70s Fantasy Draft - Brwned v Cling Bak

[Brwned]

Important note: For the purpose of this competition, these players are considered at the level when they were in their prime.

Brwned

Rustu

Excellent reflexes and very difficult to beat one-on-one, outrageous at times but undeniably a matchwinner on his day. In the all-star WC 2002 team, named the best keeper overall in Europe by Uefa later that year - it was certainly a spectacular peak.

Sagnol

With his dependability in attack and defence, endless energy and a fantastic whipped cross he made his name as one of the best fullbacks around for nearly a decade. A more attacking Gary Neville, essentially.

Hyypia

Part of the best defence in the league right at the beginning and end of his Liverpool career, a leader at the back and quietly dominant. Alongside Rio he forms the cleanest defensive partnership around, at one point going nearly 90 games without a single booking.

Ferdinand

Class. Outstanding in 2008 to the extent some would argue he was our best player.

Zambrotta

Like Sagnol he was nominated for the Ballon D'or in 2006 and there's a good shout that at this point they were the two best fullbacks around. Extremely versatile and well-rounded, a constant attacking threat but always willing and able to get back and more than capable of taking his opposing attacker out of the game completely.

Tacchinardi

Named as one of the Juventus 50 Legends, his influence on that utterly dominant Juve side can't be understated. Provides the energy and bite needed to make this midfield a cohesive unit just as he did for Juve.

Pirlo

An outstanding passer and the outstanding deep-lying playmaker of the draft. Widely considered the best midfielder around circa 07' after being named the third best player in the World Cup, had took Milan to successive CL finals and was voted 5th best player in the world in the Ballon D'or 07.

Valeron

Finished in the top 15 for the Ballon D'or 2002. A magician who would literally walk past player after player at times; with fantastic close control, wonderful imagination and devastatingly incisive passing. He'll of course be providing the ammunition for the two forwards.

Larrson

Nominated for the Ballon D'or 3 times in 4 years between 2000-04, finishing just outside the top 10 twice...it says it all for a player playing in the SPL. Brilliant goalscorer and showed his all-round attacking game and intelligence in his time at Barcelona and United.

Shearer

112 goals in 138 games for Blackburn, no-one needs to be told about this man.

Recoba

Pace, dribbling and a fantastic long range shot. Could play right across the front. Or, as Cling said:

Left. Footed. Thunderbolts.

See for yourself.

Sub: Tudor

Dominant at the back, a reliable part of Juventus' rock solid defence around the turn of the century and an ever-present for Croatia over the course of close to a decade.

Sub: Tudor

Cling Bak

SUB: F.Morientes

Some light reading

Edwin Van der Sar
820 Career appearances
130 International caps
8 League titles
2 Champions Leagues
1 UEFA Cup
Best European Goalkeeper (2): 1995, 2009
PFA Premier League Team of the Year (3): 2006–07, 2008–09, 2010–11
UEFA Euro 2008 Team of the Tournament
UEFA Club Goalkeeper of the Year (1): 2009

Gary Kelly
531 Leeds United appearances (11 PL sesons)
51 International caps
PFA Team Of The Year: 1993-94, 1999-00

Ricardo Carvalho
467 Career appearances
75 International caps
6 League titles
5 Premier Cups (FA/Copa Del/Portugese)
1 Champions League
1 UEFA Cup
Portuguese League Footballer of the Year: 2002–03
UEFA Club Best Defender of the Year: 2003–04
UEFA Team of the Year: 2003–04
UEFA Euro Team of the Tournament: 2004
FIFA World Cup All-Star Team: 2006
Chelsea Players' Player of the Year: 2007–08

Martin Laursen
UEFA Champions League: 2002-03
Serie A: 2003-04
53 International caps
219 Career league appearances

Joan Capdevila
Over 300 La Liga appearances
60 International caps
FIFA World Cup: 2010
UEFA European Football Championship: 2008
Started both WC & EC finals

Edmilson
French League: 2001–02, 2002–03, 2003–04
La Liga: 2004–05, 2005–06
UEFA Champions League: 2005–06
FIFA World Cup: 2002
Started both CL and WC finals

Ze Roberto
84 caps for Brazil
Over 100 league apps for Bayern Munich & Bayer Leverkusen
Fußball-Bundesliga: 2003, 2005, 2006, 2008
La Liga: 1997

Juan Roman Riquelme
Career league appearances: 377, League goals: 92
15 league goals, 2004/05
12 league goals, 2005/06
Argentine Footballer of the Year: 2000, 2001, 2008
South American Footballer of the Year: 2001
La Liga: Don Balón Award (Foreign Player of the Year) 2004–05
FIFA Confederations Cup: Silver Ball 2005
Copa Libertadores: Most Valuable Player 2007

Steve McManaman
Career apps: 579, Goals: 80
142 assists for Liverpool in 364 appearances
PFA Team of the Year: 1995, 1996, 1997 and 1998
Two time Champions League winner, Champions League Final Man of the Match: 2000

Marc Overmars
Career apps: 398, Goals: 78
Netherlands caps: 78, Goals: 17
Four league titles, one Champions League

Thierry Henry
Career apps: 694, Goals: 321, Assists: 166
PFA Team of the Year (6): 2000-01, 2001-02, 2002-03, 2003-04, 2004-05, 2005-06
Premier League Golden Boot (4): 2001–02, 2003–04, 2004–05, 2005–06.
UEFA Team of the Year (5): 2001, 2002, 2003, 2004, 2006
All time France top goalscorer

F.Morientes
573 Career appearances, 204 goals
47 Spain caps, 27 goals
3 League titles
3 Champions Leagues (and final appearances)
UEFA Forward of the Year: 2004
UEFA Champions League: Top Scorer 2004

 

[Brwned]

His main threat is going to be the Riquelme-Henry combination of course but Tacchinardi will know Riquelme inside out from their time at Villareal and Rio and Hyypia will know the same of Henry. That doesn't mean they'll take them out of the game with no problem but at the same time I think there's enough there to nullify them. It was a shame that when Rio was at his peak Henry was very much on the decline because between them it would've been a great battle, but with Hyypia's help there's certainly enough to contain them. 1v1 Zambrotta was an excellent defender and he needs to be up against McManamanamanaman. Riquelme supplying Overmars can be a devastating combination and Sagnol will have his work cut out, but with Rio providing cover it can be contained.

Ze Roberto and Edmilson were decent players but nothing more, there's a good argument for them both being at their best in other positions - Ze Roberto only really excelled as a central midfielder towards the end of his career much like Giggs now, he was very much a left-sided player, and Edmilson was arguably best as a centre back as he was for Brazil in 2002, and the reason in both cases would be because they weren't particularly good passers. For that reason I do believe Tacchinardi can ignore them to an extent and focus on Riquelme, Pirlo and Valeron will be giving his two centre mids so much to worry about going the other way I think their influence will be negligible.

With Shearer occupying Carvalho some damage can certainly be done to the rest of that defence, Capdevila and Laursen were decent players no doubt but with Valeron providing the ammunition for Larsson in between those two there's definitely chances to be found there. On his day Recoba's going to give Kelly an absolute nightmare. Put simply, that defence is porous. Laursen's club peak was at Villa when he was nothing more than a good defender, he simply wasn't cut out for a top club as he showed at Milan. Capdevila and Kelly are two of the least impressive fullback's in the draft, anyone being lured into thinking Capdevila must be pretty good if he was a mainstay of that Spain side should note his only competition was Arbeloa. He was a suspect defender and in a team that has much less possession than Spain - as Cling's team would, being set up for counter-attacking - would be exposed constantly.

 

[antohan]

I've voted these two down before on the back of weaker midfields. This time I see Brwned edging it. Superb back four, more creative midfield and goals upfront.

 

[Snow]

Ze Roberto was definitely more than a decent player but that was on the wing. He was constantly doing business in the CL, both with Bayer and Bayern. That makes Cling's left extremely capable. Overmars and Capdevilla with Roberto next to them.

There's a big difference in defense IMO. I think Henry/Overmars/McManaman/Riquelme is better than Shearer/Recoba/Larsson/Valeron pretty much man for man. Shearer is dealing with CB's who aren't the tallest or physically strongest.

Pirlo is great. He's definitely the best midfielder on the pitch. Valeron and Riquelme never did reach a great peak that their abilities could have reached. Tacchinardi vs Edmilson is fairly similar from what I remember with Juventus and Barcelona.

Back 6 vs front 4. And Cling has the better goalkeeper. I like Cling's shape better. He's got great wingers and I always feel that's potentially more dangerous than what Brwned is giving us. He's got the better team though. His defense is that much better, his central midfield is better and is front 4 are all good players.

 

[FranklyVulgar]

I think Brownd is relying too heavily on his full backs although they are both excellent. Larsson would in theory be a great foil for Shearer but i think Recoba for all his techincal ability was a talent that never was... he had the consistency of an amature chef trying to make tablet.

Henry and Riquelme... Riquelme could boss this and due to my massive soft spot for the man Juan Roman and Henry being the best forward on display (at his peak) i'm going against Brwned! Sorry pal

 

[FranklyVulgar]

Did Brwned vote for himself? is that allowed?

 

[Brwned]

I like Cling's shape better. He's got great wingers and I always feel that's potentially more dangerous than what Brwned is giving us.

Surely Barcelona being such a devastating attacking force have proven otherwise in recent times?

 

[Snow]

Surely Barcelona being such a devastating attacking force have proven otherwise in recent times?

No other team plays like Barcelona. Can't be throwing a team that's build to play like that together since youth level and throw their tactics at a fantasy football. Xavi, Iniesta, Messi, Busquets, Villa would all make that team.

 

[Brwned]

I'm not sure what that's got to do with the price of fish. Barcelona aren't the first team to play with three forwards regardless, Juventus a decade and a half previously played with Ravanelli, Del Piero and Vialli. There's countless examples of successful teams doing so. Larsson played out wide in Barcelona's 433, Recoba played wide left plenty of times. It's a fluid attacking three, a proven system.

 

[Rood]

Clings front 4 is outstanding but Brwned has the stronger defence - which one will prevail?

I think Clings attack will be too strong - Henry/Overmars/McManaman/Riquelme

 

[Brwned]

Certainly the strongest attack I've been up against so far so I'm mulling over the option of bringing on Tudor to sit on Riquelme and give a bit of added protection against Henry-Overmars-McManaman. Would allow Zambrotta and Sagnol to provide a bit more width without being caught out at the back too. Hmm.

 

[Snow]

I'm not sure what that's got to do with the price of fish. Barcelona aren't the first team to play with three forwards regardless, Juventus a decade and a half previously played with Ravanelli, Del Piero and Vialli. There's countless examples of successful teams doing so. Larsson played out wide in Barcelona's 433, Recoba played wide left plenty of times. It's a fluid attacking three, a proven system.

You still mention players much better than what you've got. Larsson might have played there, sure, in the twilight of his career. Recoba is rightly positioned but like you said yourself, he'd be good on his day. He's a bit hit and miss.

Every system we see are proven. You just need the right players to pull it off if you aren't being "conventional".

 

[Brwned]

But you're arguing against the system itself not the players in it! It's the same as you saying 3 centre backs is a fantasy formation...I don't understand your stance on tactics at all. You're saying things don't work that have already been proven to do so.

 

[Snow]

But you're arguing against the system itself not the players in it! It's the same as you saying 3 centre backs is a fantasy formation...I don't understand your stance on tactics at all. You're saying things don't work that have already been proven to do so.

I didn't dismiss your system. I though against what you're playing you're having problems because you lack someone to complete it.

I also said a 3 man defense is a fantasy formation. It's different when you deploy wing backs who are actually full backs. It's no point saying a tactic is good and valid just because it worked in the past. That way I'll just pick a 2-3-5 system because Brazil used it and won the world cup with it! Or 3-3-4. Well, the difference is that those teams weren't playing against a defense of 4 and midfield of 5. Why do you think most teams play that way? Because it's the only chance they'll have to win it.
You'll have to be superior team to go for a basic 4-4-2 and expect to control the midfield against a midfield of 5 who's your equal.

With the likes of Chile. They don't have great defenders. They've got very good attackers. So they play to their strengths. They aren't going to win any tournaments like that though. Neither is Napoli. They are still far off.

I'm sorry. I'm just basing my tactical assumptions of how Manchester United play and what Mourinho has revealed about his tactics in the past. Those 2 are my models really for successful tactics. Not something that was used 10 years ago that wouldn't work today because the game has changed.

 

[Brwned]

The game changes constantly though, tactical trends change all the time and will continue to change. What we're playing now is essentially how Brazil played back in 1970, it's not some new, better setup it's just what's in fashion now. In a few years it'll be another formation, maybe 352 will become the most common again. It just seems that you're saying there's a right way to play, there are certain tactics that are simply better - on their own, no context provided - than others, and I think that's a bit strange. Are you saying that a 3-man defence doesn't work now and won't work again, that it's on its way to becoming an extinct system?

 

[antohan]

Certainly the strongest attack I've been up against so far so I'm mulling over the option of bringing on Tudor to sit on Riquelme and give a bit of added protection against Henry-Overmars-McManaman. Would allow Zambrotta and Sagnol to provide a bit more width without being caught out at the back too. Hmm.

Not a bad idea on paper as you are probably not getting that much oomph from having three forwards on.

BUT, if your fullbacks started pushing forward I think you are giving Cling more chances. I would worry about Sagnol vs. Overmars in particular.

You are comfortably dealing with Henry IMO and, so long as Sagnol and Zambrotta stay disciplined, you should deal with his wingers, no probs. Zambrotta could be a wee bit more adventuorus if Tudor were around but I wouldn't push it.

Midfield reinforcement would help assert yourself in midfield and, frankly, I don't see your three forwards scoring significantly more than just Shearer and Larsson.

Recoba had great free kicks which others can provide and is capable of the unexpected but you have enough creativity already in Valeron and Pirlo. His massive downside is he is an inconsistent fecker, usually a passenger for about 80 minutes. This from a Uruguayan.

You look more attractive now and Tudor on would make you uglier... but effective.

I wouldn't go for your fullbacks becoming wingbacks though. You would be solving the Riquelme problem and giving yourself an even bigger headache.

PS: Mind you, Snow will tell you it is a rubbish diamond and Mourinho would disapprove.

 

[Gio]

I'm not sure what that's got to do with the price of fish. Barcelona aren't the first team to play with three forwards regardless, Juventus a decade and a half previously played with Ravanelli, Del Piero and Vialli. There's countless examples of successful teams doing so. Larsson played out wide in Barcelona's 433, Recoba played wide left plenty of times. It's a fluid attacking three, a proven system.

If I remember rightly Larsson also played occassionally wide right for Sweden earlier on in his international career.

 

[FranklyVulgar]

If I remember rightly Larsson also played occassionally wide right for Sweden earlier on in his international career.

but you would surely say his most effective position was probably just off the striker, he would ideally be pared with another forward. His time up front with Sutton were his best days?

 

[antohan]

Cling Bak will not let off and will take this to the wire. Good man!

 

[Snow]

The game changes constantly though, tactical trends change all the time and will continue to change. What we're playing now is essentially how Brazil played back in 1970, it's not some new, better setup it's just what's in fashion now. In a few years it'll be another formation, maybe 352 will become the most common again. It just seems that you're saying there's a right way to play, there are certain tactics that are simply better - on their own, no context provided - than others, and I think that's a bit strange. Are you saying that a 3-man defence doesn't work now and won't work again, that it's on its way to becoming an extinct system?

I'm not calling anything extinct. Not going that far. But it's quite obvious it's a system that's at most times easy to counter or more teams would be using it. Way easier to find a center back that sticks to his job than there is to find a good winger.

 

[Snow]

but you would surely say his most effective position was probably just off the striker, he would ideally be pared with another forward. His time up front with Sutton was his best days?

Of course. Any Swede and Celtic watcher will tell you that.

It's understandable that he's using him there though. He's got that defense and central midfield to base everything on so naturally wingers and optimal forwards would have been gone when he made his pick. Larsson isn't a bad one at that. It's just that his front 4 isn't as good as the other front 4 but you can't be winning in every area. Otherwise this wouldn't be a competition.

 

[antohan]

I'm not calling anything extinct. Not going that far. But it's quite obvious it's a system that's at most times easy to counter or more teams would be using it. Way easier to find a center back that sticks to his job than there is to find a good winger.

I think you answered yourself there.

Maybe more teams use certain systems because they are more likely to be successful with average personnel. Pack the midfield and you make life hard for your opponent, obviously. But the teams on here have very very good players so I wouldn't go on what we see more often (that's the typical/average team, these are not average teams).

 

[Snow]

I think you answered yourself there.

Maybe more teams use certain systems because they are more likely to be successful with average personnel. Pack the midfield and you make life hard for your opponent, obviously. But the teams on here have very very good players so I wouldn't go on what we see more often (that's the typical/average team, these are not average teams).

I have been saying that in order for certain tactics to be successful you need great people. You're probably more used to seeing these type of formation in use because you watch S-American football. I don't know.

This is going away from the point though and shouldn't be discussed in this thread. I didn't have a go a Brwned's tactics. They are fine. He just needs better forwards to pull it off better. That's all. He still got my vote because his back 4 is probably the best in the competition and in front of it he has Tacchinardi who's as good as most players in his position and next to him Pirlo who's better than most.

 

[antohan]

I have been saying that in order for certain tactics to be successful you need great people.

And we agree there. The next step Brwned and I are gunning for is that all tactics can be effective in certain situations, with the right players of course. You just make blanket statements on certain tactics being useless/fantasies which are a bit OTT, that's all.

 

[antohan]

Anyway, back to the game. A bit disappointed not to have hear Cling's side of the story here.

 

[Snow]

And we agree there. The next step Brwned and I are gunning for is that all tactics can be effective in certain situations, with the right players of course. You just make blanket statements on certain tactics being useless/fantasies which are a bit OTT, that's all.

I don't think I've ever said a tactic is useless. That's certainly OTT. But I stand by my fantasy argument and the lack of certain tactics being implemented in the real world backs up my case I feel.

 

[devilish]

I voted for Brwned team. Less attacking minded but can play better as a unit.

 

[antohan]

Bloody hell, Gio is doing everything right to go through but is being let down here.

As it stands, the draw is taking both through, but Cling hasn't voted for himself.

Brwned needs to make sure he doesn't lose by more than two votes and he's through.

 

[Gio]

Brwned's outstanding defence against Cling Bak's great attack. So it comes down to midfield where I think Brwned takes it - Tacchinardi broadly the same level as Edmilson, Pirlo quite a bit superior to Ze Roberto, while Riquelme edges Valeron at his best. Pirlo's the difference for me. There doesn't seem to be a lot of legs in Cling Bak's midfield - McManaman for instance might make a difference as a fetcher-and-carrier in the centre.

but you would surely say his most effective position was probably just off the striker, he would ideally be pared with another forward. His time up front with Sutton were his best days?

No doubt about it, he was brilliant up top with Sutton or Hartson.

 

[antohan]

Three teams still with all to play for.

Nail-biting stuff, we've had all three teams being out at some point since the polls started yesterday.

 

[Brwned]

Could definitely see this end with the only draw of the competition, harsh on Gio but it'd suit me fine! Davids, yes please.

 

[Rood]

Bloody hell, Gio is doing everything right to go through but is being let down here.

As it stands, the draw is taking both through, but Cling hasn't voted for himself.

Surely a vote for himself should be added in anyway, especially since it could make all the difference? He's usually well up for talking tactics on his team so I can only assume he is away or something.

Shame Cling isnt about as he's got a top player in Morientes sat on his bench who could have given him a different option to try and save the game.

 

[Jayvin]

Simple one for me. Cling has the better attack, but everywhere else it's advantage Brwned.

 

[Cold_Boy]

Real see-saw this.

 

[Enigma_87]

My take is - VDS is clearly superior GK. In defence is tight could go either way, Carvalho is better than Hyypia, Ferdinand better than Laursen, and Brwned full backs I think are marginally better, but all in all the back 5(keepers included are tie imo).

Brwned holding midfielders are clearly better, but not the front four where the difference lies. My vote goes for cling back

 

[antohan]

Surely a vote for himself should be added in anyway, especially since it could make all the difference? He's usually well up for talking tactics on his team so I can only assume he is away or something.

Shame Cling isnt about as he's got a top player in Morientes sat on his bench who could have given him a different option to try and save the game.

Now I remember he had a new arrival in the family recently, must be all the sleepless nights catching up

Yes, his vote should be added since Brwned voted.

 

[Brwned]

My take is - VDS is clearly superior GK. In defence is tight could go either way, Carvalho is better than Hyypia, Ferdinand better than Laursen, and Brwned full backs I think are marginally better, but all in all the back 5(keepers included are tie imo).

Brwned holding midfielders are clearly better, but not the front four where the difference lies. My vote goes for cling back

Marginally better? Come on, you have to give them more credit than that. Two top class fullbacks against two very good fullbacks (which is surely generous to Capdevila), and Hyypia's obviously better than Laursen with Rio better than Carvalho.

Can't argue with anyone voting for Cling because every team in this group is pretty evenly matched, surprised in the 4/5 point swing since this afternoon though!

 

[antohan]

Marginally better? Come on, you have to give them more credit than that. Two top class fullbacks against two very good fullbacks (which is surely generous to Capdevila), and Hyypia's obviously better than Laursen with Rio better than Carvalho.

Yeah, I found the Carvalho > Hyppia but Rio > Laursen a bit disingenious. Both your CBs were better than the comparable one.

Anyhow, congrats to Cling, good result!

As said, a thrilling matchday. Well done everyone, Group of Death lived up to its billing.