40s Draft QF1 : Gio/Theon 9-9 Tuppet | Gio/Theon win on pens!

[Moby]

Team Gio/Theon​

WHY WE WILL WIN:

• Bulletproof defence. Elias Figueroa and Bobby Moore are the standout central defenders in the draft (alongside the Kaiser) and in the top echelon of all time. Voted a record three time South American Footballer of the Year - Figueroa's taming of the great Muller in 1974 is the stuff of legend. Voted in the FIFA All Time World Cup XI as well as the World Team of the Century - Bobby Moore is equally impressive, quelling Eusebio in 1966, Pele in 1970 and making more recoveries of possession than any other player in the history of the World Cup.

• Out wide we should cancel out the threat posed by Tuppet. Anczok and Causio will duel it out and, in all likelihood with similar qualities, cancel each other out. On the other side, Dzajic is a tricky customer who demands special attention. Luckily we have two-time Bulgarian Player of the Year Shalamanov who will stay tight, using his Olympian physicality and dogged resilience in one-on-one situations to mitigate the threat. Importantly both Moore and Figueroa are exceptional at covering should the need ever arise, whilst Clodoaldo, Gerson, Rocha and Deyna provide support from midfield.

• Stronger midfield based on the proven World Cup winning platform of Gerson and Clodoaldo. That partnership dominate every midfield they faced in 1970. With that solid base, we should dictate the ball and will overwhelm Tuppet with the endless creativity boasted by Gerson, Pedro Rocha, Kazi Deyna and Teo Cubillas. The combination play will be too hot to handle - with the ball-playing excellence of Figueroa/Moore in defence, the physicality and energy of the full-backs out wide, and the tailored line-leading fit of Asparuhov, the midfield is supported to control the game.
  
  
• Quality through the spine from front to back should reinforce control. We have a set of outstanding South Americans in Cubillas, Figueroa, Rocha, Gerson and Clodoaldo all amongst the very best the continent has ever produced. From Europe, Kazi Deyna is a shining light, dominating and scoring against not only Benetti's Italy in 1974, but also Lovchev's USSR in 1972, and Melendez's Peru in 1977. Up top Asparuhov is a handful for any defence with his presence, height and fantastic technical ability. Absolutely no weak spots through the spine and strength in key areas will make the difference.

TEAM GIO/THEON

TEAM TUPPET

​

Team Tuppet​

Spoiler: New Editions

In Gerd Muller I’ve added one of the most clinical striker of all time. While his goal-scoring record needs no introduction, its his big game impact that is sometimes overlooked. Muller was without a doubt one of the most decisive player in history. Both his decisiveness and big game mentality is showcased by his record in world cup, where he scored 14 goals in 13 matches, scoring at 1.03 goals per game and 6 of those were decisive goals, culminating in the winning goal in finals vs the great dutch side of Cruyff.

Equally importantly, he fits in perfectly in my team as well. With 3 superlative dribllers in Dzajic, Causio and Rivera making space behind him. These 3 with their vision and creativity, would make horde of chances and as the best finisher in the draft, Muller is ideal striker for my team.

While Rivera and Causio connecting with Muller is pretty mouth watering, I am most excited about Dzajic - Muller combination, most because Dzajic while being one of the best dribblers in the business, he was also a crosser of highest standards.
Here he has Muller to convert the crosses and I don’t care how good opponent’s defense is, this combination is irresistible and would beg at least a goal.

Romeo Bennetti would combine with Rivera, a proven partnership which helped Rosseneri dominate the early 70’s in serie A. Bennetti was a defensive box to box player, like Tardelli, he was aggressive and physical yet provide a fantastic outlet in running with ball in midfield. Following clip shows his attacking game, playing beautiful one two with Causio and providing final cross for Bettega -



Bennetti along with Piazza would make a solid defensive base in my midfield, which would help my attacking players to flourish more and counter the mostly narrow threat from opponents.

Tactics:

A pretty straight forward 4-2-3-1. With Gio/Theon’s midfield I expect them to have more possession (not crazy amount though) and we will play more on counter attack. The pace in my wings, Rivera’s ability to play fantastic balls to my rushing forward and the finisher extraordinaire Muller suits perfectly for my game plan.

Starting with defense, Lovchev would be more adventurous full back, providing overlaps for Dzajic on left side, while Fazlagic would be more cautious on the other flank. Fazlagic was still pretty good at going forward, he would just choose his moments more carefully, which works well with Causio’s strength. At center Sheysternyov would be more aggressive center back, his physical attributes would help a lot in keeping up with the threat of Gundi.

In the midfield, Piazza would be the disciplined defensive midfielder, who would look to maintain shape and keep up with the opponent’s number 10s. His ability to work as a center back would be very helpful for covering my rather adventurous full backs. When one of my full backs go on runs, Piazza would drop deep to make almost 3 at the back, which works very well in this game, as Gio/Theon does not have a proper winger, and most of his threat is central. Bennetti would play his defensive box to box midfielder role, where he would look to break the moves, winning ball higher in the pitch, and either run with the ball himself or pass it to more creative players. His lovely short passing and great engine would be very important for my team to battle with my opponent’s great midfield.

The 3 behind my striker doesn’t need much introduction, all 3 of them legends in their own regard. Rivera would be the main playmaker, spraying the ball around for my fantastic wingers. Rivera was not a static playmaker, he was in the mould of platini/cruyff in that he loved to drop deep to collect the ball and then use his fantastic dribbling ability to drive forward to play final balls or to finish moves himself. While he is more about finesse, he never shrieked from defensive duties. On left I have the legendary left winger Dragan Dzajic, who would play as a wing forward, providing directness and goal threat from left side, he would combine with Muller to either provide him chances or feed off himself from Muller’s hold up game. On the right sideI have Causio, who would play more as wide midfielder, using his fantastic stamina and work rate to cover the right flank. Causio himself a great creative player, fantastic crosser and passer, he provides balance and variety in my attack.

Finally Gerd Muller would do what he does best, that is to put the ball in back of the net. Now, Gio/Theon has a great defense, the best that could be assembled in this draft, and I am sure Figueroa vs Muller clip would be posted soon enough. But I believe that a great attack often breaks a great defense eventually. With the technical ability, creativity and multiple attacking routes in my front four, there would be lots of chances created and all it takes is one half chance, a slight mistake and Muller would punish you.


Few Points:

1. The only criticism I had in the Gio/Theon’s last game is the compatibility of their 3 Attacking midfielders. All of Cubillas, Deyna and Rocha played their best as primary playmakers of their team. I don’t think all 3 of them would work at their best lumped together. They might work, but all the clips and accolades you’d see posted here are when these players played as central attacking midfielders. That is not going to happen here. On the other hand all of my players are playing in their best roles.

2. With no out and out winger, most of the Gio/Theon’s threat is central, with Bennetti - Piazza, my midfield is well set to counter it.

3. Gundi’s biggest strength is his aerial ability, he seem to me a target man type striker, which would have profited a lot from a proper winger pinging crosses in. Without that route, Gio/Theon’s attack is a bit one dimensional and easier to defend against.

4. Finally they have added Gerson in the mix, who again play best as the main playmaker of the team. There are just too many players who work best when they have ball most of the time and not enough ball winners.

 

[Moby]

@Gio
@Theon
@Tuppet

Good luck gentlemen.

 

[Gio]

All of Cubillas, Deyna and Rocha played their best as primary playmakers of their team

This isn't the case:

• Cubillas played alongside Cesar Cueto and, again, they dovetailed beautifully. Fundamentally Cubillas was more of a dynamic support striker than a chin-scratching ball-sprayer.
• Deyna and Tuppet's sub Lubanski often swapped roles for Poland where Deyna would occupy the defence with the all-rounder Lubanski and others attacking from deep. Sure Deyna is a fantastic creator, but he's also versatile and highly effective in different phases of play. Obviously at Legia Warsaw, Deyna was the go-to guy and that club wasn't going to boast the resource to boast 2/3 players of Deyna's calibre.
• We also konw that Gerson excelled in 1970 with Pele in front and Rivelino to his left. That's three dominant types who dovetailed well. It's a similar set-up here, with Gerson, Rocha/Pele in similar roles, and quite similar either side with Cubillas probably a better fit than Rivelino and Jairzinho a more direct threat than Deyna.

If we consider what would be widely considered as the two greatest international teams of all time - Brazil 1970 and Spain 2008-2012 - both packed in lots of creativity. Brazil had Gerson, Pele, Rivelino, and even Tostao, Clodoaldo and Jairzinho could be the general when required. Spain had Xavi, Xabi Alonso, Andres Iniesta and Cesc Fabregas. Again shedloads of dominant playmaking types. Both teams dominated the ball thanks to that exceptional level of collective technical ability and swept all before them. That's what we're aspiring to do here against an admittedly good team and it's worth revisiting this post from the last match thread:

... there are two issues to consider. The first is - are they playing roles that they are suited to? Our view was absolutely. As a slightly deeper playmaker, Pedro Rocha is a natural fit at the hub of things. He spent much of his career playing behind three attackers. Both Cubillas and Deyna are good at operating into the channels, particularly between the full-back and centre-half. Cubillas in particular excelled coming in from the left, or dropping into the left of midfield to pick up the ball, before carrying it dangerously towards goal and unleashing that right peg. The second is - do they work well collectively and with the players behind and in front of them? Our view again was definitely. We wanted to dominate the ball and that trio would enable us to achieve it. Collectively they will feed off each other: lots of synergy with a very complementary line-leader in front of them. Importantly, the three have got very distinct roles: Rocha as the central, deeper playmaker; Deyna floating up and down the inside-right channel, helping to offer transitions going forward; Cubillas a pacier and punchier threat, effectively a left-sided support striker, dynamic and penetrative.

 

[Theon]

LADISLAO MAZURKIEWICZ

Not only is the Uruguayan keeper one of the greatest of all time, but together with Elias Figueroa he won everything the club game could offer in Penarol's legendary vintage of the 1960's. Mazurkiewicz also shone for Uruguay internationally, keeping three clean sheets in the four games en route to the semi-finals in 1970 having kept six in a row for the national team a year earlier. Outstanding again in 1974 when he prevented Holland running up a cricket score against an otherwise ageing Uruguay side.

ELIAS FIGUEROA

The complete defender and widely considered the greatest ever from South America.

Recognition: IFFHS Best South American Defender ever, Best Chilean Player ever, 8th Best South American Player ever, 6 times Best Centre-half in the Americas (1972-77), 4 times Best Centre-Half in the World (1974-77), 3 times Best Player FROM the Americas (1974-76), 2 times World Player of the Year (1975-76), Best Centre-half at 1974 FIFA World Cup, 3 Times Best Player in the Uruguayan League, 2 Times Best Player in the Brazilian League (ahead of Falcao, Zico, Rivelino, etc.), Best Foreign Player in the history of Brazilian Football.

BOBBY MOORE

Unquestionably the greatest defender to ever hail from the British Isles and right up there with Baresi and Beckenabuer as the best the continent has produced, Moore was the complete defender - flawless in possession, fantastic in the tackle and an inspirational leader to boot who was made Captain of England at just 22 years old.

"He was the spirit and the heartbeat of the team. A cool, calculating footballer I could trust with my life. He was the supreme professional, the best I ever worked with. Without him England would never have won the World Cup."
Sir Alf Ramsey


ALEKSANDER SHALAMANOV

^^ Vs Jairzinho and Eusebio

Two-time Bulgarian Footballer of the Year and twice Bulgarian Sportsman of the Year - A World-class athlete, physically imposing and tough to beat one vs one. Also famous for being an all-round sportsman who was part of the skiing team in the 1960 Winter Olympics and part of the volleyball team for the 1964 Summer Olympics.


ZYGMUNT ANCZOK

Voted Polish Player of the Year and chosen for the 1971 World All-Star Team for Lev Yashin's final match - Anczok was classy and dynamic left-back who was inspired by Giacinto Facchetti's swashbuckling style and the only Pole to feature in all matches in the 1972 Olympic winning run.

Superb on his debut for the National Team in a World Cup qualifier win in front of a 107,000 crowd, Anczok produced some fine performances against Brazil and Argentina during a tour of South America and an "amazing" performance against England in July 1966 at the age of 21 - "I played a sensational match, winning the ball all the time, running around Alan Ball in front of me. I played very quickly, had a lot of shots on goal."

May well have been a house hold name had his career not been cruelly cut short by injury in his mid-20's.


CLODOALDO

Holding midfielder whose positional discipline and brilliance on the ball played a key role in Brazil's 1970 World Cup winning vintage. "Hard tackles" were what he considered as one of his main qualities, but his ability to marry steel and silk was what set him apart from the majority of midfield cloggers. This was no better illustrated than his skinning of four Italians in the build-up to Carlos Alberto's famous goal or in driving forward to grab the crucial equaliser in the semi-final against Uruguay.

GÉRSON

Second only to Pele in the best international team of all time, 1970 was a tournament in which Gerson was in complete control - dictating midfields with his customary elegance, vision and range of passing. Man of the match in the final against Facchetti's Italy when he swung the game in Brazil's favour with a barnstorming strike to take the lead midway through the second half.

Most famous for his technical and cerebral quality, his defensive game is somewhat under-appreciated with an aggression and commitment to the tackle not typical of the archetypal deep-lying playmaker.

PEDRO ROCHA

A dynamic and charismatic roaming midfielder, Pedro Rocha is considered one of the best ever to come from Uruguay and was voted the 37th Greatest South American Footballer by the IFFHS. A creative playmaker who featured in four World Cups, winning 8 league titles, 3 Copa Libertadores and 2 World Intercontinental Club Cups with Penarol.

KAZIMIERZ DEYNA

Voted 3rd in the Ballon D'Or in 1974, behind a couple of other blokes called Johan and Franz, (and 6th in 1972 and 1973), Deyna was one of the greatest European players of the 1970s. A household name had he not been born the wrong side of the Iron Curtain, the languid Pole shimmied around opposing midfielders like Zidane and passed like Platini. That meant Deyna often had to show off his talents for the national team, where the silky midfielder rattled in a mightily impressive 42 goals in 97 appearances.

TEO CUBILLAS

Major talent who fired in 10 World Cup goals in 1970 (where he was voted the best young player) and 1978. A dynamic player full of pace and punch, the Peruvian packed plenty of end product, plundering almost 340 goals during his career. A unanimous choice as the greatest Peru player of all time - the architect of their greatest ever team and ranked 17th in the continent - ahead of some real legends like Romario, Falcao, Spencer, Rivelino and Rocha.


GEORGI ASPARUHOV

One of the outstanding centre-forwards of his generation who has been voted as the greatest Bulgarian player of all-time (ahead of Barcelona's Ballon d'Or winning Stoichkov). Brought presence to the front line combing an imposing frame (his 6ft 1' build contributing to his potency in the air) with exceptional technical ability that often saw him dance around the lunges of desperate defenders.

 

[Gio]

3. Gundi’s biggest strength is his aerial ability, he seem to me a target man type striker, which would have profited a lot from a proper winger pinging crosses in. Without that route, Gio/Theon’s attack is a bit one dimensional and easier to defend against.

Assuming Gundi's biggest strength is his aerial ability is a bit like assuming Ibrahimovic's biggest strength is his aerial ability. You're right that he was good in the air, but it was his technique and ability on the ball that made him so sought after in the mid-1960s. He excelled with the ball into feet and his capacity to drop, turn and feed midfield runners was Bergkamp-esque. It was his touch and presence was why we believed he'd be a good fit for the goal-scoring technicians around him.

 

[Tuppet]

Good luck @Gio @Theon

This isn't the case:

• Cubillas played alongside Cesar Cueto and, again, they dovetailed beautifully. Fundamentally Cubillas was more of a dynamic support striker than a chin-scratching ball-sprayer.
• Deyna and Tuppet's sub Lubanski often swapped roles for Poland where Deyna would occupy the defence with the all-rounder Lubanski and others attacking from deep. Sure Deyna is a fantastic creator, but he's also versatile and highly effective in different phases of play. Obviously at Legia Warsaw, Deyna was the go-to guy and that club wasn't going to boast the resource to boast 2/3 players of Deyna's calibre.
• We also konw that Gerson excelled in 1970 with Pele in front and Rivelino to his left. That's three dominant types who dovetailed well. It's a similar set-up here, with Gerson, Rocha/Pele in similar roles, and quite similar either side with Cubillas probably a better fit than Rivelino and Jairzinho a more direct threat than Deyna.

If we consider what would be widely considered as the two greatest international teams of all time - Brazil 1970 and Spain 2008-2012 - both packed in lots of creativity. Brazil had Gerson, Pele, Rivelino, and even Tostao, Clodoaldo and Jairzinho could be the general when required. Spain had Xavi, Xabi Alonso, Andres Iniesta and Cesc Fabregas. Again shedloads of dominant playmaking types. Both teams dominated the ball thanks to that exceptional level of collective technical ability and swept all before them. That's what we're aspiring to do here against an admittedly good team and it's worth revisiting this post from the last match thread:

Let's say they work with each other, it's still a decidedly central attack which is well suited for my 2 defensive minded midfielders. Deyna for example played with Gadocha who used to provide width at the other flank. Also from your description it seem, Pedro Rocha would be a deeper playmaker, how would that stack with Gerson ? Pele - Rivelino played in much advanced positions in 1970 than Rocha would play here, that would cause issues with Gerson's primary role.

 

[Tuppet]

Wilson da silva Piazza

Piazza made his name as the venerable midfield general for Cruzeiro. He spent 13 years at the club where he won 10 Campeonato Mineiros, and in 1976, along with the veteran Brazilian legend Jairzinho, took the team to Libertadores glory. He was known for his physical strength, defense, passing skills, and even the occasional goal. Just look at that picture! Does he look like a player you want to mess with!

On the national team, Piazza made his trade as a central defender and earned the starting central defender role in the 70 team following an injury to the original starter. In 1974, he would also start on the team that would ultimately get a disappointing 4th place.

One of his shining moments was in 1966 in the Taca Brasil final, the equivalent of the Brasileirao at the time. In this final, Cruzeiro faced the greatest team in Brazilian history, the Santos dynasty. Cruzeiro was made up of many youngsters, including Piazza who was 23 at the time. In the first leg at the Mineirao, they demolished Pele's Santos team 6-2. They were up 5-0 at the half! In the return game in Sao Paulo, Cruzeiro were losing 2-0 but were able to score 3 consecutive goals, thus winning 3-2. The late 60s were Cruzeiro's glory days, with other superstars like Dirceu Lopes and Tostão. This incredible Cruzeiro dynasty, with Piazza as its constant, would feature other players in the mid-70s, with Jairzinho and Nelinho. In 1977, he would retire after 13 years at the club

Clubs
1961-1964: Renasença-MG
1964-1977: Cruzeiro-MG (487 games in 112 goals.)

1967-1976: Brazilian National Team (70 and 74 World Cups)
67 caps (52 official), 0 goals.

Club titles
Minas Gerais State League: 1965, 1966, 1967, 1968, 1969, 1972, 1973, 1974, 1975, 1977
Brazilian Cup (Taca Brasil): 1966
Inicio Tournament: 1966
Rio Branco Cup: 1967
FIFA World Cup: 1970
Roca Cup: 1971
Minas Gerais Cup: 1973
Libertadores Cup: 1976

Mexico City's Tournament: 1967

Personal titles:
Bola de Prata (Placar): 1972

Some comments from random Brazilian supporters -

Piazza is one of those players that one loves to have on any team: they fulfill their primary role very well, but they are versatile and can be used elsewhere to great effect (or have an ability not normally associated with someone that plays in their position). Piazza can play DM/CM, or he can be used as a center back, or in a crunch, even as a lateral… and on top of it, he scored tons of goals for Cruzeiro.

Piazza was serviceable as a defender for the national team and a rock in the midfield for Cruzeiro. It's amazing that he was able to score that many goals. 10 a season for a midfielder is very good, and he was great defensively. Man, do we need a guy like him in 2006.

 

[Gio]

Good luck @Gio @Theon


Let's say they work with each other, it's still a decidedly central attack which is well suited for my 2 defensive minded midfielders. Deyna for example played with Gadocha who used to provide width at the other flank. Also from your description it seem, Pedro Rocha would be a deeper playmaker, how would that stack with Gerson ? Pele - Rivelino played in much advanced positions in 1970 than Rocha would play here, that would cause issues with Gerson's primary role.

Certainly there's no pretense that we've got two touchline-hugging wingers. But equally we know wingers are not a prerequisite to success. In fact some of the best teams of all time have played a 'decidedly central attack' - Spain 2008-2012, France 1984, Brazil 1970, France 1998, Italy 2006, Brazil 1982, Brazil 1998/2002, etc.

As for Rocha, in this game he'd effectively take on the same number 10 role as Pele did for Brazil. He's a classic 10 who poses a significant goalscoring threat - in fact scoring three times against his opposite number Wilson Piazza and Brazil in 1967 in both a 2-2 and 1-1 draw.



That looks like him also cracking the bar with a volley from 25 yards.



That also looks like him cracking the bar with a free kick from 30 yards.

 

[Tuppet]

Assuming Gundi's biggest strength is his aerial ability is a bit like assuming Ibrahimovic's biggest strength is his aerial ability. You're right that he was good in the air, but it was his technique and ability on the ball that made him so sought after in the mid-1960s. He excelled with the ball into feet and his capacity to drop, turn and feed midfield runners was Bergkamp-esque. It was his touch and presence was why we believed he'd be a good fit for the goal-scoring technicians around him.

Well I only assumed Asparuhov's aerial ability is important to your team, cause I've seen it mentioned many times, how his physicality is a great foil for your technical attacking midfield. But if he is more like Ibra or Bergkamp, than I would argue its probably even less suitable for your team. With Deyna and Cubillas already playing as second strikers of sort, and Rocha taking pele-esque number 10 role, Asparuhov dropping deep would leave too many players in very similar spots.

 

[Theon]

Wilson da silva Piazza

He's a decent enough player but probably the weakest midfielder on the park - And has a very poor record against Pedro Rocha who rattled three goals past Piazza in 1967.

Likewise - Here is Kazi Deyna running the game against Benetti's Italy, who seemed to be trying to man mark Deyna at times.

Pretty sure it's Benetti himself who Deyna skips past when he scores his goal.

 

[Theon]

Well I only assumed Asparuhov's aerial ability is important to your team, cause I've seen it mentioned many times, how his physicality is a great foil for your technical attacking midfield. But if he is more like Ibra or Bergkamp, than I would argue its probably even less suitable for your team. With Deyna and Cubillas already playing as second strikers of sort, and Rocha taking pele-esque number 10 role, Asparuhov dropping deep would leave too many players in very similar spots.

C'mon Tuppet my boy.

You said - "Gundi’s biggest strength is his aerial ability, he seem to me a target man type striker". Gio is just clarifying that point as it's not an accurate depiction of him at all - His technique was excellent, which isn't surprising given his reputation as Bulgaria's greatest ever (along with Stoichkov).

Elkjaer is who I compared Gundi to in the draft thread, but Ibrahimovic is actually also a very good comparison. He's 6 ft 1, very physical and strong, with a good first touch which he uses to bring others into play - IMO that's pretty much exactly what the team needs. A big battering ram up front who can make things stick, win aerial duels when it's played long and drag defenders away.

 

[Tuppet]

Certainly there's no pretense that we've got two touchline-hugging wingers. But equally we know wingers are not a prerequisite to success. In fact some of the best teams of all time have played a 'decidedly central attack' - Spain 2008-2012, France 1984, Brazil 1970, France 1998, Italy 2006, Brazil 1982, Brazil 1998/2002, etc.

As for Rocha, in this game he'd effectively take on the same number 10 role as Pele did for Brazil. He's a classic 10 who poses a significant goalscoring threat - in fact scoring three times against his opposite number Wilson Piazza and Brazil in 1967 in both a 2-2 and 1-1 draw.

Look I am not saying that touchline hugging wingers are pre-requisite for success in every team, all I am saying is that you can not lump a bunch of great number 10s together and than use their individual stats to project how they would fare in your team. Rocha for example in the game posted above is playing in a very different set up, where he is the main playmaker of the team and all the game flows through him, same with Deyna in Polish Olympic triumph and Cubillas in Peru's Copa Americas.

This might actually work, but it so rarely does. A Netzer / Overath, Veron / Scholes, Mazzola / Rivera scenario is much more frequent.

 

[Tuppet]

C'mon Tuppet my boy.

You said - "Gundi’s biggest strength is his aerial ability, he seem to me a target man type striker". Gio is just clarifying that point as it's not an accurate depiction of him at all - His technique was excellent, which isn't surprising given his reputation as Bulgaria's greatest ever (along with Stoichkov).

Elkjaer is who I compared Gundi to in the draft thread, but Ibrahimovic is actually also a very good comparison. He's 6 ft 1, very physical and strong, with a good first touch which he uses to bring others into play - IMO that's pretty much exactly what the team needs. A big battering ram up front who can make things stick, win aerial duels when it's played long and drag defenders away.

Well I would accept I don't really know much about Gundi, except what you guys have posted. But I would stand by my point, I dont think Ibrahimovic is the ideal striker for your team, with the technical midfield behind the striker, I would much rather have a Drogba or Crespo type striker.

 

[Theon]

Cubillas in Peru's Copa Americas.

I really don't understand why you're lumping Cubillas in with Deyna and Rocha as he was a direct, dribbling, ball carrying midfielder as opposed to a luxury playmaking type. There's nothing wrong with Cubillas in this set up at all.

When it comes to Rocha and Deyna I think it's fine to raise the point (though I don't agree with your conclusion) - But not with Cubillas.

 

[Gio]

It's an easy criticism but one which neglects history. Brazil 1970 brought together 5 number 10s into one cohesive set-up that remains the benchmark for international football:

A Brief History of Tactics - Brazil and the five "10"s

Brazil and the five "10"s

Having won the World Cup in 1958 and 1962, Brazil had been looking to complete a hat-trick in England. Instead, their ageing side was unceremoniously dumped out in the group stage, courtesy of some terrible tackling which went unpunished. They would look to make amends four years later in Mexico.

Going into the tournament Brazil were far from favourites. Poor results and the threat of dropping the untouchable Pele had put an end to the tenure as manager of Joao Saldanha, and into his place came the inexperienced Mario Zagallo. Zagallo had of course played a major part as a player in the development of the 4-3-3, and as a manager he would also be a part of a key tactical moment.

Like Ramsey, Zagallo recognised the need for an anchor in midfield, and also like Ramsey he knew the burden of acting as the sole playmaker was too great for one man. However, Brazil had rather a greater abundance of riches among the playmakers than England. First among them of course was Pele, an inside-left but also the player that defined the role of number ten. Zagallo also had Gerson, a fabulous passer, though less than mobile, who he wished to use as a deep lying playmaker. In addition there was Tostao, a young forward from Cruzeiro, who was also more used to creating goals than scoring them. The key was the players to play around these.

On the left of midfield, Zagallo selected Rivellino, essentially a central playmaker himself, but possessing one of the sweetest left foots in the history of the game. Then on the right they used Jairzinho, himself a creator at club level and possessing blistering pace that would give fullbacks nightmares. The front five players were all essentially creators, and as such became known as the five 10s, in reference to the traditional number for an inside left.

Remarkably the system worked, with each of the players continually moving and occupying the space another had left. Rivellino would frequently drift inside to assist Gerson, who would himself occasionally move to the left. Both Pele and Tostao would come deep in search of the ball, while Jairzinho acted on many occasions as the team’s striker, despite being nominally asked to occupy the right wing. Brazil’s opponents in the 1970 final, Italy, had two sublime playmakers of their own in Rivera and Sandro Mazzola, but took the opposite approach. Each player was given half a game, and it was felt the two could never feature together. How different managers had different approaches.

 

[Gio]

And probably their only challenger for the greatest international team of all - modern era Spain - had an entire midfield and attack - six players - made up of traditional playmakers. They may have lost a Caf draft match, but this XI went on to destroy Italy in the most one-sided final in the history of the Euros.

What is key in all of this is that the supporting cast can execute the overall game plan. So Spain had a team who could play tiki-taka - in the same we way we've got defenders who shine on the ball - and Brazil had an intelligent centre-forward who could link play - in the same way we've got Asparuhov to occupy the defence and bring the midfield into the game.

 

[diarm]

Fascinating match up this one. Love Tuppets attack and Geo/Theon's defence is magnificent. Looking forward to reading through the battle here!

 

[Theon]

And probably their only challenger for the greatest international team of all - modern era Spain - had an entire midfield and attack - six players - made up of traditional playmakers. They may have lost a Caf draft match, but this XI went on to destroy Italy in the most one-sided final in the history of the Euros.

What is key in all of this is that the supporting cast can execute the overall game plan. So Spain had a team who could play tiki-taka - in the same we way we've got defenders who shine on the ball - and Brazil had an intelligent centre-forward who could link play - in the same way we've got Asparuhov to occupy the defence and bring the midfield into the game.

Agree with the above - But it needs to be said that this situation isn't as exteme as either of those, particularly the Spain side which really was a one off in terms of playmakers.

In my opinion the only slight overlap is Kazi Deyna and Pedro Rocha - Cubillas was great on the ball but primarily a direct ball-carrying attacker, often ceding to Cesar Cueto when it came to playmaking.

 

[Tuppet]

As you mentioned @Gio it was remarkable that brazil 70 side worked, and it happened mostly because the greatest player of all time was holding everything together. Even that side had Jairzinho on right who was much more of a winger than any of your attacking midfielders. The Spain side is really a special case, not applicable to most draft sides. That tiki - taka passing and pressing is a far cry for someone like Gerson, who might be classed with Xavi as playmaker, but is a very very different player.

I kinda agree with @Theon that Cubillas was not a silky playmaker, but was rather a Kaka like explosive player, my point of lumping them together was to show that your attacking threat is very central and I have 2 defensive minded midfielders, which works perfectly well against your team. I still believe that it would be hard to get the best of all these players in your set up, but I'd leave it up to the voters to decide.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

If we consider what would be widely considered as the two greatest international teams of all time - Brazil 1970 and Spain 2008-2012 - both packed in lots of creativity.

It's an easy criticism but one which neglects history. Brazil 1970 brought together 5 number 10s into one cohesive set-up that remains the benchmark for international football:

And probably their only challenger for the greatest international team of all - modern era Spain - had an entire midfield and attack - six players - made up of traditional playmakers.

Tbh, I don't think this is a valid comparison at all. Both the 1970 and 2008 sides are pretty much one off and I don't believe they can be replicated with a different set of players. There are just far too many variables that made those sides pretty much unique. And the playing style between those 2 sides in themselves is just totally different. Add in that man-to man both the teams above sport a better creative/attacking players than yours.

Not a criticism of your team here, but just on those comparisons.

I'll still read up on players a bit before making up my mind.

 

[Gio]

Tbh, I don't think this is a valid comparison at all. Both the 1970 and 2008 sides are pretty much one off and I don't believe they can be replicated with a different set of players. There are just far too many variables that made those sides pretty much unique. And the playing style between those 2 sides in themselves is just totally different. Add in that man-to man both the teams above sport a better creative/attacking players than yours.

Not a criticism of your team here, but just on those comparisons.

I'll still read up on players a bit before making up my mind.

Yeah, I absolutely agree. The point was really that this idea that you cannot have more than one playmaker, or that you need wingers to succeed, is completely false.

 

[Gio]

Well let's move on to talk about some of the players on show. What might be useful to consider is how these boys have fared when facing each other in the past.

Chile v West Germany in 1974 - the time when Elias Figueroa tamed Gerd Muller. Not just preventing the legendary goalsmith from hitting the back of the net, but actually taking the piss out of the great man.

 

[Gio]

Poland v Italy in 1974 - Deyna helps to knock Italy out of the World Cup. The capable and committed Romeo Benetti is outclassed by a man-of-the-match performance from Kazi Deyna and is left for dead as Deyna bullets home Italy's second. The silky Pole was on fire that summer in West Germany, creating the 3rd most chances of any player at any World Cup since 1966 (behind Cruyff and Xavi, ahead of Pele and Maradona).

 

[Gio]

Poland v USSR in 1972 - at a time when Eastern European nations coveted the tournament, a place in the Olympics Final is up for grabs. USSR are leading with 10 minutes to go when Deyna skips past the challenge of Tuppet left-back Lovchev to set up the penalty from which he scores the equaliser. Szoltskiy gets a late winner and Poland go on to lift the trophy thanks to a double in the final from Deyna.

 

[Gio]

He's not done it again has he?

Poland defeat Peru 3-1 in a World Cup warm-up in 1977 as Kazi Deyna nets against Julio Melendez's Peru.

 

[Gio]

Gerson and Clodoaldo v Italy in 1970.

This time Tuppet's Rivera is blameless as he is confined to the bench for 81 minutes of the World Cup Final in 1970. And the man ahead of him in the pecking order, Sandro Mazzola, is powerless to prevent Gerson from orchestrating a magnificent 4-1 win. The Italians put up a good fight, and are level midway through the second half, but Gerson decides to take matters into his own hands - almost bursting the net with a 25-yard strike. He's not finished there and tees up Pele and Jairzinho for the third.

But the story isn't finished there. Clodoaldo takes out the entire Italian midfield, including Rivera, as Carlos Alberto delivers the coup de grâce.

 

[harms]

Brutal, I like it

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

mm, strange game.

Gio/Theon have packed their team with play makers from back to front. Figueroa, Gerson, Rocha, Cubillas, Deyna...it does seem a overkill. I do not see all of them at their best here, especially Cubillas and to an extent Deyna. Though Gerson/Clodoaldo will dominate and run this game from the midfield. I don't see Tuppet having the necessary players to stop them here.

On the flip side, Dzagic will come out on top of the tussle with Shalamanov. I see Moore needing to pitch in regularly for support and this is not good especially with Muller there. I certainly see goals in there for Tuppet despite the GOAT CB pairs. Tuppet will also have a relatively freer way upfront through both flanks. Benetti's role will be important to Tuppet.

I see this going Tuppet's way by a slim margin due to better balance in his team. He is better equipped to handle Gio's central threat, that they are to his wide players.

 

[Tuppet]

Top stuff @Gio Don't think I'll be able to match it but I'll try

1. Gerd Muller eliminating Moore's reigning world champions England in world cup 1970 by scoring the winner -


2. Dragan Dzajic doing the same again against Moore and the reigning world champions England in Euro 1968 -


3. Pedro Rocha vs Piazza Brazil vs Uruguay (4-0) -

 

[Tuppet]

Muller doing it one more time against Moore's England. This time eliminating them from Euro 1972 quarter finals -

 

[Chesterlestreet]

Not aimed at what goes on in this particular match, but in general I'm a bit skeptical of posting clips as part of an argument unless said clips actually support said argument: Say you come across a clip which highlights how Player X will exploit Player Y's weakness – that's grand, that's actual proof of what you're claiming. But then we have to be talking about a weakness Player Y suffered from as such, even in his peak years (these are players in their pomp, that's the premise), not a particular moment of weakness in a particular match. Such a moment doesn't become more significant because it happens to occur against a player who happens to be on the other team in a purely hypothetical match featuring players in their pomp.

So a clip in which Player Y simply gets the better of Player Y in a situation or other isn't proof of anything. We're not in the business of reconstructing actual football matches – it's hypothetical, the whole thing. Player X may in theory have been on fire in that match, while Player Y had a shite day at the office. Here, however, the premise is always that no player has a shite day at the office – it's the player in his best incarnation we're supposed to imagine in a hypothetical match.

Just my take on it – and I'm not saying posting illustrative clips is a bad thing, quite to the contrary. But I'd hate for this trend to devolve into pointless oneupmanship where the basic premise of the thing goes out the window.

 

[Gio]

A little bit more on Teo Cubillas and his role here. His job is to attack the channel between Farzlagic and Shesternyov. Both good players and I like Shesternyov a lot, but Cubillas is a hell of a player. 10 goals in 2 World Cups is hugely impressive for a player in his position from his country. At times he was also good for near a goal a game at club level, most notably notching 36 in 38 for Porto, in a career where he plundered over 300 goals. The examples below are typical Cubillas efforts and are very much what we'd want to see him do here.

 

[Gio]

Often there's a misperception out there that Gerson was a luxury playmaker who contributed little defensively. In fact anyone watching Mexico '70 would see that he's far more of an all-rounder than your archetypal deep-lying playmaker. As well as dominating the tournament on the ball - impressive given the summer heat and altitude in the Azteca and in Guadalajara - together with Clodoaldo he was a hard cnut to get past.

Spoiler

That's the well-rounded partnership that dominated 1970 and while Pele's not here, they have a huge upgrade in the centre-halves behind them in Figueroa/Moore v Piazza/Brito. That central defence and central midfield axis - the most important on the park - is as solid and technically adept as is possible in a 40s draft.

 

[Tuppet]

The term "Whole is greater than the sum of parts" gets thrown around a lot, but since I've spent plenty of time arguing that in my opponent's attack the whole is actually less than the sum of the parts, let me talk a little about my team's attack and why I think their perfect synergy would make a difference against the formidable center back partnership of Gio/Theon.

1. The one weakness in Muller's game ? -
Here's Balu's quote on Muller -

If there's one thing that Müller lacked in his game, it's dribbling. It's difficult to say, if he just hated doing it or sucked at it. The truth is, he never even attempted dribbles, he was always a player who loved to connect with his teammates instead through short passing, playing 1-2s.

And to counter this one thing he lacked, My team provides 3 of the most outstanding dribblers in this draft, here is an exhibit -

Spoiler: Franco Causio

Spoiler: Gianni Rivera

Spoiler: Dragan Dzajic

2. Balance on wings - On one side I have the best left wing forward in the draft along with Best, a tricky, direct goal scoring wing wizard in Dzajic.

Dzajic is the Balkan miracle – a real wizard. I’m just sorry he’s not Brazilian because I’ve never seen such a natural footballer - Pele

Euro 1968 launched his status as world class winger. In the semi-final against England, Dzajic scored the winning goal by lobbing the ball over Gordon Banks. Yugoslavia lost the final to Italy, but Dzajic was elected as the player of the tournament. He also ranked third in the Ballon d’Or rankings that year – behind Manchester Unitied’s George Best and Bobby Charlton. Franz Beckenbauer later stated that Dzajic should have won the trophy.

On the other wing I have Causio, a hard working wide midfielder who with his limitless stamina dominates whatever wing he plays in. As I've just mentioned he was a great dribbler and his refined play earned him the nick name of Il Baron. Voted the greatest right side player in Juventus history, and listed in Ballon D'or shortlist 4 times. He is as important a cog in my attack as any other player, his crossing from deep, willingness to run himself to the ground and defensive astuteness, provides a Giggs / Beckham like balanced attack which is extremely hard to defend against.

3. Creativity - While I don't have too many playmakers in my team like Gio/Theon, I believe I have the best one on the pitch. The golden boy Rivera provides the creativity, vision and passing range, on which my goal scorers Muller and Dzajic would thrive. Rivera's ability to pull string all over the pitch, run with the ball and use his silky dribbling ability especially suits Muller, for whom it would be like Netzer - Muller partnership, with Rivera probably even a slight upgrade to the great german playmaker. I can easily see something like this happening -

Spoiler: Muller - Netzer connection

Rivera is a fantastic goal scorer in his own regard, in fact he was the highest goal scorer in Serie A 1972/73 season.

4. Finishing - Gerd Muller.

5. Solid Midfield platform - To support this amazing attack, I have the perfect midfield. Rivera - Benetti is already a proven combination which dominated early 70s serie A. Piazza and Benetti have clear instructions to keep the midfield solid and break opponent's attacks, which works brilliantly for us, since Gio/Theon's attack is mostly central.

6. Targeting opponent's fullback - While Gio/Theon's central defense is amazing, their fullbacks are nothing special comparatively. They are up against two fantastic wingers, which would force the central defense to drift wide to help them. This creates space for Gerd Muller and Rivera, which could be a pretty profitable route to goals for my team.

So there it is, I believe my opponent's attack is a bit more one dimensional and has too many playmakers which is not conducive for them to get the best out of each other. While in my team all the players are playing in their best positions and would combine perfectly to demolish even the best of defenses.

 

[Gol123]

I preferred Gio/Theons team so I voted for them.

 

[Gio]

We are both in agreement that we would have most of the ball. Therefore it is only natural that Tuppet adopts a counter-attacking set-up. But I am unclear on how defence will transition into attack. There isn't a Moore or Figueroa in the Tuppet defence to fizz a long ball up to the feet of the attackers. Nor is there a Gerson in the midfield pair to connect those passes to the forwards. Ultimately there is nobody in the back six who has any real credibility in releasing attacks from deep. As a counter-attacking set-up, it's steady and workmanlike but crucially a little broken. And then, with fragmented or sub-standard service, can Tuppet's attackers be expected to get the better of that defence?

 

[NM]

Went with Gio in a close one. I was very close to going draw and not voting, but I am a sucker for great CBs or FBs and reckon Elias/Moore will swing this

 

[Joga Bonito]

Tbh, I'm not overly convinced on that triumvirate functioning together seamlessly, esp Deyna in that inside right role. He always seemed like an elegant playmaking central midfielder and I honestly don't quite think he is suited to this role, nor do I recall him ever playing in a role akin to it. Cubillas was a dynamic and an explosive forward, but he too was primarily a central player who had the freedom to drift wide/cut inside occasionally. I could have bought him in that inside left role, had there been a more complementary wide presence on the right hand side.

Overall it looks too clogged up in the middle as it stands, esp with Gerson who doesn't seem like the best complement for that attack. I understand that he made it work in the Brazil 1970 side but I just can't quite see the chemistry here that the 1970 Brazil enjoyed, with the interchanging Tostao-Pele or Jairzinho in his natural inside right position, or Rivelino in a slightly unnatural tactical LW role but one that he was able to adapt to, given his quality left peg and the sheer fluidity on offer in that Brazilian vintage. Although I could see the benefits of reuniting Gerson with Clodoaldo, Overath might have been the better choice for this side. Would love to be proven wrong on those points above though.

Even if you could buy that trio functioning together, there are still other aspects which I would like to know more about. Who is going to provide width in that side? The full-backs perhaps, but without much defensive support from the wing-forwards (Cubillas and Deyna weren't lazy but they weren't exactly Boniek or Nedved either), I can't see them getting forward much. Also can't see Clodoaldo venturing from his central area to help out wide, seeing as he already has his hands full with Rivera and Benetti, which leaves the prospect of two deadly dribblers in Dzajic & Causio having their fair share of one v ones against the full-backs.

As it stands I decided to go with Tuppet (although I'm open to changing my vote), because I think he has better balance and imo, Causio-Dzajic will have a good game here. Even then I was pretty close to refraining from voting due to the immesne pairing of Figueroa-Moore against Tuppet's chief goalscoring threat Müller. Both Dzajic and Rivera were decent goalscorers but I think Tuppet could do with a bit more goalscoring threat in addition to Müller.

 

[Gio]

but without much defensive support from the wing-forwards (Cubillas and Deyna weren't lazy but they weren't exactly Boniek or Nedved either)

That's a balanced comment but it's worth highlighting that, although Deyna had that languid air about him, it was quite deceptive body language because he covered a lot of ground and was considered to be the fittest in the Legia squad. I can see him motoring up and down that inside-right channel for the full 90 without too much trouble. Inevitably of course we want to keep him reasonably close to the action where his ability to unlock a defence or score himself can be utilised.

 

[Joga Bonito]

That's a balanced comment but it's worth highlighting that, although Deyna had that languid air about him, it was quite deceptive body language because he covered a lot of ground and was considered to be the fittest in the Legia squad. I can see him motoring up and down that inside-right channel for the full 90 without too much trouble. Inevitably of course we want to keep him reasonably close to the action where his ability to unlock a defence or score himself can be utilised.

Aye, that's fair enough. Just saw that you had Meroni on the bench and his inclusion in the place of Rocha, with Deyna moved centrally, might be better for that attack imo. Any particular reasons for leaving him on the bench?