Ability to full appreciate ball possession.

devilish

Juventus fan who used to support United
Joined
Sep 5, 2002
Messages
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In my opinion, England's biggest issue is their inability to fully appreciate how important ball possession is. Retaining the ball is almost everything. It dictate the tempo and it strips opposition of its say in the game and on it becoming a threat. Last game it was a classic to that. Top players like Foden and Bellingham ended up like headless chickens chasing the ball. Barcelona and Bilbao did the same to us a few years back and with way better players then England has.

England think that ball possession is a nice to have thing and that there's an alternative to it. It really does not. Hoofing the ball up like Pickford like to do and relying on pace and moments might get you a goal if you're lucky but most of the time it is counterproductive as it gives opponents the opportunity to hold the ball and control the game.

England's DNA was a revolutionary on the pitch and had provided England with an exciting pool of players. Its time for the FA to take the same brave decisions off the pitch as well. English football need a mentality change that goes beyond that of replacing the manager (who should be sacked btw because he's awful)
 
Was saying this in a coaching group chat and the view.was.unanimous. A lot of work has gone in to bridge the technical gaps that we had vs. the very top nations. However, we are still not brave enough to actually try and play them.

Last night was just depressing to watch from an England point of view, a lot of technical ability and players who play under some of the best Head Coaches in the world, all undermined by hoof and hope tactics.

Dire. It needs someone like Potter or Lee Carsley in next.
 
So, idiotic team selection and tactics had nothing to do with it? It was all about "lack of appreciation of ball possession" by some of the best players in the world who clearly have skills from their club careers to understand ball possession, regardless of which manager they play for?

Doesn't sound plausible
 
England biggest issue is they (players? manager?) still think a player with the ball travels faster than when the ball is being passed on the ground. Part of the reason might be they are not trained to move the ball fast and still manage to get away with this 9/10 times just because they have far superior players, but once they face a quality opponent they look out of depth.

Similar issued to ETH United, they beat teams they are expected to beat anyway, but replace the coach with any other random guy and they will play no worse.
 
England have more technical players than before but still don't have any/many passing maestros. Rice is excellent defensively and carries the ball with power but can't be a metronome like passer. Mainoo is the closest but his best attributes is his ball control and movement rather than incisive passing. Trent is a long ball merchant, there's arguably a CM there but never in a two. Foden is a dribbler/goalscorer. Bellingham is a dribbler/goalscorer. Palmer is a dribbler/goalscorer. Saka is a dribbler/goalscorer. Grealish is a dribbler/non-goalscorer. Rashford is a dribbler/streaky-goalscorer. Gordon is a runner. Bowen is a non-dribbling goalscorer. Kane is alright-feet-for-a-big-man these days.

A better manager could get more out of them than Gareth but still feel its missing a midfield metronome and/or an incisive assister. Look at these guys' club teams and see who makes those sides tick. Rodri, Silva, De Bruyne, Odegaard, Bruno, Kroos etc. Arguably Maddison should have been in the squad but Southgate wouldn't have known how to use him anyway.

The team tactics is another issue a new manager could help with, but no manager could get this crop of players moving the ball with the skill and comfort that the Spanish do. It's not in their makeup. Better off looking for a manager who can prep a high intensity, well-drilled unit that can press and counter.
 
I don't think it's just about appreciation of the possession game, it's about controlling the tempo and flow of the game in top of that. Obviously the Spanish play a different game and they have a style that is patient and they will wait for openings. They'll pick and choose the right moments to play through the lines, speed up the play and slow it down and recycle the ball

England can play a possession game, but it'll be sideways and backwards. With no attempts to get between the lines. Last night they went from 0 to 100 and back to 0 in the same phases of play, with little to no plan as to what is going to happen. When they did speed it up to put Spain under pressure, but they'd lose the ball rather than turn back and try and pick a different avenue of attack.

Personally, I also think it's goes beyond football, Spanish players are naturally more fluid in their body movements. That's why in tight areas and and positions where it's difficult to control the ball their players are much more capable and able to adapt to the quick body movements required. Vast majority of England's players are planks in comparison and the ball gets away from them or bounces off them.
 
Trequarista10 said:
England have more technical players than before but still don't have any/many passing maestros. Rice is excellent defensively and carries the ball with power but can't be a metronome like passer. Mainoo is the closest but his best attributes is his ball control and movement rather than incisive passing. Trent is a long ball merchant, there's arguably a CM there but never in a two. Foden is a dribbler/goalscorer. Bellingham is a dribbler/goalscorer. Palmer is a dribbler/goalscorer. Saka is a dribbler/goalscorer. Grealish is a dribbler/non-goalscorer. Rashford is a dribbler/streaky-goalscorer. Gordon is a runner. Bowen is a non-dribbling goalscorer. Kane is alright-feet-for-a-big-man these days.

A better manager could get more out of them than Gareth but still feel its missing a midfield metronome and/or an incisive assister. Look at these guys' club teams and see who makes those sides tick. Rodri, Silva, De Bruyne, Odegaard, Bruno, Kroos etc. Arguably Maddison should have been in the squad but Southgate wouldn't have known how to use him anyway.

The team tactics is another issue a new manager could help with, but no manager could get this crop of players moving the ball with the skill and comfort that the Spanish do. It's not in their makeup. Better off looking for a manager who can prep a high intensity, well-drilled unit that can press and counter.
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This. Also whole of Spain team is technically gifted and looks comfortable with the ball and their passing. Even defenders, let alone midfield. Wingers can dribble, attack, but are good with passing and playing defense too. As you said only player in England team who is close to being good in passing is Mainoo. Spanish players even when they're under pressure can make an incisive, accurate pass.
 
izec said:
Same applies to United.
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Unfortunately so. Both sides have the same sort of personnel issues in central areas and playing short quick passes to circulate the ball quickly. Doesn’t really sound like we’re much bothered about rectifying that either with all the noise being CBs and strikers.
 
Regulus Arcturus Black said:
England have tended to dominate possession in most games.
Spain are just a much better side, and England are hampered by poor negative tactics.
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England don't in the big games though. The crunch games. Spain, Italy and Croatia all had more of the ball.
 
Foden was Player of the Season in the Premier League. Bellingham was MVP in La Liga. Kane scored a ton of goals in the Bundesliga. Rice was one of Arsenal's best players.

All of these players don't suddenly become shit overnight. It's all Southgate and his inept setup and cowardly tactics. He successfully makes the team lesser. You would probably do better with no coach instead and just letting these players do it themselves.
 
devilish said:
In my opinion, England's biggest issue is their inability to fully appreciate how important ball possession is. Retaining the ball is almost everything. It dictate the tempo and it strips opposition of its say in the game and on it becoming a threat. Last game it was a classic to that. Top players like Foden and Bellingham ended up like headless chickens chasing the ball. Barcelona and Bilbao did the same to us a few years back and with way better players then England has.

England think that ball possession is a nice to have thing and that there's an alternative to it. It really does not. Hoofing the ball up like Pickford like to do and relying on pace and moments might get you a goal if you're lucky but most of the time it is counterproductive as it gives opponents the opportunity to hold the ball and control the game.

England's DNA was a revolutionary on the pitch and had provided England with an exciting pool of players. Its time for the FA to take the same brave decisions off the pitch as well. English football need a mentality change that goes beyond that of replacing the manager (who should be sacked btw because he's awful)
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It's also to do with forward passing and using the ball to move forward. Several times we've seen England do backwards and sideways passing. Players pass forward regularly for their clubs but tactically England were inept.
 
I’m not sure, I feel this Spain team are very vulnerable to a team who has a rapid front three and can press decently well. England even playing quite poorly had decent chances, i don’t think there’s a need to become more like them we just need to stop being so reactive and cautious in how we play.
 
England finished fourth in the possession stats at the end of the tournament. In fact, they were pretty close to Spain (3rd) until the final. Portugal topped the possession stats and they looked toothless throughout the tournament.

Another interesting fact is that, when it comes to medium and long range passes, the top two teams were England and... Spain.

This Spanish side is different to the one that dominated the scene a decade ago. There's no question that the feel more comfortable with the ball and when they're defending through possession, but the key element to their success are high pressures and recoveries in the attacking half. Not ball retention, as they're more direct in their attacking style.

I'd say it's more about being positive with the ball at your feet and have your rest defence set up properly to help you hit the opposition either by adding up the pressure in the attacking third yourself or by hitting in transition. Portugal, England and France had good possession stats but: a) Portugal were constantly crossing the ball in the box, b) France were hoping for Mbappe to pull a rabbit out of the hat and c) England had no clear plan whatsoever.

For example, Saka, who showed that he can create attacks on the left, was ignored for huge periods in every game. In contrast, Spain made the most if both their wingers. The experiment on the left side never really worked, although the ball was going there quite often. Why's that, no one knows. Kane, Foden and Bellingham, all dropping deep with no one running in-behind was an exercise in futility. Tuchel and Carlo offered the blueprints on how to use Kane and Bellingham properly.

Against a team courageous enough on the ball (Germany), Spain looked quite vulnerable when they couldn't use their high press (no one can do it for 90 minutes). And their go-to tactic, in those periods, was to sit back, not ball possession (thus their high long ball numbers). France and England weren't able to take advantage of that. When Palmer equalized, for a brief moment, it looked like the tide of the game was turning. Then, England decided to stay back and play to find another moment instead of mounting up the pressure. Not (just) possession, rhythm and tempo of passing. These things matter the most

Which shows how football has changed since both Deschamps and Southgate were players. You can still ein big at NT level by being ultra conservative, but the teams that want to attack also have the tactics and the players to achieve success.
 
Marwood said:
England don't in the big games though. The crunch games. Spain, Italy and Croatia all had more of the ball.
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Yet every single player pretty much plays in heavy possession based sides.

Saka though doesn’t play as a wing back for Arsenal, none of them play club football with three at the back.
Trent has the best delivery in the squad, but only got minutes as a fecking central midfielder.

Our tactics under Southgate have always been negative, he wants possession, but he sets up his team so negatively that against decent sides we get swarmed.
 
Trying to play like Spain wouldn’t have worked for England, the Spanish midfielders took 40m+ balls launched by Simon on the half turn, controlled it in 1 touch and lay it off in the next pass multiple times in the game, that’s the kind of technical prowess and confidence England players don’t have.

What they have in spades is physical qualities, so they could’ve feasibly play a Liverpool style game with heavy pressing, use TAA as a creator from deep and get Gordon and Saka running at players, with Toney/Watkins occupying the defenders for an out ball. Instead, they parked the bus with Kane Bellingham Foden stepping on each other foot looking for hoofs from T-Rex.
 
Regulus Arcturus Black said:
Yet every single player pretty much plays in heavy possession based sides.

Saka though doesn’t play as a wing back for Arsenal, none of them play club football with three at the back.
Trent has the best delivery in the squad, but only got minutes as a fecking central midfielder.

Our tactics under Southgate have always been negative, he wants possession, but he sets up his team so negatively that against decent sides we get swarmed.
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With you on Southgate being the primary problem.

But Bellingham has been used up top a lot for Madrid. Foden isn't the guy responsible for City's possession, he's a final third type player. Saka has only been ok for Arsenal this season. Rice got shifted away from the No.6 position by Arteta.

They and a few others are not generally the players responsible for their clubs possession game.
 
Marwood said:
With you on Southgate being the primary problem.

But Bellingham has been used up top a lot for Madrid. Foden isn't the guy responsible for City's possession, he's a final third type player. Saka has only been ok for Arsenal this season. Rice got shifted away from the No.6 position by Arteta.

They and a few others are not generally the players responsible for their clubs possession game.
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What on Earth does responsible for their club’s possession mean? You think just one or two players are key?

You think City minus Rodri suddenly stop keeping possession because now they are stuck with Foden, Stones, Walker, Haaland and the famously low possession holder KDB? Likewise if you stuck Rodri in United’s midfield we don’t suddenly become a good possession team.

Nar mate, the entire team and setup is responsible.
 
Throughout the tournement we have been fine at keeping the ball (although we struggled last night)

Our issues isn’t possession it’s been transition.

We never got the ball moving fast enough which played into Spain’s hands.

Kane couldn’t hold up anything or run in behind so we had no options to be their press.

Should have stayed with the 5-3-2
 
Regulus Arcturus Black said:
What on Earth does responsible for their club’s possession mean? You think just one or two players are key?

You think City minus Rodri suddenly stop keeping possession because now they are stuck with Foden, Stones, Walker, Haaland and the famously low possession holder KDB? Likewise if you stuck Rodri in United’s midfield we don’t suddenly become a good possession team.

Nar mate, the entire team and setup is responsible.
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Well different players have different roles yes? I don't think that's an earth shattering observation. But obviously I'm not saying one player is 100% the reason a team looks after the ball either.

The players England have, particularly in midfield, aren't the guys who really make their clubs teams tick. In terms of controlling the ball, knowing how and when to slow it down and speed it up. That's just a reality.

If City swapped Rodri and and Silva for Rice and Bellingham would they dominate possession as they do? Course not. Different players. Different styles.

Bellingham was just outright sloppy on the ball last night. That was a player issue not a manager issue.

Ultimately England like United are stuck playing a football that's neither here nor there. Trying to play like Spain but without players who have the brain to do so.
 
Marwood said:
.

If City swapped Rodri and and Silva for Rice and Bellingham would they dominate possession as they do?.
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Looking at Guardiolas record, yes they would. They’d be coached to do so else they’d be benched for not following instructions.
That’s clear as day. But could City do it? Absolutely, they’ve played some mad players in midfield at times during Guardiola’s reign and still manage it.
 
Regulus Arcturus Black said:
Looking at Guardiolas record, yes they would. They’d be coached to do so else they’d be benched for not following instructions.
That’s clear as day. But could City do it? Absolutely, they’ve played some mad players in midfield at times during Guardiola’s reign and still manage it.
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I don't know, this to me is believing players don't make a difference.

If you think swapping Rice for Rodri makes no difference you have to wonder why Pep and all the best managers spend fortunes on players. Why not just as you say coach a cheaper player.
 
Marwood said:
I don't know, this to me is believing players don't make a difference.

If you think swapping Rice for Rodri makes no difference you have to wonder why Pep and all the best managers spend fortunes on players. Why not just as you say coach a cheaper player.
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Pep wanted Rice and bid £100m for him.
 
Who's Kissing Cameras? said:
Pep wanted Rice and bid £100m for him.
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I'm not sure what relevance that has to this discussion. Same club/manager spent £50 million on Kalvin Phillips and never played him.

Do you think City bidding for Rice means he's as good as Rodri?

Guys Rice's club manager has moved him away from the No.6 position. Why do we think that is?
 
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It's mental that Southgate ignored the crystal palace lad who should have been given minutes in the friendlies or group stages at the very least, he is the closest thing we have to a in form deep lying playmaker but no, no Southgate has his favourites that are almost undroppable despite bang average performances throughout the tournament.
 
It's also kind of staggering that among all the top managers in the big 5 leagues there is pretty much only Eddie Howe and he was barely better than ten Hag last season. Given the amount of players that are rated among the best in the world it's pretty obvious that the quality of your head coaches or managers is falling off quite significantly.

I think this is something you need to look at, the mindset and tactical thinking of your head coaches and managers.
 
NoLogo said:
It's also kind of staggering that among all the top managers in the big 5 leagues there is pretty much only Eddie Howe and he was barely better than ten Hag last season. Given the amount of players that are rated among the best in the world it's pretty obvious that the quality of your head coaches or managers is falling off quite significantly.

I think this is something you need to look at, the mindset and tactical thinking of your head coaches and managers.
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This is a complicated issue. I'd agree that the continental manager development programs seem to be light-years ahead, and England are trying to catch up with the opening of St George's Park. Another thing is a result of being the richest league in the world by a country mile. Why take a risk to develop anything when you can simply reach into your pocket and purchase the ready-made and best in class product? There's also little faith in English managers who do considerably well in the lower divisions/lower half of the PL. You'd think that McKenna, for instance, would have PL clubs looking to sign him after back-to-back promotions as an outsider. Eddie Howe, as you mentioned, is the exception, but you also feel that he'll be ditched when Newcastle will have the squad to push on for better things. Potter was never really given a chance at SB. One could argue that this creates a necessity to opt for a more conservative approach, if anything just to have a job.
 
Totally agree with this, and how others are saying it pertains to United. I'd say it's almost the acceptance of patience.

Spain and City are built on the concept of, imo, sterile domination. And that requires being totally fine with spending upwards of 2 or 3 minutes literally taking no risks with the ball. From a purely physiological point of view, it mentally and physically tires the defending side, leaving them more vunerable to attacks when (and if) they finally come.

But for both the players and the fans, you have to be happy to basically zone out of football for minutes at a time.

Personally I hate it. I watched the Euros and Copas recently, and the latter is an order of magnitude more fun as entertainment. Both teams constantly trying to get forward and score goals. Obviously the last decade plus has shown that control is more successful at delivering trophies, so I guess better in an objective sense. But it's not very much fun.

The worst is two teams that aspire to it but don't have the ability, so you just get negative, nothing football decided by a mistake or moment of genius.
 
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