Beer vs Wine Draft Final - BIG DUNK vs Gio

With players at their peak, who would win?


  • Total voters
    14
  • Poll closed .

Physiocrat

Has No Mates
Joined
Jun 29, 2010
Messages
9,566
BIG DUNK

hU4zrOk.png


Gio

Inter-5.png


BIG DUNK Tactics

Playstyle update: a further evolution is required to combat Gio's Grande Inter blueprint - we will need to disrupt their defensive line, creating and exploiting space. To achieve this, young Michael Laudrup is replaced with prime Johan Cruyff, in his peak false 9 role, now forming the famous 4-3-3. We still retain our all-action directness in possession: our improved press-and-possess style and limitless passing triangles enables us to employ swift and explosive transitions. We also aim to achieve territorial dominance through winning back possession higher up the pitch. If we do not regain possession after an initial press, we drop mid-block, in a tight and compact shape.

Key tactical notes: Johan Cruyff is my false 9, dragging Maldini and Scirea out of position, creating overloads in midfield, disrupting Gio's defensive structure and linking up play. Preben Elkjær is the marauding forward cutting in from the left wing, exploiting the space created by Cruyff. Elkjær's high workrate, dynamic dribbling and aggressive physicality made him a nightmare for low-block defences in Serie A between '84-'88. Pierre Littbarski stretches the opponent's defence and aims to pin Facchetti back with his direct dribbling, agile turns, changes of pace and quick feet (Facchetti's kryptonite). Thus, Facchetti's influence will be reduced, being Gio's key player in offering his team attacking width and support on the left. My attack remains fluid: forwards who can interchange positions, being effective in both outside and inside channels.

My midfield offers excellent support to both my defence and attack. They will create space through their constant movement (confusing Desailly, Luis Suárez and Iniesta), dropping, moving between the lines, interchanging positions, running into the space created by Cruyff, making overlapping and under-lapping runs with our fullbacks and wingforwards. Our midfield is the foundation upon we control the middle, dictate the tempo, transition effectively between the attacking and defensive phases and break down our opposition's attacks (possessing the necessary pressing tenacity and defensive quality to shut down Gio's counter attacks initiated by Suárez, Scirea and Baggio). Luis Suárez's creative influence in midfield will thus be reduced, who is vital for Gio's quick build-up play. Gio's lack of pressing will also allow the genius-creative likes of Beckenbauer and Cruyff more space and time on the ball, increasing our effective ball circulation and creation of penetrating vertical passes. Meanwhile Iniesta (more effective in a control/possession set-up) will look frustated in Gio's counter-attacking philosophy, deprived of the ball, time and space. Gio’s playmakers will be forced deeper, stifled by Neeskens’ kamikaze-pilot pressing. Moreover, Henry will look an isolated figure up top (deprived of progressive one-twos with Iniesta, long passes from Luis Suárez, minimized overlaps by Facchetti and through-balls from Baggio) left to run after long-ball scraps, that Beckenbauer will sweep up, covering both elite stoppers Berti Vogts and Jürgen Kohler.

Gio Tactics

IL GRANDE INTER BLUEPRINT

The team follows the tactical blueprint laid out by Helenio Herrera's Grande Inter side of the 1960s which won 3 Serie A titles, the European Cup twice in '64 and '65 and were runners-up in '67, as well as 2 intercontinental cups.

616653_F_C__Internazionale.jpg


The same shape and counter-attacking catenaccio is in play here.

Juventus and Italy's success in the late 1970s and early 1980s inspires the selection with Dino Zoff (Sarti) as a formidable presence in goals with club and country compatriot Geatano Scirea (Picchi) acting as libero ahead. He is flanked by the duo of Paulo Maldini (Guarneri) and Lillian Thuram (Burgnich). Ahead the rock Marcel Desailly (Bedin) shields the defence, and to his left Giacinto Facchetti is back in his familiar spot.

Taking command from the centre is Luis Suarez who takes on the same role as he did for Herrera's side. He is supported to his left by new addition Andres Iniesta (Corso) whose silky smooth work in central and inside-left areas provides both defensive solidity and sheer craft in possession. On the right is Bruno Conti (Jair) assuming a similar role to his Italy '82 heroics, bringing flank graft and sharp counter-attacking interplay in central areas.

In attack Roberto Baggio (Mazzola) is paired with Thierry Henry (Peiro). Contrasting threats as Henry stretches the defence with his pace and athleticism, while the diminutive Baggio weaves magic inbetween the lines.

Tactical points for the game:
  • The defensive strength of the team is arguably as good as it can get in this system. Maldini, Facchetti, Scirea, Desailly, Thuram are each the gold standard for their respective positions within this set-up. The Desailly and Thuram axis looks particularly robust in the areas that Cruyff will float around, while Maldini and Facchetti have the power to match up to Gullit.
  • Herrera argues his Grande Inter wasn't just defensive and, particularly when Suarez and Corso were available, was very progressive. At their peak in 64/65, they trounced Liverpool 3-0, Rangers 3-1 and Dinamo Bucharest 6-0, and scored 16 goals more than anyone else in Serie A. The short-game interplay of Iniesta, Suarez, Conti and Baggio will be very incisive as we progress out of defence and into attack. These will generate smooth transitions through midfield and into the opposition box.
  • Untold riches were available with the final piece of the Grande Inter jigsaw in the reinforcement window. However, in staying true to the blueprint and the spirit of the side, Thierry Henry gets the nod. He was the only elite forward available who both fitted the system as a supreme counter-attacker AND who put the needs of the team first. In keeping with Herrera's vision, the team is the star.
 
Elkjær and Laudrup were my previous strike partnership, but now Elkjær is utilised as a marauding forward cutting in from the left.

Here is the quintessential match-winning performance by Elkjær for Hellas Verona against Juventus:




Wearing the #11 shirt [not playing as a left winger, in 80s Serie A the supporting forward would play off the left wing (e.g Z. Boniek), while the #7 winger was the natural wide player (e.g B. Conti)], Elkjær was the marauding secondary striker, causing mayhem in the box and general chaos across the pitch.

- here we see Elkjær driving down the left wing and cutting in. Overlapped by leftback, Luciano Marangon: showing what a dual threat Irwin and Elkjær can be with their natural movements. Elkjær also liked to come inside and combine with central playmaker Antonio Di Gennaro for a quick pass and move.

- Elkjær also provided workrate on the opposite flank, proving a menace for Cabrini too [swapping flanks with right winger Pierino Fanna]: when Littsbarski swaps flanks, Elkjær can prove equally a nuisance for Facchetti when on the ball. Driving runs on both wings and offball workrate, even Elkjær's long throws from both sides disrupting Juve's shape.

- Scirea found it hard to control Elkjær, with Elkjær even following the Italian libero on one of his runs. Many of Juventus' players were very frustrated facing Elkjær, resorting to fouls (even Boniek flying in with late challenges), winning many free kicks against the bamboozled markers Luciano Favero and Stefano Pioli.
 
The two Johan's versus Inter's outdated catenaccio (a resounding victory for creative attacking football, press-and-pass style, fluid movement and exploitation of space):

Cruyff-


Neeskens-
 
All the best @BIG DUNK

Meanwhile Iniesta (more effective in a control/possession set-up) will look frustated in Gio's counter-attacking philosophy
The whole reason Iniesta was selected because he shone so brightly in both the possession-based dominance of Pep's Barcelona and then, equally, as part of a more transition and counter-based approach under Luis Enrique. The midfield was remodelled post-Xavi to become more robust and present a more vertical threat, with the all-rounder Rakitic introduced as part of that new approach.

What separates Iniesta is that he did not need to average 80-120 passes a game in order to influence games. His highest rated season by the sports media was under Enrique in 2015/16 when he averaged 65 passes per game. And if we compare Champions League campaigns, his lowest passing involvement at Barcelona was in 2014/15 when he averaged 57 passes per game. And that was the same season he stepped up in Xavi's absence for Barcelona, securing a treble and culminating in a man-of-the-match performance in the Champions League final.



Plenty of verticality, ball-winning and work rate there, allied with all the usual technical excellence and vision.

The other aspect to this is he will get on like a house on fire with Baggio in the hole (with his slippery Messi-esque movement and touches), and with Suarez and Conti inside. We can also see in the video above some of those telling through-balls in behind the opposition defence. With Henry to stretch onto those, he'll be in his element.
 
Many of Juventus' players were very frustrated facing Elkjær, resorting to fouls (even Boniek flying in with late challenges), winning many free kicks against the bamboozled markers Luciano Favero and Stefano Pioli.
With all due respect, they aren't Lillian Thuram and Paulo Maldini.
 
The two Johan's versus Inter's outdated catenaccio (a resounding victory for creative attacking football, press-and-pass style, fluid movement and exploitation of space)
Except we've got an entire defensive unit that played post Cruyff. Maldini was part of Sacchi's zonal system, Desailly and Thuram played zonally under Jacquet and Capello/Lippi. And who won the first World Cup after Holland faded from the international scene? Italy, with a very similarly shaped 352 and defensive principles. These things go in cycles.
 
dunk destroyed a great team, that midfield looks mad and all over the place....why did you bench your best midfielder ffs?
 
All the best @BIG DUNK


The whole reason Iniesta was selected because he shone so brightly in both the possession-based dominance of Pep's Barcelona and then, equally, as part of a more transition and counter-based approach under Luis Enrique. The midfield was remodelled post-Xavi to become more robust and present a more vertical threat, with the all-rounder Rakitic introduced as part of that new approach.

What separates Iniesta is that he did not need to average 80-120 passes a game in order to influence games. His highest rated season by the sports media was under Enrique in 2015/16 when he averaged 65 passes per game. And if we compare Champions League campaigns, his lowest passing involvement at Barcelona was in 2014/15 when he averaged 57 passes per game. And that was the same season he stepped up in Xavi's absence for Barcelona, securing a treble and culminating in a man-of-the-match performance in the Champions League final.



Plenty of verticality, ball-winning and work rate there, allied with all the usual technical excellence and vision.

The other aspect to this is he will get on like a house on fire with Baggio in the hole (with his slippery Messi-esque movement and touches), and with Suarez and Conti inside. We can also see in the video above some of those telling through-balls in behind the opposition defence. With Henry to stretch onto those, he'll be in his element.


Any idea, for instance, the average passes Modric had under Mourinho? I'm trying to gauge how direct 65 passes per game is.
 
dunk destroyed a great team, that midfield looks mad and all over the place....why did you bench your best midfielder ffs?
keane for any of the three and it works
Neeskens and Gullit are more effective in the outside channels in my 4-3-3 than Keane (Keane being my preferred option in the previous 4-4-2 central midfield partnership with Rijkaard). Their movement with my forwards is also important. IMO, it is not “mad”, 3 very complete midfielders who’d be excellent together. 3 mobile, balanced and intelligent players who would play great with Cruyff and Beckenbauer too.
 
Except we've got an entire defensive unit that played post Cruyff. Maldini was part of Sacchi's zonal system, Desailly and Thuram played zonally under Jacquet and Capello/Lippi. And who won the first World Cup after Holland faded from the international scene? Italy, with a very similarly shaped 352 and defensive principles. These things go in cycles.
But you aren’t playing Zona Mista/mixed zone/Sacchi pressing/Lippi setup.

You are playing:
IL GRANDE INTER BLUEPRINT
The team follows the tactical blueprint laid out by Helenio Herrera's Grande Inter side.
The same shape and counter-attacking catenaccio is in play here.”


The whole reason Iniesta was selected because he shone so brightly in both the possession-based dominance of Pep's Barcelona and then, equally, as part of a more transition and counter-based approach under Luis Enrique. The midfield was remodelled post-Xavi to become more robust and present a more vertical threat, with the all-rounder Rakitic introduced as part of that new approach.
IMO, he’ll do a job here but this would be using an out-of-prime version of Iniesta in a less optimal system for him.
 
I expected a different team from Big Dunk. This one falls short and is arguably worse than the one that featured in the previous round.
Not worse, just a different evolved set up to exploit Helenio Herrera’s tactics.

There was nothing to add to my previous team which I loved (XI vs Enigma), but thought I had the right squad pieces (plus the Johan Cruyff false nine reinforcement) to create the 4-3-3 for the final (my favourite formation).

It’s been fun creating a Frankenstein monster team each round with my versatile players (don’t think I’ve technically won a poll in normal time all draft, but appreciate the votes :)). Elkjaer is a player I will definitely use again.
 
Draft suicide from BD. I mean why? I don't really see any benefits in swapping Cruyff and Elkjaer and this is probably worse. Neeskens on the left is also debatable.

..Cruyff....Elkjaer ....Gullit
Keane .... Rijkaard... Neeskens

The practically builds itself. :(
 
IMO, he’ll do a job here but this would be using an out-of-prime version of Iniesta in a less optimal system for him.
I don't think it's an out-of-prime version - his highest media rated season was 2015/16 which was under Luis Enrique at the age of 31-32. That CL Final performance I shared was when he'd just turned 31. From what I saw of his career, he pretty much held the same brilliant level from 23 through to 32 or so.
 
Draft suicide from BD. I mean why? I don't really see any benefits in swapping Cruyff and Elkjaer and this is probably worse. Neeskens on the left is also debatable.

..Cruyff....Elkjaer ....Gullit
Keane .... Rijkaard... Neeskens

The practically builds itself. :(
In theory my front 6 would take this shape at times - as per my OP, Gullit joining the attack, Cruyff withdrawn/wide, Elkjaer cutting in, Littbarski joining the midfield...

No one has a fixed position, bar Rijkaard, who will work more centrally than Gullit and Neeskens.


My thoughts:
- We rarely see Cruyff in his best false 9 role in these drafts (usually as a free role winger, with another playmaking #10/striker in his space, which is not optimal).
- Looking at lots of footage of Littbarski, his ability to interchange and play in a front 3 or midfield 3 is impressive.
- Elkjaer was not a true central #9, better used attacking space, unsettling defenders across a back four, so an ideal complementary piece with Cruyff.
- this tie was about disrupting disciplined defensive lines and creating spaces in Gio's tight/deep shape: thus, I have included total footballers, versatile workhorses and technical wizards to help me do this. I would have loved to made some diagrams (with arrows) showing the full potential of this team.
 
Last edited:
In theory my front 6 would take this shape at times - as per my OP, Gullit joining the attack, Cruyff withdrawn/wide, Elkjaer cutting in, Littbarski joining the midfield...

No one has a fixed position, bar Rijkaard, who will be more centrally than Gullit and Neeskens.

Nothing wrong and I love Elkjaer. But still he's more suited to being the front man and Gullit and Cruyff as the creative supports. This works too, but isn't as natural.
 
I actually really like BD setup here. It is a bit crazy but there is fantastic workrate in the entire side to make it work. There is loads of creativity here that I think could unlock that seriously mean defence of Gio's. Also Neeskens over Keane makes sense for me as he is more adept wide left which is needed unless Irwin bombs forward a lot.
 
Last edited:
Neeskens and Gullit are more effective in the outside channels in my 4-3-3 than Keane (Keane being my preferred option in the previous 4-4-2 central midfield partnership with Rijkaard). Their movement with my forwards is also important. IMO, it is not “mad”, 3 very complete midfielders who’d be excellent together. 3 mobile, balanced and intelligent players who would play great with Cruyff and Beckenbauer too.

stopped buying Rijkaard as DM until i see it and so far whenever i watch he plays in a very free box2box role that is more offensive then defensive(no wonder Capello said he preferes Redondo defensive wise and Rijkaard offensive wise)! Whats worrying for the DM camp is that he doesnt look that impressive while defending, gets passed through fairly easily and people dribble past him fairly easily.

Pair him with Gullit(even if he played in midfield, its an attacking role) and Neeskens(very poor defensive wise) and its madness. Pair either two with older Keano cleaning behind two b2b midfielders and team is strolling through gio team.
 
I actually liked Vieri there more than I like Henry, controversially enough. There's just something about a huge target man up front that suits this set up perfectly.

I also would've liked to see something like a diamond/christmas tree from BD...
------- Elkjær (Gullit)
------ Cruyff (Gullit) --
Keane - Neeskens
------ Rijkaard -------
 
stopped buying Rijkaard as DM until i see it and so far whenever i watch he plays in a very free box2box role that is more offensive then defensive(no wonder Capello said he preferes Redondo defensive wise and Rijkaard offensive wise)! Whats worrying for the DM camp is that he doesnt look that impressive while defending, gets passed through fairly easily and people dribble past him fairly easily.

Pair him with Gullit(even if he played in midfield, its an attacking role) and Neeskens(very poor defensive wise) and its madness. Pair either two with older Keano cleaning behind two b2b midfielders and team is strolling through gio team.
Like this?
QARv6yu.png
 
Neeskens and Gullit are more effective in the outside channels in my 4-3-3 than Keane (Keane being my preferred option in the previous 4-4-2 central midfield partnership with Rijkaard). Their movement with my forwards is also important. IMO, it is not “mad”, 3 very complete midfielders who’d be excellent together. 3 mobile, balanced and intelligent players who would play great with Cruyff and Beckenbauer too.
I reckon an intense pressing approach to stifle dimunitive ball-players like Iniesta, Baggio, Conti and even Suarez is quite risky. Both Neeskens and Rijkaard would often dive in to gamble on winning the ball and leave big spaces in behind. That's not to say either were bad defensively* - it's simply a question of style/fit. Do that against Iniesta, or Baggio, and they'll be left with egg on their face. Those boys are kryptonite for big guys jumping in.

*worth a bigger debate - Rijkaard was really intelligent, read the flow of the game, and often adapted his position and role accordingly. He was very physical, athletic and could lunge in to proactively win the ball early. But sometimes he was passive and half-arsed off the ball. Neeskens could press high well and defended well imo in wider areas. I think his style suited the maelstrom of 1970s football when he could do a yellow/red tackle challenge and just be penalised with a harmless free-kick in midfield. I think he'd need to adapt to play a #6 role for example in the modern game, as it would be a long way from how he interpreted his midfield gigs in the 70s.
 
I actually liked Vieri there more than I like Henry, controversially enough. There's just something about a huge target man up front that suits this set up perfectly.

I also would've liked to see something like a diamond/christmas tree from BD...
------- Elkjær (Gullit)
------ Cruyff (Gullit) --
Keane - Neeskens
------ Rijkaard -------
To be honest if all of the pieces hadn't fallen into place in the back 9, we would have been quite happy keeping Vieri up top. He fits the theme and tactics perfectly, occupies centre-halves, can score heavily and different types of goals, etc.
 
Well-played Gio, that defence was nearly man for man my all-time dream back line, impenetrable all draft. I once drafted a Catenaccio/counter-attack back line of Bergomi-Scirea-Cannavaro-Maldini and Deschamps, but yours is certainly even better.
 
Well-played Gio, that defence was nearly man for man my all-time dream back line, impenetrable all draft. I once drafted a Catenaccio/counter-attack back line of Bergomi-Scirea-Cannavaro-Maldini and Deschamps, but yours is certainly even better.
Yes, Theon and I were mindful of that team when taking the same Serie A themed approach of building from the back.

Well drafted though, shows the strength of the squad that you could have the calibre of Robben and Keane on the bench.