4231 or 433?

Walters_19_MuFc

Full Member
Joined
Sep 3, 2013
Messages
30,918
Location
Birmingham
Since ten Hag has arrived, he has been using a 433 shape, very similar to what he used last year at Ajax. This consisted of a holding midfielder (Alvarez), a box to box midfielder (Gravenberch) and an advanced playmaker (Berghuis). The two number 8's would normally push quite high up into the half spaces and leave the single pivot responsible for the build up phase, along with the back four.

Now, ten Hag tried to replicate this with Fred (holding), McTominay (box to box) and Bruno (advanced playmaker), but despite looking quite promising during pre season, it didn't exactly work out in our first two league games.

Now, there's plenty of factors as to why this may have happened, and I believe the reason ten Hag brought in a player like Casemiro was to allow him to replicate the template he used at Ajax last season. However, against Brentford in the second half and yesterday against Liverpool, ten Hag went with a 4231, which was more reminiscent of what we saw in his 18/19 season, with De Jong (deep-lying playmaker) and Schone (ball winner). In my opinion, we always look a lot more solid with a pivot.

Now, I believe we'll chop and change throughout the season because this is what ten Hag did at Ajax, but what would everyone's preference be? Would you prefer to see a 4231 or 433?
 
ETH really plays 2-4-3-1. Or 2-3-3-2.

His central Defenders are obviously helped by the full backs and a DM. But its Easier to identify team shape when viewed as 4 lines instead of 3.

Sounds pedantic but 4 lines adjusts to his attacking/defending/transitional shapes better than 3. Especially for a team that presses high and pins defences in.
 
UnrelatedPsuedo said:
ETH really plays 2-4-3-1. Or 2-3-3-2.

His central Defenders are obviously helped by the full backs and a DM. But its Easier to identify team shape when viewed as 4 lines instead of 3.

Sounds pedantic but 4 lines adjusts to his attacking/defending/transitional shapes better than 3. Especially for a team that presses high and pins defences in.
Click to expand...

Yeah, its fine being technical but if you look at the first two games, we played with downward triangle as opposed to an upward one. My question is, which one do you prefer?
 
4-3-3 but we need another midfielder with Casemiro

3-3-1-3 is also an option if we need to switch it up

------Rashford----Martial----Sancho
------------------------Bruno
-----Fred------Casemiro-----McTominay
--------Martinez----Maguire----Varane

This would be a bit crazy, but imagine quite fun to watch like Bielsa's Leeds at times.
 
Skills said:
4-3-3 but we need another midfielder with Casemiro

3-3-1-3 is also an option if we need to switch it up

------Rashford----Martial----Sancho
------------------------Bruno
-----Fred------Casemiro-----McTominay
--------Martinez----Maguire----Varane

This would be a bit crazy, but imagine quite fun to watch like Bielsa's Leeds at times.
Click to expand...
Maguire ???
 
4-3-3 against most teams, with Casemiro anchoring and Fernandes / Eriksen / Fred ahead of him. Casemiro and the full-backs stay deep when we have the ball, and the two CMs have more freedom to get forward and combine with the front three - think we'll see some tasty football.

In games like yesterday where we're more pragmatic, 4-2-3-1 with Casemiro and Fred anchoring and Fernandes as a number ten in Hollywood mode. We've seen loads of times how devastating this approach can be.
 
Walters_19_MuFc said:
My question is, which one do you prefer?
Click to expand...


Answer :The one that wins most games!

If I have understood your analysis of ETH choice of systems correctly, you are saying that he seems to chose the system he thinks best against specific opposition?
I remember SAF saying something similar ..."I always pick a team I think can win the game" ;)
 
I have a feeling Martial will be key. I can see the way ETH is looking at him, I believe he wants Tony to be the main man up front with two attacking forwards on the sides. In that case we can have 3 man in midfield and attacking fullbacks.

Without Martial we will most likely be playing striker and second striker like Bruno behind. Ronaldo doesn't seem to be capable of, nor interested in holding the ball and bringing others to play, therefore he needs more players around to create for him.

So 4-3-3 with midfielders (Fred+Eriksen) joining attack and Martial leading the line, and traditional 4231 with double (conservative) pivot, Bruno high up the pitch, two wingers and Ronaldo shooting at every occasion.
 
Maticmaker said:
Answer :The one that wins most games!

If I have understood your analysis of ETH choice of systems correctly, you are saying that he seems to chose the system he thinks best against specific opposition?
I remember SAF saying something similar ..."I always pick a team I think can win the game" ;)
Click to expand...

Actually, no. I think he may have underestimated the EPL slightly, and has now realised that we may need a pivot to protect our back four. That may change now we have a specialist in Casmeiro but we were heavily exposed in the first two games, and I believe that wouldn't have happened if we played a 4231.
 
Skills said:
4-3-3 but we need another midfielder with Casemiro

3-3-1-3 is also an option if we need to switch it up

------Rashford----Martial----Sancho
------------------------Bruno
-----Fred------Casemiro-----McTominay
--------Martinez----Maguire----Varane

This would be a bit crazy, but imagine quite fun to watch like Bielsa's Leeds at times.
Click to expand...
This is a bielsa formation alright :lol: Score lots but concede a lot aswell.
 
Walters_19_MuFc said:
Actually, no. I think he may have underestimated the EPL slightly, and has now realised that we may need a pivot to protect our back four. That may change now we have a specialist in Casmeiro but we were heavily exposed in the first two games, and I believe that wouldn't have happened if we played a 4231.
Click to expand...

Nah I disagree, we played a 4231 plenty last year but Fred and McT isn't solid unless you're willing to sit deep and have them both be pure ball winners. Any sort of progressive system exposes both at DM in a double pivot.
 
Walters_19_MuFc said:
Actually, no. I think he may have underestimated the EPL slightly, and has now realised that we may need a pivot to protect our back four. That may change now we have a specialist in Casmeiro but we were heavily exposed in the first two games, and I believe that wouldn't have happened if we played a 4231.
Click to expand...

OK thanks for clearing that up!
 
Walters_19_MuFc said:
Yeah, its fine being technical but if you look at the first two games, we played with downward triangle as opposed to an upward one. My question is, which one do you prefer?
Click to expand...

I don’t think it’s that simple. I think ETH is close to Klopp.Being brave enough to have Both a defensive and attacking shape that sees a theoretical back 4 see both full backs function as wing backs.

To do that, we needed a world class DM. We now have one.

I’d look at that as being 4-3-3. But it’s simplistic. We’ll play 4-3-3 and 4-2-3-1 for the whole season, based on who we play and who we pick. I see them as one and the same. It sounds like you absolutely have a better grasp of both Ajax and Ten Hag so I should defer somewhat.

Varane and Martinez fit, sees a front foot imagining of our shape. Remove Varane and an in form Bailly means we can stay the same. Add Victor or Maguire and that looks tough. Remove Martinez and I worry for the whole strategy. Varane is ‘better’. But he’s more replaceable.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.