All wrong before the start of the match

[uranushk1]

It's a very sad and disappointing night. Most players didn't perform their standard except Barthez, Keane, Brown, Blanc and Silverstre. But we got it wrong even before the game start. 4-4-1-1 with Veron behind Ruud and Scholes at RM, effectively randering Veron and Scholes ineffective (well, no matter how Veron is ineffective anyway...). In a match we must win we have left our best form striker on the bench for over two-third of the game.

I really feel pity for the players, and especially Keane, who gave his all to return fit and should have become our match winner.

 

[farawaylands]

you knew veron was going to play in the match. and i think that was the best place to put him. granted i too would have stuck with ole over veron...but oh well...

 

[uranushk1]

Originally posted by farawaylands:
<strong>you knew veron was going to play in the match. and i think that was the best place to put him. granted i too would have stuck with ole over veron...but oh well...</strong><hr></blockquote>

But Veron is not a supporting striker no matter how, and Scholes is not a RM. Playing this formation effectively made us become 4-5-1, and that's why Leverkusen was holding all the ball and we kept losing the ball to them for the most period of the match.

 

[dar10nian]

Originally posted by farawaylands:
<strong>you knew veron was going to play in the match. and i think that was the best place to put him. granted i too would have stuck with ole over veron...but oh well...</strong><hr></blockquote>

There is just no justification to have drop Ole yesterday. I dun see how Veron deserved to in the first 11. Genius as he is , Fergie is just gettingit wrong in this 4-5-1 formation. Allows weaker teams to dominate us. We played much better when we reverted to 4-4-2 with Ole on .

Too many players played badly. RVN, Giggs and Scholes were passengers. At least when we got knocked out by Dortmund in 1998, we threw the kitchen sink at them. Certainly wasn;t the case yesterday.

 

[darko]

Originally posted by uranushk1:
<strong>It's a very sad and disappointing night. Most players didn't perform their standard except Barthez, Keane, Brown, Blanc and Silverstre. But we got it wrong even before the game start. 4-4-1-1 with Veron behind Ruud and Scholes at RM, effectively randering Veron and Scholes ineffective (well, no matter how Veron is ineffective anyway...). In a match we must win we have left our best form striker on the bench for over two-third of the game.

I really feel pity for the players, and especially Keane, who gave his all to return fit and should have become our match winner.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Perfect assesment of a useless formation.

Some would put this loss down to bad luck. Did that Johnsen header cross the line? Anyway, that was in the first half. When it came time to push for the winning goal, let's face, we were short of a few horses.

Yes, it would have been nice to have Beckham in the team. He is a producer. Not a flake (Veron).

The failure of this squad comes down to the change in strikers. Yes, RVN was superb this season. But, to often in big games SAF felt it necessary to leave him without a strike partner. most of the time, he suffered as a result. OGS deserves better and should have started in place of Veron. He earned that right based on his form. Let's also take a look at what we lost.

Basically, three strikers were played off our squad. First, Dwight Yorke. Let's be honest. Fergie didn't really have any intention of using him this season. This alone should have been enough to keep (beg) Teddy Sheringham at OT. And oh, what a difference he would have made over Forlan tonight coming off the bench. Even Andy Cole would have been nice to have at our disposale. Would Ruud have had alot more room to operate tonight.

Now our midfiield. Keane you are amazing. What a game he had. What a leader. Veron is a flake who has no place in our side. He kills our flow and plays the up-the-middle floater to often. That might work for Argentina but with United. Giggs really had very little impact tonight as well. Not a bad game. But not good. Scholes was lost at RM. Actually he played more like RCM. Butt was good and didn't derserve that yellow.

The defence were preety good. Silvestre had his usually couple of F ups. Johnsen was great going forward again. Brown solid at RB.. Irwin proved to be anything but the Irwin of yesterdays. ( Why was Brown taken off?)

As for what we should do for next season, I'm sur there's a posting already about that.

Prediction Real Madrid in an easy win in the final by 3 goals.

 

[Penny]

Darko mentioned most issues to the point ... except that I think Johnsen went out not Brown ( I was watching with my eyes half closed .. 4am in the morning )

and on the final .. I think Leverkusen should be able to give Real a good fight ... Real hasn't really show their supreme form lately .. .Although they could always step up a gear come to crucial game ...

 

[Red15]

Yes, I really wish we had played 4-4-2 and that Ole had started. We all knew that in all likelihood we'd have to score at least 2 goals, that one was never going to be enough. Ole has been our in-form strker for the past 6 weeks and isolating Ruud up front by himself again when we really needed goals was, I think, a bad idea. I think Seba's the one who should have started on the bench. It's frustrating because I feel that because of his price tag, Fergie feels like Seba always has to play when in certain matches, there are players who should start ahead of him. As for Ole, being the model pro he is, he never complains when he's dropped even when he's deserving of a place. So, it's always easy for Fergie to drop him. Sometimes I wish Ole would throw more of a fuss when he is dropped.

 

[Livvie]

Originally posted by Red15:
<strong>Yes, I really wish we had played 4-4-2 and that Ole had started. We all knew that in all likelihood we'd have to score at least 2 goals, that one was never going to be enough. Ole has been always our in-form strker for the past 6 weeks.

As for Ole, being the model pro he is, he never complains when he's dropped even when he's deserving of a place. So, it's always easy for Fergie to drop him. Sometimes I wish Ole would throw more of a fuss when he is dropped.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Dead right. He was the player in form, and was scoring every game almost. Being dropped for no reason ruins a players momentum. That's why Ole will leave. He's now shown what he can do but is still the sacrificial lamb.

 

[Ulster Red]

Would have to agree. Do not know how Ole puts up with it. Veron has cost United dearly this season. I know it is stating the obvious but, more often than not, shape of team suffers when he is in starting line up. Sad but true - the Deportivo game at OT was an exception.

Keano the main man again. Greatest ever united player bar Bestie?

We'll be back next season with avengance.

 

[$ukhjit]

Originally posted by Livvie20:

That's why Ole will leave.

<hr></blockquote>

He didn't mean it, please don't go Ole!

 

[Amir]

Originally posted by darko:
<strong>
Basically, three strikers were played off our squad. First, Dwight Yorke. Let's be honest. Fergie didn't really have any intention of using him this season. This alone should have been enough to keep (beg) Teddy Sheringham at OT.

Teddy didn't leave because of Yorke or something like that. Anyway, Dwight did actually play in some matches earlier in the season.
</strong><hr></blockquote>

As for Solskjaer, he was sacrificed for the formation Fergie wanted to put. He didn't want 4-4-2, he wanted the 4-5-1! So stop blabbing on about Fergie's mishandling of Solskjaer. He put Veron and not Ole not because Veron was expensive and Ole was not, but because he wanted a bloody midfield player.

 

[mrgratis]

Originally posted by Amir:
<strong>

As for Solskjaer, he was sacrificed for the formation Fergie wanted to put. He didn't want 4-4-2, he wanted the 4-5-1! So stop blabbing on about Fergie's mishandling of Solskjaer. He put Veron and not Ole not because Veron was expensive and Ole was not, but because he wanted a bloody midfield player.</strong><hr></blockquote>

I agree with you that price was not an issue, but why did he have Veron out as a midfield player when in the last 10 - 15 minutes of the game he switched places with feckin Blanc. What was all that about?
You have a world class midfielder and he goes back as a sweeper leaving you a little exposed to say the least.

 

[uranushk1]

Originally posted by darko:
<strong>

Perfect assesment of a useless formation.

Some would put this loss down to bad luck. Did that Johnsen header cross the line? Anyway, that was in the first half. When it came time to push for the winning goal, let's face, we were short of a few horses.

Yes, it would have been nice to have Beckham in the team. He is a producer. Not a flake (Veron).

The failure of this squad comes down to the change in strikers. Yes, RVN was superb this season. But, to often in big games SAF felt it necessary to leave him without a strike partner. most of the time, he suffered as a result. OGS deserves better and should have started in place of Veron. He earned that right based on his form. Let's also take a look at what we lost.

Basically, three strikers were played off our squad. First, Dwight Yorke. Let's be honest. Fergie didn't really have any intention of using him this season. This alone should have been enough to keep (beg) Teddy Sheringham at OT. And oh, what a difference he would have made over Forlan tonight coming off the bench. Even Andy Cole would have been nice to have at our disposale. Would Ruud have had alot more room to operate tonight.

Now our midfiield. Keane you are amazing. What a game he had. What a leader. Veron is a flake who has no place in our side. He kills our flow and plays the up-the-middle floater to often. That might work for Argentina but with United. Giggs really had very little impact tonight as well. Not a bad game. But not good. Scholes was lost at RM. Actually he played more like RCM. Butt was good and didn't derserve that yellow.

The defence were preety good. Silvestre had his usually couple of F ups. Johnsen was great going forward again. Brown solid at RB.. Irwin proved to be anything but the Irwin of yesterdays. ( Why was Brown taken off?)

As for what we should do for next season, I'm sur there's a posting already about that.

Prediction Real Madrid in an easy win in the final by 3 goals.</strong><hr></blockquote>

I agree with most points you made, particularly the point about Dwight Yorke and Andy Cole. I've already said long before that our depth in squad is already inexist up front. When I saw Deigo Forlan came out in the last ten minutes, I can only sigh in despair. I absolutely can't expect he can do anything for us. That's why besides buying defender we must at least buy another forward in the summer.

 

[aleni]

ole is the best striker in the world with his finishing, and he's so loyal, i wish to have 4 ole's in our team.

 

[Livvie]

Originally posted by Amir:
<strong>

As for Solskjaer, he was sacrificed for the formation Fergie wanted to put. He didn't want 4-4-2, he wanted the 4-5-1! So stop blabbing on about Fergie's mishandling of Solskjaer. He put Veron and not Ole not because Veron was expensive and Ole was not, but because he wanted a bloody midfield player.</strong><hr></blockquote>


So was it the correct formation or not? We had chances, but you would expect some - would we have had more with a more attacking system?

And sorry Amir, but Ole has been in better scoring form than Ruud of late.

 

[christiepark_boy]

Formation all wrong. We put out a formation to play a smart, sophisticated, "european" style, tight midfield game. Waste of bloody time when we probably needed to score up to three goals to get the advantage in the tie. Why have Ole on the bench when he has been scoring in two's and three's since Christmas ?

Why concede the initiative at the start of the second half and leave it so long before bringing Ole on ? He has been sharper than Ruud of late, and it was clear that Ruud and Gigsy were getting nowhere and Scholes wasn't in the game. The whole team started to function in the last 20 mins, but it was too little, too late.

 

[uranushk1]

Originally posted by christiepark_boy:
<strong>Formation all wrong. We put out a formation to play a smart, sophisticated, "european" style, tight midfield game. Waste of bloody time when we probably needed to score up to three goals to get the advantage in the tie. Why have Ole on the bench when he has been scoring in two's and three's since Christmas ?

Why concede the initiative at the start of the second half and leave it so long before bringing Ole on ? He has been sharper than Ruud of late, and it was clear that Ruud and Gigsy were getting nowhere and Scholes wasn't in the game. The whole team started to function in the last 20 mins, but it was too little, too late.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Agree. IMO we are not flexible enough in our tactic. Fergie has decided "we must play 4-4-1-1 in Europe away matches". The problem is the "MUST" here. Because we MUST play 4-4-1-1 therefore Ole was on the bench even when he is playing the best football in his life. I think we should design a formation suitable for the particular match and for our players, rather then fix a formation no matter what players we have and who is the opponents.

 

[Livvie]

Originally posted by uranushk1:
<strong>

Agree. IMO we are not flexible enough in our tactic. Fergie has decided "we must play 4-4-1-1 in Europe away matches". The problem is the "MUST" here. Because we MUST play 4-4-1-1 therefore Ole was on the bench even when he is playing the best football in his life. I think we should design a formation suitable for the particular match and for our players, rather then fix a formation no matter what players we have and who is the opponents.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Makes sense. That's why it's probably a no-goer.

 

[Red15]

Originally posted by uranushk1:
<strong>

Agree. IMO we are not flexible enough in our tactic. Fergie has decided "we must play 4-4-1-1 in Europe away matches". The problem is the "MUST" here. Because we MUST play 4-4-1-1 therefore Ole was on the bench even when he is playing the best football in his life. I think we should design a formation suitable for the particular match and for our players, rather then fix a formation no matter what players we have and who is the opponents.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Agreed. I actually think Fergie's 4-4-1-1 formation has worked really well at times in our away matches in the Champions League. But given our particular situation going in that match on Tuesday, I think we needed to be more offensively minded and that he should have gone back to 4-4-2. Going into that match, Ole was arguably our most in-form player, not only our most in-form striker. Also, if Ruud and Ole had started, we only would have had one player playing out of position (either Scholesy or Seba). We've had too many players playing out of position in too many matches this year which I think has really cost us.

 

[darko]

The fact remains that against BL, we were out played in both legs using a 4-4-1-1 system. So much for midfield domination. I wouldn't think that BL's players are better player than United's.