Barthez miss kicked in the friendly against scotland

Candona

Guest
yep! that's what happened...and the ball almost went in his own net. He is really having a bad season.
 
Great news, Fabien has never previously messed up for France ever, it's about time he spreaded out his mistakes between United and France.

I don't really care at all what France get upto.
 
<img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laugh Out Loud]" /> Nutter!
 
Originally posted by Candona:
<strong>yep! that's what happened...and the ball almost went in his own net. He is really having a bad season.</strong><hr></blockquote>


He certainly is. They only won 5-0

I heard you nearly made a sensible post once. ;)
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Originally posted by Cal:
<strong>Great news, Fabien has never previously messed up for France ever, it's about time he spreaded out his mistakes between United and France.

</strong><hr></blockquote>


He had already messed up for France... 2 or 3 errors in seven years .

The French commentators have said it was a bad rebound, this is what Fab has said himself to his teammates during the game.

He could have been rested for this game, he had no saves to do .
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Originally posted by Elfie:
<strong>


He had already messed up for France... 2 or 3 errors in seven years .

The French commentators have said it was a bad rebound, this is what Fab has said himself to his teammates during the game.

He could have been rested for this game, he had no saves to do .</strong><hr></blockquote>

It looked to me like he was rested!!!But the Scots will be back, with a new young team, with some Aberdeen players, and then we'll give anyone a game, (Accrington Stanley, Hayes, BBC radio 2 team etc etc)
Berti Vogts must like a challenge, but bloody hell!!! :o
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Has anoyne got the match recorded in full on VHS because I saw the highlights on BBC1 England and British Eurosport and the goals were great. I know I am a Brazil fan and I hate France but I had to admire the skill and movement involved in all France's goals. If anyone has the match on tape, I would be grateful if you could reply.
 
Originally posted by $ukhjit:
<strong>Has anoyne got the match recorded in full on VHS because I saw the highlights on BBC1 England and British Eurosport and the goals were great. I know I am a Brazil fan and I hate France but I had to admire the skill and movement involved in all France's goals. If anyone has the match on tape, I would be grateful if you could reply.</strong><hr></blockquote>
they showed the full match on eurosport, can you get that in Brazil?
If so your set.
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Originally posted by $ukhjit:
<strong>Has anoyne got the match recorded in full on VHS because I saw the highlights on BBC1 England and British Eurosport and the goals were great. I know I am a Brazil fan and I hate France but I had to admire the skill and movement involved in all France's goals. If anyone has the match on tape, I would be grateful if you could reply.</strong><hr></blockquote>
The game was on live on BBC Scotland, but I have buried the tape at the bottom of the garden, I'll ask the dog to look for it.Sorry.
You are right though, the goals were top quality, France must be favourites for WC this year.Albeit they won't be playing Scotland every game. :o
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Originally posted by Murt:
<strong>nearly :rolleyes:

did scotland get half a goal for that.

ie It doesnt matter.</strong><hr></blockquote>

You've just contradicted yourself on the point you made about dudek's mistake against roma..

u said that mistake proves he cant handle big pressure games..(i still dont believe that Poland's friendly could b called a big game but anyway..) and yet on this thread, when talking about barthez, you claim that a mistake doesnt matter if the person in question gets away with it (which dudek did against roma)...u cant have it both ways - one rule for barthez and another for dudek... <img src="graemlins/nono.gif" border="0" alt="[No No]" />

even YOU murt, cant dig urself outta this one.


<img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laugh Out Loud]" /> :D <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laugh Out Loud]" />
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Originally posted by Dj_Sydney_A:
<strong>
You've just contradicted yourself on the point you made about dudek's mistake against roma..
u said that mistake proves he cant handle big pressure games..(i still dont believe that Poland's friendly could b called a big game but anyway..) and yet on this thread, when talking about barthez, you claim that a mistake doesnt matter if the person in question gets away with it (which dudek did against roma)...u cant have it both ways - one rule for barthez and another for dudek... <img src="graemlins/nono.gif" border="0" alt="[No No]" />
even YOU murt, cant dig urself outta this one.
<img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laugh Out Loud]" /> :D <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laugh Out Loud]" /> </strong><hr></blockquote>

Barthez miskick was a miskick, not a dropped clanger like Dudeks in the Roma game. It was against Scotland, of course he was going to be taking it easy, hardly high pressure stuff.
This is exactly my point, Barthez is lacadasical in games like when Scotland are the opposition and their going to win 5 nil anyway.
Dudek is the opposite, great in the crap games but when it comes to big games he gets nervous and wants his mammy.
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Originally posted by Murt:
<strong>

Barthez miskick was a miskick, not a dropped clanger like Dudeks in the Roma game. It was against Scotland, of course he was going to be taking it easy, hardly high pressure stuff.
This is exactly my point, Barthez is lacadasical in games like when Scotland are the opposition and their going to win 5 nil anyway.
Dudek is the opposite, great in the crap games but when it comes to big games he gets nervous and wants his mammy.</strong><hr></blockquote>


Murt, I agree with all you say about Barthez (and thanks for that ;) ) but is it a reason to slagg off Dudek, who is an excellent keeper, just because he plays for Liverpool ?
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Originally posted by Elfie:
Murt, I agree with all you say about Barthez (and thanks for that ;) ) but is it a reason to slagg off Dudek, who is an excellent keeper,<strong> just because he plays for Liverpool ?</strong><hr></blockquote>

Cant think of a better reason to slag off anyone ;)
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Couldn't have said it better myself mate! <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laugh Out Loud]" /> <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laugh Out Loud]" />
 
Originally posted by Murt:
<strong>

Barthez miskick was a miskick, not a dropped clanger like Dudeks in the Roma game. It was against Scotland, of course he was going to be taking it easy, hardly high pressure stuff.
This is exactly my point, Barthez is lacadasical in games like when Scotland are the opposition and their going to win 5 nil anyway.
Dudek is the opposite, great in the crap games but when it comes to big games he gets nervous and wants his mammy.</strong><hr></blockquote>

No Murt..no no no no no.

Surely a miskick AND 'dropping a clanger' (as u put it) are BOTH mistakes...by definition, if nothing else...unless barthez DELIBERATELY miskicked, which i'm sure even you wouldnt try to claim..
As for big games, i remember barthez being involved in and responsible for quite a few calamaties, 2 against arsenal, and at least 2 against deportivo...these mistakes, which you seem to think are justifiable also occured in big games, so perhaps Barthez 'wants HIS mammy' too?
Also, if the mistakes at highbury hadnt occured, arsenal's 2 games in hand would have only been able to take them 2 points ahead of Man Utd...as things stand, they'll go 5 ahead of you by winning both..but its ok, cos barthez is infallable, right (?)

At the end of the day, i can highlight 5 potentially goal-conceding mistakes by barthez this season (4 of which lead to him conceding crucial goals) 2 vs Arse, 2 vs Depor and 1 for france vs scotland...whereas u have come up with 2 dudek errors, one vs roma and one for poland..2 mistakes over a season makes dudek poor but 5 make barthez brilliant?...you're clearly looking through rose-tinted spectacles and talking out of your arsenal...

the simple FACT is that this season, dudek HAS CLEARLY been better and more consistent than barthez...you cant argue against facts, Murt me old pal.
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Originally posted by Dj_Sydney_A:
No Murt..no no no no no.
Surely a miskick AND 'dropping a clanger' (as u put it) are BOTH mistakes...by definition, if nothing else...unless barthez DELIBERATELY miskicked, which i'm sure even you wouldnt try to claim..
<hr></blockquote>

Remember, im not the one who brought Barthez into the discussion. I just said that that Dudek has shown signs of struggling in the two biggest games ive seen him in. The polish game was also a big game for him. Hes not a guaranteed starter for Poland btw, Majdan is running him close and his performance last week wont have helped him.
My point is that Barthez would do as well if not better than Dudek in Liverpools defence. Dudek was under the same pressure in the Japan game as Barthez is twice a week @ utd and let in 2 goals within 45 minutes. That was what caugh my eye.

Its like this, put one man in a bullet proof vest (dudek & Pools defence) and another in a shellsuit (ironicly Barthez and the Utd defence ;) ) and who do you think has the best protection? The fitter stronger man or the man with the best "defence"


As for big games, i remember barthez being involved in and responsible for quite a few calamaties, 2 against arsenal, and at least 2 against deportivo...these mistakes, which you seem to think are justifiable also occured in big games, so perhaps Barthez 'wants HIS mammy' too?
Also, if the mistakes at highbury hadnt occured, arsenal's 2 games in hand would have only been able to take them 2 points ahead of Man Utd...as things stand, they'll go 5 ahead of you by winning both..but its ok, cos barthez is infallable, right <hr></blockquote>


never said he was infallable, mistakes are bound to come especially if the work load is too much. Its like any other job, similar to Doctors amputating wrong limbs due to pressure. Any other keeper would have collapsed long ago, like Bosnich & taibi.thats why Barthez is important to Man utd, he's a special personality and



At the end of the day, i can highlight 5 potentially goal-conceding mistakes by barthez this season (4 of which lead to him conceding crucial goals) 2 vs Arse, 2 vs Depor and 1 for france vs scotland...whereas u have come up with 2 dudek errors, one vs roma and one for poland..2 mistakes over a season makes dudek poor but 5 make barthez brilliant?...you're clearly looking through rose-tinted spectacles and talking out of your arsenal...
the simple FACT is that this season, dudek HAS CLEARLY been better and more consistent than barthez...you cant argue against facts, Murt me old pal.<hr></blockquote>

The facts are their to be argued against.
Dudek has looked better than Barthez this season mainly because hes had a lot less to do. You cant just compare them straight off, something like a "golfers handicapp" would be neccesary.
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Originally posted by Murt:
<strong>

You cant just compare them straight off, something like a "golfers handicapp" would be neccesary.
</strong><hr></blockquote>

Didnt you judge dudek 'straight off' based on TWO games?

I notice you fail to mention other games where he has been brilliant...Murt - its pure Man Utd bias mate, admit it...
I admit barthez was once the best keeper in the world...but based on this season, he wouldnt get into the top 10...dudek would....check your Opta stats.
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Originally posted by Dj_Sydney_A:
<strong>
Didnt you judge dudek 'straight off' based on TWO games?
I notice you fail to mention other games where he has been brilliant...Murt - its pure Man Utd bias mate, admit it...
I admit barthez was once the best keeper in the world...but based on this season, he wouldnt get into the top 10...dudek would....check your Opta stats.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Theirs a difference between judging one player and comparing two .
I didnt judge Dudek based on two games, i never made a comment on his ability, i just said he seemed nervy, no more no less. I never swore it in stone either, just a little hypothesis which will be tested over time. So far theirs a little strength to my arguement, who knows how it will turn out?
Theres was no need for me to mention other games where he was brilliant as i havnt seen him tested much and/ or they wernt big enough games to constitute my inclusion criteria.
I allways considered Barthez to be among the top 5 goalkeepers in the world, i wouldnt go as far to say the best. Dudek will have to do a lot more before hes in the same group. You cant prove yourself over ½ a season behind a rock hard defence and an ultra defense minded team. His world cup performances, where hell be under a lot more "football" pressure and behind a shakier defence and a more open team will be very telling. I mean his individual performance, not the Polish teams performances.
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Originally posted by Dj_Sydney_A:
<strong>

As for big games, i remember barthez being involved in and responsible for quite a few calamaties, 2 against arsenal, and at least 2 against deportivo...these mistakes, which you seem to think are justifiable also occured in big games, so perhaps Barthez 'wants HIS mammy' too?
Also, if the mistakes at highbury hadnt occured, arsenal's 2 games in hand would have only been able to take them 2 points ahead of Man Utd...as things stand, they'll go 5 ahead of you by winning both..but its ok, cos barthez is infallable, right (?)

</strong><hr></blockquote>

No, Barthez doesn't want his mammy, he's afraid of nothing. Last week he spoke about his mistakes on the French TV and said the reason was his concentration (vs Arsenal there had been an incident just before the mistakes). It's not more reassuring I admit it. :(
His errors that day had cost us two ponts that's true but in the other hand I don't think that with any other keeper we would have won that game. 17 shots for Arsenal, only 3 for us, and Fab had been MOTM for 80 minutes.

Anyway he has often proved in the past he had the nerves to handle big games...
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Originally posted by Murt:
<strong>

I didnt judge Dudek based on two games, i never made a comment on his ability, i just said he seemed nervy, no more no less.
</strong><hr></blockquote>

Based on two games, vs Roma (one mistake, clean sheet), for poland (poor 45 mins, friendly match and not for LFC so it doesnt mean a thing to me.)

Your opinion is, until you come up with more examples, based on 2 games.
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Originally posted by Murt:
<strong>

Theres was no need for me to mention other games where he was brilliant as i havnt seen him tested much and/ or they wernt big enough games to constitute my inclusion criteria.
</strong><hr></blockquote>

Not big enough games?

Dortmund away & home in CL
D. Kiev home in CL
Newcastle home & away in PL
Derby away in PL - saved last min pen
Roma home & away in CL
beating your lot @ OT in PL
Leeds away in PL
Ipswich away in PL
Gala in CL
Fulham home & away in PL
barca away
chelsea home

Murt - being a Man Utd fan, u must know yourself that when you're going for the title and/or CL, EVERY game is a big game...i've listed a few there for you..Dudek kept a clean sheet in ALL of those games...please dont try and argue that these aren't 'big' games...as i said. theyre ALL big games when challenging for honours.
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Originally posted by Murt:
<strong>

Dudek will have to do a lot more before hes in the same group. You cant prove yourself over ½ a season behind a rock hard defence and an ultra defense minded team</strong><hr></blockquote>

He was Feyenoord's goalkeeper and played a big part in them winning the title in 1999 and runners up last season...he was voted the best keeper in CL last season and was their first choice keeper for 4 consecutive seasons, making just under 150 appearances for them.
When you're one of the leading clubs in the country as Feyenoord are, you dont put up with a poor keeper for that length of time, even though it seems the 'leading' club in england (still 4 titles short), are willing to do so!

<img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laugh Out Loud]" /> <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laugh Out Loud]" />
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Originally posted by Murt:
<strong>
His world cup performances, where hell be under a lot more "football" pressure and behind a shakier defence and a more open team will be very telling. I mean his individual performance, not the Polish teams performances.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Yes, but i get the impression that you will allow the performance of Poland as a team to cloud your (biased) judgement of Dudek...its fair to say Poland aren't favourites to win their group and, although i expect Dudek to perform well, IF Poland fail to qualify or get thrashed by the likes of Portugal, this won't make Dudek a bad keeper...as you mention, Poland's defence isnt that strong, so it's likely that Jerzy will be kept busy and have lots to do..no keeper saves EVERY shot, so if (when) Dudek doesnt keep 3 clean sheets in the group stage, dont come back on here claiming it as 'evidence' that he's a bad keeper.
Just as you say he cannot be judged on 1/2 a season (although its nearer a whole season now - he arrived after our sixth game this season and of those six he missed, only 2 were in the league) equally, he cannot be judged on 3/4/5 etc (depending on how far Poland get) games in the World Cup.
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Originally posted by Elfie:
<strong>

His errors that day had cost us two ponts that's true but in the other hand I don't think that with any other keeper we would have won that game. 17 shots for Arsenal, only 3 for us, and Fab had been MOTM for 80 minutes.

Anyway he has often proved in the past he had the nerves to handle big games...</strong><hr></blockquote>

Well maybe so, but IF it was another keeper who DIDNT gift arsenal 2 goals, you mightve won or at least drawn that game, we'll never know...but what we DO know is that 3, 2 or even just one point could be so crucial come the end of the season - i hope it doesnt cost you (actually, thats a lie, i hope it does!)

I agree he's proved himself in the past, and i STILL dont say he's a BAD keeper, just that he's had a very poor season which, if you're looking for a top 5 keeper in the world, this season's performances wouldnt do Barthez's cause any good...yes, he's made MAJOR mistakes and YES this DOESNT make him a bad keeper...but Dudek has made less MAJOR mistakes (i can only recall ONE while playing for LFC) and yet, Murt still feels he isnt a good keeper...

I dont claim Dudek is the world's best, but ATM he's in the top 5 in the world IMO and THIS SEASON has, along with Shay Given, best the Premiership's best and most consistent goalkeeper.
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Originally posted by Dj_Sydney_A:
<strong>
Yes, but i get the impression that you will allow the performance of Poland as a team to cloud your (biased) judgement of Dudek...its fair to say Poland aren't favourites to win their group and, although i expect Dudek to perform well, IF Poland fail to qualify or get thrashed by the likes of Portugal, this won't make Dudek a bad keeper...as you mention, Poland's defence isnt that strong, so it's likely that Jerzy will be kept busy and have lots to do..no keeper saves EVERY shot, so if (when) Dudek doesnt keep 3 clean sheets in the group stage, dont come back on here claiming it as 'evidence' that he's a bad keeper.
Just as you say he cannot be judged on 1/2 a season (although its nearer a whole season now - he arrived after our sixth game this season and of those six he missed, only 2 were in the league) equally, he cannot be judged on 3/4/5 etc (depending on how far Poland get) games in the World Cup.</strong><hr></blockquote>

I dont expect Poland to do very well, it was an achievment to get so far. But it will be interesting to see him tested and under pressure.
Wont be enough to judge him on either, hell need a couple more seasons in the spotlight before he can be called the worlds best.
That is my point, he is unproven : Barthez is.
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Originally posted by Murt:
<strong>

I dont expect Poland to do very well, it was an achievment to get so far. But it will be interesting to see him tested and under pressure.
Wont be enough to judge him on either, hell need a couple more seasons in the spotlight before he can be called the worlds best.
That is my point, he is unproven : Barthez is.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Never said he's world's best...
but he is a proven quality keeper, Feyenoord may not b Real Madrid but theyre no mugs.

Barthez is proven, but so is batistuta...he's having a bad season and THIS season, the likes of Owen, RVN and even Gudjohnsen have been better THIS season...but that doesnt make them better overall - thats MY point...THIS SEASON dudek has been much better than barthez and i'd rather have Jerzy in my team than Barthez.
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Originally posted by Dj_Sydney_A:
<strong>
Never said he's world's best...
but he is a proven quality keeper, Feyenoord may not b Real Madrid but theyre no mugs.

Barthez is proven, but so is batistuta...he's having a bad season and THIS season, the likes of Owen, RVN and even Gudjohnsen have been better THIS season...but that doesnt make them better overall - thats MY point...THIS SEASON dudek has been much better than barthez and i'd rather have Jerzy in my team than Barthez.</strong><hr></blockquote>

If you could judge a player on a season Owen & Gerard wouldnt be up to much in fairness.
Youd prefer to have dudek in your team, fair enough, it doesnt really matter who Pool have in their team, they have a good defence and play very defensive so hes not going to have to be so good. Westerveld did an ok job their in fairness and he was in all honesty useless.

But in the Man Utd we need someone who can handle it and whos done it all before. Dudek could crumble in the same manner as Leighton, taibi, Bosnich etc have before him.
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