4 Way Draft - R1: EAP vs Skizzo

With players at their post-30 year old peak, who would win

  • Total voters
    13
  • Poll closed .

Physiocrat

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EAP

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Skizzo

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EAP Tactics:

GOAT GK in Yashin.
Solid Sweeper-Stopper duo in Scirea-Kohler to anchor the defence.
Proper two way fullbacks in Lizarazu & Gerets, solid defensively and will provide with all game long.
.
Hierro as anchor DM. Strong and physical, paired with intelligent positioning and good passing range.
Two footed Junior on his favourte left flank. Proper two way left mid with excellent ball carrying skills and passing range.
Mastero Scholes to dictate the game from the midfield.
.
Messi reprising a role similar to his MSN era.
Finney, the consummate team player, two-footed, versatile as winger and forward, fast with skillful dribbling and ball control to score and assist.
Seeler - Goal scorer par excellence with all round pace and movement to bring the attack together.

Skizzo Tactics

Formation -4-3-3

Solid backline with players all familiar with each other at various stages of their career. All excelled for club and country post-30, and the Great Dane in goal won everything with United post-30.

Pirlo will take up the deep midfield role he excelled in, and look to dictate play and ping the ball around. Makelele will be the workhorse to put the hard yards in and assist with Messi. Nedved takes a free role and has the freedom to get on the ball and probe around the final third. With Gento stretching play, and Benzema being mobile, there will be areas for Nedved to burst into.

Lato will look to cut inside and attack the goal, with Cafu overlapping, and Benzema will be the menace he’s been post-30 and bring his goals and creativity that won him the big awards.
 
Both midfields seem a bit off. Nedved will need to come quite deep and play as an attacking B2B. EAP's midifield lacks legs for me, Scholes and Hierro at this age were quite slow. If EAP had a B2B he could play Scholes at DLP and he'd be golden.
 
Physiocrat said:
Both midfields seem a bit off. Nedved will need to come quite deep and play as an attacking B2B. EAP's midifield lacks legs for me, Scholes and Hierro at this age were quite slow. If EAP had a B2B he could play Scholes at DLP and he'd be golden.
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Nedved will operate high in the middle third. I don’t see much direct pressure on Pirlo to restrict him finding passes through the channels, especially against the slower Hierro and Scholes, so we aren’t reliant on Nedved needing to drop deep into our half to progress the play upfield.
 
Skizzo said:
Nedved will operate high in the middle third. I don’t see much direct pressure on Pirlo to restrict him finding passes through the channels, especially against the slower Hierro and Scholes, so we aren’t reliant on Nedved needing to drop deep into our half to progress the play upfield.
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It's more a positional thing. If Nedved is high it seems to me there will be a bigger than optimal gap between the double pivot Nedved. Again a B2B would have been ideal - bit of a problem though when you are looking at 30+ age wise though.
 
Physiocrat said:
It's more a positional thing. If Nedved is high it seems to me there will be a bigger than optimal gap between the double pivot Nedved. Again a B2B would have been ideal - bit of a problem though when you are looking at 30+ age wise though.
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The pool was relatively slim, especially with Gio drafting rationally as always :lol:

I originally had the plan to set them up

Nedved - Makelele
Pirlo​

but I wanted Makelele deeper and closer to Messi as that’s the greatest threat and without having direct pressure on Pirlo, it gives us a reliable out to progress the ball either to the wings or centrally. Benzema being so mobile and attacking the flanks allows rotation from Nedved and Lato to move into dangerous positions too.
 
Skizzo said:
The pool was relatively slim, especially with Gio drafting rationally as always :lol:

I originally had the plan to set them up

Nedved - Makelele
Pirlo​

but I wanted Makelele deeper and closer to Messi as that’s the greatest threat and without having direct pressure on Pirlo, it gives us a reliable out to progress the ball either to the wings or centrally. Benzema being so mobile and attacking the flanks allows rotation from Nedved and Lato to move into dangerous positions too.
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Given your players the double pivot makes the most sense here. I also think Makelele's mobility will make it more balanced defensively than EAP's.
 
not a fan of either midfield.....makelele and pirlo remind me of mascherano and xabi, even though they cant be more different they overlap each other position wise. Though @Skizzo is probably best possible team to handle Messi, lucky boy.
Hierro and Scholes is a bit meh, either a proper DM(not a fan of Hierro there) or a b2b midfield with Scholes as the deepest midfielder would be much better.
 
Physiocrat said:
Scholes and Hierro at this age were quite slow.
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:confused: 2008 Scholes bossed it around with likes of Carrick and Hargo in the middle. He doesn't really need a a fast partner to be world class!

Even at his prime, Hierro wasn't really known for his speed. Intelligence and positioning were his strengths. Here as a pivot/holding DM he's not really expected to be running more. It's his short passing and ball recycling which will complement the midfield.
 
Edgar Allan Pillow said:
:confused: 2008 Scholes bossed it around with likes of Carrick and Hargo in the middle. He doesn't really need a a fast partner to be world class!

Even at his prime, Hierro wasn't really known for his speed. Intelligence and positioning were his strengths. Here as a pivot/holding DM he's not really expected to be running more. It's his short passing and ball recycling which will complement the midfield.
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It's not just speed but also agility. Also Carrick played like a B2B alongside Scholes in '08. Hargo was also pretty darn mobile when he was fit.

I'm not complaining about Hierro's role in isolation, DM pivot is ideal for him but he needs another pair of legs around him.
 
Physiocrat said:
Also Carrick played like a B2B alongside Scholes in '08.
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I have Junior here as a B2B too.

Have to bring that screamer from 2008 here. Typical of him start the attack, then arrive in late and slot in a screamer. Exactly what will happen here. Junior & Finney will do the running. He will sit back and orchestrate from the middle. Messi will drop to Inside Right anyway, so it's fine if Scholes played a bit deeper moving up late. Hierro will stay back as dedicated DM.

 
Edgar Allan Pillow said:
Perhaps I lost track of the discussion here. Scholes has a B2B in Junior next to him. Why do you see the need for yet another B2B in Hierro's place?
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My view is you need either Scholes or Hierro as the pivot with an additional B2B.

......Junior...B2B
..Scholes/Hierro....

Or a midfield 4 of

Junior...Hierro....Scholes....Finney

You need another body a bit deeper to progress the play well. Having your midfield 3 with the front 3 far forward is just going to make it disjointed. Similar in fact to Skizzo.
 
Physiocrat said:
My view is you need either Scholes or Hierro as the pivot with an additional B2B.

......Junior...B2B
..Scholes/Hierro....

Or a midfield 4 of

Junior...Hierro....Scholes....Finney

You need another body a bit deeper to progress the play well. Having your midfield 3 with the front 3 far forward is just going to make it disjointed. Similar in fact to Skizzo.
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The only team I've seen play in that set up in Pirlo's Milan...and that was purely because Pirlo wanted to play in front of the defence (with Gattuso and Seedorf flanking him). Scholes has no such requirements and there is no necessity to play him as the deepest man. In fact I don't like Scholes as the deepest man as his trademark of arriving late into the box would completely be negated. His playing style is different to that of Pirlo too to shoehorn him into that formation.

In 2008 we did not play Scholes as deepest man with Carrick B2B. Both shared the B2B responsibilities....similar to what he does with Junior here.
 
Edgar Allan Pillow said:
The only team I've seen play in that set up in Pirlo's Milan...and that was purely because Pirlo wanted to play in front of the defence (with Gattuso and Seedorf flanking him). Scholes has no such requirements and there is no necessity to play him as the deepest man. In fact I don't like Scholes as the deepest man as his trademark of arriving late into the box would completely be negated. His playing style is different to that of Pirlo too to shoehorn him into that formation.

In 2008 we did not play Scholes as deepest man with Carrick B2B. Both shared the B2B responsibilities....similar to what he does with Junior here.
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IIRC Pirlo actually advanced a bit from that DLP position with Milan anyway.

You are missing however the main point about mobility, position and linking the play.

I think the best setup for you would have been the midfield 4 I posted above with Finney right. Then Messi could play 2nd striker/10 behind Seeler.
 
Physiocrat said:
IIRC Pirlo actually advanced a bit from that DLP position with Milan anyway.

You are missing however the main point about mobility, position and linking the play.

I think the best setup for you would have been the midfield 4 I posted above with Finney right. Then Messi could play 2nd striker/10 behind Seeler.
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You're arguing that Achilles in a midfield 2 would be more mobile than in a midfield 3. I just can't grasp how.
 
Edgar Allan Pillow said:
You're arguing that Achilles in a midfield 2 would be more mobile than in a midfield 3. I just can't grasp how.
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It's about a combination of "mobility, position and linking the play."

Junior would play as a wide CM/AM rather than an orthodox LM. It is more about dropping Finney deeper giving more options deeper whilst keeping Messi high.
 
Physiocrat said:
It's about a combination of "mobility, position and linking the play."
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Messi naturally will drop to Inside Right. There really wouldn't be too much gap between him and Scholes. You're making Scholes sound like a geriatric here.

Plus Junior is a proper Box to Box who will play the Keane/Carrick role.

Lizarazu and Gerets are good enough to provide width down the flank.

Perhaps we just agree to disagree. Scholes is not Pirlo and I don't believe the deepest players role suits him at all.
 
If you had Makalele instead of Hierro the midfield would be basically fine.
 
Physiocrat said:
If you had Makalele instead of Hierro the midfield would be basically fine.
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That was the plan, before some sob took him ;)

Anyway you are underrating Hierro big time. His peak was actually when he was 29-34 years. Solidly in the timeframe I picked.

That he has declined or somehow because an inferior player is just not true. What you are seeing him here is his peak or close to it.

Solid DM.
 
I agree with Sjor that Skizzo's midfield duo is reminiscent of Alonso-Mascherano, but I actually rated that pairing quite highly and feel the same about this one.

Hierro is a good player for sure, I just think Skizzo has the edge in quality in that area, and Makelele/Nedved can cover more ground.
 
Final thoughts:

- My attack is superior. Seeler is the best CF on the pitch and Messi the best player. Lato was beyond his prime too.
- My defense is also superior.

Midfield as the discussions go is toss up to voters preference, but still a fully functional one.
 
Edgar Allan Pillow said:
That was the plan, before some sob took him ;)

Anyway you are underrating Hierro big time. His peak was actually when he was 29-34 years. Solidly in the timeframe I picked.

That he has declined or somehow because an inferior player is just not true. What you are seeing him here is his peak or close to it.

Solid DM.
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I like Hierro as an individual player, just not with this setup.
 
Voted EAP - two excellent teams. Two terrific defenses would likely make this a narrow 2-1 win for EAP. A few things swayed by voted:

Question mark on the balance of Skizzo's midfield. Would have preferred to see a more natural box-to-box midfielder/or destroyer closer to Pirlo, expecially when Lato and Gento won't be offering much workrate defensively (Pirlo thrived more in a 4-3-2-1 or 3-5-2 setup). Nedved's free-role will likely see him more upfield, instead of a disciplined covering runner which is needed. If Makelele is in a deep double pivot, it's probably alongside a box-to-box midfielder and not a deep-lying playmaker (i.e Vieira/Essien type).

Finney-Seeler-Messi feels like a more natural front three (more creativity, goals and movement). More synergy and ball-playing chemistry with Seeler playing with two all-time wingforwards.

I believe the Hierro-Junior-Scholes trio would carry/keep the ball better, and control the tempo, thus Seeler and Messi would have the possession support and passing triangles they would thrive on. With Skizzo likely playing counter attacking football, you could see an older-Gento at least grabbing a goal (who was still pacey in his 30s), assisted by Benzema (who will be constantly shadowed by Hierro and Kohler for the rest of the game).
 
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Edgar Allan Pillow said:
My attack is superior. Seeler is the best CF on the pitch and Messi the best player. Lato was beyond his prime too.
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Yes, Messi, Seeler and Finney are all special post-30 years players, so you did well to draft all three in line with the evaluation theme.
 
Edgar Allan Pillow said:
Sadly, the jinx continues... :(

Congratulations @Skizzo all round good team. Didn't have anything to pick other than Lato. Replace him and you'll be good for the finals.
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Happily*

unlucky though mate. Your front three and defense were top notch. I’m not thrilled about my balance, but when I couldnt find a decent B2B to let Pirlo sit deep by himself, I mixed it up a bit for Makelele. Glad I did because I think if you got him instead of Hierro then you might have run away with it.
 
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