Biggest All-Time Draft - R1 - Pythagoras vs Ralaks

Who will win this game?

  • Total voters
    15
  • Poll closed .

Šjor Bepo

Wout is love, Wout is life; all hail Wout!
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Team Pytagoras

  • Tireless running from my fullbacks, offering excellent support both defensively and offensively with their overlapping runs and crosses.
  • All my midfielders guarantee intelligent movement and high workrate on and off the ball. Effective in both the inside and outside channels, breaking down the opposition’s attacks, probing for spaces through possession and able to execute direct passes and runs.
  • Stielike an all-round enforcer, who can also sit between the centrebacks and play vertical long balls.
  • Bernardo has the freedom to roam in midfield and attack on the right wing where he is comfortable.
  • Goal-machine Ronaldo complemented alongside the selfless and complete forward, Benzema, and fed by De Bruyne's accurate delivery.
  • Vidic, an elite tough stopper, plays alongside Perfumo, both a skilled man marker and libero, capable of initiating attacks from deep with his long passes.
  • Jennings' goalkeeping skills, ball handling and reactions are legendary, but his speed off his line and long throws will aid our quick counter attacks.
  • Our shape can change from 4-1-3-2 to 4-4-2 and 4-3-3 depending on our tactical phase: control through possession, falling back into our compact defensive blocks and springing dangerous counter attacks.


Team Ralaks

Attack:


  • Cantona leads the line as a complete forward, physically strong, excelling in creativity & hold-up play to bring Hazard & Laudrup into the box. Hazard uses his dribbling, burst of pace. Laudrup, the creative heartbeat of the team, unlocking defenses at will, for himself and others.
  • All three highly intelligent players, capable of rotating and maintaining fluidity. Hazard and Laudrup especially will thrive against slower defenders.
Midfield:


  • Kante, Scholes & Olsen provide a fantastic balance in midfield.
  • Scholes as the progressive 8, supporting attacks while maintaining defensive duties. Kante, in a similar role, but with more focus on defensive balance, adds relentless pressing & unrivalled ball-winning and underrated ball-carrying.
  • Olsen, a fantastic libero, provides defensive support and ball progression. Olsen’s experience as center back allows him to drop deeper when needed, using his speed, anticipation and tactical nous to track runners.
Defense:


  • Alaba and Zambrotta are both very adaptable full backs, providing width while supporting midfield and defense. Alaba’s experience as center back also enables him to reasonably step up and cover if needed.
  • Kompany and Ramos, two modern elite center-backs, combine physicality, leadership and progressive play, with Ramos offering experience against top forwards.
  • Kahn, a legendary goalkeeper with a commanding presence.
Other:


  • Set up as a 4-3-2-1 (Christmas tree formation), however it is considered dynamic and can turn into a more traditional 4-3-3, 4-4-2 (diamond) or 5-3-2 without substitutions depending on the flow of the game.
  • Aim at overloading the midfield to take control of the game, utilizing two number 10’s which are hard to nullify. The formation requires tactically and technically flexible players capable of rotation and understanding movement and works exceptionally well with a forward like Cantona to drop deep.
  • Strong set piece presence both defensively and offensively with Cantona, Ramos and Kompany providing excellent cover.
  • Leaders all over the pitch. Kahn, Ramos, Kompany, Cantona and Olsen are born vocal leaders, with Scholes & Kante are more lead by example
 
Interesting that we seemingly had very similar thoughts on formation, with the main difference being starting points of the front three! Good luck! I was very close to going the exact same with Haaland instead of Hazard..

I do think the battle will be fought in the middle and its a tough one. It's hard to make easy arguments for how to differentiate. I feel maybe my midfield is a bit more balanced to take control of this game, especially with Ronaldo not putting in his share. Even at his prime in Real Madrid he had a more defensively solid midfield behind him.

Also feel like Laudrup would relish behind Robertson who is arguably better forward than defensive, and together with Hazard use their quickness, which is Vidics (slight) weakness, but it's tough!

Looking forward to peoples thoughts!
 
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  • I don’t think Alaba, nor your central midfielders will help you enough in the outside channels. Your team will be very narrow, not many overlaps or overloads out wide, which suits our set-up as we our compact in our defensive shape. Scholes and Kante aren’t as effective in wider areas, whereas Lerby, Bernardo or De Bruyne will thrive there.
  • I fancy Ronaldo winning his battle against Sergio Ramos, a centreback with poor discipline, bad positional sense and guilty of reckless challenges.
  • I think Zanetti will have a better chance of keeping Hazard more quiet. He is an elite fullback defending wide or centrally when Hazard cuts inside.
  • Robertson is a two-way fullback. Yes, he’s the all-time leader in Premier League assists for a fullback, and famous for offering relentless overlapping runs and crosses, but Robertson was also a tough one on one defender. Robertson faired very well against skilled dribblers in both the Premier League and Champions League with his tenacity, recovery pace and interceptions.
  • All your three attackers want or need the ball, players working in the same zone who moved centrally, and are best suited playing with at least one runner to create space or a box target player to play off.
  • Ronaldo has a great defensive platform behind him: Vidic-Perfumo two tough defenders, Zanetti and Robertson two tireless ‘whole flank’ fullbacks. Stielike a tenacious midfielder who is comfortable playing in front of the defence or bringing the ball forward between the centrebacks, Lerby is a dynamic box to box midfielder with great defensive workrate and pitch coverage. De Bruyne and Bernardo are also workhorses in Pep’s team for ‘playmakers’ who don’t neglect their defensive duties, impressive off-ball workrate, then Benzema who will create space for Ronaldo, link up play for him, and do the off-ball work to get the best out of him.
 
oneniltothearsenal said:
@Pythagoras shouldn't DeBruyne be center and Bernardo on the right?
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In my head they dovetail, neither are fixed, always moving, looking for spaces, both with insane positional and tactical intelligence, giving me flexibility in their positioning. In terms of heat map on the pitch, Bernardo would be hot on the right when we are in our 4-3-3 shape, but more central when we are compact when defending/early build up. I could create a GIF to show their movement tomorrow if I have time.
 
Pythagoras's side is very well built although I'm not 100% sold on Stielike as a holder. I think he can play there but he was mostly either B2B or libero. I'd have no issues with him as the most defensive role in a double pivot.
 
  • I think you are being too harsh on the width, Alaba and Zambrotta are perfectly capable. Hazard will have tendency to drift left, where him and Alaba will shine together. Laudrup too will also flil some of the wider space opening up for Zambrotta. Sure Scholes and Kante are not as suited, but you are forgetting Hazard and Laudrup are also operating in those areas.
  • Both Hazard and Laudrup are well able to read the game, push wide, and in this case, pull Vidic out. Then Scholes, one of the best at this, will arrive late into the box, pouncing on cut back passes.
  • Ramos will manage Ronaldo, he has the physicality to match, and the personality too. Big game player.
  • Zanetti is great sure, but keeping Hazard quiet is not just some easy task. He is after all the player with the second most succesfull dribbles according to Opta since they began taking stats, just behind Messi. Even boasts a higher success rate than Messi. This will force him to be more conservative, severely limiting your width.
  • Robertson is not a two-way fullback, not sure where you got that from. Looking at the stats he is absolutely shocking compared to other full backs at defensive duties. Laudrup and Zambrotta will have a field day there. You hightlight his interceptions but he is well below average in that aspect. Vidic will lose a lot of focus / energy having to cover that side, drifting out, leaving room for midfield runners.
  • Cantona will work partially as the box target man, a role he is perfectly able to fill due to his technique and strength. Has fantastic hold up and passing.
  • It's not as great as you are making it out to be. De Bruyne ranks shite in all defensive aspects even when compared to winger/attacking mids. Essentially you'd be asking him to do something he is not used to nor good at. Silva is better, if you compare him to other wingers, however if you start comparing him to actual midfielders (which is what I assume you are playing him as?), he is similarly poor. You are laying a LOT on Lerby and Stielike, one of them is a proper defensive ancher, but the other is more a box-2-box, equally adept in both ends, who isn't really renowned for his spectactular defensive ability. Compare this to the midfield of Modric-Casemiro-Kroos behind Isco, unless 4-3-3, you can easily see they utilized a more defensive oriented midfield of 3 actual midfielders, not attacking midfielders to cover for Ronaldo's lack of work rate.
Edit: going to bed now, so won't respond until the morning!
 
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Too many cooks for Pythagoras.
 
More on my tactics

  • I don't think having Scholes and Kante as the "wide" players will hurt me at all. Some inspiration came from Carlo Ancelotti's Ac Milan of 2003-2007 where they reached 3 CL finals, winning two. Generally playing a 4-4-2 (diamond) or 4-3-2-1 formation with a combination of Gattuso, Seedorf and Ambrosini later on as the 8's. Neither are particularly known for their surging wing play, more hard working, which Scholes & Kante match. Similarly Hazard and Laudrup match and exceed any combinations of 10's they utilized over those years, or even combinations of 10's / forwards.
  • Stielike will be isolated in the midfield battle, with Lerby having to cover for Robertson's lack of defensive ability, effectively making it a uneven match up, I'll happily admit I don't know him to a full extend, but from what I can read he is not in the same mould as Casemiro, which I feel you would need to disrupt my play and protect your back four.
  • Looking at United's two champions league finals against Barca as well as several encounters against Torres clearly illustrates how Vidic does not fare well against more speedy opponents, often leading to fouls, bookings and red cards - 4 against Liverpool in particular, also puts a bit of a doubt over his positional sense when the odds are greatest. This is particularly why I went with Hazard over Haaland as Vidic would probably have it easier with a static striker compared to a tricky dribbler. Add Robertson's defensive liability here.
  • On the defensive side, Ramos is such a beast. Great anticipation, even better tackler. One of the most decorated centerbacks of all time - you don't get to that while not being a top tier defender, even if he has a nasty streak - which incidentally also in his favor sometime. I'd wager him having played with Ronaldo for many years, knows exactly when to push him, and make him go into the "frustrated-Ronaldo-mood", not the 'I'll-teach-you-Ronaldo-mood". Next to him Kompany matches Ronaldo physically and in the air easily, so he will not have an easy time.
 
Physiocrat said:
Pythagoras's side is very well built although I'm not 100% sold on Stielike as a holder. I think he can play there but he was mostly either B2B or libero. I'd have no issues with him as the most defensive role in a double pivot.
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Yeah, Stielike and Lerby in a double Pivot would've been interesting to see. With that said, they'd still be under a lot of pressure against Ralaks's midfield, which has taken a nice inspiration from Carlo Ancelotti's Christmas Tree. The big problem in his lineup is Sergio Ramos and how well protected he'll be, but it's not as bad as de Bruyne and Bernardo, both of whom work hard but don't have a good enough understanding of the midfield role to be able to plug the gaps and cut off the passing lanes. De Bruyne, too, would typically run himself to the ground in these sort of midfield roles and struggle to keep up over time. If he had a more hardworking attacking mid instead of Bernardo (someone like Seedorf, Häßler, or Gerrard), then he might have been better off.
 
@Ralaks Can you please explain how your front three will work? As I see it Hazard is the creative dribbler and Laudrup the passer so I would ideally want a striker who has good back to goal play plus can run in behind. Cantona has good back to goal play but. I'd normally want him to have more freedom. Am I missing something?
 
mazhar13 said:
Yeah, Stielike and Lerby in a double Pivot would've been interesting to see. With that said, they'd still be under a lot of pressure against Ralaks's midfield, which has taken a nice inspiration from Carlo Ancelotti's Christmas Tree. The big problem in his lineup is Sergio Ramos and how well protected he'll be, but it's not as bad as de Bruyne and Bernardo, both of whom work hard but don't have a good enough understanding of the midfield role to be able to plug the gaps and cut off the passing lanes. De Bruyne, too, would typically run himself to the ground in these sort of midfield roles and struggle to keep up over time. If he had a more hardworking attacking mid instead of Bernardo (someone like Seedorf, Häßler, or Gerrard), then he might have been better off.
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If it was De Bruyne left and Bernardo right with Stielike and Lerby centrally the plugging (a sort of 4222/442) plugging the gaps in midfield would be less of an issue.
 
Physiocrat said:
@Ralaks Can you please explain how your front three will work? As I see it Hazard is the creative dribbler and Laudrup the passer so I would ideally want a striker who has good back to goal play plus can run in behind. Cantona has good back to goal play but. I'd normally want him to have more freedom. Am I missing something?
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I think it's valid points. The way I see it, Cantona is of course the focal point, holding up the ball, laying it off for not only Hazard but also Laudrup, who is also very adept at timing his runs into the box. Laudrup has plenty of game intelligence to see his moments as a provider, a dribbler or a finisher. What Cantona lacks in pace, he makes up for in threat from range with powerful shots, i.e. forcing Vidic and Perfumo to also considering following him and not just the runners. Even if Laudrup is needed to be more of a dribbler if the game dictactes that, then Scholes or Olsen will provide plenty of service to Cantona.

Hope that makes some sense, currently and for the next couple of hours at a lecture so don't have much time to formulate!
 
Ralaks said:
I think it's valid points. The way I see it, Cantona is of course the focal point, holding up the ball, laying it off for not only Hazard but also Laudrup, who is also very adept at timing his runs into the box. Laudrup has plenty of game intelligence to see his moments as a provider, a dribbler or a finisher. What Cantona lacks in pace, he makes up for in threat from range with powerful shots, i.e. forcing Vidic and Perfumo to also considering following him and not just the runners. Even if Laudrup is needed to be more of a dribbler if the game dictactes that, then Scholes or Olsen will provide plenty of service to Cantona.

Hope that makes some sense, currently and for the next couple of hours at a lecture so don't have much time to formulate!
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Thanks for the reply. Will have more of a think.
 
Like Ralaks' front three. Every defence would hate playing against the sheer dribbling ability of Laudrup and Hazard. And I reckon Hazard would relish the chance to operate in a free-er attack with technical players on his wavelength.

Compelling routes to goal for Dunk as well - De Bruyne to Ronaldo keeps jumping out to me on the teamsheet.
 
Just want to say that - without ignoring his above-average proneness to mistakes - I find Sergio Ramos quite underrated on the Caf in general.
 
Gone for Pythag. I think his midfield is a bit lightweight but he has too many goals in him
 
Physiocrat said:
If it was De Bruyne left and Bernardo right with Stielike and Lerby centrally the plugging (a sort of 4222/442) plugging the gaps in midfield would be less of an issue.
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Yeah, that'd be better. I still don't know if de Bruyne would work as well on the left as he does on the right as he's not one to partake in dribbling. Bernardo Silva might be a better fit there, but overall, a 4-2-2-2 would work better.
 
mazhar13 said:
Yeah, that'd be better. I still don't know if de Bruyne would work as well on the left as he does on the right as he's not one to partake in dribbling. Bernardo Silva might be a better fit there, but overall, a 4-2-2-2 would work better.
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I think De Bruyne is best on the right but after researching it a while back he has played on the left quite often and City and was still excellent.
 
Bernardo could play on the left as well in such a 4222, I reckon. His trademark right-sided positions are more for inverted roles, which isn't what's needed there.
 
Wow, Pythagoras lost (you should blame that fancy new name). Or blame me, forgot to vote :boring: Happy to see Hazard/Cantona getting their recognition here (and I love Olsen pick as well), but I feel Pythagoras should have won this.
 
Pythagorean had a great team but Robertson? A real weak link and would be roasted by laudrup, plus he’s a cnut
 
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