All-Time XI built around Franz Beckenbauer

[Invictus]

Of all the legends that have received special attention thus far with dedicated threads, this is the one who intrigues me most — due in no small part to the personal impression that even though he's a Top 5 player of all time, you get a sense that his sheer name isn't always afforded the same gravity as a few others (though that might be down to preference for attackers) — and his ideal positioning is an enigmatic issue — would he operate as a box-to-box like under Schöne in 1966 or as an advanced defensive libero or as a calculating sweeper or perhaps a holder? Or as a hybrid...or does he not need a settled position that pigeon-holes him in the grand scheme of things?

I'd probably go with this XI (excluding those that played with him) — and would appreciate the opinions/lineups of the rest of the draft community...

Kind of a lopsided 4-3-3 with him being a False 6, of sorts — including Cristiano might be a bit much considering he can be selfish (relative to some other wide forwards) and the team should revolve around Beckenbauer instead of him and another godlike player, but there's no obvious overlap between the two and Ronaldo needs few touches to make a deadly impact. Plenty of room and freedom for Beckenbauer to dictate the game from the cockpit position or study all the spaces and organize the team or bomb forward at will without worrying about defensive security. Häßler might be a bit odd considering someone like Seedorf could've easily played as the RAM/RCM while adding an extra degree of steel, but I really liked the dynamics between him and Matthäus, most notably in the 1990 World Cup — and he was fairly intelligent in terms of positioning and deference to superior players.

 

[harms]

The beauty of Kaiser is that at his peak he played as a center back in a 4-man defense and still influenced the game at every level. I don't think that there's a need of freeing him up and putting him in midfield or in a back five. 1972 West Germany is my main inspiration, although I opted for a bit different midfield balance. But still, I have a top-notch Netzer and Müller replacements and the rest of the team is their supporting cast.

Thought about Scholes in the middle for a second, but opted for Platini, who seems perfect for this role — he plays much deeper than your regular number 10's, provides top-notch goalscoring and has a proven partnership with a roaming libero in Scirea. Tried to put as much workhorses as I could and opted for the likes of Davids, Schweiny, Boniek and Jairzinho over more sexy options to let Kaiser shine — although it can easily be a Platini All-Time XI as well. Brehme and Thuram are my generic options for an all-time XIs with Thuram being able to cover for Kaiser's runs.

 

[The Red Viper]

Why Brehme and not Facchetti?

 

[Enigma_87]

No Netzer or Muller? I'm disappointed.

 

[Enigma_87]

Something like this I think.

Netzer and der Bomber are definite starters. Can't think of better options than them and especially in the case of der Bomber you can't really upgrade him, especially in a German set up.

Can replace Blokhin perhaps but I like his presence on that left flank and his movement, especially running into channels.

edit: disregard the forward arrow on Rijkaard, sharemytactics is playing tricks on me.

 

[Invictus]

No Netzer or Muller? I'm disappointed.

Well, I deliberately excluded his team-mates because including Müller/Netzer or indeed Vogts/Rummenigge/Breitner would have made things more straight-forward and derivative because you would be immediately tempted to replicate the proven dynamics of West Germany '72, among others — excellent setups obviously, but might not have left a great scope for random experimentation or trying out cross-era fits considering their interwoven histories. At first glance, @harms hasn't selected his team-mates, either.

 

[Enigma_87]

Well, I deliberately excluded his team-mates because including Müller/Netzer or indeed Vogts/Rummenigge/Breitner would have made things more straight-forward and derivative because you would be immediately tempted to replicate the proven dynamics of West Germany '72, among others — excellent setups obviously, but might not have left a great scope for random experimentation or trying out cross-era fits considering their interwoven histories. At first glance, @harms hasn't selected his team-mates, either.

ah I see, good point.

Well in this case, slight adjustments

Think 4-3-3 will be the best option for der Kaiser starting from the back. Rijkaard is naturally the best option dropping in. A Carlos Alberto, Thuram or similar type of covering RB is also needed to fill the void in case he forays forward.

I like Rui Costa as Netzer replacement think they are a bit similar in style and would combine well with Beckenbauer.

 

[harms]

No Netzer or Muller? I'm disappointed.

They obviously get in if you include those that they’ve played with — but Invictus left them out, which is more fun

 

[Himannv]

Something like this I think.

Netzer and der Bomber are definite starters. Can't think of better options than them and especially in the case of der Bomber you can't really upgrade him, especially in a German set up.

Can replace Blokhin perhaps but I like his presence on that left flank and his movement, especially running into channels.

edit: disregard the forward arrow on Rijkaard, sharemytactics is playing tricks on me.

Fantastic lineup. I would probably have Vogts at RB. He can tuck in and cover for Beckenbauer when needed and also be a more stable option behind Rummenigge (who I'd expect to play further forward).

Thoughts on switching Netzer and Breitner? Emphasizes the Breitnigge link + it frees up a bit of space for Beckenbauer to step up and create since Breitner tends to drift further to the right quite often.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

 

[Enigma_87]

Fantastic lineup. I would probably have Vogts at RB. He can tuck in and cover for Beckenbauer when needed and also be a more stable option behind Rummenigge (who I'd expect to play further forward).

Thoughts on switching Netzer and Breitner? Emphasizes the Breitnigge link + it frees up a bit of space for Beckenbauer to step up and create since Breitner tends to drift further to the right quite often.

Yeah Vogts would also work pretty well, probably rate Carlos Alberto a tad more, but either of them would be at home in that set up.

Wanted to underline the Netzer / Kaiser link a bit more since the team is around Beckenbauer but ideally would be a great link if they are switched.

Beckenbauer played more to the right but would IMO be equally at home in the inside left channel.

 

[Physiocrat]

Interesting line up although I don't think you need Der Kaiser in a back 3 to get the best out of him but he'd certainly work well there. Not sure about Giggs and Beckham as wing-backs.

With Beckenbauer I think you want him to start either as a libero in a back 3, DC or DLP with two central players who remain at the back behind him. Beyond that I think the team and formation could be quite flexible. I suppose having more of an 8 than a classic 10 may be better as it doesn't require a deeper creative player who could clash with der Kaiser (I'm thinking of someone like Modric in a double pivot in a classic 4231)

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

- Beckenbauer in back 4 is fine.
- Surrounded by Maldini, Thuram and Desailly creates a stellar stable platform. Brehme plays attacking fullback and Thuram a defensive/balanced role.
- Nedved and Neeskens are high workrate and flair player who makes a flexible team and can cover for lack of proper #10.
- Messi in a drifting role to the right can drop back to link up and a more direct Stoichkov thread to link with Brehme.
- Luis Ronaldo to cap it off.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

I'm not convinced on Rijkaard/Beckenbauer combination. Both are all action midfielders and with Kaizer being the star man, a more defensive DM like Stiles or Desailly might be better suited imo.

 

[Isotope]

The way I see it, the Kaiser is basically a CM who can drop back as CB. But he's most and foremost a skillful CM who just loves to get involved in building attack. So two CBs are a must for him to shine.

The midfield has to have one controller, and one defensive. The attackers could be anyone on the GOATs though. I don't see any specific attackers that could bring the best of him.

 

[Don Alfredo]

The way I see it, the Kaiser is basically a CM who can drop back as CB. But he's most and foremost a skillful CM who just loves to get involved in building attack. So two CBs are a must for him to shine.

The midfield has to have one controller, and one defensive. The attackers could be anyone on the GOATs though. I don't see any specific attackers that could bring the best of him.

Why are two CBs a must when he was the best player in the world as a Libero in a back 4?

Many formations here have 2 CBs to make up for some gap he leaves behind and I guess this comes from the draft logic of having to build teams in anticipation of facing Ronaldo, Pele etc.

The beauty of Beckenbauer is that he gives the team so much from a libero position, he is the plus 1 all over the field. If you put a player into the side specifically to slot in as a CB again whenever he leaves his position, you actually don't gain any numerical advantage somewhere on the field.

I mean you can use him as a midfielder and he is simply fantastic there, but then skip the whole "5 man defence" thing or "Rikjaard dropping in".

Of course it is somewhat more adventurous with him as a libero in a back 4, but to win games you actually need to score goals and he is the man who will give you so much impact on that part of the equation that it is absolutely worth it, even when up against All-Time Greats like Cruyff.

 

[Isotope]

Why are two CBs a must when he was the best player in the world as a Libero in a back 4?

Many formations here have 2 CBs to make up for some gap he leaves behind and I guess this comes from the draft logic of having to build teams in anticipation of facing Ronaldo, Pele etc.

The beauty of Beckenbauer is that he gives the team so much from a libero position, he is the plus 1 all over the field. If you put a player into the side specifically to slot in as a CB again whenever he leaves his position, you actually don't gain any numerical advantage somewhere on the field.

I mean you can use him as a midfielder and he is simply fantastic there, but then skip the whole "5 man defence" thing or "Rikjaard dropping in".

Of course it is somewhat more adventurous with him as a libero in a back 4, but to win games you actually need to score goals and he is the man who will give you so much impact on that part of the equation that it is absolutely worth it, even when up against All-Time Greats like Cruyff.

Exactly I shared your sentiment about him as a midfielder. Have a regular back 4, then have him as a CM. To me, he's more of box to box. Not a dedicated CB, DM, AM, nor a controlling midfielder; that's if we want to get the best of him. Like you said, he can be an extra CB, or extra midfield, or extra attack. So it would be a pit to restrict him to certain role.

 

[Invictus]

Wrt. his apparent positioning, I've been watching a fair bit of De Jong in recent months, and just thought Beckenbauer could really do justice to the type of multi-faceted role he has for Netherlands or Ajax. Sounds blasphemous because De Jong is a nobody, but he was the one that immediately came to mind given his impact all over the pitch — really disorients the opposition because marking him is an impossible task (Pogba was asked to pay attention to him in stretches but De Jong's awareness of space and general movement bamboozled him), a factor in defense when he drops between Van Dijk and De Ligt — factor in midfield with his frequent runs and perceptive passing — and a factor towards the final third (though he isn't a significant scorer at this point) — essentially a dynamic box-to-box regista who wanders all over the pitch in a way he sees fit, if you will.



https://www.ajaxdaily.com/2018/the-genius-of-frenkie-de-jong/

Though again, it was an experimental thing — Frenkie is a nobody as a libero even though he's quite talented, and Beckenbauer could do things he can only dream of — and the latter would be perfectly at home in a Back-4, still influencing every facet of the team at the highest level possible (probably second to only Di Stéfano in that regard).

 

[Isotope]

--------- RvN
--------Ronaldo ----------------------
-----------------------------------Beckham
----Robson --------Scholes
-----Kaiser

-------Irwin --- Ferdinand -- Stam ---- Neville​

 

[Ecstatic]

A new video

 

[Synco]

Like others here, I disagree with the notion Beckenbauer was essentially a midfielder that was moved back to defense. In my eyes, his brilliance as a deep lying playmaker and box-to-box attacking threat somewhat overshadows the fact that he was a complete, world class central defender as well. I'd describe his traits like this: remarkable athlete, exceptionally fast and agile, great situational reading and anticipation, tall and good in the air*, a clean tackler and excellent interceptor, elegant and controlled, but well capable of projecting physicality and toughness when needed.

Today the roles of libero and stopper are unified in the modern central defender, and imo Beckenbauer was just that, 40-50 years ago. In today's football, he'd be the perfect - and I mean perfect - defender to play in a high line. Probably not quite so in a super-defensive/deep setup à la Atletico, although throughout the 70s Bayern regularly played exactly like that in tough away games and finals (always back 4), and Beckenbauer was a centerpiece of this as well.

So I don't think in a modern setting he'd need any special protection or special role to get the best out of him. Just put him in a back 4 designed for the team's playing style and let him pick his spots to move forward. @Don Alfredo has put it well, imo.

------
* Probably not measuring up to an elite stopper, though. On the other hand, his headed clearences were often controlled attempts to reach a teammate, which is great heading technique as well.

Late edit: Just found out Beckenbauer's height was only 1.81m, and Schwarzenbeck's 1.83m. Funny, going by the footage I had expected each one to be 3-4cm taller easily. So scrap the "tall" in the first paragraph.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Like others here, I disagree with the notion Beckenbauer was essentially a midfielder that was moved back to defense.

Yup. It was the other way around. Schulz was on form as sweeper and that meant Kaizer had to be shunted to midfield in 1966, where he again was brilliant.

Today the roles of libero and stopper are unified in the modern central defender,

Not sure on that. The position of libero is mostly dead. What we see is a very diluted version of a 'ball playing defender' who can actually pass from back, but way short of a libero.

 

[Synco]

Yup. It was the other way around. Schulz was on form as sweeper and that meant Kaizer had to be shunted to midfield in 1966, where he again was brilliant.

Came across a Beckenbauer quote recently, him looking back at his playing days:

"Midfield wasn't alright with me, it was man marking back then. I didn't like it when someone chased after me for 90 minutes and kicked my ankles*. That didn't comply with my idea of football. That's why the libero position was just right."

At one point he even hinted at early retirement from the NT if he was played in midfield much longer, although I guess that was likely just politics.

Not sure on that. The position of libero is mostly dead. What we see is a very diluted version of a 'ball playing defender' who can actually pass from back, but way short of a libero.

Okay, when you put it like that, you're certainly right. And the man-marking stopper is dead too.

What I meant is that today the concept of two specialists - one for subduing the oppo's prime attacker, another for sweeping and buildup play - is largely obsolete, and ideally both central defenders should be able to do it all at a high level. Players will always have different strengths and weaknesses of course, so in a watered-down way I still see "stopper" and "libero" types of CBs, even if these tactical roles don't exist anymore.

For example, players like Ramos, David Luiz and Boateng can push up unusually high into the opponent's territory with the ball. And, as others have said, Frenkie de Jong is a very interesting young player in that regard.


*for German speakers: Haxen

 

[Deleted member 101472]

I'd go for this. Pretty much impenetrable defensively, and freedom for Der Kaiser to step up into a midfield which would dictate the play against pretty much any opposition you could put it against.