Beer Draft Final: BIG DUNK vs Enigma

With players at their peak, who would win?


  • Total voters
    12
  • Poll closed .

Physiocrat

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BIG DUNK

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Enigma

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BIG DUNK

Playstyle update: all-action direct football when in possession, employing swift and explosive transitions. Initial pressing when we lose possession, but in a deep and compact 4-4-2 when defending.

Key tactical notes: a fluid four-man attack, able to interchange positions, all effective in both outside and inside channels. Spearheaded by the aggressive Preben Elkjaer, a physical dynamo, who offers directness and high workrate across the whole attacking third; supported by the elegant and magical playmaker Michael Laudrup, who adds composure and control into the mix; with the mercurial Pierre Littbarski, an inverted winger on the left, and total footballer Ruud Gullit given a free-role on the right. My attackers will create space and chances for eachother, pulling their markers out of position. An abundance of explosive pace, power, dribbling technique and creativity to wreak havoc. In the centre are defensive rocks Roy Keane and Frank Rijkaard. Two very dynamic and complete midfielders, effective in protecting my back line, blocking passing lanes, breaking down attacks, connecting play and both creating and converting chances in the final third.

Berti Vogts is more conservative of my two fullbacks, with Denis Irwin offering more overlapping runs and crossing from the left flank. Littbarski and Gullit, adept on either wing and centrally can support my fullbacks defensively too, to combat the forward movements of Brehme and Lahm. Franz Beckenbauer, my libero, offers a numerical advantage, combinations and overloads in every area of the pitch. His influence is maximised through the positional discipline and intelligence of his teammates. Jurgen Kohler and Berti Vogts are both elite stoppers, given defensive assignments on Gerd Muller and Johan Cruyff respectively. Rijkaard can fulfill both a box-to-box and deeper role based on Beckenbauer's position, ensuring we are not outnumbered at the back when countered.

Enigma Tactics

Formation: 4-3-3
Style:
Based and build around Cruyff. Fluid, interchanging movement. Press the opposition and not allow them space and time on ball. Seek to make the pitch big when attacking, and small when defending, pressing opposition when they have possession.
Cruyff is in free role initially starting wide left. Brehme overlaps which allows him to tuck in and pull the strings in the opposition half. Kalle with constant movement through the lines provides goal threat and pulls defenders outside their comfort zone.

Defence:

Moore
bosses the defence in his natural role, paired with van Dijk forming a scary partnership at the back, as this is van Dijk before the injury having pace on the deck and really strong in challenge. Van Dijk has the physicality and space to keep up with Elkjaer and would more often than not mind him in the defensive phase. The flanks are occupied by Andy Brehme who is a very viable route to goal with his crossing for Muller and Kalle in the box. On the right we have the new acquisition - Philipp Lahm - one of the very best full backs in the modern game.

Pep Guardiola once declared Philipp Lahm “the most intelligent player” he’d ever trained. Coming from someone who at the time had coached the likes of Lionel Messi, Xavi Hernandez and Andes Iniesta, that was high praise.
The then Bayern Munich boss had transformed the full-back into a central midfielder orchestrating a possession-based system, a decision that revealed the extent of Lahm’s talent and tactical understanding.

However, it’s at full-back where he’ll be remembered and rightly so after revolutionising the role. His versatility allowed him to feature on either flank and was not only born out of his two-footedness but also his superior positional awareness.
With endless energy reserves, Lahm patrolled the length of the field like any good full-back but his ability to blend into midfield created a new dynamic and allowed him to have more influence on proceedings.

Lahm was a quality crosser of the ball and the cleanest of tacklers, ending his career without a single red card. A World Cup-winning captain with Germany, he won 21 trophies at Bayern but his greatness lay in his character and resolve. Slight of frame, Lahm showed big character, commanded respect and led by example. He was an understated genius.

What Lahm brings is yet another quality crosser out wide, but also one of the cleaners tacklers from the full back position and one of the most intelligent players too. A full back that Cruyff would love due to his versatility, reading of the game and ability to blend in many positions from the back and in midfield.

Midfield:
Bernd Schuster
is in deep playmaking role, initiating the attacks from deep and in playing in a holding role in front of the defence. Alongside him is Davids who plays his natural defensive box to box role. Robson is also in his favorite box to box role with his late runs also providing nuisance for the opposition defence. Robson and Davids are also well capable of defending wide and helping out the full backs where the opposition main strengths in attack lie, but also keep in compact in the middle if Beckenbauer storms through.

Attack:
Spearheading the attack is probably the greatest #9 in the game - Gerd Muller. A matchwinner on his own he is accompanied by our other new addition - Kalle Rummenigge who shares some of the traits Thomas Muller offered in our last game and more. Kalle will use his ghosting movement and scoring ability to get his name on the scoresheet but also his versatility, work rate and ability to press the opposition blends into the overall mechanics of the team.

Named as the European Footballer of the Year twice in 1980 and 81, the German forward helped Bayern conquer Europe in two consecutive seasons in the mid-70s. Kalle was a killer in front of the goal as he had the technique to execute different types of finishes.

His blistering speed was an added bonus to his vast skill set that helped him score over 200 goals during his time at Bayern. In the domestic tournaments, Rummenigge won two league titles and two DFB-Pokals between 1980 and 1984, which saw him become the top scorer in the Bundesliga for three years during this period.

 
Probably unsurprisingly I really like the changes @BIG DUNK Far more balanced all round. Der Kaiser would work really well in this setup.
 
Tbh I liked BD setup better last game and whilst Rijkaard is an upgrade on Neeskens I don’t really get Robben getting subbed off especially with the new setup where his pace and directness would’ve suited the team a lot better.

I get that Litti is also great dribbler and suits the setup as well but IMO Robben is easily better and the more dangerous player in space.

on Rijkaard his usual game is close to Neeskens as defensive B2B, and it’s more of a like for like upgrade as Rijkaard also ventured forward and left space behind whilst also pressed high and sometimes eliminated by press resistant midfielders like Schuster. Sacchi’s team also relied on high press much like Cruyff total football so whilst @Physiocrat concerns were addressed with individually better player the mechanics might not be different if it’s 4-4-2 in the defensive shape as it’s how Sacchi Milan usually shapes up the same and Beckenbauer is more explosive libero than Baresi.

Lastly I don’t think two man mark assignments work well in this game (Kohler and Vogts on Muller and Cruyff) because both will be roaming in space pulling the shape and disrupting the line. I’m not sure I’ve seen a working example in this in real life as most of the time you only have one defensive assignment on the opposition best player. Especially with Kalle and Robson also providing a significant goal threat coming from deep in a disrupted line.
 
Littbarski is chosen for this tie, joining the attack. Here is just one example of Littbarski showcasing his full ability:



1) two accurate assists from the left (pinpoint cross + cut back): a great provider for Elkjaer and Gullit who will be charging into the box.
2) movement across the whole pitch (both flanks, centrally and deep): in build up play and when we are attacking we encourage interchanging of positions and fluid movement. Combining with other playmakers .
3) supporting his fullback (following his man back to his own half, never letting his fullback be exposed) Irwin/Vogts will have similar protection.
4) direct dribbling style (turning midfielders inside out and pulling out defenders): he’ll give Lahm the longest 90.
5) incisive through balls: Elkjaer and Gullit can also be fed with direct vertical passes, cutting through lines, and over the top running on to goal.
6) pressing high and winning back possession higher up the pitch
 
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Lastly I don’t think two man mark assignments work well in this game (Kohler and Vogts on Muller and Cruyff) because both will be roaming in space pulling the shape and disrupting the line. I’m not sure I’ve seen a working example in this in real life as most of the time you only have one defensive assignment on the opposition best player. Especially with Kalle and Robson also providing a significant goal threat coming from deep in a disrupted line.
Vogts + Kohler won’t be man-marking catenaccio style (following them all the way to the changing rooms), their defensive assignment will be more modern zonal mix defending. Even in Vogts’ and Cruyff’s historic match-up in ‘74, Der Terrier knew when to go man-to-man and when to defend the zone (as Cruyff was too quick), but Vogts’ positioning and reading were expert. Kohler too, terrific stopper (perhaps the best) but efficient in both low block, zone and man to man. The back four line will also be expertly led by Beckenbauer.

When defending after an initial press, solid & compact two banks of four:

Littbarski - Keane - Rijkaard - Gullit
Irwin - Kohler - Beckenbauer - Vogts​
 
@Physiocrat concerns were addressed with individually better player the mechanics might not be different

Possibly but Littbarski on the left and Gullit on the right will do much better with less support than Gullit left and Robben right which allows Der Kaiser more freedom without sacrificing defensively solidity.
 
Enigma Tactics

Style:
Based and build around Cruyff. Fluid, interchanging movement. Press the opposition and not allow them space and time on ball. Seek to make the pitch big when attacking, and small when defending, pressing opposition when they have possession.
I’m unsure if this team is actually built perfectly for Cruyff. Perhaps more of a counter attack set up, than hard/high pressing and fluidity across the whole pitch (your defenders + Schuster famous for their long vertical passes). I see Schuster as your Netzer. Heynckes would be great on the left.



Why Rijkaard is an ungrade over Neeskens:

- doesn’t lose out on full pitch coverage but now superior positioning, reading of game and more intelligent runs.
- superior long passes (Rijkaard basically both a deep lying playmaker and box to box dynamo). Punting the ball upfield for Elkjaer and Gullit to run on to :drool:
- superior positional relationship with Beckenbauer (combinations centrally + cover at back)
- allows Keane to have more box to box influence (as he would have been more disciplined alongside Neeskens).
- Rijkaard also familiar with advanced pressing (Sacchi’s highly evolved press) and also one of the greatest 4-4-2 midfielders. Keane is one of the greatest 4-4-2 midfielders too.
- natural chemistry with Gullit
 
Possibly but Littbarski on the left and Gullit on the right will do much better with less support than Gullit left and Robben right which allows Der Kaiser more freedom without sacrificing defensively solidity.
Yes, I did concede (off-thread :D) about your point and Edgar’s. This team should be about getting the best out of Franz Beckenbauer, my best player (surrounding him with the defensive likes of Kohler, Vogts, Rijkaard and Keane, and the offensive talents of Laudrup, Gullit, Littbarski and Elkjaer maximises him fully). Der Kaiser has a solid defensive base behind him, allowing him to fully express himself forward creatively, combining with highly-technical playmakers and physical specimens up top.

I did not what to use my two reinforcement picks on two GOAT attackers as this didn’t improve my team.

The versatility, high workrate and positional fluidity is admittedly maximised by Littbarski joining Gullit, Laudrup and Elkjaer. Danish Dynamite + Total Football
 
Vogts + Kohler won’t be man-marking catenaccio style (following them all the way to the changing rooms), their defensive assignment will be more modern zonal mix defending. Even in Vogts’ and Cruyff’s historic match-up in ‘74, Der Terrier knew when to go man-to-man and when to defend the zone (as Cruyff was too quick), but Vogts’ positioning and reading were expert. Kohler too, terrific stopper (perhaps the best) but efficient in both low block, zone and man to man. The back four line will also be expertly led by Beckenbauer.

When defending after an initial press, solid & compact two banks of four:

Littbarski - Keane - Rijkaard - Gullit
Irwin - Kohler - Beckenbauer - Vogts​

There is a big difference compared to the game in 74. For starters Cruyff has a much bigger upgrade on his supporting cast and in that game would be easier in isolation for the opposition to contain him, although he still created a peno and in this game he will be buzzing all around.

on Muller he also dropped deep and linked up well whilst pressing the opposition defenders, here’s a game of his general play and he used to drop back, create space for others and also assume position in the box later in the attacking phase


In the 74 game Vogts did leave the position to chase Cruyff inside. I’m not sure how both Kohler and Vogts will be defending in zone and man marking usually it doesn’t work in hybrid as the man marker is doubled in his zone by an additional player and in your case it’s a bit dangerous strategy to lose shape not only with one man marker but two, especially you also have Kalle and Robson to me kept an eye on. Both very fast and direct players that can easily score outside the box as well.
 
Possibly but Littbarski on the left and Gullit on the right will do much better with less support than Gullit left and Robben right which allows Der Kaiser more freedom without sacrificing defensively solidity.
It’s still 4 man attack in shape when on the ball and Laudrup offers very little off the ball.
Both Gullit and Litti preferred to tuck inside and attack the middle which means he still would need some full back support to stretch the pitch.

I get the crossing idea but in this particular game we have two CBs that are excellent in the air and also a very commanding keeper with great reflexes and ability to collect the ball.

Robben also worked on the defensive end when he formed that partnership with Lahm that proved to be a very successful one. Yes Litti is a fast forward but a step behind Robben at least and when defending in banks of 4 (I think we will get more of the initiative either way with Laudrup providing little) Robben is easily the man to break the line on counter.
 
I’m unsure if this team is actually built perfectly for Cruyff. Perhaps more of a counter attack set up, than hard/high pressing and fluidity across the whole pitch (your defenders + Schuster famous for their long vertical passes). I see Schuster as your Netzer. Heynckes would be great on the left.
Cruyff teams didn’t play counter attacking football. They wanted the ball and to get is as fast as possible then transition to the shortest route to goal. We have that along with the fluidity in our midfield and front three. Cruyff also didn’t have the luxury to play alongside a great #9 as Holland best players at the time were wide forwards and in many games Rep played as a striker, or of course Cruyff as false nine and wide forwards attacking the space.

Why Rijkaard is an ungrade over Neeskens:

- doesn’t lose out on full pitch coverage but now superior positioning, reading of game and more intelligent runs.
- superior long passes (Rijkaard basically both a deep lying playmaker and box to box dynamo). Punting the ball upfield for Elkjaer and Gullit to run on to :drool:
- superior positional relationship with Beckenbauer (combinations centrally + cover at back)
- allows Keane to have more box to box influence (as he would have been more disciplined alongside Neeskens).
- Rijkaard also familiar with advanced pressing (Sacchi’s highly evolved press) and also one of the greatest 4-4-2 midfielders. Keane is one of the greatest 4-4-2 midfielders too.
- natural chemistry with Gullit
Rijkaard wasn’t the most consistent passer, and Ancelotti was positionally the DLP and the one that was directing play from deep. I’m not sure if I seen him in a DLP role to be honest, not that you need one with Beckenbauer there mind, but happy to see highlights of full game of him in that role.

Beckenbauer was also a more adventurous libero and the teams he used to command were very different to Sacchi's Milan organization. In a sense Neeskens role was similar to Rijkaard's one in Sacchi's defensive organization.


Sacchi's Milan were famous with their offside trap and how they pushed forward to defend. Rijkaard was the defensive B2B but he really didn't have the Busquets role that you are probably describing to create the synergy with Beckenbauer.

I mean from the video above some stills to see the defensive phase and organization:

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you can see Rijkaard being high up here as well:
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They were also very susceptible to the offside trap failing and having a forward breaking the lines with a very favorable route to goal.
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Again Rijkaard tracking back after pushing on the ball earlier.
then same attack when the ball was cleared:
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you can see Rijkaard pushing up(he's the one closest to the ball) and again employing the offside trap - wrongly called too.

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This is when they lose the ball and counter press. Rijkaard is the one closest to the ball once again.

To reiterate on that, the 74 dutch team were using the same aggressive high press like Milan:
ctiDDBZ.png

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And Neeskens was in similar role pressing high, whilst the team was employing a similar aggressive approach trying to box the opponent and block the passing lanes alongside employing the offside trap.


To summarize - Rijkaard and Neeskens played in a very similar setup and both were aggressive off the ball and when they lose the ball the pressed high. Rijkaard didn't fall to a CB role, but he pushed forward along with the back four. I agree that Rijkaard is individually better player but if you are looking for him to change the fluidity and shape from his Milan days, that just wasn't him and he was very, very similar to Neeskens aggressive approach.
 
I was saying your team is currently more suited for counter attack (opposite to what Cruyff is best in).


Rijkaard definitely won’t be used in a sitting destroyer/pivot #6 role (you mentioned Busquets). Keane and Rijkaard are my dynamic duo, as per OP: “Two very dynamic and complete midfielders, effective in protecting my back line, blocking passing lanes, breaking down attacks, connecting play and both creating and converting chances in the final third.”

i.e I want Rijkaard to be box to box, be able to press, be able to fire long passes from deep + be able to combine with Beckenbauer in midfield + chip in with 5 goals a season.

There are some similarities with 70s Neeskens, but Rijkaard is certainly the better midfielder who can follow my instructions better.

I have borrowed elements from Sacchi’s Milan, + the Denmark team from the 80s + Beckenbauer’s West Germany, but this isn’t their team, it’s my accumulation of all their best bits.

i.e this isn’t a Milan 1990 rebuild, with every player with those set player roles.
 
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I was saying your team is currently more suited for counter attack (opposite to what Cruyff is best in).


Rijkaard definitely won’t be used in a sitting destroyer/pivot #6 role (you mentioned Busquets). Keane and Rijkaard are my dynamic duo, as per OP: “Two very dynamic and complete midfielders, effective in protecting my back line, blocking passing lanes, breaking down attacks, connecting play and both creating and converting chances in the final third.”

i.e I want Rijkaard to be box to box, be able to press, be able to fire long passes from deep + be able to combine with Beckenbauer in midfield + chip in with 5 goals a season.

There are some similarities with 70s Neeskens, but Rijkaard is certainly the better midfielder who can follow my instructions better.

I have borrowed elements from Sacchi’s Milan, + the Denmark team from the 80s + Beckenbauer’s West Germany, but this isn’t their team, it’s my accumulation of all their best bits.


i.e this isn’t a Milan 1990 rebuild, with every player with those set player roles.
I'm not sure how this work in real life as some of the ideas are contradicting each other but seems it's just me considering the outcome.
 
Littbarski is chosen for this tie, joining the attack. Here is just one example of Littbarski showcasing his full ability:



1) two accurate assists from the left (pinpoint cross + cut back): a great provider for Elkjaer and Gullit who will be charging into the box.
2) movement across the whole pitch (both flanks, centrally and deep): in build up play and when we are attacking we encourage interchanging of positions and fluid movement. Combining with other playmakers .
3) supporting his fullback (following his man back to his own half, never letting his fullback be exposed) Irwin/Vogts will have similar protection.
4) direct dribbling style (turning midfielders inside out and pulling out defenders): he’ll give Lahm the longest 90.
5) incisive through balls: Elkjaer and Gullit can also be fed with direct vertical passes, cutting through lines, and over the top running on to goal.
6) pressing high and winning back possession higher up the pitch

On the right wing this game (but with freedom to move centrally and vertically up and down) is Gullit.
Here is the total footballer showcasing his complete ability versus Inter (against Brehme).



- involved in the build up to Milan's goal: Gullit's distribution a great mix of wonderfully weighted throughballs, quick crosses, long vertical passes, short pass and moves and long balls down the channel. Can imagine Gullit and Laudrup being a deadly combination behind Elkjaer.
- supplying great defensive cover for Tassotti (defensive fullback), dropping into deep areas following his man, clearance headers and ready to spring the counter.
- drifts on either wing, centrally, high and deep. Happy to receive the ball deep from his keeper/back four, or recieve it back to goal, high up the pitch.
- great pace leaving the Inter defenders for dead



A younger Laudrup running the show against Uruguay for Denmark. Playing behind the lethal and indefatigable Elkjaer (4 goals and 4 assist between them). Their swift, direct and bombastic raids looked threatening every attack.


- high energy and workrate in the 100mph 80s Denmark side, in comparison to his languid withdrawn style from his 30s. Blocking passing lanes, biting at the ankles of opponents, running after long passes, constant probing passes and direct runs made him a living nightmare for the South Americans.
- penetrating both the outside and inside channels (this will dovetail nicely with Littbarski and Gullit's movements).
- combining deeper with his central midfielders, cutting through clustered central areas. His dribbling style draws so many players and attention towards him, like moths to a flame (creating space for Elkjaer and Gullit). Will love to get Keane, Rijkaard and Beckenbauer involved too as his vision was 360 degrees.

Only 2 goals and orchestrating a third in this infamous matchup versus Brazil:




Both Gullit and Laudrup working perfectly with a libero too (Baresi and Olsen respectively).
 


An all action display from Robbo in a very familiar role.
He came up against a Souness led liverpool side where he scored a brace and could've easily had 1-2 more with clever 1-2's and storming through the middle.

Souness got booked for tripping him after yet another slaloming run and in a game like this considering the man marking system of the opposition he can truly shine with his goalscoring instinct.
 
Van Dijk is an eyesore in that otherwise spectacular lineup.

Picture perfect team from BD. Litti and Gullit work rate would help balance that attack.

I see this as a nearly even match with BD sneaking a 85th min winner.
I think that’s a bit harsh. Pre-injury VvD was the best defender in the world and Ballon dor contention .

on top of that I think he matches really well Elkjaer .
 


An example of calming performance at the back.

in this game he’s not supported by the likes of TAA and Joe Gomez, not that he needs hiding.
 
Draw? Perhaps @Enigma_87 deserves to go through and represent the beers as my team is made up of multiple real life duos/teammates whereas his is constructed with XI unique players (usually harder to sell a team like that, so deserves more praise).
 
Draw? Perhaps @Enigma_87 deserves to go through and represent the beers as my team is made up of multiple real life duos/teammates whereas his is constructed with XI unique players (usually harder to sell a team like that, so deserves more praise).
Nah, I think is coin toss in case of draw so that’s the fair way to go.

good game mate and well constructed side on your part. Not much between so let Lady Luck decide it :)