Behind the Curtain draft (Eastern Europe) | QF | Raees vs Moby 8:6

Who will win based on all the players at their peaks?

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harms

Shining Star of Paektu Mountain
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@Raees _______________________________________________________ @Moby

The draft thread with lots of additional information
Write-ups on specific players

Raees

TACTICAL BLUEPRINT

4-2-1-2-1 built on the best defence in the draft, an all conquering midfield which contains 2 Ballon D'or winners (and the world's best midfielder of the 20's) and the lethal trio of Ivanov (Euro 1960/WC 1962 Golden Boot winner), Willimowski (10th highest goalscorer of all time/WC 1938 superstar) and Gundi up top (voted Bulgaria's all time best player ahead of Stoichkov).

4 KEY STRATEGIES

1. LIBERAL LEFT AND THE CONSERVATIVE RIGHT
  • To nullify Streltsov, it makes sense to utilise Stankovic's athleticism and defensive nous (Matthews rated him as the toughest full back he had faced even though he was 37 when he faced Matthews and by all accounts wasn't at his best in that game) to supplement that central defensive axis even further and have him close by as an insurance policy. He will go forward to provide width when necessary, and will play a very balanced role.
  • This will unleash the swashbuckling Demyanenko down the left flank, giving the side genuine width, where he can combine with the slaloming maestro Masopust to build up and wreak havoc from that side of the pitch. With the left back supplying the width, Willimowski is freed up to either stay out on the flank to interplay with these two and Albert, or come in with a diagonal run and get on the end of a cross or a through ball by Masopust/Albert. It will be a frightening prospect.
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2. WEAKNESSES AT RCB/LCB (WILLIMOWSKI AND IVANOV WILL FANCY THEMSELVES)
  • Shalamonov is a decent right back, but there is no record of him ever playing in central defence.. RCB is a completely different proposition. Also need I remind you, he was part of a defence which conceded in 1966, 2 v Brazil, 3 v Portugal, 3 v Hungary (Albert was in this side) and in 1970, 5 v Germany and 3 v Peru. Against every top class side, he's been part of a defence that got hammered pretty much. He is going to be up against a guy who tore apart Brazil's best defender of all time with his silky dribbling skills and outshone the likes of Leonidas Da Silva/Sarosi.. at the age of 21, playing in his best position. Not every right back has the ability to play at RCB, and to ask it of Shalamonov and expect him to take on a genuine attacking great like Willimowski is stretching the imagination too far.
  • Subotic is a classic case of Dortmund player playing above his means within that side but put into another side, looks all at sea and not capable of taking that step up. He is up against what is considered the most proven Russian attacker of all time in international competition, the mystery in an enigma Valentin Ivanov who scored goals in 1958 WC, Golden boot in Euro 1960, Golden Boot in WC 1962, and captained them to the Euro 1964 final. A very clever, Juan Mata style technically gifted classy left footed wing/inside forward but with more strength, speed and ambidextrous finishing ability. His awareness and sense of timing was impeccable. Subotic will struggle to keep tabs on his clever movement and hold the forte if Sammer goes on a lung busting run to assist the midfield, say if they're chasing the game.
Though he came in with high praise and even higher hopes, Subotić's initial performances for Serbia weren't stellar. Following unconvincing defensive displays and fairly frequent mistakes, he had to deal with plenty of criticism in the Serbian press.
Subotić's somewhat inconsistent form continued as he established a strong presence in central defence with Vidić, but also the duo's hesitant reaction to
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Milivoje Novaković's run off the ball led to Slovenian go-ahead goal.
As the qualifying resumed in late March 2011, Subotić got the start at home against Northern Ireland. Partnering Milan Biševac in central defence (on instead of injured Vidić), Subotić again had a shaky performance as the duo failed to properly deal with Chris Brunt's set piece cross that led to Gareth McAuley's headed goal.
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3. 'KADA' PESEK V STOJKOVIC
  • After seeing off Hagi, 'Kada' comes face to face with another gifted 10 in Stojkovic. It will be a brilliant duel, and they're both evenly matched. Santiago Bernabeu once stated that Pele, Di Stefano and Kada were the three best players he had ever seen.. now when you consider he was a defensive mid, one would have to conclude there are not many midfielders out there who would be better equipped to take on Stojkovic. Kada had bags of endurance, renowned for his astute reading of the game, peace of mind under pressure and immaculate tackling.. he had faced up to the likes of Sindelar in the mid to late 20's and came up trumps. Just to illustrate his influence, when the Czechs were the best nation in europe during the 1920's, his sheer presence ensured they won some big games:
  • CZE 6-1 YUG (KADA captain) 1921 vs CZE 3-4 YUG (KADA DNP) 1922
  • CZE 5-1 ITA (KADA captain)1923 vs CZE 1-1 ITA (KADA DNP) 1922
  • CZE 2-1 AUSTRIA (KADA captain) 1926 vs CZE 1-2 AUSTRIA (KADA DNP) 1926
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4. MATCH MADE IN HEAVEN - BEAUTIFULLY COMPLETE DUO OF ALBERT AND ASPARUHOV
  • Statuesque, pace, power, ambidextrous, vision, elegance, intelligence and the ability to destroy the best teams single-handedly.. you could say that about Albert or Aspurahov, yet despite their many similarities they are very different players. One is your archetypal playmaking deep lying forward and the other is your perfect number 9 and together they will be a force to behold.
  • Not sure if Netto will be CDM, but whoever he has on Albert will be run ragged and they'll have to be at their best to stop him running the show and Sammer won't be able to burst forward and risk Asparuhov running riot through the centre of that defence. His build up play as a side will be severely hampered by having to focus on curtailing that threat. That is one of the issues with having a 3-5-2, where he is heavily reliant on Sammer/Netto running the show but they're really needed here defensively.. whereas in my side, I have someone like Masopust who will be able to play his natural game and run the show.
Moby

The team is playing a 5 man defense, marshalled by one of the greatest sweepers of all time and the standout defender in the draft, Matthias Sammer. He will provide his talismanic leadership, organisation, reading of the game and the unbreakable mental toughness that brought him Ballon D'or, Euro 1996 win and the CL 1997 win. Not only will he provide an incredible shield in front of goal, but here he will have the freedom to join the midfield when on the ball and display his wonderful array of dribbling and passing skills to start instant counters and catch the opposition off guard. His presence at the back is invaluable.

Supporting him are the defenders Neven Subotić and Aleksandar Shalamanov. Both of them bring incredible physical presence to compliment Sammer and counter the opposition attack with their athleticism and work rate. Shalamanov was an olympic athlete and one of the best right backs of his generation, which will allow him to be an excellent cover when Srna makes his forward runs while not losing anything defensively. Similarly, Subotić reached CL finals and won Bundesligas while being the rock in defense for Dortmund next to Hummels, who is not that different from Sammer and would compliment him well here.

The key elements of this formation are the wingbacks, and here we have two of the best exponents of that role in Robert Jarni and Darijo Srna. Jarni dazzled the audiences at the 1998 WC when Croatia reached the semi finals. His energetic and tireless runs up and down the left flank were a huge component of that team and his crossing and final delivery in attack provided regular quality service for the forwards. On the other side, a club icon for Shakhtar, Srna has made his name as a world class right wing-back for over a decade now and his ability to play all along the right flank makes him a great fit for this role. His performances in the CL and Euros show his immense ability to perform on the biggest stage.

In midfield I have the Soviet midfielder Igor Netto who is one of the greatest players to come out of this region and one of the greatest midfielders in the history of the game. He combined tremendous technical ability along with phenomenal defensive work ethic, reading of the play and has the ability to dominate the midfield like few others. Here he will be playing in his element as the premier orchestrator and the driving force from midfield. Partnering him is the dynamic star of the 1994 World Cup, Krasimir Balakov who along with Stoichkov was the driving force behind the Bulgarian team that dominated that WC. In this team, Balakov will have the freedom to bomb forward from midfield with the ball and combine with the front three in attack providing quality service, goal threat and creativity while also having the tireless attitude and work rate to constantly be in the midfield battle. With Sammer supporting the midfield from the back, they will have the platform to dominate the game from the middle of the park.

In attack, the #10 is one of the most talented players of his generation and from this region of the world - Dragan Stojkovic. An absolute legend for his club and country, Piksi will be the creative fulcrum of this team, linking midfield and attack, distributing the ball out wide and threading it through to the forwards while dovetailing beautifully with the talent around him and bringing it all together.

In attack, arguably the greatest Soviet footballer of all time, Eduard Streltsov takes up the free role as a forward playing in his younger incarnation where he was an absolute force of nature physically combining blistering pace and strength with world class dribbling and control. His pace and explosiveness with Stojkovic playing him through will be devastating here. He was dubbed the Russian Pelé and his playing style and the career curve couldn't be more similar. Imagine the early 60s Santos Pelé here.

Leading the line is possibly the greatest striker in this draft and one of the greatest strikers ever, Sándor Kocsis. An integral part of the Mighty Magyars, he sports a phenomenal scoring record for his club and country. The Golden Head is known for his dominating aerial game and ruthless finishing, as well as his selfless teamwork and all round displays which were necessary for that Hungary team ethics as well as the team he is in here. His ability to create chances for others as well as bury the ones he gets on would create an incredible tandem with Streltsov and feed off beautifully from the array of creativity behind him. Not only does he basically guarantee a goal when he plays but he elevates those around him it will require a mammoth effort to keep him quite with the cast he's working with here. The delivery from those seasoned wingbacks will be a huge weapon to get his head at the end of the crosses.

Overall, the team has players who are well suited in their roles and played the same roles at a very high level often proving it by going deep into World Cups and other important competitions, My key players (Sammer, Streltsov, Kocsis, Stojkovic, Balakov) are all in their element here and would enjoy quality support from the rest of the team. The two wingbacks will be hugely important in stretching the pitch and being a notable presence in attack.

The ability on the ball runs from back to front with Sammer, Balakov, Stojkovic, Streltsov all being brilliant on the ball and there will be no shortage of service or quick transitions. We will look to play a highly dynamic style of play at a high tempo using the flying wingbacks and the explosive forward line to it's strength and not allowing the opposition any time to settle.

More of it in the game thread. Good luck Raees!
 
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"the polish midfielder Igor Netto", ffs :lol:
 
harms said:
"the polish midfielder Igor Netto", ffs :lol:
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Technical DQ already? happy with a walkthrough in all honesty. Harms can you remove the spacings between my paragraphs?
 
@harms .. regarding your subotic request, some further information.

Subotic's struggles with the national team

Borussia Dortmund defender Neven Subotic openly admitted that he was not able to replace Nemanja Vidic in the Serbian national team! Stalwart defender after another troubled performance in the uniform of the national team, against Northern Ireland, said that he was not at Vidićs level and that he never would ever be!

- I'm not a Nemanja Vidic! He's one of the best central defenders in the world, even in my opinion the best! Small I fish for him - said Subotic after the duel with a solid team of Northern Ireland.

A former member of the youth team of the United States will have another chance to prove himself in the national team as early as Wednesday, against South Korea. There is no doubt that Vidic in this meeting to play more than one half, so that Subotic will almost certainly be back in the team. A motive should be to him is the fact that the match will be played in London, so it will definitely be in the stands someone from Arsenal, maybe I Arsene Wenger. "The Gunners" are, in fact, recently expressed a willingness to spend as much as 17 million euros on bringing talented Serbian national team.

Subotic in Belfast came in the second half in place of Vidic and made a few mistakes that against a talented opponent would certainly have been fatal. Fortunately, thanks to clumsy attackers Northern Ireland and reflexes goalkeeper Bojan Isailovic, a victory of 1: 0 was still preserved.

Anyone who is even remotely understand in football after two matches, could see that Serbian national team "Eagles" without Vidic perform at least 30 percent lower. Subotic, honestly admits that the hole that occurs in our defense when no defender Manchester United can not patch .

- I have nothing to hide, now I can not replace Vidic so that his absence from the team does not feel. Still I am far from its level - explained Subotic.

Large mistakes Subotic has made almost every game in the jersey of the national team. On his debut against Romania in Constanta makes a foul after which the hosts reduced to 2: 1 in a friendly match against Sweden several times naive is out of the game, against Austria in Belgrade, after his mistakes striker Mark Janko guests hit the crossbar ... even against the Faroe Islands Subotic repeatedly swam into space, but it was pushed into the background since scored a beautiful goal.

However, as far as objections to Subotic's games were in place, young center can not be argued that it is not open. He says that without the injection of his dream that one day reach Vidićev level of the game.

- If you'd ever been as Vidic, it would be like a dream come true. I can only hope that one day I will be like him, a player of world caliber - admitted Subotic.

Despite all Subotic was pleased with his party against Northern Ireland, as well as the play of the entire team.

- We have played very well the entire match. The beginning was a little heavy, but as time went by, we were getting better - said Subotic.
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Mihajlović said, "Subotić missed the final friendly versus Ireland because of injury. He was supposed to start against Scotland, but out of the five training sessions we held leading up to the match, he did very poorly at two of them. I decided to give Biševac a chance in the match at Hampden Park and he was excellent. Then, before the Belgium match, I said a had two question marks over the starting lineup and one of them was if I should start Subotić. Now Biševac picked up a second yellow card of the qualifying, and Neven will start the next match in March versus Croatia, if he shows commitment in training, of course. It is now up to him to make that spot his again. Second part of the problem is that both Subotić and Nastasić aren't very vocal during matches, Biševac is the only one who talks and commands the back line. Neven is a very important player for us, and of course I'm counting on him, but these things happen – I had it happen to me as a player on occasion that a spot competitor on the squad makes the most of an opportunity coach gave him thus relegating me temporarily to the bench to wait for my next opportunity."
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Good defender for dortmund but in the context of this match, context of an all time eastern european draft and in the quarters, in a team which he is unfamiliar with and facing my attack.. I don't think you can say he is reliable at this level. He's not even made it as a regular international.
 
harms said:
2. WEAKNESSES AT RCB/LCB (WILLIMOWSKI AND IVANOV WILL FANCY THEMSELVES)
  • Shalamonov is a decent right back, but there is no record of him ever playing in central defence.. RCB is a completely different proposition. Also need I remind you, he was part of a defence which conceded in 1966, 2 v Brazil, 3 v Portugal, 3 v Hungary (Albert was in this side) and in 1970, 5 v Germany and 3 v Peru. Against every top class side, he's been part of a defence that got hammered pretty much. He is going to be up against a guy who tore apart Brazil's best defender of all time with his silky dribbling skills and outshone the likes of Leonidas Da Silva/Sarosi.. at the age of 21, playing in his best position. Not every right back has the ability to play at RCB, and to ask it of Shalamonov and expect him to take on a genuine attacking great like Willimowski is stretching the imagination too far.
  • Subotic is a classic case of Dortmund player playing above his means within that side but put into another side, looks all at sea and not capable of taking that step up. He is up against what is considered the most proven Russian attacker of all time in international competition, the mystery in an enigma Valentin Ivanov who scored goals in 1958 WC, Golden boot in Euro 1960, Golden Boot in WC 1962, and captained them to the Euro 1964 final. A very clever, Juan Mata style technically gifted classy left footed wing/inside forward but with more strength, speed and ambidextrous finishing ability. His awareness and sense of timing was impeccable. Subotic will struggle to keep tabs on his clever movement and hold the forte if Sammer goes on a lung busting run to assist the midfield, say if they're chasing the game.
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I'll elaborate more on them later but Shalamanov was a brilliant 1v1 defender, as shown by his stellar displays against the likes of Jairzinho and Eusebio. Back in that era, a highly defensively astute lateral defender is pretty much a perfect fit for the job here especially as he's going to deal a lot of 1v1 battles. He was an olympian athlete, strong and quick, tenacious and hard tackling who wouldn't allow you an inch in defense. He's got all the qualities you need from a stopper.

Next, Subotic, we are going by the peaks here and at his peak he won the Bundesliga twice and reached the CL final, while partnering a sweeper and being the foremost 'defender' in the team, keeping clean sheets against some top draw attacks.

But most importantly, you have completely forgotten that they have Jarni and Srna, both of whom are defenders and obviously no reason that they'll sit out during the defensive face. There'll be double teaming if necessary and that narrow attack will have very little space in that absolutely congested area.

Lastly, they have Sammer behind them sweeping anything that goes past them, and that's the best insurance policy you can get in this draft.
 
Raees said:
Good defender for dortmund but in the context of this match, context of an all time eastern european draft and in the quarters, in a team which he is unfamiliar with and facing my attack.. I don't think you can say he is reliable at this level. He's not even made it as a regular international.
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But again, we base the drafts on the player's peak, not based on his lesser years.

Combined with his achievements during his peak, the support he has from the wingback and an all time great sweeper behind him, he is an absolutely fine fit to do his job here. He isn't being asked to do the bulk of the defending or having to cover for other players, something he actually did against top quality attacks for Dortmund but he's provided ample support and would be working as a part of a 5 man defensive unit, he's more than good enough for a role like that, wouldnt have been the lynchpin of that Dortmund defense if he wasn't.
 
Moby said:
But again, we base the drafts on the player's peak, not based on his lesser years.

Combined with his achievements during his peak, the support he has from the wingback and an all time great sweeper behind him, he is an absolutely fine fit to do his job here. He isn't being asked to do the bulk of the defending or having to cover for other players, something he actually did against top quality attacks for Dortmund but he's provided ample support and would be working as a part of a 5 man defensive unit, he's more than good enough for a role like that, wouldnt have been the lynchpin of that Dortmund defense if he wasn't.
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Those quotes and articles I used are from his peak years before injury. Same time he was excelling for Dortmund and got called up to national team and struggled. Doesn't seem logical to exclude his national team performance when it is from the same time period?

He's a talented player but Dortmund players usually are. It is when they're out of their comfort zone, you can really assess just how good they really are and in international football he has been found wanting.
 
On the other hand, I can see Jarni and Srna having a lot of joy in this game. The narrow opposition would allow them a lot of space to bomb forward without having anyone track them back, and their crossing and aerial service landing on the head of Sandor Kocsis is going to be a massive weapon to handle.

Through Sammer, Netto, Balakov, Stojkovic and Streltsov the spine has an unbelievable array of creative and explosive blend along with the mental toughness and steel to balance it, and I can see them getting the hold of that area from back to front. With the wingbacks stretching play on either side, they'll create ample chances here and they have a GOAT goalscorer here to feed.

While the opposition defense is great, going by the defensive strategy, they would be outnumbered when my team has the ball and the wingbacks have gone forward. Stankovic cannot tuck in to help dealing with Streltsov when he has Jarni up his toes, and if Kada is dealing with Piksi, that's a 2v2 with Streltsov and Kocsis against his CBs :eek:, not realistic and would be resulting in an awful amount of clear cut chances. You need another body there to cover for them which isn't the case.

Similarly, I'm not sure if Albert is going to help much out defensively leaving Netto and Balakov against Masopust? That's just not going to end well.
 
Moby said:
On the other hand, I can see Jarni and Srna having a lot of joy in this game. The narrow opposition would allow them a lot of space to bomb forward without having anyone track them back, and their crossing and aerial service landing on the head of Sandor Kocsis is going to be a massive weapon to handle.

Through Sammer, Netto, Balakov, Stojkovic and Streltsov the spine has an unbelievable array of creative and explosive blend along with the mental toughness and steel to balance it, and I can see them getting the hold of that area from back to front. With the wingbacks stretching play on either side, they'll create ample chances here and they have a GOAT goalscorer here to feed.

While the opposition defense is great, going by the defensive strategy, they would be outnumbered when my team has the ball and the wingbacks have gone forward. Stankovic cannot tuck in to help dealing with Streltsov when he has Jarni up his toes, and if Kada is dealing with Piksi, that's a 2v2 with Streltsov and Kocsis against his CBs :eek:, not realistic and would be resulting in an awful amount of clear cut chances. You need another body there to cover for them which isn't the case.

Similarly, I'm not sure if Albert is going to help much out defensively leaving Netto and Balakov against Masopust? That's just not going to end well.
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If Jarni and Srna bomb forward, that leaves Willimowski v Shalamnov (out of position at RCB) and Aparuhov v Sammer which will not be an easy proposition for Sammer and Ivanov v Subotic.. That is not a good match-up for you, you will be exposed especially because Willimowski is dangerous dribbler and very aggressive runner with the ball, Asparuhov can beat players for fun too.. so it will be similar to that Bayern situation v MSN, where there are lots of 1 v 1 battles and attackers who can dribble thrive in that situation. You need those wing backs defensively because without them and with Alberts/Masopusts running power and passing ability, you will get done on the counter.

Secondly, Ivanov has the workrate to track Jarni, he's a very disciplined player.. typical Soviet soldier in that respect, and he will track back to ensure Stankovic tucks in to face Streltsov. I'd rather Ivanov comes back to help out than leave Streltsov 1 v 1 against a defender, we need Stankovic as security. Secondly it frees up Albert from defensive duties, and he can just come back to stop Netto from having easy passes but his focus will be on supporting Willimowski and Asparuhov on the counter.
 
Not to mention Sammer pushing forward into midfield, though not as forward as he did when he played as a young box to box but definitely as a DM during the offensive phase, and provide an option to recycle possession or start an attack from the back.

I was looking forward to a great battle between Netto and Masopust but to me it looks like the numbers game will get him here.

Putting Kada primarily on Piksi has opened quite a bit of space in midfield for me when I already had the upper hand in terms of bodies there and that's a huge advantage to have.

Even without that, it's difficult to see the opposition not get outnumbered in midfield and defense. It will either end up in leaving someone like Kocsis or Streltsov unmarked or no one being able to close down my wingbacks because they have to narrow down on the central attack there.

We don't have to look further than yesterday and see what a wingback left open (Alonso for Chelsea) can do to the opposition with quality targets in the middle engaging most of the opposition. Jarni is as seasoned in that role as you can ask for and his attacking impetus was mouth watering for Croatia and him running down the left flank in attack was a highlight of that great Croatian team.

Stankovic being instructed to help out with Streltsov opens up an entire highway for him, we have the long range passers at the back in Netto and Sammer, and delightfully gifted players in Stojkovic and Balakov in midfield who wouldn't be shy of picking him out constantly. Can see that being a really influential part of my team here and he'll be enjoying himself out there today.
 
Raees said:
If Jarni and Srna bomb forward, that leaves Willimowski v Shalamnov (out of position at RCB) and Aparuhov v Sammer which will not be an easy proposition for Sammer and Ivanov v Subotic..
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That's completely mixing up the defensive and attacking phases.

Wingbacks go forward when the team has the ball, return and defend when they don't, as always.

Sammer isn't going to mark Gundi and just follow him around all the time. He's a sweeper here and his job will be to cut the passes made to Gundi and read the game, something he was brilliant at and would be more than good enough to do here.

Your attack is a rather good fit for my defense as I have two wingbacks who are proper defenders and while having their respective wide CBs in support, they'll let little in.

Most of your play is likely to occur in front of my defense at a distance of 20 odd yards, there's very little space of isolating possibilities there to make any in-roads, and I'm happy to let you operate there with Sammer constantly sweeping out any passes that make it past the 4 in front of him, while as soon as we win the ball we will break with force and purpose with the wingbacks flying down the flanks and the transition, whether long or short, being absolutely swift and seamless through the middle.

In the scenarios mentioned above, the last man you want getting on the end of chances against outnumbered or out of position defense scattered around is the one leading the attack on my team, he guarantees goals and he'll score here.
 
Raees said:
Secondly, Ivanov has the workrate to track Jarni, he's a very disciplined player.. typical Soviet soldier in that respect, and he will track back to ensure Stankovic tucks in to face Streltsov.
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Even if he's a hard working player, the role you have given him here seems more of an inside forward than a wide midfielder, and he won't be able to get near Jarni while going against Subotic as you said at the same time. If you have him constantly tracking Jarni that will a) tire him out and decrease his offensive threat as the game goes on and b) constantly keep him near the flank and away from the threatening area near my goal. It's a bit like how LvG used Martial as a defensive wide presence at times, he was still able to get the ball and drive forward but he had to start a lot wider than deeper than what he would have preferred when he got the ball and it decreased his threat as he had more players to beat and more ground to cover. He's a completely different player when played at the edge of the box and provides far more threat. So it's a case of you can't have your cake and eat it too. All that is after we can say that Ivanov can match Jarni's engine and stamina in the first place.

If you have Ivanov tracking Jarni all the way back to the RB position then it would really be a waste of him as far as I can see and put a dent on your attack, that will definitely make things tougher for my team but I wouldn't say it's worth it.

And, in reality I wouldn't imagine him tracking him all the way back the whole game, he'll definitely have a lot of space at the end of that flank to himself especially with Stankovic now tucked in and with the quality of the players in the middle, with the constant movement of the front three ( all of them are mobile players who would drag defenders around) and the quality on the ball and service from behind, it's bound to find spaces inside that defense.

There was a big reason I prioritised those wingbacks early because I needed top drawer players in that position who would be influential in both phases of the game with meaningful contributions. It's easy to have wingbacks who would do a good job but here I've picked a pair that has seen careers of making things happen from that position, which is a great asset to have to complement that spine.
 
Moby said:
Even if he's a hard working player, the role you have given him here seems more of an inside forward than a wide midfielder, and he won't be able to get near Jarni while going against Subotic as you said at the same time. If you have him constantly tracking Jarni that will a) tire him out and decrease his offensive threat as the game goes on and b) constantly keep him near the flank and away from the threatening area near my goal. It's a bit like how LvG used Martial as a defensive wide presence at times, he was still able to get the ball and drive forward but he had to start a lot wider than deeper than what he would have preferred when he got the ball and it decreased his threat as he had more players to beat and more ground to cover. He's a completely different player when played at the edge of the box and provides far more threat. So it's a case of you can't have your cake and eat it too. All that is after we can say that Ivanov can match Jarni's engine and stamina in the first place.

If you have Ivanov tracking Jarni all the way back to the RB position then it would really be a waste of him as far as I can see and put a dent on your attack, that will definitely make things tougher for my team but I wouldn't say it's worth it.

And, in reality I wouldn't imagine him tracking him all the way back the whole game, he'll definitely have a lot of space at the end of that flank to himself especially with Stankovic now tucked in and with the quality of the players in the middle, with the constant movement of the front three ( all of them are mobile players who would drag defenders around) and the quality on the ball and service from behind, it's bound to find spaces inside that defense.

There was a big reason I prioritised those wingbacks early because I needed top drawer players in that position who would be influential in both phases of the game with meaningful contributions. It's easy to have wingbacks who would do a good job but here I've picked a pair that has seen careers of making things happen from that position, which is a great asset to have to complement that spine.
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Albert and Aspurahov are the ideal players for a side that needs to counter attack.. even if Ivanov tracks back, we have more than enough threat through the centre and down the left with Willimowski (who is the Martial type LWF we have) to counter. That is three players in attack all of whom are difficult to stop 1 v 1 and would need to be double marked to stay quiet. Just to illustrate their dribbling ability:

WILLIMOWSKI





GUNDI ASPARUHOV



[URL='https://imgflip.com/gif/1j0aba']



FLORIAN ALBERT

[URL='https://imgflip.com/gif/1j0ao2']
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I applaud the effort but I just don't see the point of such gifs.

You do know that all of Kocsis, Streltsov, Stojkovic etc literally have countless of such instance where the take the ball past a player right? Such a pointless exercise. It's one thing if it highlights a particular aspect of a player but what are we supposed to do with these gifs? You have a player who has taken the ball past a player in his career? Excellent!

That gif :lol: Thanks for not putting half of my team there, especially three players whose participation I detailed above in Balakov, Netto and Sammer. You will definitely win the game if you can magically make my entire midfield disappear. :lol:
 
Moby said:
I applaud the effort but I just don't see the point of such gifs.

You do know that all of Kocsis, Streltsov, Stojkovic etc literally have countless of such instance where the take the ball past a player right? Such a pointless exercise. It's one thing if it highlights a particular aspect of a player but what are we supposed to do with these gifs? You have a player who has taken the ball past a player in his career? Excellent!

That gif :lol: Thanks for not putting half of my team there, especially three players whose participation I detailed above in Balakov, Netto and Sammer. You will definitely win the game if you can magically make my entire midfield disappear. :lol:
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I don't really get your point there. Kocsis is renowned for his heading and finishing ability, he isn't renowned for his dribbling ability and therefore is reliant on service and crosses. He's not a donkey obviously not, but Asparuhov is more gifted in terms of dragging his team from a very defensive position and carrying an attack on his own shoulders, he has more flair in that respect. Hence the Gif highlights that and it is important that posters who are unfamiliar with him acknowledge that.

Secondly no one has doubted that Streltsov and Stojkovic are not maestro's on the ball, I didn't call that into question so you don't need to Gif to counteract that point because I know it and have set up accordingly. But you have said, my attack would be compromised with Ivanov tracking back.. the Gifs clearly prove that we have some in Albert one of the most gifted ball carriers of all time and a guy who takes two men on each time he dribbles with the ball. Willimowski hasn't just ripped past a mug, that is considered Brazil's greatest all time defender and surely much more of a challenge than Shalamnov, who is a right back (used to having centre backs covering for him, whereas at RCB you are exposed if a forward beats you who can then bear down on goal).

If Ivanov is tracking back, it makes no difference to a talent like Albert he can bomb on and turn defence into attack single-handedly. A picture paints a thousand words.

I like how everyone on your team seems to miraculously attack and defend in equal vigour, without no real set precise instructions relating to the game in hand. I've adapted my tactics to the opponents they're facing for example I am making Stankovic defend more in respect of the threat Streltsov faces, likewise Ivanov is tracking back. Whereas I feel your side has just been told to play off the cuff and it seems to have wing backs bombing up and down throughout which wouldn't reflect the reality of the game due to the threat posed by my side and likewise Sammer getting forward and contributing to attack, when in reality the threat posed by Gundi would mean he has to pretty much 95% stay in defence.

Likewise Netto who is defensive superior to Masopust but offensively weaker, is not really marking anyone down that side and that gives Masopust tons of space to get forward. That is a tactical weakness for your team not mine, because Masopust can do much more damage than Netto on the attack.

Finally I didn't put your midfield there, because that gif was about my defensive set up and it wasn't really about my counter-attacking threat so I didn't want to presume how you'd set up defensively. Of course you will have a midfield and it isn't going to be easy to beat. I rate Netto's defensive side of the game, he's class.
 
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Wasn't Balakov usually playing closer to the left side? And I always thought of him as more of an attacking midfielder (those long distance shots of his :drool:)

Still can't envision clearly how Raees' attack is going to work but his defence (probably the best in the draft at this point) and midfield (we can include Albert here) is flawless. Especially the defence - Shesternyov and Vasovic, with their physicality, intelligence, pace and aerial prowess are a fantastic fit for Moby's front two.

Really like the look of Moby's team but Subotic, Shalamanov and Balakov ruin the perfect picture, he's 3 players away from being basically unbeatable
 
Raees said:
I don't really get your point there. Kocsis is renowned for his heading and finishing ability, he isn't renowned for his dribbling ability and therefore is reliant on service and crosses.
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Those are definitely his strongest points, and he's an all time great, not just this in this pool but in the history of the game and he did it at the highest level. Similarly in the air he will come up as a winner against practically anyone when you can provide the service, which I definitely can. However, that doesn't take away from his all round ability, teamwork, selflessness, mobility and work ethic. Not only were those some of the most fundamental principles for that Hungary team in offense, that is the reason why I had set my eyes on him as an upgrade for Klose, I wouldn't have a poacher in there, and he clearly wasn't one. He'll have knock downs in the path of Streltsov and play him in plenty of times. Both will play brilliantly off each other here and that's as good a partnership you can ask for up front.

Raees said:
Hence the Gif highlights that and it is important that posters who are unfamiliar with him acknowledge that.
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I didn't really question that, and that doesn't change much for me. Those gifs don't show them in the situation and against the opposition they'll be in this game, hence serve little purpose here. If you really want to provide evidence, longer full match videos are better than moments plucked out of thin air. Youtube compilations are misleading enough to portray a player wrongly but these gifs just take the biscuit. Never ever found them useful in these drafts, always out of context and irrelevant. What you are here against is a rugged 5-man defense, composed of a sweeper organising and leading a back four which packs insane athleticism - Jarni, Srna, Subotic and the olympian Shalamanov, are all supreme athletes and have the ultimate leader in this draft, and one of the greatest leaders and defensive stalwarts ever in Sammer making the whole thing work as it should.

Sammer's winning mentality, putting everything on the line for the entire game, not letting an inch and inspiring everyone around him through sheer will and determination is a massive factor here, and will make the difference as it does often in real life situations. He's a Keano playing in defense, and he has the adequate supporting cast to impose his will on the game. He is my captain on the pitch, and I am relying on him to get the job done, by hook or by crook, he'll battle it out in any circumstances out there and that's why he was the second pick of this draft. What he brings to the pitch is immeasurable.

Raees said:
But you have said, my attack would be compromised with Ivanov tracking back..
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That really had little to do with questioning the ability of your other attacking players but simply making a basic point that would apply to any team ever is that if you take one of your attacking players who you have yourself argued is going to be giving my CB a constant duel for the game and simultaneously put him out on the touchline which is where Jarni is operating and have him operate as a right back - it will obviously make my defense have to deal with one person less a lot of the game. Relative to your initial attacking setup that is in the OP, that obviously weakens the attack and makes it even easier for me to defend against you.

Raees said:
If Ivanov is tracking back, it makes no difference to a talent like Albert he can bomb on and turn defence into attack single-handedly.
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Exactly, but it make a difference to your entire attack when you have one of your four attacking players shuttling around on the wing. Personally I think it is a poor tactic to use him that way, will be wasted out on the wing. Not to mentions it contradicts with your major part of the OP where you have him constantly on Subotic's heels.

Raees said:
I like how everyone on your team seems to miraculously attack and defend in equal vigour, without no real set precise instructions relating to the game in hand.
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That's untrue on my fronts. There's no miracle in a wingback to work in both phases of the game, especially one who did so and was integral in his team reaching a WC semi final in 1998, and almost made it to the final if it wasn't for Lilian fecking Thuram scoring two goals from defense. France won that WC but it was Croatia who were the highlight of that competition, they played some excellent dynamic football and did it effectively.

Jarni boasts tremendous stamina and engine required for his position. His attacking influence isn't limited to being an additional overlapping presence, conversely he is a wingback who can man an entire flank, be pin point with his delivery in attack, very efficient on the ball and open up spaces against tough defenders. On his own out in the open, he'll be a force in this match, and that is absolutely relative to your tactic of tucking in Stankovic, not a generic instruction. You've given him the space to influence the game, so you'll need to deal with that.

Similarly, I'm reaping the benefits of picking multi-faceted players like Sammer who made his name in world football and won the award of best player in Europe at his peak doing exactly what I'm asking him here. In fact, if you don't have him influencing the game on the ball then you are wasting him, not the other way round. His engine, stamina, tenacity and willingness to always be involved in the thick of it is unique and that's what makes him such an asset for the team. Me mentioning that he'd act as an auxiliary midfielder in the game is simply true to how he played and what he brings to the team, there's no miracle in that as it actually happened at the highest level when he was winning European Cups and European Championships.

That's anyway a standard characteristic of the formation I am playing. Wingbacks go up and down, the sweeper pushes forward to midfield on the ball while being the last line of defense while defending. It's absolutely standard, and I've not mentioned any other players being influential in both phases apart from Sammer and Jarni in particular as both of them given your team would have great games here. If you want to claim that I am arguing that for everyone in my team then please quote me. The rest of the team is more or less performing the jobs they are assigned.

That doesn't hide the fact that I have an air of completeness in my team which is always an edge over having limited players. Both my forwards can either create or score - and I'm not talking about random moments but actually doing it consistently at the highest level during their careers. In Igor Netto I have a complete all round midfielder who was brilliant on the ball - not in the same way as Masopust - but his offensive qualities fit my team better than Masopust would have. He boasts quality passing from midfield, and was technically one of the best midfielders of his generation, he hated giving the ball away and would provide the control in midfield rather than the explosiveness that Masopust brings. Similarly Sammer gives me a tremendous passing option from defense. Can you yourself not see him picking out Jarni or Srna time and again from the position? It's such an obvious play, nothing controversial whatsoever.

That's what the players were and there's nothing wrong in highlighting what they did. You have a complete midfielder in Masopust yourself and it would stupid of me to find you highlighting his all round ability and influence in both sides of the game as any exaggeration. It's what made him a great of the game, as was with Netto. If they had a 1v1 battle on the pitch, it would have been a great spectacle. Both given the tactics employed he'd often have to cover for other positions.

And let's not forget Balakov! This man was only second to Stoichkov in Bulgaria's fine run in 1994, and especially on the ball he would be an absolute force to reckon with. Which is why it was really misleading of you to remove both him and Netto from your graphic as they are the ones who would primarily occupy your 2 man midfield, while Stojkovic exploits the space between the lines. You will never have Masopust and Kada solely being able to concentrate on Stojkovic with these two present, like what you tried to pull off in that graphic.

Raees said:
Whereas I feel your side has just been told to play off the cuff and it seems to have wing backs bombing up and down throughout which wouldn't reflect the reality of the game due to the threat posed by my side and likewise Sammer getting forward and contributing to attack, when in reality the threat posed by Gundi would mean he has to pretty much 95% stay in defence.
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That would be true if they were completely limited players who wouldn't understand when they have the ball and when they don't.

You don't have any width to pin back my wingbacks, instead you have inside forward which is what I mentioned initially and what gives my wingbacks the freedom.
 
harms said:
Still can't envision clearly how Raees' attack is going to work but his defence (probably the best in the draft at this point) and midfield (we can include Albert here) is flawless. Especially the defence - Shesternyov and Vasovic, with their physicality, intelligence, pace and aerial prowess are a fantastic fit for Moby's front two.
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I can understand the importance of comparing teams on paper but it's his defense vs my attack and vice versa and tactics are just as important as names on paper. His defense is brilliant, and had I been playing a 4-2-3-1 or such a formation, I wouldn't have argued to have such an upper hand, but instead I'm stretching that back 4 with my wingbacks and have a front two with a #10 exploiting the middle, with a marauding Balakov making late runs and getting that shot away. :)

That's a tactical mismatch, and on paper I have Streltsov and Kocsis! They can dominate any defense, as great as it might be. And in a 2v2 they'll be creating chance after another. No manager in their right mind will leave those two or such a talented front 2 that has a #10 pulling the stings behind them without having a man covering for his defenders, in fact I have really wanted to mention that in the general draft thread. So many times you have arguments like 'X will be on Y' when that isn't how the defenses ever work. If you have a front two, you'd need your midfield to help you out or have a 3 man defense, or you are one dribble away from a goal.

And that is the reason he has Stankovic helping out, just his CBs won't be enough to defend against my front two and I completely appreciate that tactic from that point of view even if that means that Jarni is now free. So both from an ability and a tactical point of view I don't see how Streltsov and Kocsis are being dealt here. His defense is the best in the draft but that isn't the question here. The question is can it deal with my attack for the entire match?

harms said:
And I always thought of him as more of an attacking midfielder
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He's a CM-AM hybrid. In a regular formation I wouldn't have him in a two man midfield but I intentionally picked him here because I have a formation where he has a 5-man defense behind him and always partnered with a more defensive presence in Kasperszak earlier and now Netto. That gives him the freedom to operate in that hybrid role and make those late runs and join in the build up and transition while he has the workrate and tenacity to battle it out in the middle. If you divide into the two phases:

On the ball I expect him to be a creative presence, provide quick transitions especially out to the wingbacks and feed the ball to the attack with great precision and vision. Secondly his mobility will ensure that he will be available 25 or so yards out from goal (similar to what Herrera gives us when someone like Valencia or our attacking players lay it up from him when he's coming from midfield except that he's an abysmal shooter) and take some dangerous shots during the game. It's quite similar to the role he played for Bulgaria in 1994 where he played behind three attacking players, just like he is here.

Off the ball, he will be closing down the midfield and providing the first line of defense against the opposition. In this match, I can see Masopust dribbling past him as I wouldn't say that he would be able to stop such an efficient dribbler but he'll still put his foot in and stop him from time to time and at least give my defense time to organise at the back. Again, I am banking on his work rate and mobility as well as the gritty mentality to work it out.

harms said:
Really like the look of Moby's team but Subotic, Shalamanov and Balakov ruin the perfect picture, he's 3 players away from being basically unbeatable
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I can understand that on their own they aren't the greatest names (talking mainly about Subotic, as Shalamanov was rated as one of the best defenders of his era and on paper Balakov is one of the better players in the draft, easily) but you have to look at the role they are playing, who are they surrounded with and how much of an impact will they suffer from the opposition. Subotic excelled in Klopp's Dortmund where defense relied on teamwork, pressing, doubling up opposition quickly and cutting out the spaces. I'm not playing the Klopp press but quite a few of my players will happily fit in the philosophy. And my defensive tactic certainly isn't far off from that. Subotic partnered a sweeper like Hummels and they defended against the Madrids and Bayerns of their team successfully, it's what he's doing here.

As for Shalamanov, I'd happily play him in the final. He's such an ideal fit to complement Srna's forward forays and provide the qualities you want from a stopper. He isn't far from someone like Thuram who was a wonderful complete athlete, incredibly quick, strong, great at marking and reading the game, which made him a complete defender and allowed him to play out wide or in the middle. I'm not playing him as a CB in a 4-man defense, but as a later defender in a 5-man defense he's at home here and his incredible 1v1 defensive displays against the likes of Eusebio and Jairzinho are evidence of his physical stature and defensive nous. You need to be an absolute rock not to be shrugged off by someone like Eusebio and he held his own there.

The credentials are there. They fit in well tactically and have the attributes to see off the opposition they are facing.
 
harms said:
Still can't envision clearly how Raees' attack is going to work but his defence (probably the best in the draft at this point) and midfield (we can include Albert here) is flawless. Especially the defence - Shesternyov and Vasovic, with their physicality, intelligence, pace and aerial prowess are a fantastic fit for Moby's front two.
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Attack wise, you have the complete 9 (i.e. imagine younger Zlatan with pace). with a left wing/left inside forward type player like a Martial (striker/wide player hybrid) and Ivanov is like your hard-working Mata with elite finishing ability/movement.

My attack will be purposefully lopsided, favouring attacking down the left because most of my ball carriers are down that side, plus we can avoid Netto. Demyanenko drives forward, Masopust is down the left ala Pogba, and Albert is like having a Mkhitaryan through the centre but with nuclear powered running power and strength.
 
And @Raees you clearly didn't click on the link about Netto in my OP. Underestimate his offensive skills at your own peril.

“Igor Netto was definitely a player ahead of his time,” Joel Amorim, Spartak Moscow expert at Russian Football News says. “He was too talented to play on the left side of the defence or even as a wide midfielder, but he still turned out to be one of the most brilliant playmakers of all-time. He had a golden left foot and you still cannot find many players these days with his passing skills and incredible vision.”

Those are the qualities, exactly what I want from him in that position. An orchestrator from midfield, quality passing and vision with an incredible forward line ahead of him. One swing of his left foot can have a Sandor Kocsis running 1v1 at your keeper. Most importantly, he provides the control in midfield, the patience, the risk-free nature of his passing (he was renowned to have an incredible accuracy) and controlling the tempo of the game. That was why he was said to be ahead of his time. All that is in addition to his imposing defensive contribution and true leadership qualities.
 
Moby said:
And @Raees you clearly didn't click on the link about Netto in my OP. Underestimate his offensive skills at your own peril.

“Igor Netto was definitely a player ahead of his time,” Joel Amorim, Spartak Moscow expert at Russian Football News says. “He was too talented to play on the left side of the defence or even as a wide midfielder, but he still turned out to be one of the most brilliant playmakers of all-time. He had a golden left foot and you still cannot find many players these days with his passing skills and incredible vision.”

Those are the qualities, exactly what I want from him in that position. An orchestrator from midfield, quality passing and vision with an incredible forward line ahead of him. One swing of his left foot can have a Sandor Kocsis running 1v1 at your keeper. Most importantly, he provides the control in midfield, the patience, the risk-free nature of his passing (he was renowned to have an incredible accuracy) and controlling the tempo of the game. That was why he was said to be ahead of his time. All that is in addition to his imposing defensive contribution and true leadership qualities.
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I watched matches of Igor Netto before the game stated and he isn't this 'play-making' midfielder you make him out to be. He was a B2B general but it was his defensive game which was amazing. He had great anticipation, elegant tackling, swept up stuff and he could beat a man or two before releasing it with a simple pass. Whereas Masopust is definitely ahead of him in the game-controlling playmaking stakes. He had much more flair to his game and he's scored thrice as many goals in his career.

Netto is more like a Keane/Carrick hybrid, gifted yes, but more simple but efficient passer.. he isn't a virtuoso on the ball. He's actually a good fit there with Balakov slightly ahead, only issue is that Balakov is on the wrong side so they're not compatible in that sense but where you have Netto is bang on the money.
 
Raees said:
Attack wise, you have the complete 9 (i.e. imagine younger Zlatan with pace). with a left wing/left inside forward type player like a Martial (striker/wide player hybrid) and Ivanov is like your hard-working Mata with elite finishing ability/movement.

My attack will be purposefully lopsided, favouring attacking down the left because most of my ball carriers are down that side, plus we can avoid Netto. Demyanenko drives forward, Masopust is down the left ala Pogba, and Albert is like having a Mkhitaryan through the centre but with nuclear powered running power and strength.
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It's a well constructed attack but it's rather narrow and no one out of those 4 would get into my team in all honesty. Albert would be the closest shout but I prefer what Stojkovic provides to my team and they aren't far apart when both were at their peaks. Apart from that, Both Streltsov and Kocsis are a level above what you've fielded here, which is the same as saying your CBs are a level above my defenders, as they simply are.

Kocsis is arguably the best attacking player on the pitch. He is being supplied by an incredible supply chain from front to back and has two fantastic wingbacks providing service from out wide. He'll be a real decider here and the match winner you need against the sort of defense you have put out.
 
harms said:
Really like the look of Moby's team but Subotic, Shalamanov and Balakov ruin the perfect picture, he's 3 players away from being basically unbeatable
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Pretty much this.
Still doing little bits of research and then will vote, just have a question for @Raees . I thought Shesternyov was a sweeper, if thats true i dont really like the cb pair even though individually they are both great, tier 1 in this draft.
What surprised me though is that Kocsis was only 177 cm tall, for some reason i thought he was in the mid 80s:nervous:
 
Very tight game this.

Could go either way. Raess defence is better that's clear - the best in the draft at the moment.

With that being said tho Moby's attack is really, really good. It has a very nice blend of technical ability, pure clinical finisher in Kocsis, a lot of creativity and dynamism in Netto. Sammer also provides the defensive cover in midfield when he pushes forward.

I still don't like that CB pairing tho (Shalamanov/Subotic) especially at this stage, but the rest of the team is near perfect. Ultimately I can see Stojkovic being a decider here and have a great game and possibly Moby's team outscoring the opposition.
 
Šjor Bepo said:
Pretty much this.
Still doing little bits of research and then will vote, just have a question for @Raees . I thought Shesternyov was a sweeper, if thats true i dont really like the cb pair even though individually they are both great, tier 1 in this draft.
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I think it's an excellent pairing to be honest. Shesternyov is solid more old fashioned rugged defender, while Vashovic is excellent on the ball and can move vertically very well while Shesternyov plays in a more restricted in that sense role.

Wouldn't call it a Scirea/Baresi pairing but more of a complimenting partnership between two top class defenders.
 
Raees said:
hereas Masopust is definitely ahead of him in the game-controlling playmaking stakes. He had much more flair to his game and he's scored thrice as many goals in his career.
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Masopust is more explosive, a better dribbler and a better goalscorer, I've said so myself. What I just said was exactly what you said and falls in line with how Netto played. His simple and accurate passing, constant keeping the possession and recycling it with Sammer and Balakov around him and always playing the 'right' pass without wasting any time is what I need in my team that relies on quick transitions. Look at the current Chelsea team, they don't have elaborate playmakers but most of their players instantly play the ball forward and don't waste any time, and those passes while not hollywood Steven Gerrard passes are absolutely on point and before you know it's a 3v2 or 4v3 with the wingbacks joining in.

Especially as I am not having to break a parked bus and most of the time while I'm on the counter there'll be ample space to pass and all you need is an intelligent creative passer who will spot the right runner and pick the right pass.

That in addition to a concentrated and a focussed defensive presence is what I need first and foremost and he fits in well, as you said.
 
Enigma_87 said:
I think it's an excellent pairing to be honest. Shesternyov is solid more old fashioned rugged defender, while Vashovic is excellent on the ball and can move vertically very well while Shesternyov plays in a more restricted in that sense role.

Wouldn't call it a Scirea/Baresi pairing but more of a complimenting partnership between two top class defenders.
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Never watched Shesternyov and i dont know anything about him other then he has a reputation of being a great sweeper so im asking the question not making any statements :)
 
Moby said:
It's a well constructed attack but it's rather narrow and no one out of those 4 would get into my team in all honesty. Albert would be the closest shout but I prefer what Stojkovic provides to my team and they aren't far apart when both were at their peaks. Apart from that, Both Streltsov and Kocsis are a level above what you've fielded here, which is the same as saying your CBs are a level above my defenders, as they simply are.

Kocsis is arguably the best attacking player on the pitch. He is being supplied by an incredible supply chain from front to back and has two fantastic wingbacks providing service from out wide. He'll be a real decider here and the match winner you need against the sort of defense you have put out.
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Stojkovic Career Record

Club: 422 (125) 57 Goals of which were scored in the Japanese league
National: 84 (15)


Albert Career Record

Club: 351 (256)
National:75 (31)


Stojkovic is a good player, I rate him but sorry to say he is in the same class of Albert who is one of the most gifted footballers of all time is overrating him a tad. To say he would be a 'close shout' is an insult.

Streltsov is the best soviet attacker of all time, but in all fairness where is the competition aside from Blokhin? Willimowski comes from a country that has produced far more attacking greats and he lit up an international tournament scoring 4 goals in his only game against the WC semi finalists and goes on to score a hat-trick v Sarosi's Hungary. Seems to be both these guys never really got to test out their potential to the max, one because of the rape allegations and the other guy because of the second world war. To say one is definitively better than the other would be based on hearsay evidence, and in all fairness there is no evidence which would suggest one is definitely better than the other. It is just conjecture.

In the right set up of course Kocsis is rated a higher player than Asparuhov. But I don't think either of our sides suit a Kocsis.. great as he is, he's not really an all round threat. Your attack would have looked better with a Shevchenko. Asparuhov might be a lesser name but I need him here tactically, because like you mentioned.. my attack is narrow as is yours if your wing backs have to defend, and therefore I would prefer a striker with some unpredictability and magic.
 
Enigma_87 said:
Ultimately I can see Stojkovic being a decider here and have a great game and possibly Moby's team outscoring the opposition.
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This. :drool:

Stojkovic feeding Streltsov and Kocsis with the platform behind them is going to be near unstoppable if you consider all of them at their peak. I can't see even that excellent defense keeping them out.
 
Šjor Bepo said:
Never watched Shesternyov and i dont know anything about him other then he has a reputation of being a great sweeper so im asking the question not making any statements :)
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Aye, you are right in a sense that they are both sweepers, but IMO they compliment each other very well. Besides Vasovic played numerous roles in defence and also as a DM so he's versatile enough to make it work :)
 
Šjor Bepo said:
Pretty much this.
Still doing little bits of research and then will vote, just have a question for @Raees . I thought Shesternyov was a sweeper, if thats true i dont really like the cb pair even though individually they are both great, tier 1 in this draft.
What surprised me though is that Kocsis was only 177 cm tall, for some reason i thought he was in the mid 80s:nervous:
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Nah he's definitely not a sweeper like Vasovic or Sammer. Both of them are in another league on the ball. Shesternyov is that rare breed of athletic rugged defender who sweeps up defensive situations but also likes confronting attackers.. very complete defender but definitely a defender's defender rather than a wannabe midfielder like the other two. He was composed on the ball, passed it out efficiently but defending brilliantly is what he focused on first and foremost. He's more steel than silk.

I'll try and get some clips for you but in the mean time, you can watch the following full 90 mins of his games here:

http://footballia.net/players/albert-alekseevich-shesternev
 
Raees said:
Stojkovic is a good player, I rate him but sorry to say he is in the same class of Albert who is one of the most gifted footballers of all time is overrating him a tad. To say he would be a 'close shout' is an insult.
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To each his own.

Stojkovic obviously doesn't have the stats of Albert because injuries stopped him from continuing at his peak for a longer time in Europe. Which is why I said at their peaks, they are pretty much next to each other. Albert is more of a second striker which is why he has scored more as well but I need a creative #10 behind two top drawer forward who are both going to create and score and that is where I prefer Stojkovic. I have picked Albert before and in the right setup he's great but I'd argue that at his best he was a second striker and not someone you'd play behind 3 attacking players!. In that position you'd much rather have a third midfielder who'd help in midfield and provide more creativity than goal scoring, instead you have someone who would be a lot better in the position of Williamowski in your team then playing so far away from goal.

Even if you have Albert as the better of the two, I wouldn't say he'll be in his element the way Stojkovic would be in my team. Not only does he weaken you in the midfield battle but also doesn't provide all of what made him great.
 
Enigma_87 said:
I still don't like that CB pairing tho (Shalamanov/Subotic) especially at this stage, but the rest of the team is near perfect. Ultimately I can see Stojkovic being a decider here and have a great game and possibly Moby's team outscoring the opposition.
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Just on that point mate.. remember that Kocsis played for free-scoring teams in Honved, Hungary and Barca. Asparuhov had to play for Sofia and Bulgarian national team. Scoring records and ratios of the attacks below..

Kocsis 335 (296) NT 68 (75)
Streltsov 222 (98) NT 38 (25)
Stojkovic 422 (125) NT 84 (15)
Balakov 517 (132) NT 92 (16)
Netto 368 (36) NT 54 (4)

2200 (822) = 2.67 games per Goal

Albert - 351 (256) NT 75 (31)
Ivanov - 286 (124) NT 59 (26)
Asparuhov - 246 (150) NT 50 (19)
Willimowski - 554 goals is the conservative estimate by RSSF but ignoring that, if we go to pre war stats. 86 (112) NT 30 (34)
Masopust - 483 (98) NT 63 (10)

1666 (860) = 1.94 games per Goal

My attack might not seem shiny on paper but it is more penetrative and the records prove that. Then when you look at the respective defences that the attacks are up against.. I'd argue I am more likely to score.
 
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