70s Fantasy Draft QF2 - antohan v kps88

[Brwned]

Team antohan

I'm playing a 4-3-1-2 which could easily turn into a 4-3-2-1 as Forlán drops deeper to build up play alongside Zidane. Not that creativity is lacking in my midfield...

Kps will be outfought in the midfield battle as Luis Enrique-Simeone-Seedorf will be too much for Scholes and Gattuso to deal with.

His two wing players will not contribute much at all defensively, Arsenal bottling showponies that they are. Arsenal made Ljungberg look good, everywhere else he was shown up for the rather average player that he was. Pires was good though, but he is facing the best rightback in the draft in Javier Zanetti.

Simeone as a spare in that central midfield three can cover for either of the wider players when they attack the flank overlapping with my fullbacks or track their wingers if they are in possession.

Much will be made of the "proven partnership" between Yorke and Cole. Two angles on this:

Stats: if you take the peak scoring seasons for the front 6, kps has two 1 in 2 players, three 1 in 3 players and one that very rarely scores. An average of just over two goals a game. I have a 1 in 1 striker (Vieri managed that in two different seasons, teams and leagues), two 1 in 2s, a 1 in 3 and two 1 in 4s. An average of just under three goals a game. I'm happy to call that fairly even with a slight advantage on my side... but never a relative weakness.

Common sense: Vieri and Forlán never had as good a midfield behind them, while the Yorke and Cole partnership was fed by Beckham and Giggs, who were significantly better than what kps has. That should see my forwards outperform their peaks and Yorke and Cole underperform.

In fact, these guys were prone to off days (particularly Cole) and we know full well who would hide that: the baby-faced assassin, who isn't on kps' bench.

And there is an additional factor: my defence is much better... and I will have more of the ball.

Can't see kps winning this.

PLAYER PROFILES

Team kps88

Subs:

Jay Jay Okocha
Nicky Butt
Marek Jankulovski

Tactics: An old school, perfectly balanced 4-4-2. Scholes controls the tempo and pings it around at will. He is protected by Gattuso who does the dirty work, gets stuck in and intimidates the opposition midfield. Arsenal's proven combo of Ljunberg and Pires provide width and are capable of drifting inside as well. This will give Barcelona's proven full back combo of Sergi and Ferrer the space to get forward and make use of their crossing ability. Cole and Yorke, do what they do best - combination play and getting on the end of things.

Brad Friedel: Safe and reliable on a normal day, unbeatable on his best days (usually against United). A fantastic last line of defense.

Albert Ferrer: Represented Barcelona for almost a decade. Part of the famous Barcelona dream team that won 5 league titles and the European Cup, amongnst others. Was a pacy, tough tackling full back who could get forward.

Sergi Barjuán: Ferrer's partner on the other defensive wing. Comfortable on the ball and a great passer with over 250 caps for Barcelona.

Sol Campbell: Quality, hard defender. Made it into 3 PFA, a World Cup and a Champions League team of the year.

Ivan Cordoba: One of the quickest defenders around to compliment Campbell's strength. Over 300 caps for Inter and has won it all.

Freddy Ljunberg: Fantastic, pacy winger with a knack of scoring goals. Was named in the EPL Overseas Team of the Decade.

Paul Scholes: Ginger Prince. Legend. Will control the pace of the game in midfield and run the show.

Gennaro Gattuso: Fierce, hard working midfielder who never stops running. A fantastic tackler of the ball, he will do the dirty work in midfield and allow Scholes to flourish.

Robert Pires: Voted by Arsenal fans as their 6th greatest player of all time. Intelligent, two footed and a serious goal threat from midfield.

Andy Cole and Dwight Yorke: The telepathic, unstoppable partnership that won United the treble will be leading the line. Defenders beware.

Jay Jay Okocha (Sub): Magical at his best and a joy to watch. Can come on to add some creativity and flair to a tight game. Set piece specialist as well.

Nicky Butt (Sub): An often underrated component of the hugely successful United team of the 90s. Can come on to provide a bit of steel and legs to the midfield if needed.

Marek Jankulovski (Sub): Champions League and Serie A winner with over 100 caps for Ac Milan. A fantastic crosser of the ball.

 

[Cutch]

Went for Antohan. Think he's gonna be very hard to beat in this competition.

 

[Danny1982]

Antohan's team looks better, but of all former United players you picked Barthez and Forlan??!! (vs Scholes, Yorke and Cole)

Anyway, I'm going to vote against my heart. I'm not the biggest Zidane fan, but when he's in a team, it's hard to vote against it.

 

[kps88]

Hehe a lot of hyperbole by Antohan here.

His two wing players will not contribute much at all defensively, Arsenal bottling showponies that they are. Arsenal made Ljungberg look good, everywhere else he was shown up for the rather average player that he was. Pires was good though, but he is facing the best rightback in the draft in Javier Zanetti.

Are you calling the Arsenal team that won the double and went an entire season unbeaten "bottlers"? The same Pires that was voted Football Writers Player of the year and 3 times in the EPL team of the season ? The same Ljunberg that was included on the right hand side of the overseas EPL Team of the Decade? Both incredibly productive and anything but "showponies".

At their peak, both were proven world class wide players. Neither are typical wingers, which is what makes them so dangerous. Pires isn't going to directly run at Zanetti, he's going to float all over, find space and drag Zanetti all over with him.

Ljunberg didn't fare too well after he left Arsenal because he lost his pace. Nothing more. As far as this competition goes, he has searing pace and is easily the quickest player on the pitch.

Simeone as a spare in that central midfield three can cover for either of the wider players when they attack the flank overlapping with my fullbacks or track their wingers if they are in possession.

You have wide players overlapping with your full backs? I don't see any. If you're talking about Seedorf and Enrique going wide then its unfair to say its 3 against 2 in midfield.

In fact, these guys were prone to off days (particularly Cole) and we know full well who would hide that: the baby-faced assassin, who isn't on kps' bench.

Your analysis of Cole and Yorke is unnecessarily complicated. At their peak (99) they were unplayable. Its not simply about goal scoring stats, but combination play. They have proven chemistry. And if we're taking "off days" into account then its more than likely Montero or Simeone will lose their heads and get themselves sent off. Or Barthez will gift me a goal.

 

[kps88]

I hope people note my team chemistry. There's Yorke - Cole - Scholes, Campbell - Pires -Ljunberg, Sergi and Ferrer. All have played together for years and won a bucket load of trophies doing so.

 

[Cutch]

Antohan's team looks better, but of all former United players you picked Barthez and Forlan??!! (vs Scholes, Yorke and Cole)

Anyway, I'm going to vote against my heart. I'm not the biggest Zidane fan, but when he's in a team, it's hard to vote against it.

Yeah but if we take the red tinted specs off, Yorke and Cole as good as they were havn't won the European golden boot twice and top scored at a World Cup.

 

[Snow]

One thing Kps. Ljungberg. There are two g's in his name.

Your points are fair. Anto has little wingplay. He has Seedorf and Zidane in the middle and two very good strikers.

Anto mentioning the goal scoring stats, I'm surprised to see how that Vieri was always injured. He managed an average of 24 league games per season with Atletico, Lazio and Inter. That's 2 of every 3 league game that he took part in. That's besides the point of this thread since injuries don't matter. Just thought it was interesting.

Regarding the thread now. York and Cole is indeed a very good partnership. Prime Forlan and Vieiri is as well. You can pass the ball to them whenever.
Anto's midfield is great. Best player in the competition spearheading it.

For me Anto's weaknesses is lack of width and that his team looks fairly slow. The width with result in much fewer crosses and Vieiri was a man that liked to head the ball.

Kps' team doesn't seem to have glaring weaknesses but at the same time it doesn't excel either. It's balanced overall. Solid pair of center backs with one better than the other, same as Anto. Two good and capable full backs and again, one better than the other. So very similar defenses.

In terms of playing at their peak Barthez is a better keeper but it doesn't matter anyway. Friedel is in the other goal. I won't hold it against either of them. Keeper hasn't made the difference to me so far and won't do it either here.

Kps' has the same philosophy as myself. Play like Manchester United. He has the much used 4-4-2 version with Scholes in the middle and a counter part to balance him. Good wingers on either side. I take the more conservative 4-2-3-1 European style. Both good options I feel.

I find Anto's team to be better but Kps has better balance.

 

[kps88]

Can't disagree with anything there Snow.

I'm not going to knock any of Antohan's players as he's got some big hitters in there, but I personally feel that midfield won't work all that well, particularly if he's expecting them to provide width as he mentioned.

My team may not be as illustrious, but it makes up for that in chemistry and balance.

 

[Cutch]

I dont think width is that big a problem. He has 2 marauding fullbacks and Luis Enrique who's capable of playing anywhere. He also has Forlan who often comes in from the left.

 

[Snow]

The width is the problem. The marauding forwards both have very quick wingers against them. Candela has to deal with Ljungberg. Ljungbergs hugs the line all the time so he's never man marked. Then he's off. Full backs hate dealing with that kind. Zanetti would be more apt to deal with Ljunberg then Pires because he's smart like that and much better at 1v1's than Candela (I used to watch Roma back in the day when I watched Italian football).

I'm not so much worried by Anto's right. Zanetti is very good and Luis Enrique runs a lot and he's good on the right but he'll never have width on both sides unless he wants to gung-ho Kps.

 

[DanNistelrooy]

Antohan for me

 

[Cling Bak]

Vieri and Forlán never had as good a midfield behind them, while the Yorke and Cole partnership was fed by Beckham and Giggs, who were significantly better than what kps has. That should see my forwards outperform their peaks and Yorke and Cole underperform.

Even as a United fan, that's ridiculous.

I wouldn't call Beckham and Giggs 'significantly' better. I'd prefer the pair in an ideal (maybe even because I'm a United fan), but it's a close run thing. Pires & Ljungberg is a pair of devastating wingers.

Yorke and Cole would also be supplied by Scholes, which is a bonus.

 

[Danny1982]

Yeah but if we take the red tinted specs off, Yorke and Cole as good as they were havn't won the European golden boot twice and top scored at a World Cup.

That's the point. That's why I voted against my heart.

 

[Cold_Boy]

Antohan's team looks better, but of all former United players you picked Barthez and Forlan??!! (vs Scholes, Yorke and Cole)

Anyway, I'm going to vote against my heart. I'm not the biggest Zidane fan, but when he's in a team, it's hard to vote against it.

Same.

 

[Gio]

Man-for-man Antohan takes this but Kps88 has a more balanced unit with a number of "greater-than-the-sum-of-their parts" synergies - Yorke/Cole/Scholes, Pires/Ljungberg, Sergi/Ferrer. And there's clear, complementary partnerships at centre-half, centre-midfield and centre-forward.

My only issue with Antohan's team is I'm not sure where the width is coming from on the left side. Candela, Seedorf and Forlan will cut onto their right feet, further constricting the space available in an already crowded midfield. His spine and right flank are delightful though.

 

[antohan]

Are you calling the Arsenal team that won the double and went an entire season unbeaten "bottlers"?

I was actually going to call them something else but had the good sense to avoid it before I caused some sort of "Uruguayans are all homophobic" incident.

They were productive going forward, no question, but didn't particularly get stuck in (nowhere near as much as Giggs and Beckham would) and I always found their character suspect. Yes, they had a season where they flat-track bullied everything before them but under pressure I always felt they were a bit suspect. My opinion, surely voters will have their own, don't think it si hugely relevant.

You have wide players overlapping with your full backs? I don't see any. If you're talking about Seedorf and Enrique going wide then its unfair to say its 3 against 2 in midfield.

Of course it is fair. I'm not saying they are both wingers, I'm just saying the two players at either end of that central midfield are capable of drifting wide when I'm attacking and working out an opening with the fullbacks, what's unrealistic about that?

Still, in attack I think it will be more a case of Forlán and Luis Enrique exploiting wide spaces. I can easily play 4-3-1-2 (default), 4-3-2-1 (Forlán building up play from a deeper left position), or 4-2-3-1 (Luis Enrique joining them on Zidane's right). They are all top class intelligent footballers who can do that subject to how the game is shaping up.

Your analysis of Cole and Yorke is unnecessarily complicated. At their peak (99) they were unplayable. Its not simply about goal scoring stats, but combination play. They have proven chemistry.

A proven partnership with proven chemistry that jointly averaged 1 goal a game with Beckham in the form of his life. If I'm not mistaken 20% of their goals were Beckham assists, and that doen't take into account how many Beckham crosses resulted in an assist to them. Ljungberg was never anywhere near Beckham's 1999 level.

 

[antohan]

Anto mentioning the goal scoring stats, I'm surprised to see how that Vieri was always injured. He managed an average of 24 league games per season with Atletico, Lazio and Inter. That's 2 of every 3 league game that he took part in. That's besides the point of this thread since injuries don't matter. Just thought it was interesting.

A real shame, it stopped him from getting more top scorer awards and made him miss out on international tournaments. He probably would be an even bigger name otherwise.

The remarkable thing is that a player spending a third of the season injured still managed to average a goal per game, almost three times (24 in 24, 22 in 25 and 24 in 23 ). He was probably fully fit and back in form for about 2/3 of the games he actually did play in!

For me Anto's weaknesses is lack of width and that his team looks fairly slow. The width with result in much fewer crosses and Vieiri was a man that liked to head the ball.

See above. I have two very good attacking fullbacks (one of them used to servicing Vieri!) and they can be supported by Luis Enrique, Seedorf and/or Forlán as and when needed.

In terms of the defensive work, if -say- Pires gets the ball Candela is onto Ljungberg at the other end, Seedorf picks Gattuso, Simeone tracks Scholes and Luis Enrique can support Zanetti tracking Pires, particularly if he starts floating to a central position as kps describes.

Solid pair of center backs with one better than the other, same as Anto.

I would argue Nesta >> Campbell and Montero > Córdoba.

Kps' has the same philosophy as myself. Play like Manchester United. He has the much used 4-4-2 version with Scholes in the middle and a counter part to balance him. Good wingers on either side.

It's a good balanced team, I can't see his Plan B clearly though. I can shift from 4-3-1-2 to 4-3-2-1 seamlessly and, a bit more risky and demanding on my central midfielders, I could go 4-2-3-1.

Weren't you (Mourinho) the one saying with comparable players a 4-4-2 would get beaten 90% of the time? And here I actually think my players are better.

 

[Rood]

head says antohan, heart says kps - it's difficult for me to vote against a team with Scholes, Yorke and Cole

on a side note, I found it a bit bizarre that kps picked Sergi after the group, there were some amazing players on offer

 

[antohan]

I sense some may be underrating Montero massively.

WC2002 qualifiers with him organising the defence: Uruguay conceded the least goals in the South American qualifiers (13 in 18 games, 4 of these in the 3 games he missed making it 9 in 15 games - 0.6 per game).

WC2006 qualifiers with him left out because he was "past it": Uruguay conceded 23 in 8 games (3 per game).

WC2006 qualifiers once recalled to sort out the defence: Uruguay conceded 5 in 10 games (0.5 per game, that's a SIXfold improvement).

A good Tim Vickery article

 

[Red-Indian]

Its hard to look past Antohan's midfield. Width may be a little bit of an issue but there's so much adaptability in there that I wouldn't worry about it.

 

[antohan]

head says antohan, heart says kps - it's difficult for me to vote against a team with Scholes, Yorke and Cole

He should have got Beckham, at that point I would see heart and head being more in tune.

You know what the right vote is

 

[antohan]

Ralaks, will I ever get any feedback from you?

 

[Gio]

I sense some may be underrating Montero massively.

WC2002 qualifiers with him organising the defence: Uruguay conceded the least goals in the South American qualifiers (13 in 18 games, 4 of these in the 3 games he missed making it 9 in 15 games - 0.6 per game).

WC2006 qualifiers with him left out because he was "past it": Uruguay conceded 23 in 8 games (3 per game).

WC2006 qualifiers once recalled to sort out the defence: Uruguay conceded 5 in 10 games (0.5 per game, that's a SIXfold improvement).

A good Tim Vickery article

Cordoba was good as well though. Quick with a superb spring.

Montero's not regarded that highly in the UK - do you reckon that's just a reflection of his hard-man reputation?

 

[Snow]

A real shame, it stopped him from getting more top scorer awards and made him miss out on international tournaments. He probably would be an even bigger name otherwise.

The remarkable thing is that a player spending a third of the season injured still managed to average a goal per game, almost three times (24 in 24, 22 in 25 and 24 in 23 ). He was probably fully fit and back in form for about 2/3 of the games he actually did play in!



See above. I have two very good attacking fullbacks (one of them used to servicing Vieri!) and they can be supported by Luis Enrique, Seedorf and/or Forlán as and when needed.

In terms of the defensive work, if -say- Pires gets the ball Candela is onto Ljungberg at the other end, Seedorf picks Gattuso, Simeone tracks Scholes and Luis Enrique can support Zanetti tracking Pires, particularly if he starts floating to a central position as kps describes.

I would argue Nesta >> Campbell and Montero > Córdoba.

It's a good balanced team, I can't see his Plan B clearly though. I can shift from 4-3-1-2 to 4-3-2-1 seamlessly and, a bit more risky and demanding on my central midfielders, I could go 4-2-3-1.

Weren't you (Mourinho) the one saying with comparable players a 4-4-2 would get beaten 90% of the time? And here I actually think my players are better.

Yes but you aren't playing like that and you won't, now matter how you'd like to paint Forlan. With him and Vieri on the pitch you're playing a 4-4-2.

I did say as well that your players are better.

 

[Snow]

Cordoba was good as well though. Quick with a superb spring.

Montero's not regarded that highly in the UK - do you reckon that's just a reflection of his hard-man reputation?

Thought the English loved that.

 

[Ralaks]

Ralaks, will I ever get any feedback from you?

In short: I'm a big believer in balance in competition like this, that is what swung it in the end for me, even though it was a very close one. It's hard voting against you since you've got a great team, Zidane especially is hard voting against, on another night I could've easily thought otherwise.

 

[antohan]

Cordoba was good as well though. Quick with a superb spring.

Those are his key attributes, he went to ground too easily committing with rash mistimed tackles when he should shield and shepherd the attacker in the wrong direction (rarely did that). That is, more the athletic than the positionally sound and aware defender.

Montero's not regarded that highly in the UK - do you reckon that's just a reflection of his hard-man reputation?

It must be, fans from teams he has played for idolise him (as stated in the main thread, he was even picked in Juventus' All-Time XI!), as do players who have played with him.

Zidane occasionally comes to Uruguay to visit him. When Pessotto attempted suicide he asked for special dispensation from his team and flew all the way from South America to be by his bedside.

That doesn't make him a saint, but it does show the sort of teammate he was. He was a huge influence in the dressing room and every other player knew they could count on his full commitment on and off the pitch.

That's what I want from players: quality, character and leadership. If the rivals think they are cnuts or thugs I couldn't care less, what I care about is the positive attitudes they elicit in those around them.

 

[Snow]

Sort of like Yorke and Cole on the pitch you mean

 

[antohan]

Yes but you aren't playing like that and you won't, now matter how you'd like to paint Forlan. With him and Vieri on the pitch you're playing a 4-4-2.

I did say as well that your players are better.

Forlán played pretty much in the hole as an attacking midfielder/playmaker at the World Cup. Didn't stop him arriving in the box as a forward and scoring when the build-up play came from elsewhere but his positioning wasn't as a frontman.

 

[antohan]

In short: I'm a big believer in balance in competition like this, that is what swung it in the end for me, even though it was a very close one. It's hard voting against you since you've got a great team, Zidane especially is hard voting against, on another night I could've easily thought otherwise.

Mmmm... how/where do you reckon I could improve on that?

You HAVE voted against Zidane every single time!

 

[Snow]

Forlan won't be playing much on the left or going back into his own half. He's a forward after all and he usually doesn't play like he did in the WC. You have to count for his peak and that's at Atletico. If you want to paint him like a winger you won't get positive responses which is why you didn't an opted for the current tactic.

 

[Gio]

Thought the English loved that.

Aye, in fairness the description was euphemistic for reckless liability. Bit of a harsh perception though, Juve have been laden with defensive quality since the early 1980s.

 

[Danny1982]

By the way, people who are afraid Antohan's team doesn't have enough chemistry should not worry about that with Zidane in the middle. He can gel any team together. He's played for three different teams, being the center piece in all three, and led them all to great successes. (Juve, Madrid and France)

 

[antohan]

Sort of like Yorke and Cole on the pitch you mean

I did really like that about them, shame they then went all moody when they started tailing off.

Attitude is what made Keane the beast he was. We were a completely different side without him and it wasn't just his purely footballing contribution, it's the fire in the belly and kick up the arse everyone got from him! Some rivals would choose to call him a thug. I don't think any United fan could give a flying feck about that.

Again, that's what I look for in players. Look at the whole teamsheet and you will find that drive and mentality. And that's somewhat what I was getting at regarding the Arsenal players, no grit, you could monster them out of games through sheer determination.

 

[Snow]

Aye, in fairness the description was euphemistic for reckless liability. Bit of a harsh perception though, Juve have been laden with defensive quality since the early 1980s.

Why didn't you notify the authorities!

 

[antohan]

Forlan won't be playing much on the left or going back into his own half. He's a forward after all and he usually doesn't play like he did in the WC. You have to count for his peak and that's at Atletico. If you want to paint him like a winger you won't get positive responses which is why you didn't an opted for the current tactic.

I'm not painting him as a winger, he isn't one but:

Can he exploit opportunities on the left? Sure he can.

Will his movement take him to other parts of the pitch other than the box? Of course it will.

 

[Ralaks]

Mmmm... how/where do you reckon I could improve on that?

You HAVE voted against Zidane every single time!

I'm not saying you have poor balance, not even sure you could improve your balance much with the players you have at your disposal (don't misunderstand me here, you've got a great team with fantastic players) - not saying you need to either since I'm not sure who you'd meet in the next game. You're argueably up against the team with the best balance and chemistry. What makes his balance so great is his players compliment each other so well partially due to their style but also since they played together a lot.

Honestly had no idea, don't really keep track on my votings, don't mistake it as I got something in for you since I really don't. You argue very well for your case and I think that is what makes for the most interesting games.

 

[antohan]

By the way, people who are afraid Antohan's team doesn't have enough chemistry should not worry about that with Zidane in the middle. He can gel any team together. He's played for three different teams, being the center piece in all three, and led them all to great successes. (Juve, Madrid and France)

Good man, I'll borrow that if I go through

 

[antohan]

Why didn't you notify the authorities!

had to read that three times before I understood what the hell you were going on about

 

[antohan]

Honestly had no idea, don't really keep track on my votings, don't mistake it as I got something in for you since I really don't.

No worries mate, what I was bothered about was getting the thumbs down consistently and having no idea why. Get your point, although you will find most of my team have played with two or three others at some point.

It's only Luis Enrique who hasn't at all and that's to a great extent due to him being more of a 90s player and his loyalty to Barcelona. Putting him down for that would be like putting down Giggs if there were no other United players in the team.