Beer Draft SF: BIG DUNK vs Physio

With players at their peak, who would win?

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Physiocrat

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BIG DUNK

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Physio

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BIG DUNK Tactics

Playstyle update: our reinforcements add yet more fluid movement, versatility and an injection of high workrate. All-action direct football when in possession, employing swift and explosive transitions. Initial pressing when we lose possession, but in a deep and compact 4-4-2 when defending.

Key tactical notes: a fluid four-man attack, able to interchange positions and break between lines. Spearheaded by the aggressive Preben Elkjaer, a hardworking physical dynamo, supported by the elegant and magical playmaker Michael Laudrup, with Arjen Robben, an inverted winger on the right, and Gullit given a free-role on the left. My attackers will create space and chances for eachother, pulling their markers out of position. An abundance of explosive pace, power, dribbling technique and creativity to wreak havoc. In the centre are Roy Keane and Johan Neeskens. Two very dynamic and complete midfielders, effective in protecting my back line, blocking passing lanes, breaking down attacks, building up play and both creating and converting chances in the final third.

Danny McGrain and Denis Irwin offer overlapping support on the flanks, but McGrain will be the more conservative fullback. Gullit and Robben give defensive cover for my fullbacks. Both Gullit-Robben and Irwin-McGrain can swap wings. Elkjaer and Gullit will be targets in the box, on the receiving end of Irwin's and Robben's crosses. Franz Beckenbauer, my libero, offers a numerical advantage, combinations and overloads in every area of the pitch. His influence is maximised through the positional discipline and intelligence of his teammates. Jurgen Kohler is given man-marking duties. Both Gullit and Neeskens can drop into the midfield and defensive lines.

Further reading and viewing:
Laudrup-Elkjaer, the fantasy partnership:
https://thesefootballtimes.co/2018/...a-fantasy-partnership-devised-in-the-heavens/



Total footballer, Gullit:



The master of cutting inside, Robben:



All-action complete midfielder, Neeskens:
https://www.redcafe.net/threads/il-fenomeno-draft-r1-physio-vs-enigma.454630/#post-25539144


The greatest British right back… playing left back, Danny McGrain:



Excellent delivery from the left or right wing… Denis Irwin


Physio Tactics

Tactics – Direct/ Mixed
Formation – 4213
Defensive Line – Balanced
Marking – Zonal

Denis Law is playing largely as an inside right which allows him to come deeper and get more involved in the game as he preferred to do rather than being stuck up front. The width will be primarily then provided by Lahm who will play similar to a wing back as Briegel will be reserved. KDB will link with Barnes on the left (KDB is mostly known for liking the inside right channel but is comfortable wide left too), Bastian is his peak B2B self and Souness will hold the fort. To cap off the attack, we have the imperious Marco van Basten who will be more than happy with the supply from Barnes, KDB and Lahm.

I watched this video recently and it reminded me of how ridiculously complete van Basten was:

 
I think Big Dunk's midfield two doesn't really work that well. Neeskens is much more attacking than you would like in a 4231. I could see it working if McGrain and Irwin played as LCB and RCB in possession with Der Kaiser in midfield. As it is Neeskens will be asked to be too disciplined than he'd like. Also I think KDB will provide much more off the ball than Laudrup so I can see myself controlling that area to some extent.
 
I think there is enough defensive pedigree between Keane and Neeskens to screen the back four (when we are sitting deep), break up play in transition and win back the ball (when we are higher up the pitch or when we lose possession). There is no need for a sitting destroyer given your midfield trio. My playstyle has evolved to be more direct and fluid now (thus, more running, off-ball workrate and versatility was needed: I get that abundance in Gullit and Neeskens. Moreover, less sitting deep waiting for the counter, instead more aggression and movement). I have also seen Neeskens fill in at fullback, take the ball off the keeper, and protect his centrebacks (pro-active both halves of the pitch). Beckenbauer and Gullit will also be joining the middle of the pitch, so it’s not just 2 vs 3.

But if there is one stopper you want on van Basten it is Kohler. Their rivalry defined an era. Their was mutual respect and admiration of eachother.
 
BIG DUNK said:
I think there is enough defensive pedigree between Keane and Neeskens to screen the back four (when we are sitting deep), break up play in transition and win back the ball (when we are higher up the pitch or when we lose possession). There is no need for a sitting destroyer given your midfield trio. My playstyle has evolved to be more direct and fluid now (thus, more running, off-ball workrate and versatility was needed: I get that abundance in Gullit and Neeskens. Moreover, less sitting deep waiting for the counter, instead more aggression and movement). I have also seen Neeskens fill in at fullback, take the ball off the keeper, and protect his centrebacks (pro-active both halves of the pitch). Beckenbauer and Gullit will also be joining the middle of the pitch, so it’s not just 2 vs 3.

But if there is one stopper you want on van Basten it is Kohler. Their rivalry defined an era. Their was mutual respect and admiration of eachother.
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As for Gullit and Der Kaiser joining the midfield, I suspect you mean in possession. It makes sense for the der Kaiser to it but I would want Irwin restrained at that point. IF Gullit joined too you would be very narrow on the left unless Irwin advanced signifcantly which would leave you very open on the counter - it has a reward but it is also risky.

Also remember that Law and Barnes can drop centrally too. The key point is though that Laudrup is not consistent with off the ball work unlike KDB.

As you can see above MVB had a good record vs Kohler and especially with the supply here he will score goals. I also think I am better able to stretch the play width wise to create more space to score. I rewatched a lot of Robben recently and he really could go with a proper overlapping RB. 9/10 he cuts in at the box to shoot and rarely goes down the outside. I also think Gullit is less able to play the wide man role on the left without good support. I have no in principle objection to Gullit and Robben's roles, it just doesn't work to well with trying to accomodate der Kaiser at CB as they need different things.
 
Physiocrat said:
I think Big Dunk's midfield two doesn't really work that well. Neeskens is much more attacking than you would like in a 4231. I could see it working if McGrain and Irwin played as LCB and RCB in possession with Der Kaiser in midfield. As it is Neeskens will be asked to be too disciplined than he'd like. Also I think KDB will provide much more off the ball than Laudrup so I can see myself controlling that area to some extent.
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It doesn't work that well until you see Beckenbauer. With him playing his natural game Keane & Neeskens seem like a nice high-energy duo to help him out in midfield (where he's going to spend a lot of time regardless or not he starts out as a midfielder).
 
Our opponent lacks pace. Elkjaer, Gullit and Robben on the other hand will cause havoc (with bursting runs from my midfielders and Beckenbauer too, to break lines and penetrate half spaces). Pace needed to stretch your opponent’s team and get behind their back line.

McGrain a very good stopper fullback against a classic winger like Barnes. He is also very confident on the ball (a fullback happy to underlap and overlap with swagger like Breitner).

Your width is very dependent on Lahm whose high position will be exploited. Gullit/Irwin will look for the space (Gullit cutting in, free roaming, Irwin being an excellent overlapping fullback). Lahm’s optimal wing partner was a Robben-type inverted winger (who would have to play as a false-wingback sometimes). Is this Law’s most optimal position?
 
Physiocrat said:
As for Gullit and Der Kaiser joining the midfield, I suspect you mean in possession. It makes sense for the der Kaiser to it but I would want Irwin restrained at that point. IF Gullit joined too you would be very narrow on the left unless Irwin advanced signifcantly which would leave you very open on the counter - it has a reward but it is also risky.

Also remember that Law and Barnes can drop centrally too. The key point is though that Laudrup is not consistent with off the ball work unlike KDB.

As you can see above MVB had a good record vs Kohler and especially with the supply here he will score goals. I also think I am better able to stretch the play width wise to create more space to score. I rewatched a lot of Robben recently and he really could go with a proper overlapping RB. 9/10 he cuts in at the box to shoot and rarely goes down the outside. I also think Gullit is less able to play the wide man role on the left without good support. I have no in principle objection to Gullit and Robben's roles, it just doesn't work to well with trying to accomodate der Kaiser at CB as they need different things.
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Gullit/Laudrup/Beckenbauer won’t be joining centrally all at the same time (their positional sense, reading of the game and movement is genius level). We’ll have at least two players for each space of the pitch reminiscent of Pep’s City, with Beckenbauer allowing those overlaps and combinations. Our fullbacks and wingers love to swap flanks too (none of them are line hugging wide players).

IMO, Irwin, Robben, Elkjaer, Laudrup and Beckenbauer are great partners for Gullit’s free movement off the left.
 
harms said:
It doesn't work that well until you see Beckenbauer. With him playing his natural game Keane & Neeskens seem like a nice high-energy duo to help him out in midfield (where he's going to spend a lot of time regardless or not he starts out as a midfielder).
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If Big Dunk had relatively defensive full backs I would not mind that much, I just don't think it works too well when both widemen would suit quite a lot of support.
 
BIG DUNK said:
Our opYour width is very dependent on Lahm whose high position will be exploited. Gullit/Irwin will look for the space (Gullit cutting in, free roaming, Irwin being an excellent overlapping fullback). Lahm’s optimal wing partner was a Robben-type inverted winger (who would have to play as a false-wingback sometimes). Is this Law’s most optimal position?
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If I have time I will dig out a good Law video but he dropped deep and drifted wide all the time. He wanted to play like Di Stefano and Busby wanted him just to stay up front for the most part. I think he would excel as an inside-right here. I don't think Lahm's attacking brief is a problem here as Breigel is reserved so it ends up a big like a back 3 in possession (Forster played RCB in a back 5 quite often IIRC) and with Bastian and Souness in front I don't see that as particularly porous on the counter.
 
What helped Law/Di Stefano/Cruyff/Firmino/Messi in that withdrawn forward role is that right wingforward though (be it Best/Kopa/Rep/Salah/Pedro) I don’t think Lahm can fulfill this offensive role.

Law would be great in the modern 3-2-2-3 though, as one of the inside forwards. A central complete forward who would move wide, and have the freedom to move vertically up and down.
 
I'd rather BD played Litti and replaced Robben with Gullit. He certainly can play that role, but his natural style drifts him to Inside Right.

Good CBs but a better set would have given thin firmly in Physio's favor.

Leaning towards Physio slightly.
 
BIG DUNK said:
Law would be great in the modern 3-2-2-3 though, as one of the inside forwards. A central complete forward who would move wide, and have the freedom to move vertically up and down.
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I certainly agree with this.

BIG DUNK said:
What helped Law/Di Stefano/Cruyff/Firmino/Messi in that withdrawn forward role is that right wingforward though (be it Best/Kopa/Rep/Salah/Pedro) I don’t think Lahm can fulfill this offensive role.
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If Lahm had played in the 1980s he would have been a right-wing back. There is very little chance he would have been an RCB since the LCB and the RCB would have certainly been stoppers. I suppose he may have become a CM instead but in all likelihood it would have been RWB and he would have been brilliant. The only real difference here is that Law will start wide and cut in rather than being mostly central as he would in a 3412 which would actually make it easier for Lahm. Additionally, and this is minor Bastian can help out a bit in wider areas having started at RW and is clearly comfortable in wider areas when he transitioned to CM.

Again I would repeat that even if you don’t think Law is ideally suited to this role, neither is Gullit at LW nor is Robben without proper full-back support.
 
Neeskens and Danny McGrain will give Robben support (overlapping and underlapping).

Here is McGrain, giving a stalwart defensive performance while still aiding his outside forward and providing natural width.



Shutting down Madrid’s wingers with brute force yet still very clean, while still engaged in build up play, overlapping his teammate (McGrain had great vision and oversight of the whole pitch):




Moreover, Gullit isn’t playing as an LW, he has a free role from the left of that attacking four. Thus, interpreting where the space is, getting in the box for crosses, joining deep in the build up play, creating and dovetailing well with Elkjaer who wasn’t a natural #9 , he would harass centrebacks and fullbacks and run direct at them (creating space for Gullit).

Irwin is the perfect left back to overlap Gullit’s inside movement. Elkjaer is the perfect striker to complement his box runs. Now add Der Kaiser, Neeskens and Laudrup into the mix who would work in both the inside and outside channels.
 
Elkjaer is the irrepressible forward whose directness, workrate and aggression across the whole attacking third is key:



Where there is freedom there is elegant discipline though. For Elkjaer’s dynamite 100mph energy is matched with Laudrup’s graceful movement and languid playmaking. Gullit’s freedom and total football style is complemented by Robben’s simple, yet perfectly mastered cutting in. Beckenbauer’s creative freedom is partnered with the no-nonsense marking of Kohler. Neesken’s movement is complemented by Britain’s greatest enforcer Roy Keane, who balanced every midfield under Sir Alex.

Our team does have a superior blend and mix of pace, dynamism and movement.
 
…and we haven’t even talked about the best footballer on the pitch in detail yet.. Franz Beckenbauer:



Here are the complementary pieces I have built around him:

Kohler - the greatest stopper, who completes the perfect man-marker/ball-playing centreback partnership.

Laudrup - give Beckenbauer an elegant playmaker who can play intricate passes together with high football IQ and you get fantasy football. It would be poetry in motion seeing them combine.

Neeskens-Keane - very industrious and complete midfield duo, that will encourage Beckenbauer’s advances forward, while still dominating the spaces and winning the ball back quickly higher up the pitch. The duo would form a holy trinity with Der Kaiser.

Gullit-Elkjaer - the dynamic duo of my attacking quartet. Again, their intelligent movement, link-up play and finishing would be lethal in combination with Beckenbauer.

Irwin-McGrain - Beckenbauer will love playing alongside fullbacks comfortable with the ball at their feet. They are both solid two-way fullbacks too, neither limited or susceptible to nosebleeds in the opponent’s half.

Robben - injects further pace and directness from the right flank cutting in. Beckenbauer can play quick vertical passes to Robben, Elkjaer and Gullit on the counter, or horizontal switches to stretch the opponent.

Maier - completes the legendary partnership and comedic duo.
 
Well played and well argued @BIG DUNK

Going forward I really think you need to drop one of Laudrup, Gullit or Robben to get the best out of Beckenbauer or at least have one winger that doesn't need full-back support. Whilst your paired partnerships make sense in isolation I don't buy it as a whole. I mean I could be wrong and it could work like a dream but I reckon it might be a bit choppy in attack unless you go gung-ho and then you are open at the back. I might be overstating the case but wanted to get my thoughts down.
 
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