A Consistent Back 4

Desert Eagle

Punjabi Dude
Joined
Sep 25, 2006
Messages
17,989
A lot of focus on where the goals will come from and rightly so but another area where we were wrecked last year was defensively. We had 69,000 different combinations at the back or a number close to it.

If we can get 35 plus games of Dalot-Yoro-Martinez-Shaw then we could be pretty good this season.

Two questions; Would that be your ideal back 4 as well and how many games do you reckon they play together?
 
Agree with this, without some consistency in defence it makes it very hard to build from. Further i think we get a lot of joy down the left and Shaw is effective going forward, having some consistency with him and Rashford out wide can only help going forwards too.

I agree with that back 4, however its a long season so do expect to see some rotation. I think we will bring in de Ligt and so i think both he and Maguire will feature regularly plus i think we'll manage Shaw's minutes carefully too.
 
When you have Shaw and Martinez who are very injury prone, you can't have a consistent back 4. Unless we sign new starting LB and LCB.
 
Dalot- De Ligt - Yorro - Martinez

With Martinez stepping in for De Ligt (being LCB though) if there is any injury. If Martinez is injured we have Shaw too. If both are injured we will need something but I assume a squad full back is coming this window.
 
Ideally we sign someone like De Ligt and Yoro isn't our first choice RCB this season. He's talented but he's still just a kid, at a club that already overplays some of its younger players.

In general terms though we can look at the team who are currently the ones to beat in the league, City. They had three defenders (Walker, Dias, Akanji) start 75-78% of their league games, with the 4th most frequently played being Ake at 63%.

To my mind that seems an fairly good representation of what we would ideally want in terms of the balance between consistency and rotation. 75% our first choice back four starting around 75% of the time.
 
A consistent back four capable of playing a higher line, would go a long way to solving the enormous gap in midfield for Mainoo/Casemiro to cover.

Which would also have a knock on effect for the attack...it just remains to be seen how much of an improvement that could make.
 
A consistent back four is the silver bullet for EtH IN supporters, and the lack of one the reason we were so poor last season. Nothing to do with kamikaze tactics...
Anyways, I hope these posters are correct: we have a consistent back four, play good football, all our problems disappear and we win everything.
 
I don't think any team has won the PL without a consistent back 4 and GK. It really is vital we try and achieve this.
 
A set of options that are all high quality and don't force us to dramatically alter our defensive approach based on who is available would be ideal, since that way we don't have to make sacrifices to the injury gods on the regular. I ran out of goats last year, as I'm sure many others did.
 
Need Martinez to sort out his injuries otherwise get another CB in.
 
Shaw - Licha - De Ligt - Dalot

Only one debatable in this is De Ligt, given how we haven't signed him, rest are 100% starters, any other alternative is wrong.

Dalot to play most games, followed by Licha. Yoro to start all Cup games and in rotation at RCB.
 
sullydnl said:
Ideally we sign someone like De Ligt and Yoro isn't our first choice RCB this season. He's talented but he's still just a kid, at a club that already overplays some of its younger players.

In general terms though we can look at the team who are currently the ones to beat in the league, City. They had three defenders (Walker, Dias, Akanji) start 75-78% of their league games, with the 4th most frequently played being Ake at 63%.

To my mind that seems an fairly good representation of what we would ideally want in terms of the balance between consistency and rotation. 75% our first choice back four starting around 75% of the time.
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Not sure why people keep saying/implying that we must sign another centre half to avoid overplaying Yoro. If we don’t sign another, we still have other senior centre halves. If you don’t want to play Yoro every game, then just play Maguire some games.
 
Rozay said:
Not sure why people keep saying/implying that we must sign another centre half to avoid overplaying Yoro. If we don’t sign another, we still have other senior centre halves. If you don’t want to play Yoro every game, then just play Maguire some games.
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Still need 4 real center back options, Evans is a 5th, and the assumption that Lindelof is probably leaving. Yoro I think we all reasonably assume he is only 18 so isn't ready to be the main guy, but who knows. Maguire would be the 4th.
 
Rooney in Paris said:
That's fine if you feel that freak injuries lead to that - that however doesn't make him injury prone, which is what you said.
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What was freakish about the injuries? You had me thinking if I searched I'd find a list of broken cheekbones and the like but the one I found is all problems with various parts of his legs, which without having any context to their cause certainly sounds typical of an injury prone footballer.
 
Dalot - Yoro - Martinez - Shaw: this is the strongest combination Utd currently have.

Personally, I think Luke Shaw is completely unreliable, and should have been upgraded/replaced 5-6 years ago, so it's remarkable that he's managed 10 seasons in a row as Utd's first choice left back (notwithstanding the Mourinho/Ashley Young days).

I truly belive that Utd need two high-profile, best-in-the-world, full backs. A £70m right back and a £70m left back are both necessary, as well as £35m back ups for each.

Wan-Bissaka, Dalot, Shaw and Malacia need to be all targeted for replacement/club exits in the next 12 months (next 2 if we're lucky).

Essentally it boils down to this - not one player currently at Utd is, in any way, likely to still be here and part of an ultimately successful team (win the league/champions league) at any point. So, we know that they all have to be replaced. The question is - how fast can it be done?

Tyler Malacia was the first guy that Ten Hag bought when he took the job. Once we get to the stage where he's gone, and everyone at the club before he arrived is gone - then we'll know we've made progress (of course, all the guys who came in after him, such as Casemiro, Anthony, Mount, Erikson, etc. need to go too).

We'll get there - it just needs a complete "Ship of Theseus" revamp of the club (as in... every single person, at every single position, in the club is replaced... and fast!).
 
DOTA said:
What was freakish about the injuries? You had me thinking if I searched I'd find a list of broken cheekbones and the like but the one I found is all problems with various parts of his legs, which without having any context to their cause certainly sounds typical of an injury prone footballer.
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I'm not sure if this is a serious question? He had a fractured metatarsal, which wasn't treated properly, had to undergo surgery again, then came back and had a big oaf fall on his knee in the most random of collisions towards the end of a game.

That's a year's worth of injuries and nothing of that is due to him being "injury prone"
 
Rooney in Paris said:
I'm not sure if this is a serious question? He had a fractured metatarsal, which wasn't treated properly, had to undergo surgery again, then came back and had a big oaf fall on his knee in the most random of collisions towards the end of a game.

That's a year's worth of injuries and nothing of that is due to him being "injury prone"
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Reckon I'm about as baffled by your stance as you seem to be at mine, here :lol:

I think I'll leave it!
 
Reiver said:
A consistent back four is the silver bullet for EtH IN supporters, and the lack of one the reason we were so poor last season. Nothing to do with kamikaze tactics...
Anyways, I hope these posters are correct: we have a consistent back four, play good football, all our problems disappear and we win everything.
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You don't have to be ETH in or out to understand how important having your best players fit is
 
The Uncle of All Uncles said:
Dalot - Yoro - Martinez - Shaw: this is the strongest combination Utd currently have.

Personally, I think Luke Shaw is completely unreliable, and should have been upgraded/replaced 5-6 years ago, so it's remarkable that he's managed 10 seasons in a row as Utd's first choice left back (notwithstanding the Mourinho/Ashley Young days).

I truly belive that Utd need two high-profile, best-in-the-world, full backs. A £70m right back and a £70m left back are both necessary, as well as £35m back ups for each.

Wan-Bissaka, Dalot, Shaw and Malacia need to be all targeted for replacement/club exits in the next 12 months (next 2 if we're lucky).

Essentally it boils down to this - not one player currently at Utd is, in any way, likely to still be here and part of an ultimately successful team (win the league/champions league) at any point. So, we know that they all have to be replaced. The question is - how fast can it be done?

Tyler Malacia was the first guy that Ten Hag bought when he took the job. Once we get to the stage where he's gone, and everyone at the club before he arrived is gone - then we'll know we've made progress (of course, all the guys who came in after him, such as Casemiro, Anthony, Mount, Erikson, etc. need to go too).

We'll get there - it just needs a complete "Ship of Theseus" revamp of the club (as in... every single person, at every single position, in the club is replaced... and fast!).
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I'm with you on we need to replace Shaw and AWB. Malacia too if what took him out for all of last season is reoccurring. I'm quite happy with Dalot though. He's not perfect but he's coming off a very good season where he won the players player of the year award and should have won the fan award too.
 
Consistent Back 4 and Shaw in one line doesn't make sense. Sorry.

Just sign a left back.
 
Desert Eagle said:
I'm with you on we need to replace Shaw and AWB. Malacia too if what took him out for all of last season is reoccurring. I'm quite happy with Dalot though. He's not perfect but he's coming off a very good season where he won the players player of the year award and should have won the fan award too.
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I suppose what I've said re: the whole squad/club can be viewed as entirely overboard/unrealistic - however, I do think that after last season (and, importantly, the few seasons leading up to it such as the Rangnick one) that the whole club is essentially unfit for purpose and needs a revamp.

I guess we're getting one, so fingers-crossed!
 
Ideally we have six top class defenders to rotate across the four spots, plus a few squad players to provide further backup.

Martinez
Yoro
De Ligt
Shaw
Dalot
Another fullback (preferably one who can play both sides, or perhaps one side plus also cover centreback)

There's so many games over the course of the season that we won''t be able to play the same four all the time even if we don't get injuries. Obviously Shaw in particular needs his minutes handled carefully, which ETH himself mentioned recently. We also shouldn't be overplaying Yoro at his age.
 
Gosh, some very negative comments here.

One opinion I couldn't disagree with is that Shaw needs to be replaced as he will never be a regular starter. A sub, maybe!

But replace everyone! My cognitive skills may be waning but it looks to me that the club is starting to build a group of young players with an eye to the future.

We do need a solid defence more than goals as 1 - 0 is always 3 points. I see a better season in 24/25.

My glass is 1/2 full.:)
 
Rooney in Paris said:
That's fine if you feel that freak injuries lead to that - that however doesn't make him injury prone, which is what you said.
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Let's see next season. You called it freak injuries/PL physicality/bad luck/injury prone and whatnot. But he has been injured quite a lot in his time here.
 
I'm cautiously optimistic that the injury situation improves under Ineos. However, even if we avoid another crisis, there will have to be several different combinations in the back line, over a whole season.

Shaw is great, for me, he's the best left back in the world, but if he could even play 30-35 games next season, I'd absolutely take that. Malacia is a decent back-up, if he returns to action this season, but he'll probably need easing in again. Martínez would be amazing at left-back, and I hope ETH plays him there as well next season, not at just LCB, especially if we sign a left-footed CB as well. Amass might get some minutes as well, although nothing significant. Probably just a few games like Kambwala last season, due to his age. I also suspect we might sign a new left-back, although I think it would be both expensive and an overkill to spend big on some huge talent or world class player in this position, with us already potentially having 4 players for the short-to-mid term here (Shaw, Malacia, Martínez, Amass). That's why my choice would be Sergio Reguilón. He was alright last season for us, and would likely be content with a back-up squad role at United. Would almost be a free signing and he's a good age as well to play back-up left-back for us for a few seasons. Wages would be reasonable as well. I think it's a great, risk-free squad building opportunity. If not Reguilón, then someone like Kadioglu or Mazraoui could be decent, a player that can take up both full-back positions.

Yoro could probably play 4000+ minutes next season, but I don't think he should just yet. He's a long-term project that needs phasing in. He's also a bit raw, and will make mistakes, will have bad performances, etc. He shouldn't be playing full seasons until age ~21 IMO.

Martínez and Dalot are now at the stage of their careers where 4000+ minutes shouldn't be a problem for them and the latter should have no problems achieving it again after doing it for the first time in his United career last season. Martínez is a question mark, a bit similar to Malacia in this regard: I don't think we can objectively label either of them injury prone yet. Sustaining a long-term injury doesn't equal that.

Our 2nd CB signing also needs to be someone whose age and development are at the stage where they can play most of the available minutes in a season without issues. I think both of our main CB targets in Branthwaite and de Ligt fit the bill in this regard.

It's obviously difficult to assess, given the unknowns for Shaw, Malacia, and Martínez, and the fact that we might sign 1, 2, or more defenders until the window closes...and we don't know who's leaving yet either. However, I think it's clear that the defenders with the most minutes next season, if all goes well, should be Dalot, new RCB, and Martínez...and the rest will take up rotational roles.
 
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Assuming we sign De Ligt, I think it's a good chance Martinez plays a lot at LB but tucks into LCB when we are attacking. Something like this, and then transitioning into the below when we have possession;

Onana
Dalot - Yoro - de Ligt - Martinez
Mainoo - Ugarte
Amad - Bruno - Garnacho
Zirkzee

Onana
Yoro - de Ligt - Martinez
Ugarte - Mainoo
Dalot - Amad - Bruno - Garnacho
Zirkzee​
 
Yakuza_devils said:
Let's see next season. You called it freak injuries/PL physicality/bad luck/injury prone and whatnot. But he has been injured quite a lot in his time here.
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I mean, if on the first day of the season, Tete breaks his ankle with an awful tackle, he takes 5 months to come back, plays a few games looking like his former self and then injures himself again because of an opponent's clumsy challenge, yeah, he'll also have "been injured a lot" but that won't mean he's injury prone. It might just be semantics, but there's a big difference between players having loads of muscle injuries and these types of players.
 
Xeque_279 said:
Shaw - Licha - De Ligt - Dalot

Only one debatable in this is De Ligt, given how we haven't signed him,
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Yeah I can't imagine it would go down too well with Bayern, or the Premier League to be fair, if we just started playing De Ligt.
 
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