Biggest All-Time Draft: QF - Prolifik vs Physio

[Physiocrat]

Prolifik

Physio

Prolifik Tactics

The objective here is to leverage our speed and athleticism to deny the opposition space when we don't have the ball, and to strike quickly and directly when we do. Our back line will play high up the pitch, anchored by the central pairing of Van Dijk (the perfect high line defender) and Mozer, who has the combination of pace and intelligence to thrive in this system, and backed up by an elite sweeper-keeper in Ter Stegen. Our midfield is now perfectly balanced with Rodri in the holding role, KDB adding the drive and directness, and Van Hanegem somewhere in between - he can play the simple pass and is very difficult to dispossess, but he's also a master at raking passes down the channels to spring the counter. He's also a tough, physical player who is willing to put a defensive shift in. The pressing starts from the front where Müller and Van Basten in particular are both tireless workers. With Lahm and Júnior at the two full-back positions and Rodri as the anchorman, we now have the pieces to play a more patient possession game if a transition opportunity doesn't immediately present itself. Both full-backs can step into midfield to aid in the build-up, or overlap Müller/Mbappé to provide width.

Physio Tactics

Tactics – Direct/ Mixed
Formation – 334 in possession/ 442 is the organised defensive phase
Defensive Line – Balanced
Marking – Zonal

Spoiler: A possible formation in possession

Frank Rijkaard is the key to providing an extra body in midfield during possession (out of possession he will drop into CB) and also frees up Cerezo to offer more going forward. Bozsik is in his favoured right-half position and will run the midfield. Rivaldo has a free role behind who Batistuta will enjoy excellent service from both Donadoni and Giggs.

Marzolini is regarded as the best Argentine left-back of all time and from all-touch comps is an astute defensive full-back for today’s standards so will fits this role very well. On the other side is the legendary Berti Vogts. In the centre is the legendary Elias Figueroa who kept peak Gerd Muller out of the goals in the 1974 World Cup. Keeping out the goals is the most complete goalkeeper ever, Manuel Neuer. His distribution here will be a great outlet for Giggs and Donandoni on the counter.

 

[Physiocrat]

@prolifik

 

[Physiocrat]

Prolifik has a very nice side but his left side is far from optimal. Junior liked to play as an inverted LB. If you watch all-touch comps he mostly does this and only occasionally goes on the overlap. This wouldn't be a problem except Mbappe will not hold the width on the left much at all and even if he was told to do so, he would likely ignore his manager. Further, since KDB is drifting rightwards as per the graphic WVH can't do much in the left channel. So either we have a lack of a left side, trying to force Mbappe to hold some width or have Junior try to play like Robertson or Marcelo.



A minor nitpick is Rodri, as Sjor mentioned in the past, Rodri's form improved when Stones played the hybrid CB/DM role. Rodri is more of a CM than a CM and he wouldn't be as good as he could be.

Edit - I really like Junior as a player, he just isn't best used here.

 

[Physiocrat]

On the positive side of my team, I think it's a more coherent side and Rivaldo and Batistuta will have an excellent platform to produce goals with the service and structure of the side.

MVB is the best striker on the pitch but Figueroa is the best defender (his performance against Gerd Muller in 74 is legendary). In this game I'd back Batistuta to have a better game vs Virgil than MVB.

@prolifik What shape are you going for in the organised defensive phase? 442, 451 or something else?

 

[prolifik]

On the positive side of my team, I think it's a more coherent side and Rivaldo and Batistuta will have an excellent platform to produce goals with the service and structure of the side.

MVB is the best striker on the pitch but Figueroa is the best defender (his performance against Gerd Muller in 74 is legendary). In this game I'd back Batistuta to have a better game vs Virgil than MVB.

@prolifik What shape are you going for in the organised defensive phase? 442, 451 or something else?

Müller provides defensive cover on the right. Van Hanegem supports Júnior on the left. It basically ends up as a 4-4-2 as Mbappé stays high and left-ish to provide a threat on the counter.

 

[Physiocrat]

Müller provides defensive cover on the right. Van Hanegem supports Júnior on the left. It basically ends up as a 4-4-2 as Mbappé stays high and left-ish to provide a threat on the counter.

That makes sense, except that means KDB is at CM in the defensive phase. He's an excellent presser but I don't ever remember him playing that deep and not sure he has the defensive nous to deal with my midfield and Rivaldo (obviously I don't think it's KDB alone against them , just that he's a weak link I can exploit).

 

[prolifik]

That makes sense, except that means KDB is at CM in the defensive phase. He's an excellent presser but I don't ever remember him playing that deep and not sure he has the defensive nous to deal with my midfield and Rivaldo (obviously I don't think it's KDB alone against them , just that he's a weak link I can exploit).

KDB has played pretty much every midfield position including as a CM in a two. In any case, we aren't relying as much on individuals as on our collective work-rate and tactical intelligence.

I'd also point out that since neither Vogts nor Marzolini are major overlapping threats, there's scope for Müller and Van Hanegem to play narrowly and provide more support in the midfield battle.

Rijkaard pushing up into midfield is a risky game given that Mbappé operates in that channel. If we win possession, any one of KDB, Van Hanegem, Van Basten, or even Van Dijk can play the killer pass to set Mbappé free on goal.

 

[Physiocrat]

KDB has played pretty much every midfield position including as a CM in a two. In any case, we aren't relying as much on individuals as on our collective work-rate and tactical intelligence.

When did he play in a midfield two and who against?

I'd also point out that since neither Vogts nor Marzolini are major overlapping threats, there's scope for Müller and Van Hanegem to play narrowly and provide more support in the midfield battle.

Rijkaard pushing up into midfield is a risky game given that Mbappé operates in that channel. If we win possession, any one of KDB, Van Hanegem, Van Basten, or even Van Dijk can play the killer pass to set Mbappé free on goal.

Since Marzolini and Vogts will form a back three in possession so Mbappe is well covered on the counter, I think he will have a hard time against Vogts and Figueroa. Also since Rijkaard goes to DM it gives it makes a sort of 352/334 so I don't see how Muller and van Hanegem can play narrow with Donadoni and Giggs wide. Plus Bozsik was a right-half and comfortable wider and Rivaldo is happy on either flank so I think my attacking flanks are well covered.

 

[prolifik]

When did he play in a midfield two and who against?



Since Marzolini and Vogts will form a back three in possession so Mbappe is well covered on the counter, I think he will have a hard time against Vogts and Figueroa. Also since Rijkaard goes to DM it gives it makes a sort of 352/334 so I don't see how Muller and van Hanegem can play narrow with Donadoni and Giggs wide. Plus Bozsik was a right-half and comfortable wider and Rivaldo is happy on either flank so I think my attacking flanks are well covered.

The only games I can find on such short notice are Belgium-Japan at World Cup 2018 and Belgium-Finland at Euro 2020.

My full-backs would be primarily responsible for covering Donadoni and Giggs, why would Müller and Van Hanegem defending narrow be a problem?

 

[Physiocrat]

The only games I can find on such short notice are Belgium-Japan at World Cup 2018 and Belgium-Finland at Euro 2020.

As I suspected, not against great opponents. My midfield plus Rivaldo are on a completely different level.

My full-backs would be primarily responsible for covering Donadoni and Giggs, why would Müller and Van Hanegem defending narrow be a problem?

I was pointing out that Donadoni and Giggs can have support out-wide without Vogts and Marzolini helping out. So leaving your full-backs to deal with them on their own might not be the best idea.

 

[prolifik]

As I suspected, not against great opponents. My midfield plus Rivaldo are on a completely different level.



I was pointing out that Donadoni and Giggs can have support out-wide without Vogts and Marzolini helping out. So leaving your full-backs to deal with them on their own might not be the best idea.

It's kind of a side issue though isn't it? You asked the question, and I came up with two games after a few minutes on Wikipedia.

Well we're defending with a bank of four so I'm sure we can deal with Bozsik or Rivaldo occasionally drifting wide. That's a lot easier than having to counter two genuine attacking threats from full-back like Lahm and Júnior for example.

 

[Physiocrat]

It's kind of a side issue though isn't it? You asked the question, and I came up with two games after a few minutes on Wikipedia.

Having KDB at CM when facing Cerezo, Bozsik and Rivaldo is not a side issue. He just isn't a CM. If he were at RM or LM I'd have no issues at all.

 

[prolifik]

Having KDB at CM when facing Cerezo, Bozsik and Rivaldo is not a side issue. He just isn't a CM. If he were at RM or LM I'd have no issues at all.

We are facing a team where the full-backs are essentially functioning as side CBs, and we have Müller and Van Hanegem defending narrowly to provide support. This is not an issue to me. I'll let the voters decide though.

 

[Physiocrat]

Well we're defending with a bank of four so I'm sure we can deal with Bozsik or Rivaldo occasionally drifting wide. That's a lot easier than having to counter two genuine attacking threats from full-back like Lahm and Júnior for example.

Junior is wasted here as I have clearly pointed out. He will be nowhere near his best with your dysfunctional left-side. Also unless you are putting both FB forward at the same time you will have the same numbers forward as I do. The question is how creative are those players in the forward positions. We have some very different style of players but I don't think it is obvious which side has more creativity on paper.

 

[Physiocrat]

I would like to hear any neutrals take on the game.

 

[Enigma_87]

Tough to separate as IMO both sides look good. Went with Pro because I don't really see Marzolini and Vogts in those roles, at least it should be different full backs taking that role.

A orthodox 4-4-2 would be much better to the players roles as you have Marzolini and Vogts in their native role supporting the wingers ahead of them. You have also Rijkaard who is just use him as a stopper in this setup as giving him the option to venture forward and step into midfield will open gaps on counter.

Muller and Mbappe are the type of forwards that operate at their best between the lines and they movement is key here. If instead of Marzolini/ Vogts was Carlos Alberto and Krol, or Bergomi or Cannavaro or even not that high end lcb who is cb first able to defend wide id buy the setup but currently I don’t see this being the best use of them. I’d just give them the option go provide support for the attack (not both the same time) and just keep the natural shape of defence/ midfield.

On Pro setup I’d probably just replace Junior with more attacking minded LB considering he has balanced Lahm on the other side. Setup and player roles I can buy .

 

[Physiocrat]

@Enigma_87 Thanks for your thoughts.

If I understand you correctly you think more wide CBs would be better for my setup rather than full-backs who can tuck in?

On Rijkaard stepping into DM, if I have a back three in possession how does that leave gaps on the counter more than Vogts supporting Donadoni near the oppositions penalty box?

 

[Himannv]

I agree regarding the tactical issues on the left. I'm also not sure if Donadoni is the best player to exploit it though. Geerally speaking I prefer prolifik's team but I've been flip flopping a bit due to the better tactical fit that Physio has.

 

[Physiocrat]

I agree regarding the tactical issues on the left.

Finally, someone else recognises it.

Prol has a good team though. Going forward if I were him I'd get a proper overlapping LB and put KDB at LCM and get another CM to play RCM who can play in a midfield 2, someone like Schuster would be good. Then when he goes 442 in the defensive phase he has someone experienced in the middle alongside Rodri.

 

[Enigma_87]

@Enigma_87 Thanks for your thoughts.

If I understand you correctly you think more wide CBs would be better for my setup rather than full-backs who can tuck in?

On Rijkaard stepping into DM, if I have a back three in possession how does that leave gaps on the counter more than Vogts supporting Donadoni near the oppositions penalty box?

Yeah, basically your possession setup looks more like 5-3-2 in possession where you would have CB's capable defending wide compared to tucked in full backs. In a sense it’s a good option for defending against Muller and Mbappe just wrong type of players. From what I’ve seen of Marzolini he’s old fashioned left back but I don't see him being a good fit for LCB. Same goes for Vogts. I'd prefer the Gvardiol, Ake, Akanji route if we're comparing to modern tactics.

Vogts also has a very nice cross and unless it's a man marking mission I'd rather him operating wide than tucking in. Naturally if that was Bergomi it would be different but I also don't really rate the on the ball quality of Vogts/ Marzolini in that set up if pressed.

Rijkaard tends to drift out of position when he's charging the opposition area and I'd rather use him as a CB especially when you have two CM's who are comfortable at taking the ball out of the defence.

I think you have a very good setup for a direct 4-4-2 with two balanced full backs and this just overcomplicates things. I also agree that if you don't overload the flanks (one of the positives in 4-4-2) it makes it easier for the opposition to defend.

 

[The Red Viper]

Tough to separate as IMO both sides look good. Went with Pro because I don't really see Marzolini and Vogts in those roles, at least it should be different full backs taking that role.

A orthodox 4-4-2 would be much better to the players roles as you have Marzolini and Vogts in their native role supporting the wingers ahead of them. You have also Rijkaard who is just use him as a stopper in this setup as giving him the option to venture forward and step into midfield will open gaps on counter.

Muller and Mbappe are the type of forwards that operate at their best between the lines and they movement is key here. If instead of Marzolini/ Vogts was Carlos Alberto and Krol, or Bergomi or Cannavaro or even not that high end lcb who is cb first able to defend wide id buy the setup but currently I don’t see this being the best use of them. I’d just give them the option go provide support for the attack (not both the same time) and just keep the natural shape of defence/ midfield.

On Pro setup I’d probably just replace Junior with more attacking minded LB considering he has balanced Lahm on the other side. Setup and player roles I can buy .

Yeah. I would say Physio lacked a bit more quality ultimately. Yes, Prolifik won't have natural width but like Himannv said a more attacking and direct RW instead of Donadoni and a bit better LB would have tilted the game in Physio's favour for me.

 

[oneniltothearsenal]

I voted for Physio myself. Thought Elias would be the game decider here. Vogts I think would limit any Mbappe influence and I don't really rate T. Muller in all time drafts. Bit too mercurial for me at this stage. Agree though that a better RW could probably have exploited that left flank of Prolif more than Donadoni, although he's a good tactical fit.

 

[Physiocrat]

I would have liked to have upgraded Donadoni but as Figo was blocked I couldn't get a better player who was a good tactical fit.

 

[The Red Viper]

I would have liked to have upgraded Donadoni but as Figo was blocked I couldn't get a better player who was a good tactical fit.

You didn't consider Robben at all?

 

[Physiocrat]

You didn't consider Robben at all?

Nope, because I wanted a more classic winger who would serve others and didn't need support from a full-back to be at his best. With Robben he's best suited to a 433 with a reasonably attacking, overlapping full-back.

 

[Šjor Bepo]

off all the things physio needs upgrading, an upgrade to donadoni is amongst last things he needs

 

[Physiocrat]

off all the things physio needs upgrading, an upgrade to donadoni is amongst last things he needs

I wanted Neeskens (I know you don't like him) but it was a cock up during RR do ended up with Cerezo. With Rijkaard at DM in possession though, it would have freed him up to be properly attacking.

 

[Gio]

I would have liked to have upgraded Donadoni but as Figo was blocked I couldn't get a better player who was a good tactical fit.

With Sjor that Donadoni was ideal here. Thought you upgraded fine really, Neeskens would've been nice, but Cerezo was class too, and Kante could have been a good option for a 442? Elsewhere perhaps Nilton for Marzolini, or Vidic/Vierchowod and Rijkaard into midfield (but then you're up against Van Basten/Mbappe so makes sense to stack the defence).

Whatever the choices, it all looked clean to me and plenty of synergies to make it all hang together.

 

[Physiocrat]

With Sjor that Donadoni was ideal here. Thought you upgraded fine really, Neeskens would've been nice, but Cerezo was class too, and Kante could have been a good option for a 442? Elsewhere perhaps Nilton for Marzolini, or Vidic/Vierchowod and Rijkaard into midfield (but then you're up against Van Basten/Mbappe so makes sense to stack the defence).

Whatever the choices, it all looked clean to me and plenty of synergies to make it all hang together.

I didn't consider Kante as I wanted a CM with more creativity and bite going forward. Nilton could have been a good option to replace Marzolini.

 

[Synco]

Didn't get to this for time constraints and preparing my own game, and the tactical discussion looked kind of complicated.

Totally agree that Donadoni is a very good fit here, he's a quality player.

The Junior argument is interesting - I also had the impression of a dedicated underlapper when I watched him. But at the same time, this may become some sort of cliché in itself.* I remember @harms saying that Junior's qualities in overlapping runs are underrated by now in the draft forum. Would love to hear more about the whole issue from people who watched enough full games.

* For example, one common assumption is that a LB who often does runs toward the center needs a true LW to provide width. But watching Grande Inter, with Facchetti this isn't accurate at all. Corso is probably the most positionally versatile player in that whole team, and pops up left, right, and center, high and deep. They simply don't have a positional play in possession as we expect it, but a seemingly quite improvised transition game. There probably are other patterns at work which I don't recognise, though.

 

[Physiocrat]

@Synco That's a fair assessment. I'm often guilty of rigid thinking when it comes to wide men and inverted full backs. However, it is the combo with Mbappe who is mainly a goalscorer rather than a creator that I thought was off. If he had Stoichkov for instance, it could work really well.

 

[Gio]

@Synco That's a fair assessment. I'm often guilty of rigid thinking when it comes to wide men and inverted full backs. However, it is the combo with Mbappe who is mainly a goalscorer rather than a creator that I thought was off. If he had Stoichkov for instance, it could work really well.

I get the point, but in fairness Mbappe is very creative as his 130 assists in his career so far show (more than Messi at the same point in his career).

On the occasions that Mbappe has played in a very wide role, he's immense at it because his acceleration and delivery are so elite. Obviously it's not really the best use of the best player in the world, but I think that's a separate point.

 

[Physiocrat]

I get the point, but in fairness Mbappe is very creative as his 130 assists in his career so far show (more than Messi at the same point in his career).

On the occasions that Mbappe has played in a very wide role, he's immense at it because his acceleration and delivery are so elite. Obviously it's not really the best use of the best player in the world, but I think that's a separate point.

Fair enough.

 

[Šjor Bepo]

I get the point, but in fairness Mbappe is very creative as his 130 assists in his career so far show (more than Messi at the same point in his career).

On the occasions that Mbappe has played in a very wide role, he's immense at it because his acceleration and delivery are so elite. Obviously it's not really the best use of the best player in the world, but I think that's a separate point.

assists have very little to do with creativity tbf, i was a fan of young mbappe and rate that pre contract version very highly but wouldnt call him creative(from 1-5 id say he was/is a 3)