Are United slow due to initiating moves from a stationary position?

Sultan

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Reading the interesting Memphis interview thread, there's mention of receiving the ball whilst stationary. This is something I've noticed changing over the last few years at United, including last few years of Sir Alex's reign. Rene was the first team coach. Is this a Dutch philosophy?

United players except the full-backs receive the ball a lot whilst in a stationary position compared to other teams. That's likely because the emphasis is the zonal playing style. A defined space each player needs to mostly hold. Although most professional teams play in this manner to an extent, it's become a lot more obvious during LvG management. That's likely because he's a very strict disciplinarian on the matter. You'll notice this to be the case a lot more whilst watching the game live at the ground than TV, where the viewers are just confined to following the ball/camera. Whilst watching you're asking the players (in your mind) to move into better space, but they can't or won't due to understanding the game better than myself or instructions from the coach.

I personally think it's one of the reasons why Herrera doesn't always start. He's natural movement as a player is to be always on the move and lacks the zonal discipline required by LVG. BFS is a lot more disciplined in his play than he ever was at Bayern or playing for Germany. Di Maria had issues. Henry touched on Martial staying on the right wing against Norwich despite masses of space to move infield on Monday night football in his analysis.
 
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ctp said:
Pep disagrees: "You haven't played well if you've run a lot. Forget running, stay in position."
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Is that not up until the side is in the opposing final third? van Gaal seems to want structure and rigidity throughout the whole field.
 
When fullbacks are pushed high too early it forces wide midfielders high early. This in turn means that often wide midfielders are having to receive the ball to their feet rather than having the ball played in front of them to run onto. Opposition fullbacks are able to position themselves so that as the ball transitions they can cover the wide midfielder out wide and also cover the ball through the gap in behind. The problem as others are highlighting is that the wide midfielders are having to receive the ball from close to stationary positions.
The timing of the movement forward by our fullbacks is the key to it all but the problem is that most teams these days want their fullbacks to get high and wide early to open up space for playing out from the back. I do wonder if our fullbacks went wide but not as high if it would help our wide midfielders have more space to receive the ball going forward. As it is they are being pushed very high by our own fullbacks so its almost like our wide midfelders have to receive with the backs to the opposition goal a lot of the time.
The trouble with having fullbacks hold back a little is that it makes it harder for overlapping FB runs. However we really arent making full use of that so maybe we should try and hold our FB's a little deeper in the initial transition forward.
 
ctp said:
Pep disagrees: "You haven't played well if you've run a lot. Forget running, stay in position."
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Stay in position in defense, he doesn't want his players to overpursue and he doesn't want to see attacking players run like headless chickens, he want them to position themselves in the space and only make sharp runs.
The problem is that we don't make the sharp runs and we overpersue in defense, Guardiola would hate what we do.
 
Stack said:
When fullbacks are pushed high too early it forces wide midfielders high early. This in turn means that often wide midfielders are having to receive the ball to their feet rather than having the ball played in front of them to run onto. Opposition fullbacks are able to position themselves so that as the ball transitions they can cover the wide midfielder out wide and also cover the ball through the gap in behind. The problem as others are highlighting is that the wide midfielders are having to receive the ball from close to stationary positions.
The timing of the movement forward by our fullbacks is the key to it all but the problem is that most teams these days want their fullbacks to get high and wide early to open up space for playing out from the back. I do wonder if our fullbacks went wide but not as high if it would help our wide midfielders have more space to receive the ball going forward. As it is they are being pushed very high by our own fullbacks so its almost like our wide midfelders have to receive with the backs to the opposition goal a lot of the time.
The trouble with having fullbacks hold back a little is that it makes it harder for overlapping FB runs. However we really arent making full use of that so maybe we should try and hold our FB's a little deeper in the initial transition forward.
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You can push your fullbacks high, if you compensate by pushing your wide players inside, between the fullback and centerback, in that case you instruct them to mainly runs diagonals. I don't know if it's clear.
 
JPRouve said:
You can push your fullbacks high, if you compensate by pushing your wide players inside, between the fullback and centerback, in that case you instruct them to mainly runs diagonals. I don't know if it's clear.
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Yep understood. I was thinking more in terms of having our wide midfielders able to make attacking runs out wide. They key thing for me is the timing of fullbacks runs when pushing high. Too early and it means the wide midfielders have to adjust to suit, too late and its harder for FB's to support the wide MF
 
Stack said:
Yep understood. I was thinking more in terms of having our wide midfielders able to make attacking runs out wide. They key thing for me is the timing of fullbacks runs when pushing high. Too early and it means the wide midfielders have to adjust to suit, too late and its harder for FB's to support the wide MF
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Yeah I agree, all our attackers are too high, too soon. You are right about the timing but I think that the angle of the runs and the initial point of the runs aren't good either. We don't play enough with the shape of the opposing defense, for example, we rarely see the wingers run diagonals to the far post, these types of runs will often creates positioning or marking mistakes.

Also it might seem stupid but if I was a manager I would ask from my attackers to position themselves from behind the defense from time to time, because while the player won't be able to receive the ball he creates an uncertainty in the defenders minds, they have to look where he is going and therefore aren't looking infront of them where the ball carrier is.
 
Sultan said:
Reading the interesting Memphis interview thread, there's mention of receiving the ball whilst stationary. This is something I've noticed changing over the last few years at United, including last few years Sir Alex's reign. Rene was the first team coach. Is this a Dutch philosophy?

United players except the full-backs receive the ball a lot whilst in a stationary position compared to other teams. That's likely because the emphasis is the zonal playing style. A defined space each player needs to mostly hold. Although most professional teams play in this manner to an extent, it's become a lot more obvious during LvG management. That's likely because he's a very strict disciplinarian on the matter. You'll notice this to be the case a lot more whilst watching the game live at the ground than TV, where the viewers are just confined to following the ball/camera. Whilst watching you're asking the players (in your mind) to move into better space, but they can't or won't due to understanding the game better than myself or instructions from the coach.

I personally think it's one of the reasons why Herrera doesn't always start. He's natural movement as a player is to be always on the move and lacks the zonal discipline required by LVG. BFS is a lot more disciplined in his play than he ever was at Bayern or playing for Germany. Di Maria had issues. Henry touched on Martial staying on the right wing against Norwich despite masses of space to move infield on Monday night football in his analysis.
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Great observation Sults. I grew up watching both EPL and Polish Premier league. The thing you mention, receiving the ball either in movment or in the stationary postion, always was a stark contrast between the leagues.
Under Fergie playera would pass the ball few meters forward for the other player to receive it. I enjoyed that.
 
It's a simple product of the fact we move the ball forward very slowly and don't counter attack with any sort of pace. Our attackers end up receiving the ball in stationary positions or in little space as the opposition has had time to get 8 or 9 players defending compactly around the edge of their own box... this is what makes us dull to watch as you need an awful lot of quality to break down teams like this. Quality we do not possess for the most part.
 
It's not whether you move, it's when you move and how fast you do it. Xavi/Busquets used to be close to the top of the CL distance covered stats when Guardiola was there. United were 4th on the distance covered chart earlier this season (behind Spurs, WBA and Bournemouth)

But yes, a lot of our movement's done in a kind of slow motion - move into position and wait - pattern. We're very poor at passing to where the player is going to be, and when we try the sharp through balls to run onto, well neither Rooney nor Memphis currently have the timing or the acceleration for it. It's partly the "half second that's in the head" that we lack, and yes, we do seem to do a lot of standing starts, which makes things very hard going forward, particularly for whoever's playing wide like Memphis or Mata.
 
I think there's been a kind of laziness/complacency about our team(s) in recent years. From Rio slowly strolling out of defence (taking his time to make a forward pass) to Rooney not bothering to run late into the box and so get on the end of chances, it seems this mindset has taken hold.
 
To hold positions we need players who can then find them accurately with fast passing. Something not all our players can do, so the passing slows down.

IMHO this type of play will not succeed in England, as we will literally have to buy all new players who are at the level of barca.

We should play to our strengths, like Leicester are doing, and they, yes Leicester are tearing up the league by simple football

Don't complicate things, it's not necessRy
 
ZupZup said:
It's a simple product of the fact we move the ball forward very slowly and don't counter attack with any sort of pace. Our attackers end up receiving the ball in stationary positions or in little space as the opposition has had time to get 8 or 9 players defending compactly around the edge of their own box... this is what makes us dull to watch as you need an awful lot of quality to break down teams like this. Quality we do not possess for the most part.
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We hardly ever pass forward for starters ;)
 
For those who are saying Pep dislikes movement.. that is utterly wrong. He dislikes 'brainless' movement, one which does not really have any impact on the teams ability to keep the ball and enhance the ability of the team to pass the ball forward, but intelligent movement of the ball is something he very much advocates.

In fact I would argue that his peak Barca side had the best movement off the ball of all time.. it was exceptional. You'd see the likes of Busquet moving to left back or Pique hugging the touchline just to make it easier for someone like Valdes to pass the ball out. As for Xavi and Iniesta, two of the most gifted midfield minds I have ever seen in terms of movement off the ball.. they were so subtle but always on the move, making the right runs to get on the ball. The best thing about Barcelona was that it wasn't just a few individuals, the entire team and club buys into this moving off the ball, forever creating triangles and angles.. allowing you to play out of any tight situation regardless of how high the opponent presses you.

You rarely see Barcelona pressed high up the pitch and suffering, their possession still carries on regardless and they slickly move the ball forward at speed. Compare that to United under latter years of Fergie and even now under Van Gaal. As soon as we are pressed, we hoof the ball up top or out of play. Zero composure, zero movement off the ball.

One of the biggest culprits in our side is Michael Carrick... his movement off the ball is awful compared to someone like Busquets or Verratti. He is a very static midfielder even at his peak and that means he stands still when the other team presses high, he is easily marked and that means the defenders have no one to assist them in playing out of defence. Compare that to someone like Roy Keane or even Nicky Butt, they would always be moving off the ball.. and I rarely saw them suffer in tight spaces (we weren't even a possession side then).

The current United team reminds me of the England side (with Lampard and Gerrard in a 4-4-2). Both of them had awful movement off the ball, they had good attacking movement off the ball i.e. could make runs into the box but in terms of moving off the ball continuously in midfield to get into space and help keep possession, they were clueless. We were super static in midfield, looked very rigid and looked like a team out of the dark ages despite supposedly having two of the biggest midfield names in the world in our national side. Scholes wiped the floor with them as he actually knew how to move off the ball and keep finding pockets of space in which to receive the ball.

Back to Barca in terms of the attacking trio under Pep.. he has Henry, Eto'o, Messi.. and then revamped that with Pedro, Villa and Messi. It is only when Zlatan was in the side, he noticed that the attack became too static and he felt that was one of the reasons why they suffered against the likes of Inter. He is a manager who thrives on movement off the ball in the attacking third, the more they can stretch the opposition.. easier for his side to keep possession, create chances and slide passes through.
 
Sultan said:
Is this a Dutch philosophy?
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No, it's what happens when a certain Dutch playing style isn't executed properly.

United players except the full-backs receive the ball a lot whilst in a stationary position compared to other teams. That's likely because the emphasis is the zonal playing style. A defined space each player needs to mostly hold. Although most professional teams play in this manner to an extent, it's become a lot more obvious during LvG management. That's likely because he's a very strict disciplinarian on the matter. You'll notice this to be the case a lot more whilst watching the game live at the ground than TV, where the viewers are just confined to following the ball/camera. Whilst watching you're asking the players (in your mind) to move into better space, but they can't or won't due to understanding the game better than myself or instructions from the coach.
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They got to move to create a space, player C should move to recieve the ball from player B when player A is about to pass it to B. But this requires players to move more in relation to eachother and react to eachothers movement rather than react to the ball's movement. They have to keep the triangles while moving and they have to make sure the player with the ball has two options to pass (one of them not necessarily a forward pass). This is not very difficult to understand, but if it's not the instinct of the player and he has to think about it for a while, he starts moving too late and the space is disappearing quickly. It's more difficult to it understand it to the extend the player don't have to think about it all, and that's what the pace of the PL requires. The zonal playing style is a structure players should use to create space with movement, not a structure that will create space just by having it.

I personally think it's one of the reasons why Herrera doesn't always start. He's natural movement as a player is to be always on the move and lacks the zonal discipline required by LVG. BFS is a lot more disciplined in his play than he ever was at Bayern or playing for Germany. Di Maria had issues. Henry touched on Martial staying on the right wing against Norwich despite masses of space to move infield on Monday night football in his analysis.
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Last season Herrera's movement was quite stupid for such an intelligent player. Often when another player was under pressure, he went to him to help him, instead of moving away from the ball to really help. That's just a wrong instinct, it crowds the area where te player is under pressure, and the pressure can't be taken off by just passing it as inaccurate as necessery into space somewhere near Herrera. This season he has done much better and has made himself available for a longer but easier pass.

With Memphis the problem was also that he was used to be able to do something good when he recieved the ball when stationary. In the PL he couldn't, and there were more moves he couldn't pull off in the PL he could in the Eredivisie. So he had to rethink his first touches, his moves and his dribbles and use his talents to find things that work for him in the PL to.

Progress has been made by him, and in general players are speeding up their movement, at the cost of mistakes, but also with more and better attacks as a result.
 
Forwards are making very few diagonal runs, because they have learned the midfielders won't pass to them, and it's pointless making space for midfielders to run into because none of them will actually run into it, with the ball or not. Instead the man on the ball will turn and pass sideways or backwards. This must be coached, and there's only one answer to that, get rid the coach. If it is the players, and I suspect in one case it is, then get rid of him too.
 
I'd say it's more that we initiate moves from a stationary position because we're slow.
 
2 Man Midfield said:
I'd say it's more that we initiate moves from a stationary position because we're slow.
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Nah, if you look at Atletico in the last years they don't have speedsters but they are not slow, same thing with Athletic. Footballers rarely make long runs, what is important is to make the right pass at the right time and the right run at the right time.
 
I've certainly noticed that Schweinsteiger's side-foot passes are the slowest i've ever seen.
 
There's far too many balls played in to feet in the final third that's for sure, when everyone's fit we have no problem defending well as a unit, keeping possession of the ball and slowly advancing into the opponents third. The problem then arises that because it's taken us to long to get there the other team then gets 10 men behind the ball and we don't have sufficient quality in the attacking positions to break down a fully set defence, another reason we have so little shots on target.

In any sport the easiest way to generate points or score is on the counter attack, we don't do it ever.
 
golden_blunder said:
To hold positions we need players who can then find them accurately with fast passing. Something not all our players can do, so the passing slows down.

IMHO this type of play will not succeed in England, as we will literally have to buy all new players who are at the level of barca.

We should play to our strengths, like Leicester are doing, and they, yes Leicester are tearing up the league by simple football

Don't complicate things, it's not necessRy
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Absolutely agree with you..
This is one thing above all I think that has hampered our transition from SAF..
Yes in the last few years we we're playing some dire football, however, he knew how to get te best out of his players. This is something that LVG up till now hasn't done, nor Moyes before him.
We really needed a smooth handover, like the passing of a baton, but...
It really beggars belief that there seems to have been so little foresight and so little planning.. Which has lead to so much confusion.

Where is the pass and move?
Where is the passion to want to bust a gut to make something happen?
Where is the fight from the whole team until the end of the game.
Where is the pride to play for the shirt that fueled fear in our rivals?

LVG has been critisized for just sitting on his seat during our games.. The players are just doing the same.. Not moving, just programmed robots with no other mode.

Things without doubt need to change (move) .. My worry is, if this immobility is a symptom of things at a far deeper level than just the players and manager.
 
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Oo0AahCantona said:
There's far too many balls played in to feet in the final third that's for sure, when everyone's fit we have no problem defending well as a unit, keeping possession of the ball and slowly advancing into the opponents third. The problem then arises that because it's taken us to long to get there the other team then gets 10 men behind the ball and we don't have sufficient quality in the attacking positions to break down a fully set defence, another reason we have so little shots on target.

In any sport the easiest way to generate points or score is on the counter attack, we don't do it ever.
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The problem is that we arent set up to counter attack.
 
Stack said:
The problem is that we arent set up to counter attack.
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And shouldn't be. It's the easy way to get point, but you don't have the iniative and allways wait whether you get opportunities. That's fine if your aim is to see if you can get something from a game, if you have to win a lot of your games like a title challenger, you have to be able to take matters into your own hands.
 
Dr. Funkenstein said:
And shouldn't be. It's the easy way to get point, but you don't have the iniative and allways wait whether you get opportunities. That's fine if your aim is to see if you can get something from a game, if you have to win a lot of your games like a title challenger, you have to be able to take matters into your own hands.
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Well thats not entirely true. A side that is properly set up to counter attack is in fact controlling the situation. the first part is defending with a view to counter attack. there are a set of movements and triggers which are setting the trap. The key to counter attacking effectively is not the actual counter attack, its the defensive setup and shape. Teams that are properly set up to counter attack dont just sit and wait for a chance to counter attack, they are actively trying to engineer the right conditions to counter attack. On the surface it looks like a passive sort of tactic but in reality its very proactive.
 
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I think Herrera and Shaw have the best movements. Rafael and Welbeck were also brilliant, unfortunately, they've left. Martial moved in his initial few games but has either changed or has been asked to change. Shaw has been a massive miss for the team, and Memphis. They seemed to be on the way to building a good partnership. There's too much predictability in the way the teams playing - making the jobs of opposing teams to be coached to counter and negate the team prior to the game easy.

The best United have played over the last 18 Months was last season against City, Liverpool and Spurs. The movement was fantastic, played in pairs, and the star men in those games were Blind, Fellaini combining on the left, Herrera and Mata on the right and Rooney supporting them in the pocket. All players who have been criticised greatly during this season.
 
Sultan said:
I think Herrera and Shaw have the best movements. Rafael and Welbeck were also brilliant, unfortunately, they've left. Martial moved in his initial few games but has either changed or has been asked to change. Shaw has been a massive miss for the team, and Memphis. They seemed to be on the way to building a good partnership. There's too much predictability in the way the teams playing - making the jobs of opposing teams to be coached to counter and negate the team prior to the game easy.

The best United have played over the last 18 Months was last season against City, Liverpool and Spurs. The movement was fantastic, played in pairs, and the star men in those games were Blind, Fellaini combining on the left, Herrera and Mata on the right and Rooney supporting them in the pocket. All players who have been criticised greatly during this season.
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I will neer understand why LVG didn't build on that 433 last year, best we have ever looked under him.
 
Dr. Funkenstein said:
And shouldn't be. It's the easy way to get point, but you don't have the iniative and allways wait whether you get opportunities. That's fine if your aim is to see if you can get something from a game, if you have to win a lot of your games like a title challenger, you have to be able to take matters into your own hands.
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Agree to an extent. Counter-attacking play is a tactic. It is engineered so the opposition have a lot of the ball and lull them into a sense of superiority or security. Fergie mastered this and was used to great effect against the likes of Arsenal. You do need great quality and speed to action this plan. United had Kanchelskis Sharp, Giggs, Ronaldo, Rooney, RvN to mention a few to action this plan. Leicester City are using this tactic to great effect so far this season.
 
It's been discussed before and it's been used by some people to have a dig at LvG and his "philosophy", the "stay in your position" argument i mean. Possession football means slow build up from behind and breaking the opponent's pressing while passing the ball through the lines with safety. In order to do that without the risk of losing the ball in your half of the pitch you must pass the ball to the feet of your teammate and not into space, that's the safest way to do it.

The trick is that this applies to passing the ball in the first 2/3 of the pitch. When the ball gets into the final third the creative players have freedom to make runs, exploit spaces, try one twos and do whatever they think will lead to a clear cut chance. Right now, our players don't get it and they don't try anything when the ball is near the opponent's box. Maybe it's because they don't have faith in themselves that they will be able to protect possession, maybe because they're not good in possession in tight areas, maybe they don't feel comfortable with one touch football but need more time and space on the ball and therefore desire a more counter attacking approach.

Herrera doesn't start as an #8 because LvG doesn't think he's disciplined and composed enough to secure smooth offensive transition into the final third and he doesn't start that often as a #10 mainly because the manager wants a shadow striker there, someone in the mold of Muller or Litmanen, who will create a good partnership with the main man upfront.

It's not so much about movement as it is about being able to operate in tight areas, create pockets of space for your teammates and spot the runs behind the defenders while facing an organised defense.

Here is a wonderful video of Henry explaining everything...

 
Stack said:
Well thats not entirely true. A side that is properly set up to counter attack is in fact controlling the situation. the first part is defending with a view to counter attack. there are a set of movements and triggers which are setting the trap. The key to counter attacking effectively is not the actual counter attack, its the defensive setup and shape. Teams that are properly set up to counter attack dont just sit and wait for a chance to counter attack, they are actively trying to engineer the right conditions to counter attack. On the surface it looks like a passive sort of tactic but in reality its very proactive.
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True, but only if you take for granted that the opponent attacks. If they sit back because of tactic, or simply refuse to play, for example because they're happy with a point or the lead, there's a problem if you're only good at counterattacking. You're not fully controlling the situation in the sense that opponent has to cooperate by attacking. If you play the possession game (well) you don't need the opponent to create situations you can attack from.

Sultan said:
Fergie mastered this and was used to great effect against the likes of Arsenal. You do need great quality and speed to action this plan. United had Kanchelskis Sharp, Giggs, Ronaldo, Rooney, RvN to mention a few to action this plan.
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I think the United of the Kanchelski's era was one of the best in counterattacks I've seen, it was like a springloaded scissor arm with multiple triangles expanding. Dinamo Kiev was brilliant in counter attack also. It's not that I don't appreciate it, but generally when there are two counter attacking teams, the match will look much better at MotD than the whole match live.

Leicester City are using this tactic to great effect so far this season.
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It's a very sensible tactic to collect a lot of points, it's much less a sensible tactic if you want to win every game. Also it works still relatively well in the PL, because there's an attacking spirit in any team: they all will attack in numbers when they have the ball and they will attack when a goal down. In Italy for example it's different, there are teams there who just don't move forward unless they're a goal down with 10 minutes to go.

Question234 said:
I will neer understand why LVG didn't build on that 433 last year, best we have ever looked under him.
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Because it were does opponent who forced them to speed up their possession game, they couldn't force themselves to play it quicker. They're only starting to learn that in the last two months.
 
Dr. Funkenstein said:
True, but only if you take for granted that the opponent attacks. If they sit back because of tactic, or simply refuse to play, for example because they're happy with a point or the lead, there's a problem if you're only good at counterattacking. You're not fully controlling the situation in the sense that opponent has to cooperate by attacking. If you play the possession game (well) you don't need the opponent to create situations you can attack from.
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Very good point.
 
I watch a lot of Bayern and 60% of the time their play is as slow and methodical as ours. The key is when they attack, theirs is just much more dangerous and they are able to sustain theirs.
 
golden_blunder said:
We should play to our strengths, like Leicester are doing, and they, yes Leicester are tearing up the league by simple football
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That's a philosophy which applies to everything in life.
If you get the basics right, this should be "enough" in most cases, to be very good at your job, sport or any other area in your life.
LVG has not got the basics right and that is hurting us.
 
I think I'm in the minority, I want us to continue playing possession football regardless of which manager comes in.
 
things is players have to make off the ball movements, especially in the final third, and "predict" where your team mate will go and make a pass there (which is where team chemistry comes in - and this is what barca is so good at right now), which brings element of unpredictability to the attack leading to more chances. it's also what suarez does so well, finding pockets of space and making the run just at the right time for a clear cut chance.

if you don't make those runs opposing defenders can just mark a player out of the game just by intercepting the passing route to that player. it's big part of why we find it so hard to create chances.
 
Winrar said:
if you don't make those runs opposing defenders can just mark a player out of the game just by intercepting the passing route to that player. it's big part of why we find it so hard to create chances.
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Exactly, it's all about quick thinking and thinking as and about the third man.

TheRedDevil'sAdvocate said:
Here is a wonderful video of Henry explaining everything...

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I don't agree with him in this case, he gives an example of Martial staying out wide while it's wrong and because he's on the leash. He should have exploited the space in the box. After that he gives an example of Barca where Villa stays out wide and then exploits the space in the box. But in both cases, the space is there because the player stays wide, that's creating the space, the only difference is that at Barca after that the ball is played to Villa, who can exploit his created space, and didn't get played to Martial, who couldn't exploit his created space because he didn't get the ball.

Staying wide, as the third man, was good, not getting the ball as the third man was not good. Not quick enough thinking about the third man of his team mate in case of Martial.
 
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