All time British/Irish fantasy draft, Q-F: Chester vs Stob

Who will win assuming all players are at their peak?


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crappycraperson

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........................Team Chesterlestreet..................................................................Team Stobzilla..........................................
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Chester's tactics -

As hinted at in the main thread, this is a lopsided affair: Symmetry is for girls. The key role here is that of Duncan Edwards: He will be tasked with two things: A) To keep an eye on Johnstone, my worthy opponent's most dangerous player and cause problems for him whenever he's on the ball in my half. And B) To venture forward and combine with John Barnes (and Johnny Haynes, for that matter) when my team have the ball.

This means he'll have to run his arse off. Luckily the latter will be no problem for him. In terms of stamina, will, mental fortitude (and so forth), I doubt there will be a player on the pitch who can match him. His role? That of a defensive midfielder who ventures forward a bit – and who has a special, purely defensive assignment. A big role for a big player.

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Defence: An Italian job, if you will. Three more or less central defenders and a side back. The easiest way to look at the three CBs is to regard Woodburn and Wright as stoppers and Franklin as a sweeper – or indeed a bit of a libero, because Franklin will have a bit of license here to push up (both in order to check the progress of runners/break up play and to carry the ball out of defence himself. His on-the-ball skills and his reading of the game makes him an ideal choice for this somewhat “un-British” sort of role. Pat Rice plays the side back role – and he will simply play his natural game, that of a well rounded right back: He will push forward at times to assist Jackson, but his main job will be to keep tabs on my opponent's left sided attacker.

Duncan Edwards has been mentioned already – the roles of Pat Crerand and Johnny Haynes remain the same as they were in my group matches: Crerand holds, passes (with high precision), keeps things relatively simple. Haynes is the playmaker, pure and simple. He pings it wide – to Barnes and Jackson – and he pushes up to attempt deadly through balls for Dean, Jackson and Barnes to work with.

My wingers are John Barnes and Alec Jackson. Their task is both to create (cross the ball for Dean and whoever has managed to get into the box, combine with Dean and Haynes in more of a short-ball game) and to finish (get on the end of a Haynes through ball, a cross or a short ball from Dean).

Some background on Jackson, who is probably my least known player in this match:

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/blog/2014/nov/16/forgotten-story-alex-alec-jackson-scotland-chelsea

Up front: The man who once scored sixty goals in a single league season and who is as deadly with his head as he is with his feet. The part of Dean's game which is less obvious, but nevertheless important for me is his ability to combine with his fellow attackers, bring them into play by holding up the ball and release it with simple precision). Lastly I would also mention his mobility: He doesn't remain stationary in the box, like some robot waiting for the cross: He moves about constantly, even drifting wide (which makes combinations with Jackson and Barnes, who both like to cut inside, all the more effective – and harder to keep track on for my opponent's defenders).

Key word: Versatility.

Stob's tactics -
Tactics

Nothing remarkable about this side tactically, it is attacking, the full backs offer width and good delivery all day as well as the extra threat provided out wide with Johnstone and Gray also able to cut in quite comfortably, Giles would be the one to support the attack, dictating from deep and even further back, messers Hansen and Reid are also capable of switching and stretching play as they see fit.

Reid offers solidity in the midfield. Adams and Irwin upgrade on the two weakest positions in my side from the group stage.

Good luck to Chester

Stob's player profiles -
Ron Springett - England's number one shortly before the 1966 finals getting 33 caps, made 384 appearances for Sheffield Wednesday and is widely regarded by their fan base as their greatest ever goalkeeper.

Danny McGrain - 659 competitive games for Celtic between 1970 and 1987. He won seven League Championships, five Scottish Cups and two Scottish League Cups. McGrain is regarded as one of Scotland's greatest players and award winning sports writer Hugh McIlvanney commented, "Anybody who saw him at his best had the unmistakeable impression of watching a great player, probably one who had no superior anywhere in the world."

Alan Hansen - In Hansen's illustrious playing career for Liverpool, his winners medals include 8 league titles, 3 European Cups, 2 FA Cups and 4 League Cups. Perhaps the classiest defender in the draft capable of bringing the ball out of defence and more comfortable on the ball than most midfielders.

Tony Adams - One of England's best ever centrebacks, comfortable on the ball but solid as a rock defensively, leader of one of the greatest defensive units to grace the English game. He spent 14 years as Arsenal's captain and played 669 times for them. Winning 10 major honours.

Denis Irwin - 7/8/9 out of 10 Denis, whatever the actual rating, what isn't up for debate is that he is the most consistant full-back in this draft, a player who dealt with all threats that came his way, as well as creating a few of his own. His work rate and general quality make him perfect for virtually any set up.
Jimmy Johnstone - One the legendary "Lisbon Lions" and former 3rd place in European Footballer of the Year voting. He made 308 league appearances for Celtic, scoring 82 goals and playing a further 200+ in Cups and European Competition. Regarded as Celtic's best ever player.

One story goes that Johnstone had a fear of flying, Jock Stein told him that is they won their first leg european match against Red Star by more than 3 goals, he would not have to travel to Yugoslavia for the 2nd leg. He produced an outstanding performance scoring 2 and assisting the other 3 in a 5-1 victory.

Peter Reid - The heartbeat of arguably Everton's best ever side. A battler in the middle of the park with a fantastic passing range, he was once voted 4th in World Player of the Year behind Michel Platini, Preben Elkjar and Bernd Schuster. Not bad company. He was also voted 1985 PFA Players Player of the Year.

Johnny Giles - Amazingly calm player, who again, like Reid has a fantastic and creative passing range but can also handle himself when he needs to, one half of English footballs best club centre midfield partnerships. Their pairing helped yield several major trophies in the most successful era in Leeds' history. By strange coincidence, Giles and Bremner would both score exactly 115 goals for the club

Eddie Gray - In 1968 he was in the Leeds team which won the League Cup and the Fairs Cup double, scoring winning goals in both semi finals, including a memorable individual goal against Brian Clough's Derby County in the semi final of the League cup. He was then an important part of the team that won League championship a year later, making 33 appearances and scoring 5 goals, during a season in which United would score a record number of championship points and lose only two matches along the way to conquering the title. Voted 3rd greatest Leeds player of all time behind a certain Bremner and Charles.

"When he plays on snow, he doesn't leave footprints" - Don Revie

Teddy Sheringham - 898 appearances and 355 goals, with probably untold amounts of assists via quick thinking, flick ons and knock downs, Teddy provided the perfect foil for whichever striker he played with, unplayable on his day, both in the air and on the deck. Was finally named PFA Player of the year in 2001 and the age of 35 after just having his most accomplished season in a United shirt.

Alan Shearer - The last great English number 9. 734 games and 379 goals in all competitions. He resumes what is probably England's greatest strike duo with Teddy Sheringham. A scorer of all types of goals, but also brilliant at holding up play and bringing others into the game. When he hits them, they stay hit.
 
Interesting one this. Stobz has a nicely constructed side with no glaring weak links, and its easy to imagine how they'd play. Chester's set up will take me more time to suggest, but I liked the detailed description of Edwards brief and that nifty little moving animation of his positioning - busy with work my arse you rogue!
 
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I'm seeing a lot of joy for Johnstone and McGrain down the right hand side (Chester's left)

Could be, could be. Don't quite see it myself, obviously.

I reckon Edwards on Johnstone will cramp his style considerably. And I've got Woodburn to the left of my CB trio whose task is simply to stop whoever tries any funny stuff on his side. In short, I think your right side is great but I'm not really worried they'll run rampant here given the measures I've taken to contain 'em.

If you plan on doubling up on that side, you have Barnes to worry about too. He'll be very pleased should you lose the ball with both Johnstone and McGrain high up the pitch.
 
I'd be more concerned about the big pocket of space Sheringham can drop into or even Reid can push up into if Edwards is pulled out to your left.

He can cover a lot of ground certainly, that isn't up for discussion, but there are a lot of players in my side who are very useful on the ball, especially when given the time they look like they might have.
 
Aye, 'tis a fair point, that. However, I do have Franklin in that libero'esque role - and part of the thinking behind this is that he will push up into, let's say DM territory, both in an offensive (carrying the ball out) and a defensive (pushing up to intercept and make a nuisance of himself) capacity.

The approach is - at least ideally - a fluid one, with several players moving about quite a bit.
 
Two very strong teams here and it goes down to personal preference much. For me that means Franklin and Haynes securing the midfield battle for Chester. Stobz has a great partnership up front with two strong wingers and he'll be able to use it for a goal maybe two even.

But Chester just looks very likely to score here with such a controlling tactic and offensive position.
 
Gone for Stobz. Think Chester's underestimated the opposing right flank with McGrain (the best right-back) and Johnstone (one of the trickiest wingers) doubling up against Barnes (who won't have much appetite to track back) and Edwards (who, with the best will in the world, can't be in two places at once). In Chester's favour I'm a big fan of Franklin and Woodburn and can see that trio doing well against Shearer.
 
Voted Chester.

Love the McGrain/Johnstone combo, but they are against Barnes and Edwards. And then they have Woodburn as final resort at the back. I think Chester has a edge there. I also think Chester will have a bit more in possession and that will help out considerably.

Gio's defence is phenomenal but I fancy Chester to nick a goal. This will be a 1-0 ET game
 
Gone for Stobz. Think Chester's underestimated the opposing right flank with McGrain (the best right-back) and Johnstone (one of the trickiest wingers) doubling up against Barnes (who won't have much appetite to track back) and Edwards (who, with the best will in the world, can't be in two places at once). In Chester's favour I'm a big fan of Franklin and Woodburn and can see that trio doing well against Shearer.

Fair enough.

I don't quite get the logic, though. If anything they're doubling up on Edwards and Woodburn - not Barnes. I'm not expecting Barnes to do much defending. Edwards is ON Johnstone when the latter has the ball - that's the idea. And I play an Italian style back four with Woodburn to the left. If Johnstone and McGrain intend to combine on the right, they're up against (to put it like that): A) Barnes (who is fairly useless defensively, granted), B) Edwards (who falls back into some sort of left back position, tracking Johnstone and C) Woodburn (who plays as an LCB).

I fail to see how this set-up is to Stobz' advantage. And as mentioned above, if he intends to unleash McGrain here, he needs to worry about Barnes: Who's taking care of Barnes if he loses possession with both Johnstone and McGrain involved in doubling-up?
 
Voted Chester.

Love the McGrain/Johnstone combo, but they are against Barnes and Edwards. And then they have Woodburn as final resort at the back. I think Chester has a edge there.

I also think Chester will have a bit more in possession and that will help out considerably.

Thank you, sir - and the bit in bold is precisely what I'm referring to above.
 
Love the idea behind Chester's set up but can't see it working too well imho.

Granted, playing Edwards there in combination with Woodburn as a lcb can help nullify Stob's strongest attacking area but it leaves the midfield a tad bit short tbh. I can't see Haynes (a luxury attacking playmaker) and Crerand holding their own against Giles and Reid (since Edwards will be primarily busy with Johnstone when without the ball) even with the occasional help from Franklin*. I just think it sacrifices too much to nullify that right wing duo.

I think playing with an orthodox left back in place of Woodburn would be the best way to go about imo. Edwards as a left mid box to box, would still be able to help his lb with Johnstone whilst having more freedom to help the midfield and surge forward as Johnstone isn't his prime concern. You'd also back Franklin-Wright duo to shine and you aren't losing too much from reverting Franklin to a CB as he can still contribute to build up play and already has a fantastic midfield trio ahead of him who won't need the extra body or the passing nous.

Still it's a great set up and could have seen it working if there was someone with more graft was in that AM position (Gazza, Charlton etc) instead of Haynes, who would have been better able to transition to a midfield duo of sorts when Edwards is out left dealing with Johnstone. That is my only gripe with the current set up.

Franklin would be quite brilliant as a libero and is amongst the finest ball playing defenders in this draft.

*I guess his exact role here also makes a significant difference to the midfield dynamics. Does he have enough freedom to push forward aggressively without the ball to aid the midfield (leaving Woodburn to focus more on their striker instead of Johnstone) or does he push forward only with the ball (leaving his backline more secure against Stob's strikers and giving Woodburn more freedom to focus on Johnstone)? You did allude to this in your write up but would prefer more clarification on this @Chesterlestreet
 
Gone for Stobz. Think Chester's underestimated the opposing right flank with McGrain (the best right-back) and Johnstone (one of the trickiest wingers) doubling up against Barnes (who won't have much appetite to track back) and Edwards (who, with the best will in the world, can't be in two places at once). In Chester's favour I'm a big fan of Franklin and Woodburn and can see that trio doing well against Shearer.

I don't think he's underestimated it as such, but I'm still trying to wrap my head around his plan for dealing with it. He's effectively giving his best player, a super-talented but inexperienced 21 year old, a tactically demanding role that will pull him out of the area of the pitch where he's most effective for long periods. I can see a worryingly big gap between Crerand and Haynes too if Edwards ends up spending too much time on the left. I'm going to wait and see how the debate plays out before deciding anything, but my initial thoughts are that Chester might just be weakening a midfield area that he should have had an advantage in.

EDIT: What Joga said basically!
 
Love the idea behind Chester's set up but can't see it working too well imho.

Granted, playing Edwards there in combination with Woodburn as a lcb can help nullify Stob's strongest attacking area but it leaves the midfield a tad bit short tbh. I can't see Haynes (a luxury attacking playmaker) and Crerand holding their own against Giles and Reid (since Edwards will be primarily busy with Johnstone when without the ball) even with the occasional help from Franklin*. I just think it sacrifices too much to nullify that right wing duo.

I think playing with an orthodox left back in place of Woodburn would be the best way to go about imo. Edwards as a left mid box to box, would still be able to help his lb with Johnstone whilst having more freedom to help the midfield and surge forward as Johnstone isn't his prime concern. You'd also back Franklin-Wright duo to shine and you aren't losing too much from reverting Franklin to a CB as he can still contribute to build up play and already has a fantastic midfield trio ahead of him who won't need the extra body or the passing nous.

Still it's a great set up and could have seen it working if there was someone with more graft was in that AM position (Gazza, Charlton etc) instead of Haynes, who would have been better able to transition to a midfield duo of sorts when Edwards is out left dealing with Johnstone. That is my only gripe with the current set up.

Franklin would be quite brilliant as a libero and is amongst the finest ball playing defenders in this draft.

*I guess his exact role here also makes a significant difference to the midfield dynamics. Does he have enough freedom to push forward aggressively without the ball to aid the midfield (leaving Woodburn to focus more on their striker instead of Johnstone) or does he push forward only with the ball (leaving his backline more secure against Stob's strikers and giving Woodburn more freedom to focus on Johnstone)? You did allude to this in your write up but would prefer more clarification on this @Chesterlestreet

Fair points.

1. I don't disagree with your LB (rather than LCB) argument but at the moment I can't get around the national quota in that respect. I could have played Byrne at LB and Franklin + Wright in the middle, but they're all English, so that's a no-go. Woodburn is extremely solid in a purely defensive sense, though, so in terms of simply defending myself against the right threat, he does nicely.

2. The midfield "battle" will have to be what it is, as it were. I lose something from giving Edwards that special assignment, there's no question about that, but I believe it's worth it. And part of the plan is, as stated, that Edwards will be able to make some surges forward in addition to his defensive duties: When I win the ball back, he won't remain on Johnstone. It involves him working extremely hard, naturally, but I do believe he's capable of that.

3. Haynes may be a luxury player (I wouldn't call him that myself, but I take your point) but he's an extremely dangerous man to leave unchecked: And I don't see how Stobz can bother him to any great extent unless his CM duo (Reid, mainly, I would imagine) are tasked with doing some sort of job on him: And that means they're less free to win the "battle" against Edwards and Crerand.
 
I would also restate that Franklin's role here will influence this midfield struggle. He isn't just an extra body in defence, he has a clear function which also involves him operating higher up the pitch, i.e. in a DM sort of territory.
 
1. I don't disagree with your LB (rather than LCB) argument but at the moment I can't get around the national quota in that respect. I could have played Byrne at LB and Franklin + Wright in the middle, but they're all English, so that's a no-go. Woodburn is extremely solid in a purely defensive sense, though, so in terms of simply defending myself against the right threat, he does nicely.


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Damn you crappy.


Hate the rule myself but understandable why he implemented it.


Fair enough then.
And part of the plan is, as stated, that Edwards will be able to make some surges forward in addition to his defensive duties: When I win the ball back, he won't remain on Johnstone. It involves him working extremely hard, naturally, but I do believe he's capable of that.

If anyone could pull off that role it's Edwards and he's capable of doing it like you've stated. I'm fairly convinced he can keep tabs on Johnstone but had slight reservations to how much he could influence the midfield battle with such a significant and specialized defensive job on his hands. Tbf I should cut him some slack as he was a special player capable of fulfilling such exacting duties.

I would also restate that Franklin's role here will influence this midfield struggle. He isn't just an extra body in defence, he has a clear function which also involves him operating higher up the pitch, i.e. in a DM sort of territory.

Cheers for clarifying that. Makes more sense to play him as an aggressive libero to aid the midfield and agree with his role.

Giles would be the one to support the attack, dictating from deep and even further back, messers Hansen and Reid are also capable of switching and stretching play as they see fit
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After reading Stob's tactics further it does seem like he's playing an overly deep midfield duo who won't really have the opportunity to exploit that potential weakness in the middle (imo at least).

His tactics seem to rely on his wings and I guess it allows you more leeway to execute your Edwards plan as your central midfield wouldn't be found wanting defensively against two positionally conservative midfielders and his set up means Johnstone does deserve the special attention that you've delegated him with.

Naturally this means Haynes won't have that much freedom but it kind of reinforces your 3rd point that there won't be too much of a battle, for Stob to gain a significant advantage in midfield.
 
This is one of the best ones yet. Very tough to decide, will vote later after re-reading posts again.
 
@Joga Bonito

"Deep" is probably a poor choice of words RE:Giles I meant obviously deeper than Sheringham, he basically isn't rampaging into the box but still quite advanced when he can be.

Could you clarify your midfield duo's roles further seeing as the rest of your team is fairly self explanatory. Are you letting both your CMs loose ala Scholes-Keane with equal attacking and defensive responsibilities for the both of them? Or are you playing Reid as more of a holding presence with Giles being the box to box of sorts? Cheers
 
Tough game to call this. I must admit the Sheringham and Reid choices pushed me towards Chester... I think quality of his team throughout is rock solid but I do love Stobz set up its so simple but effective.
 
Stobz' team has gone a bit stale and doesn't look much improved for the quarters. Chester looking better, with some great players in key roles/battles.

His left flank worries me, but while Johnstone had a good peak scoring season in 67 (1 in 2) he wasn't all that prolific in almost every other season including either side of that one (and I generally take peak as the average of a three year period). The main concern should be who he could assist and I reckon that is well taken care of. One goal tops, and I think Chester will match that and has a good chance of exceeding it.