impress (11 goals, 7 assists), but don´t even fully do justice to show his contributions to our game. He influences basically every attack, the number of pre assists alone should be in the double digits by now. On top of that, the player you would get a heart attack every time he clashes with an opponent suddenly developed the defensive awareness and skills that would put many defensive midfielders to shame. You could fill a lengthy highlight video with his interceptions and tackles alone.

I already wrote a couple of times about the way he fills out his role as captain and leader of the team. He suprised basically everyone with how well he took that role. By now I would not be surprised if in a couple years supporters would put him in the same tier as Sebastian Kehl (captain during the vast majority of the Klopp era and probably the second best captain we ever had) in terms of greatness as captain.

You are right, he is not the same player anymore. He is objectively better now.

Don´t get me wrong, the Reus of 2010-2014 was a menance in the final third of the pitch: explosive dribbling, two footed, incredible shooting technique, good finishing, smart running paths and a threat with free kicks. He averaged a goal or assist every 75 minutes in the 2013/2014 season (his best season before his injuries), a crazy stat which can only be described as world class.

This season Reus stands at 11 goals and 7 assists in around 1.400 minutes, which results in an average of 81 minutes, statistically a tad worse but if we take into account that he plays far more games over the whole distance now (he was often subbed off by Klopp after around 60-70 minutes back then), which inflates the stat a bit, there is no real difference in his scoring abilites. He also retained all of his above mentioned strengths bar his ability as FK taker, which did regress.

Instead of losing things over the last few years, he actually became stronger in other areas. In terms of defensive contribution he operates in a completely different league right now: interceptions, clearances, tackles, pressing, general defensive movement. All of it improved. His area of influence also grew a lot. He is far less restricted to the final third than he used to be. He drops deeper and operates with more width now. He is constantly on the move, initiating combination and offering himself as constant link up partner (especially this part helps our young wingers a lot). I don´t have the stat at hand, but I would be very surprised if the number of his pre assists did not grew a lot.

To put it simple, Reus is a far more well rounded offensive midfielder now, taking over more duties as play maker on top of his abilites as scoring machine. This is also the reason why he plays so many minutes. He evolved from a great attacking asset into the heart of the offense. Then there is of course his development as personality from a somewhat shy and quiet player into a confident undisputed leader of the team.

If I would have to choose between the Reus of 2014 and the one of 2018, i would pick the latter in a heart beat. Everything else would just be notalgica.
 
the level of play in pre injury reus makes that a non contest IMO, he was deciding huge CL games on his own at his peak....one of the best wide players i ever saw that sadly will never get the true credit as BVB won feck all and he was always injured for international tournos :(
 
Great team from both sides imo.


I don't think it would be too congested in the center because both Kalle and Kopa are versatile enough to drift wide. On the contrary, it seems to add flexibility to the play, as there would be appropriate spaces in both the half-space and wide areas.

I don't believe either would have an issue with work rate. The front three of Viper have the ability to cover ground and contribute defensively as well. Both could even drop into 5-4-1 shape and track Pat’s full-back or side AMs.

Pat’s team, in terms of collective play, is a thing of beauty. Kempes played a similar role in the 1978 World Cup—a kind of half-attacking midfielder, half-deep forward on the left.
 
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Yeah. I don't understand the Kaltz criticism.

Especially considering the role he is playing here. Man was known for his marauding runs on the right flank and has been usually considered one of the best crossers from the full backs position. He was excellent at switching plays from deep as well.

Here's a compilation of him vs Madrid in European Cup semi finals.



Especially with Müller and Rummenigge to target, Kaltz is one of the best options to have as the RWB because he can offer genuine creativity and service from the flanks along with stretching the game.
 
Can only agree, two really good teams.

I think Gordillo and Kaltz are great fits to deliver what TRV needs out wide. Both also playing the same positions as during their 1980s prime. Took a look at Gordillo a few years ago, and really liked what I saw.

Maybe Coluna + Tigana + Sammer is a bit much ball carrying focus in midfield (where I reckon Sammer will operate a lot as well)? Tigana on the other hand is certainly adaptable...


Although I consider peak Kempes a tier above as a 9.5 (= Ballon d'Or level), this is the right overall choice, imo. The LAM position should work fine for Kempes, and Reus is exactly where he must play in a 4222.
It is a bit more ball carrying but Coluna was a very good passer/playmaker as well. Not really a Xavi or a Pirlo obviously but still a very good passer. Also, at the same time, its ideal against what Pat is trying here no? You need players who can evade the press here in central areas. And all 3 with be it their close control in tight spaces or physicality can evade the press and attack.
 
Also, I want to say this.

I love Reus and wanted us to buy him when we got Klopp. He was a class player. But he was nowhere close to what Kalle was.

Yeah he was mared by injuries which meant he never quite reached the heights he had shown initial potential at Gladbach and Dortmund but still.
 
Yeah. I don't understand the Kaltz criticism.

Especially considering the role he is playing here. Man was known for his marauding runs on the right flank and has been usually considered one of the best crossers from the full backs position. He was excellent at switching plays from deep as well.

Here's a compilation of him vs Madrid in European Cup semi finals.



Especially with Müller and Rummenigge to target, Kaltz is one of the best options to have as the RWB because he can offer genuine creativity and service from the flanks along with stretching the game.


yes thats one impressive performance where his draft popularity stands on, watched him roughly around 10 times more and never did i find him impressive....
 
Two great tactics with great fits.
My question for @Pat_Mustard is which version of Reus are you playing since you mention both his breakout season and his greater workrate later in his career?
For @The Red Viper with Gordillo an attacking left back how are you handling an that side with Kimmich, Hassler Reus all possible to overload right?

Well. That is where Ciro comes into equation.

Ferrara was quite adept at stepping out wide and defending against wide attackers and had experience at playing as a full-back. So he will cover for Gordillo and help him out.

As will Coluna who possessed great work-rate as well.
 
My personal favourite Reus was still at Mönchengladbach. I was watching quite a lot of Bundesliga in 2011/12 mostly because of him, he was untouchable. It probably wasn't the best version but it's the one I'm the most fond of.
 
yes thats one impressive performance where his draft popularity stands on, watched him roughly around 10 times more and never did i find him impressive....
What did you not like about him?

I mean even if you didn't like his overall play, you can't deny that his crossing was possibly S tier amongst full-backs.

Not an all-touch compilation but here's a sample of his playmaking and crossing vs Netherlands in 1980s Euros. Man was a chances creating machine for that Hamburg/German side.

 
My personal favourite Reus was still at Mönchengladbach. I was watching quite a lot of Bundesliga in 2011/12 mostly because of him, he was untouchable. It probably wasn't the best version but it's the one I'm the most fond of.
Feel like its a case with most of the footballers no?

We like/enjoy the raw and fearless version of these players. 2008-09 Messi was my absolute favourite to watch even though its probably not his best. Same with someone like a Cristiano. Even Suarez and Neymar etc for that matter as well. It feels like that once they're polished and become more "mature", we lose that unpredictability which makes football fun.

Feel like it applies to NBA as well.
 
What did you not like about him?

I mean even if you didn't like his overall play, you can't deny that his crossing was possibly S tier amongst full-backs.

Not an all-touch compilation but here's a sample of his playmaking and crossing vs Netherlands in 1980s Euros. Man was a chances creating machine for that Hamburg/German side.



yeah his kicking of the ball was special, reminds me a bit of trent(though not as bad defensive wise)....
pretty average defensive wise, athletic and physical atributes not that impressive and quite poor under pressure.

I mean he is good but easily the worst player on the pitch alongside kimmich.
 
yeah his kicking of the ball was special, reminds me a bit of trent(though not as bad defensive wise)....
pretty average defensive wise, athletic and physical atributes not that impressive and quite poor under pressure.

I mean he is good but easily the worst player on the pitch alongside kimmich.

I mean it depends on how he is used no?

Considering the formation I am using him in where he will have more freedom and the fact that I have Kopa who can create space and release him when he makes runs, he will get time and space on the ball to pump in crosses for Müller and Kalle.

Also, Kaltz was later years was obviously not as athletic and physical but during the mid and late 70s, he was quite physical. There was a reason Schön tried him as a sweeper for West Germany in 1978 to replace Beckenbauer. Here's KICKER regarding Kaltz:-

Only few might remember that Manfred Kaltz at the very beginning of his ‘international’ career (namely in the DFB youth team) already played stopper and sweeper under manager Herbert Widmayer, together with Kargus, two players that have gone a long way together. Calmness, vision, coolness, good technique and dangerousness in offensive actions especially over the right wing cannot fully conceal his raw point: his left foot is pretty weak. But he is dogged, strong at heading and has the luck that he is now partnered in the national team by Rolf Rüssmann, a stopper who complements him ideally. That being said, of course Franz Beckenbauer is not ‘forgotten’. His charisma and importance for German football is indelible. Therefore it was wise of Helmut Schön not to demand of Kaltz to copy Beckenbauer, to play like a second Beckenbauer. Kaltz does not copy Beckenbauer, he has his own style, not as glamourous and commanding, but he is already remarkably bold and assured. This assuredness he acquired as a full back. His most splendid game: how he neutralized Anderlecht’s superstar Rensenbrink in the Cup Winners Cup final. One may not forget this when he will go through a weaker phase, because he will not be measured against Franz Beckenbauer but against his performances in South America and that was an all too short episode, unable to fend off the fuelling of the slightest doubts should they arise. Among the Bundesliga liberos Kaltz’s position as no. 1 looks most clear, most likely Wittkamp, the seasoned one, could contest it, yet what speaks for Kaltz is his youth and thus the chance for a long-term development after the 1978 World Cup.

Anyway, my point is it really comes down to the set-up. I would have somewhat agreed with you had I been playing Kaltz as a RB in a 4-3-3 but especially in this current set-up, he is one of the best options one can have because he was a chances creating machine which is exactly what I require with Müller and Rummenigge and up-front.
 
Well. That is where Ciro comes into equation.

Ferrara was quite adept at stepping out wide and defending against wide attackers and had experience at playing as a full-back. So he will cover for Gordillo and help him out.

As will Coluna who possessed great work-rate as well.

That's fair, I wanted Ferrara myself but waited too long to grab him. I like him.
Good question. I'm opting for his post-injury peak around 2018. I didn't watch him every week like I did with, say, Scholes to be properly familiar with his development as a player, so I took the path of least resistance and searched Sphaero's posts about him (excellent Dortmund-supporting poster who disappeared several years ago). Here's a couple of his posts from 2018 regarding Reus:

That's also fair, I can see the greater defensive focused Reus helping your tactic out which is smart. I was just thinking the early peak Reus.

Neither of you are making this decision easier :lol:
 
That's fair, I wanted Ferrara myself but waited too long to grab him. I like him.


That's also fair, I can see the greater defensive focused Reus helping your tactic out which is smart. I was just thinking the early peak Reus.

Neither of you are making this decision easier :lol:

Yeah. I can understand. :lol:

Pat has a very good team.

But I feel like my front-3 of Müller, Rummenigge and Kopa will be the deciding factor ultimately.

You have one of the best playmakers ever in Kopa feeding arguably a Top-3 goalscorer ever in Gerd and then there's Rummenigge who was an outstanding supporting striker/forward.
 
Think Kaltz is sort of like the Beckham of fullbacks on the ball. Very safe and competent, with one of the greatest crossing ability, but not the most imaginative in coming central and combining with shorter passing, or that strong a dribbler. So it comes down to tactics and particularly what sort of forwards you have...do they want a lot of long, early'ish crosses into the box? If so, they're one of the best...direct aggressive/counterattacking play? great...if not, which was more the case for Beckham at Real and Kaltz when he didn't have the big tree Hrubesch to aim for, they're still really good players, but you can find better suited ones.
 
Went back and forth on this, and decided on a draw in the end. I see Pat's pressing side a little ahead collectively and for its ultra-aggressive approach, but then Müller/Rummenigge are exactly what you need to strike back in that kind of situation.
 
Good Game and Hard Luck, @Pat_Mustard .

Well played mate and good luck going forward. That's a really clean 3-5-2 you've built with top notch quality in attack.

Happy enough to bow out at this stage as I don't think I was going to make the team significantly better, beyond upgrades at FB and maybe Rodri or Voronin for Javi Martinez.